Gish offense/defense

[Andezzar]

I have some questions about what to do to increase the offensive/defensive potential of a Gish


Would a character benefiting from Bite of the Were-X and Evard's Menacing Tentacles on level up qualify for Multi-Attack
If the above character were of aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant type, would he qualify for Rapidstrike/Improved Rapidstrike?

Luminous Armor and its greater cousin are very good spells especially if used on an Abjurant Champion. How do you avoid/heal the STR damage as an arcane caster?
Besides increasing AC what other defenses are good for a gish? I know the standards like blur and mirror image.
Any suggestion how to ignore/remove the daze effect of the celerity line of spells?
Any suggestions how not to lose access to your spellbook? Dragon Magazine and thus Eidetic Spellcaster is unavailable.

[Xerlith]

1. RAW yes, but you'd lose all benefits from the feat as soon as you've stopped to qualify. Also, benefits of everything that uses it as a prerequisite.
2. Yes, but as above
3. Well, wands of Restoration. UMD is your friend, as is your party's cleric/paladin. Dipping one level in Cloistered Cleric also is a viable option, since it also gives you a free KNowledge Devotion and most probably Travel Devotion.
4. - Two levels of Swiftblade give you 20% concealment, growing up to 50% at 5th level, whenever you are under the effects of Haste.
- Concealment
- DR (mostly /adamantine though)
5. Quick Recovery feat is nice. There was a thread about immunities, but I can't seem to find it.
6. Playing a Sorcerer seems a good start.

[Feint's End]

1. Yes (though clear that up with your dm before .... it's entirely reasonable to say no) ... though you just gain the benefit of the feat as long as you have said attacks (or at least enough for multiattack)

2. Yes (though as before clear that) ... this is the core of the King of Smack Build, which is a Psywar relying on Claws of the Beast and the Rapidstrike feats

3. Dip Binder and Bind Naberius, Take Bind Soulmeld and probably some feat to get more Essentia from and use Strongheart Vest to reduce ability damage, custom item of lesser restoration, roll with it (it's str and the most useless skill for most arcane casters anyways). Note though that sorceros don't get access to it, what seems to be a common misconception.

4. If you are psionic (Which are more durable in most situations) there is a nice little answer to it .... Share Pain + Vigor. Effectively doubles your health and with Vigor you can get 10 extra for every pp you spend. Other than that I think you have a good idea of what makes you more "tanky" (it's actually more about avoiding attacks for arcane gyshs).

5. I assume you mean arcane casters for what I don't have an answer. If you are psionic go into Sanctified Mind and you are set. This PRC can supress all kind of nasty stuff. Also .... argueably IHS, but that always depends on your Dm

[Andezzar]

1. RAW yes, but you'd lose all benefits from the feat as soon as you've stopped to qualify. Also, benefits of everything that uses it as a prerequisite.
2. Yes, but as aboveI assumed as much.

3. Well, wands of Restoration. UMD is your friend, as is your party's cleric/paladin. Dipping one level in Cloistered Cleric also is a viable option, since it also gives you a free KNowledge Devotion and most probably Travel Devotion.Cleric Dip sounds good, now i just have to find a deity with the relevant domains. We play FR.

5. Quick Recovery feat is nice. There was a thread about immunities, but I can't seem to find it.so the DC would be 10+0,5*my caster level+my INT bonus, right?

6. Playing a Sorcerer seems a good start.Nah, I don't want to play a sorcerer.


2. Yes (though as before clear that) ... this is the core of the King of Smack Build, which is a Psywar relying on Claws of the Beast and the Rapidstrike featsI know that one, but I do not want to go psionic.


3. Dip Binder and Bind Naberius, Take Bind Soulmeld and probably some feat to get more Essentia from and use Strongheart Vest to reduce ability damage, custom item of lesser restoration, roll with it (it's str and the most useless skill for most arcane casters anyways). Note though that sorceros don't get access to it, what seems to be a common misconception.Not a problem, as I don't want to play a sorcerer. Unfortunately I cannot lose that much STR because I want to keep Power Attack. Come to think of it, with a native STR of 14 and a +2 STR item I could keep it even with maximum damage. 3 days recovery would be required though without other help.


4. If you are psionic (Which are more durable in most situations) there is a nice little answer to it .... Share Pain + Vigor. Effectively doubles your health and with Vigor you can get 10 extra for every pp you spend. Other than that I think you have a good idea of what makes you more "tanky" (it's actually more about avoiding attacks for arcane gyshs).yeah, I was mainly looking for ways to avoid attacks. So concealment, duplicates and invisibility should cover that. Any other strategies?


5. I assume you mean arcane casters for what I don't have an answer. If you are psionic go into Sanctified Mind and you are set. This PRC can supress all kind of nasty stuff. Also .... argueably IHS, but that always depends on your DmIHS does not help with the daze effect of celerity. 1. you cannot initiate the maneuver because you are dazed. 2. even if you could you would waste a standard action to initiate it, which is (nearly) the same thing as not acting (i.e. losing a move and a standard action.)

[Feint's End]

Alright so for the strength damage you basically have three options as I've mentioned.

1. Dip Binder
Advantage: Gives lots of options and with a feat (improved binding) makes it possible to go a few level anima mage if you want
Disadvantage: Slows Casting Progression

2. Either dip incarnum or take the feat shape soulmeld (strongheart vest)
Advantage: no slowed casting progression, easy to have
Disad.: feat!, needs 1 essentia to reduce damage by 2

3. Customitem
Advantage: not too expensive, use it as often as you want
Disad.: depends on dm

I personally would play and Azurin (or any other race with Essentia) and spend the extra feat on Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest). Invest the 1 essentia you've got into it and there you go .... every ability damage reduced by 2. This is generally a good soulmeld anyways and therefor not just useful for buffing up Luminous Armor

Depending on your build the feat might be too much to ask of. In that case ask your teammates or get a customitem or UMD a wand. You could surely get Lesser Restoration on your spelllist some way.

As for you defense: With Luminous Armor up, mirro images and concealment you should have no problem avoiding most attacks

[Andezzar]

Here's what I had in mind:
The character will start at level 10 or thereabout, LA buy-off is allowed

Draconic Tiefling
Ability Scores (32 point buy):
STR 14
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 18 (+5 from levels)
WIS 10
CHA 8

1: Wizard 1 - Scribe ScrollB, Extend Spell
2: Wizard 2
3: Wizard 3 - Eschew Materials
4: Wizard 4
5: Wizard 5 - Spontaneous Divination ACF
6: Eldritch Knight 1 - Weapon FinesseB, Combat Casting
7: Eldritch Knight 2
8: Eldritch Knight 3
9: Abjurant Champion 1 - Power Attack
10: Abjurant Chamion 2
11: Abjurant Champion 3
12: Abjurant Champion 4 - Persistent Spell
13: Abjurant Champion 5
14: Eldritch Knight 4
15: Eldritch Knight 5 - not sure yet, maybe practiced spellcaster
16: Eldritch Knight 6
17: Eldritch Knight 7
18: Eldritch Knight 8 - not sure yet
19: Eldritch Knight 9
20: Eldritch Knight 10

Ends up with BAB 17, 9th level spell slots and CL 19 (20 with Practiced Spellcaster)

The Eldritch Knight levels, especially levels 4-10 are pretty much filler. Any suggestions what to take instead? What would be good feats for levels 15 and 18?

[Xerlith]

Six levels of Swiftblade. Lose two caster levels, gain godlike abilities.

[Andezzar]

Unfortunately Swiftblade is out. Also no dodge or mobility

[Karnith]

Any suggestions how not to lose access to your spellbook? Dragon Magazine and thus Eidetic Spellcaster is unavailable.
Is tattooing spells (as described in Complete Arcane, pp. 186-187) an option? I usually have my wizards keep at least a few key spells as tattoos in case of emergency.

Cleric Dip sounds good, now i just have to find a deity with the relevant domains. We play FR.
Gwaeron Windstrom (NG god of tracking and rangers), Oghma (N god of knowledge, invention, inspiration, and bards), Sehanine Moonbow (CG elvish deity of a whole bunch of stuff), and Waukeen (N goddess of trade and wealth) all offer the Knowledge and Travel Domains, if you were still looking.

Also, you could swap out one of your Eldritch Knight levels for a level in Spellsword (which you appear to qualify for?). It would be a marginal improvement, but an improvement nonetheless.

[Xerlith]

For Spellsword he would have to have heavy armor proficiency, which he doesn't. For a Spellsword a fighter dip is necessary. Or a Dragonslayer dip. Dragonslayer is good, but becomes available quite late.

[Andezzar]

Is tattooing spells (as described in Complete Arcane, pp. 186-187) an option? I usually have my wizards keep at least a few key spells as tattoos in case of emergency.It would not be forbidden and sounds interesting, but it seems like a lot of bookkeeping to know how many spells fit where and which spells are on the body, and you can't even tattoo the free spells on your body unless I'm mistaken.


Gwaeron Windstrom (NG god of tracking and rangers), Oghma (N god of knowledge, invention, inspiration, and bards), Sehanine Moonbow (CG elvish deity of a whole bunch of stuff), and Waukeen (N goddess of trade and wealth) all offer the Knowledge and Travel Domains, if you were still looking.I found a nice search engine for such things. It'll probably be Oghma.


Also, you could swap out one of your Eldritch Knight levels for a level in Spellsword (which you appear to qualify for?). It would be a marginal improvement, but an improvement nonetheless.I don't, because I am not proficient will all armors and shields.

Thanks for the help everyone.

On a related note, what is the AB for the two natural claws from the draconic template and Evard's Menacing Tentacles?

[Urpriest]

For the Strength damage, Rod of Bodily Restoration (MiC) is cheap and will easily cure enough every day. Plus you don't need a Cleric dip to use it.

Edit:




On a related note, what is the AB for the two natural claws from the draconic template and Evard's Menacing Tentacles?

The same as the AB for any other natural weapon you have. The spell and template don't follow any special formulas.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I have some questions about what to do to increase the offensive/defensive potential of a Gish


Would a character benefiting from Bite of the Were-X and Evard's Menacing Tentacles on level up qualify for Multi-Attack
If the above character were of aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant type, would he qualify for Rapidstrike/Improved Rapidstrike?

Luminous Armor and its greater cousin are very good spells especially if used on an Abjurant Champion. How do you avoid/heal the STR damage as an arcane caster?
Besides increasing AC what other defenses are good for a gish? I know the standards like blur and mirror image.
Any suggestion how to ignore/remove the daze effect of the celerity line of spells?
Any suggestions how not to lose access to your spellbook? Dragon Magazine and thus Eidetic Spellcaster is unavailable.


1. Don't count on it. Unless the spell lasts hours/level or 24-hours or more (Incantatrix or Spelldancer persist tricks), you would most likely not have it active at the time when your characters all gain XP. I honestly don't see the point of getting Multiattack on a gish in the first place, you're better off two-handed power attacking.

2. His normal creature type would need to be of one of those types, unless again you have it switched for hours/level or 24-hours or more. Experience is supposed to be rewarded at the end of a session/adventure, not during combat, and not at any specific in-game time. There's no such thing as, "I'm about to get XP? I'd better cast Polymorph/Bite of the X!"

3. Rod of Bodily Restoration, MIC. Extremely cheap, guaranteed to fix all the Str damage in a single charge, and it gets 3 charges per day. Also remember that the Str damage sacrifice happens when the spell ends, not when it's cast.

4. Persistent Greater Invisibility if you get persistent spell tricks. Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Death Armor and Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Fire Shield twice will seriously discourage opponents from attacking you in melee. Persistent Ray Deflection or especially Persistent Friendly Fire (EoE) will thwart ranged attacks.

5. Quick Recovery feat, Lords of Madness. It lets you spend a move-action to make a Will save at the spell's DC to remove the condition. You still lose a move action, but it's better than being disabled for an entire round. Daze negation from this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) would also be useful.

6. Keep it in a Handy Haversack or a Glove of Storing/Glove of the Master Strategist (GW). Only take it out when you know you're safe. A DM who tries to take away your spellbook is sort of a jerk in general though, it's not something that most characters would need to worry about.

[Andezzar]

The same as the AB for any other natural weapon you have. The spell and template don't follow any special formulas.So barring any other abilities a draconic tiefling would be able to choose whether it is -0 (claw), -0 (claw), -5 (tentacle), -5 tentacle) or the other way around, right?


1. Don't count on it. Unless the spell lasts hours/level or 24-hours or more (Incantatrix or Spelldancer persist tricks), you would most likely not have it active at the time when your characters all gain XP. I honestly don't see the point of getting Multiattack on a gish in the first place, you're better off two-handed power attacking.I have to think about that. It largely depends on how bad the opponent's touch AC is. I'm planning on using Wraithstrike and Power Attack for damage. Adding 2 points to damage per -1 to attack instead of 1 obviously is better, but those iteratives get a cumulative penalty. Four attacks with the penalties above are more likely to all hit than four attacks with -0, -5, -10, -15


2. His normal creature type would need to be of one of those types, unless again you have it switched for hours/level or 24-hours or more. Experience is supposed to be rewarded at the end of a session/adventure, not during combat, and not at any specific in-game time. There's no such thing as, "I'm about to get XP? I'd better cast Polymorph/Bite of the X!"As you can see the above character will not have any of the relevant types unless polymorphed, but for Multi-Attack Bite of the Wererat and/or Evard's Menacing tentacles can be persisted even without shenanigans. And -0, -2, -2, -2, -2 does not sound so bad, even if you only get a maximum of +17 to damage instead of +34


3. Rod of Bodily Restoration, MIC. Extremely cheap, guaranteed to fix all the Str damage in a single charge, and it gets 3 charges per day. Also remember that the Str damage sacrifice happens when the spell ends, not when it's cast.I know it only happens when the spell ends. Thanks to you and Urpriest both. That rod definitely goes on the shopping list.


4. Persistent Greater Invisibility if you get persistent spell tricks. Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Death Armor and Persistent Fell Drain Fell Frighten Fire Shield twice will seriously discourage opponents from attacking you in melee. Persistent Ray Deflection or especially Persistent Friendly Fire (EoE) will thwart ranged attacks.No persist tricks (un)fortunately. Those combos look painful.


6. Keep it in a Handy Haversack or a Glove of Storing/Glove of the Master Strategist (GW). Only take it out when you know you're safe. A DM who tries to take away your spellbook is sort of a jerk in general though, it's not something that most characters would need to worry about.I don't expect the DM to try to take away the spellbook. I just thought a reasonably intelligent wizard would have thought about such things and devised strategies and would not carry it around Warhammer 40k style (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1240865_99060101330_SMTermLibrarianmain_873x627.j pg). Extradimensional storage is a no-brainer.

[Urpriest]

So barring any other abilities a draconic tiefling would be able to choose whether it is -0 (claw), -0 (claw), -5 (tentacle), -5 tentacle) or the other way around, right?

Ah I see what you're asking. Yes, unless specified, all natural attacks can be used as your primary attack.

That said, once your BAB is high enough you'll almost certainly be either adding in weapon attacks, using a mouthpick weapon, or using an unarmed strike if you don't want to give up any attacks at all, in which case that will be your primary.