1/2 BAB: Why?

[Fiery Diamond]

So I've been looking at 3.5 and Pathfinder lately (I'm in a PF campaign at the moment) and I've gotten to thinking: why are the only ones with 1/2 BAB the primary arcane casters? Why do they get shafted in the BAB department while all divine casters get 3/4 at least? (I don't use psionics, so I don't know what those classes have - that's not relevant.)

I assume it has something to do with the spell lists, but I can't for the life of me figure out why a cleric should have 3/4 while a sorcerer has 1/2. I mean - clerics have some damage-dealing spells and they are also able to switch spells around each day, while sorcerers are much more limited. Also, if you look at core classes, the primary arcanes are the only ones with 1/2 BAB - everyone else gets at least 3/4.

[Douglas]

Because the sor/wiz spell list is generally considered more powerful than the cleric or druid lists. Whether that assessment is accurate is up for a long and involved debate, but that's the reason for it.

[Fax Celestis]

Honestly, BAB is not that important in the long run. You could put everyone on 1:1 or 3:4 BAB, and you'd hardly know the difference.

That said, it's left over from 2e, where clerics linebacked in melee and had one of the better attack patterns.

[ArcturusV]

Probably an artifact of third edition, which in term was an artifact of earlier editions of DnD.

Note that Divine Casters were orginally not "Frail nerds with god powers". They were designed as holy men, Clerics were modeled after Knights Templar who waded into melee to smite down foes, and used their magic to patch up their brothers in arms after a fight, or channeled their holy power to strengthen their allies to turn undead.

It wasn't really into third edition that Clerics (And divine casters) really turned into "Spell slingers" so much as they were melee beasts who had a few magic tricks. Even still that tends to be how they're built. It's why they have armor they can cast in, why they have better HD, and why they have better BaB.

Whereas Wizards and Mages were always the "Frail nerds who eventually get all powerful". They always had spells where they didn't need to really "Hit". Chuck a fireball. Or use basic vectors to have a Lightning Bolt fill a room into an electrical death field with every enemy taking multiple hits (Yes, it used to ricochet in earlier editions). They didn't have the BaB because with no armor, no HP, they didn't WANT to get in melee. They tried their damnest to avoid being on the front line and having to swing their dagger/staff at some thug. None of their spells really rolled "To hit" until 3rd edition. And even those are Touch AC which is incredibly easy to hit even with the 1/2 BaB on anything but the swiftest targets.

So it's an artifact of the past and their design choices. Divine Casters (Clerics, Druids) just didn't have these Doomageddon spells back in the day. They were melee beasts who buffed up and healed afterwards. Mages were these guys who said "SAVE ME!" until they reached like 6th level and started rocking everyone's faces off with cosmic powers, which didn't require To Hits.

[Idhan]

If you prefer a more peaceful cleric (or at least less combat-competent), there's the cloistered cleric variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), which has 1/2 BAB.

There's an interesting bit of Anna Komnene's Alexiad where she recounts an encounter between her pal Marianus and a Frankish warrior-priest. (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad10.asp) It's something of a shock to her Byzantine sensibilities, I suppose.

A certain Latin priest who happened to be standing in the stem with twelve other fighting men, saw this, and let fly several arrows against Marianus. Not even then did Marianus surrender, but fought fiercely himself and encouraged his men to do the same, so that three times over the men with the priest had to be replaced, as they were wounded and sore pressed. The priest himself, however, although he had received many blows, and was streaming with his own blood, remained quite fearless. For the rules concerning priests are not the same among the Latins as they are with us ; For we are given the command by the canonical laws and the teaching of the Gospel, " Touch not, taste not, handle not! For thou art consecrated." Whereas the Latin barbarian will simultaneously handle divine things, and wear his shield on his left arm, and hold his spear in his right hand, and at one and the same time he communicates the body and blood of God, and looks murderously and becomes 'a man of blood,' as it says in the psalm of David. For this barbarian race is no less devoted to sacred things than it is to war. And so this man of violence rather than priest, wore his priestly garb at the same time that he handled the oar and had an eye equally to naval or land warfare, fighting simultaneously with the sea and with men. But our rules, as I have just remarked, are derived from the . . . of Aaron and Moses and our first high-priest. After the battle had raged fiercely from the evening till next midday, the Latins surrendered to Marianus, much against their will, after asking and obtaining a promise of immunity.

But that most bellicose priest did not stop fighting, even while the truce was being concluded, but as he had emptied his quiver of darts, he picked up a sling-stone and hurled it at Marianus. The latter protected his head with his shield, but the stone struck the shield and broke it in four pieces and shattered his helmet. And Marianus was overwhelmed by the blow from the stone, and at once fell unconscious, and lay speechless a long time, just as the hero Hector almost gave up the ghost when hit with a stone by Ajax. He recovered with difficulty, and then pulled himself together and by shooting arrows at him, thrice hit the man who had struck him. Yet that polemarch, rather than priest, was not even then sated with fighting, and as he had hurled all the stones he had, he was now utterly unarmed and bereft both of stones and of darts ; so not knowing what to do or how to defend himself against his adversary, he grew impatient, and stormed and raged and twisted himself about like a wild beast ; and directly he saw anything handy he used it. Then he discovered a sack of barley-cakes and began throwing out the barley-cakes from the sack as though they were stones, as if he were officiating and taking a service, and turning war into a sacred celebration. And one barley-cake he picked up, drove it with all his might, aiming at Marianus' face, and hit him on the cheek. So much for that priest and the ship and its crew. The Count of Prebentza, after surrendering himself and his ship and his soldiers to Marianus, immediately followed him. And when they had reached land and were disembarking, that same priest often and repeatedly asked for Marianus and, because he did not know his name, he called him by the colour of his clothes. When he found him, he threw his arms round him and embraced him, whilst saying boastfully, " If you had met me on dry land, many of you would have been killed by my hands." Then he pulled out and gave him a large silver cup worth one hundred and thirty staters. And with these words and this gift he breathed his last.

Any good barbarian/cleric classes? Rage Rabbi?

(I think that the Hospitallers/Templars/Teutonic Knights etc were technically mostly monks, but not very similar to D&D monks.)

[Menzath]

Well Arcane casters generally have the wider selection of ray attacks.
So why do you need BaB when you are making a ranged touch attack, without any iterative attacks?

[ericgrau]

Clerics are meant to fight with a weapon and wizards aren't. And they have buffs to make up for the rest. And 1/2 BAB is low enough that it makes sure ranged touch attacks actually have a chance of missing for most levels.

[Agincourt]

Wizards (and Sorcerers) are plenty powerful with the 1/2 BAB. It's a small handicap, but I see no reason to make them any more powerful. Removing it would make it even easier for arcanists to make melee types useless.

[Spuddles]

Honestly, BAB is not that important in the long run. You could put everyone on 1:1 or 3:4 BAB, and you'd hardly know the difference.

That said, it's left over from 2e, where clerics linebacked in melee and had one of the better attack patterns.

Could you support this assertion with evidence? BAB affects rate of feat requirement fulfillment, number of iteratives, PrC entry, and power attack damage, besides the obvious to hit.

[ericgrau]

I think I figured before that each BAB was roughly 10% more damage. Not 5% like you might think. Because it helps your secondary attacks hit. Plus those with medium BAB tend to lack things like rage so they have an even greater hurdle to overcome. So for example you might go from hitting on 10 sides of the d20 to 11. +10%.

And because fights are usually decided within the first 3 rounds (and finished in 5) and the earlier rounds matter more, blowing a turn on a buff under ~+5 is a net loss. And even a ~+5 or so is only break even; same as a non-caster with your attack bonus who did nothing. Even if you end up higher on paper it's only good for bragging. So it's a difficult hurdle to overcome, requiring things like 24 hour buffs, quicken spell and more buff rounds.

I think people dismiss it because they dismiss numbers in general, and focus more on options. Or thousand damage combos. Not because it isn't a huge chunk of damage. On the flipside even with a lot of tricks full BAB high hp targets make the best polymorph shells, and they have more feats available to combo with. Even if only because they didn't blow them on persist.

[Fax Celestis]

Could you support this assertion with evidence? BAB affects rate of feat requirement fulfillment, number of iteratives, PrC entry, and power attack damage, besides the obvious to hit.

You don't very often get iteratives without pounce. Star Wars Saga did away with iteratives entirely and still did perfectly fine.

And five (or even ten) points of to-hit in higher levels is basically drudge.

Yes, you'll slow down access to a few feats and PrCs (though PrCs with a BAB requirement are few and far between; most use feat requirements), but honestly most of the feats and PrCs with BAB requirements are +1 or +6 (which means 2nd and 8th instead of 1st and 6th).

[Tvtyrant]

The real question is why they get a BaB at all, while a fighter does not get spells. It is one of the wonders of 3.5 that casters are given every single tool of a mundane character just because they exist.

Because a wizard who sits in the back for 20 levels should be as talented with a blade as a level 6 barbarian right? Right?

[SinsI]

The real question is why they get a BaB at all, while a fighter does not get spells. It is one of the wonders of 3.5 that casters are given every single tool of a mundane character just because they exist.

Because a wizard who sits in the back for 20 levels should be as talented with a blade as a level 6 barbarian right? Right?
Talent with a blade is ability to do actual damage with it, not ability to accurately hit. In melee your lvl 20 caster is going to be far worse at it.

Attacks for casters are not "smash him with a pointed stick" but "point a finger at him, so that he is smashed with flying sticks".

BAB is your ability to predict weak places on opponents and the way they will try to evade your attack, if you have been in enough fights to become level 20 you will learn at least some of those things no matter your occupation.

[Menzath]

I think I figured before that each BAB was roughly 10% more damage. Not 5% like you might think. Because it helps your secondary attacks hit. Plus those with medium BAB tend to lack things like rage so they have an even greater hurdle to overcome. So for example you might go from hitting on 10 sides of the d20 to 11. +10%.

And because fights are usually decided within the first 3 rounds (and finished in 5) and the earlier rounds matter more, blowing a turn on a buff under ~+5 is a net loss.



Is that based off melee Vs melee or spell Vs melee for % increase in damage output. cause what wizard attacks with a mundane weapon?

[holywhippet]

If you prefer a more peaceful cleric (or at least less combat-competent), there's the cloistered cleric variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric), which has 1/2 BAB.


There's also the archivist from Heroes of Horror who has 1/2 BAB progression. Although that class is arguably even more broken than the standard cleric.

I think the main reason is that the wizard is supposed to have spent time holed up in a room reading magical tomes rather than learning how to hit things with weapons. Of course, that doesn't explain why the sorcerer, who's magic comes naturally, how the same progression.

[Menzath]

Of course, that doesn't explain why the sorcerer, who's magic comes naturally, how the same progression.

They did not want wizards to feel left out in the 3/4 BaB party.

[Thanatosia]

I think CLeric Armor, HD, and BAB advantages over the Arcane Casters is a legacy influence from previous versions of D&D. Before 3.0, Clerics had a slower spell progression then Wizards (Called "Magic-Users"), and maxed out at lv7 spells - no lv8 or 9 cleric spells.

For some reason when they gave Clerics full Caster progression in 3.0, they didn't scale back the Armor, HD, and BAB like they probably should have IMO. I think they should have probably made 2 different classes - Priest and Cleric, with priest having the full spell progression and wizard like combat, with Cleric having the stunted spell progression but the current combat features.

The real question is why they get a BaB at all, while a fighter does not get spells. It is one of the wonders of 3.5 that casters are given every single tool of a mundane character just because they exist
THe problem with removing BAB progression for casters altogether is that Touch spells and Rays exist, and casters need to be able to hit with them. They don't need full progression, and dont get hit bonuses with their prime attribute because they ignore armor, but they still need to progress at some level.

[Spuddles]

You don't very often get iteratives without pounce. Star Wars Saga did away with iteratives entirely and still did perfectly fine.

And five (or even ten) points of to-hit in higher levels is basically drudge.

Yes, you'll slow down access to a few feats and PrCs (though PrCs with a BAB requirement are few and far between; most use feat requirements), but honestly most of the feats and PrCs with BAB requirements are +1 or +6 (which means 2nd and 8th instead of 1st and 6th).

Full bab gets access to martial feats at 2x speed. And that +10 to hit of overkill? That's 20 damage if you're using power attack.

BAB matters more as you gain levels, as it's one of only a handful of numbers that get tied to HD.

[Menzath]

Full bab gets access to martial feats at 2x speed. And that +10 to hit of overkill? That's 20 damage if you're using power attack.

BAB matters more as you gain levels, as it's one of only a handful of numbers that get tied to HD.

Wait, so my wizard can power attack with disintegrate?

But seriously, unless you are making a gish, were do combat feats for a wizard even matter when your spells do all the "work"?

[holywhippet]

I suppose the other side of the coin is the sacred fist PrC. Full casting (according to RAW) and full BAB progression.

[Idhan]

There's also the archivist from Heroes of Horror who has 1/2 BAB progression. Although that class is arguably even more broken than the standard cleric.

Also true. Archivist also happens to be excerpted from HoH for free by WotC itself, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) for reference.

[chaos_redefined]

Wait, so my wizard can power attack with disintegrate?

But seriously, unless you are making a gish, were do combat feats for a wizard even matter when your spells do all the "work"?

At level 6, elusive target wouldn't be horrible. Of course, the prereqs are a pain.

Clerics, on the other hand, would notice the improvement if they went to full BAB. Means they could get the combat feats sooner, and they wouldn't need to DMM:Persist for divine power.

[TuggyNE]

For some reason when they gave Clerics full Caster progression in 3.0, they didn't scale back the Armor, HD, and BAB like they probably should have IMO. I think they should have probably made 2 different classes - Priest and Cleric, with priest having the full spell progression and wizard like combat, with Cleric having the stunted spell progression but the current combat features.

Under that definition, I would fully support shoving "Cleric" into Paladin, bumping it up perhaps to a 2/3 caster like Bards.

[bekeleven]

Under that definition, I would fully support shoving "Cleric" into Paladin, bumping it up perhaps to a 2/3 caster like Bards.

Give Paladin prepared casting from the cleric spell list and the duskblade spell progression. Lather, rinse, instant tier 3.

[Fax Celestis]

Under that definition, I would fully support shoving "Cleric" into Paladin, bumping it up perhaps to a 2/3 caster like Bards.


Give Paladin prepared casting from the cleric spell list and the duskblade spell progression. Lather, rinse, instant tier 3.

Hey look, guys, I already did that. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181496)

[ericgrau]

Is that based off melee Vs melee or spell Vs melee for % increase in damage output. cause what wizard attacks with a mundane weapon?
Melee vs melee. Though melee tends to do more damage than spells for other reasons. It's more important for medium BAB vs full BAB, and for other attack bonus boosters, since ya at 1/2 BAB you just give up using a weapon.

The extra attack at 6 BAB also makes a good difference in number of hits. Assuming half of attacks are full attacks, it's around +30% damage. But the extras from 11 BAB and up aren't that great, so really it only matters for levels 6 and 7.

[SiuiS]

Verisimilitude. Arcane casters sit on their duffs all day, reading, thinking, muttering (poor physical training) whereas every divine caster spends time in the field, marching, training to defend their faith, with armor and steel, practicing.

[Optimator]

Fluff-wise, Clerics are battle-trained.

[nedz]

Because Wizards are weak and need the buff. Why does a non-combatant even get 1/2 BAB ? Gishes are Ray casters are a bit different, but if a Wizard doesn't ever try to hit any one then why do they improve at all ?

[Bogardan_Mage]

Verisimilitude. Arcane casters sit on their duffs all day, reading, thinking, muttering (poor physical training) whereas every divine caster spends time in the field, marching, training to defend their faith, with armor and steel, practicing.
That's always struck me more as an after the fact explanation of the mechanic than the actual reason. I mean, you might just as well say that divine casters spend the majority of their time in meditation and prayer whereas arcane casters are constantly experimenting and trying new applications for their spells.

[Mystral]

Arcane Casters are not the only ones getting shafted in the BAB departement, but primary casters in general. It seems like a good idea.

Classes that only fight get full BAB
Classes that fight and do other stuff (like cast spells, have many skills or gimmicks) get 3/4 BAB
Classes that are all about doing other stuff get half BAB.

The problem stems from the fact that 'other stuff' is way more powerfull then full BAB.