Prepare for the revolution!

[Deepbluediver]

Ok, so I was reading about aluminum weapons and armor the other day (don't ask why, my brain is very tangled) and I started wondering what sort of technologies or other advancements could be effectively introduced to pre-industrial societies.

So, as a little bit of a game crossed with a thought-experiment, what would your plan be if you suddenly found yourself tossed backward in time? Your destination can be just about anywhere and anywhen you want; medieval Europe is probably most people's first thought, possibly followed by ancient Rome. But if you would rather end up in Asia or some native-American culture, then be my guest.

You've got no tools or other implements- you arrive in the past terminator-like, with only the strength of your hands, the quickness of your mind, and the sum-total of all human knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page). Ok, realistically you should probably only have as much knowledge as a real person is able to memorize, but we'll allow that you might be a very smart person who spent too much time on the internet. Also, you're not worried about screwing up the timeline because you'll probably be dead whenever the future gets around to being ruled by monkeys or whatever. :smallbiggrin:

In order to get moving forward, we'll also make the following assumptions: you're fluent in the local language (how, we don't know, just roll with it). You've made friends with most of the local populous; they are relatively cooperative and won't burn you for witchcraft. You've impressed the local rulers somehow, and they put their resources at your disposal; if it exists, you can probably get it.
Anything else you'll need to invent for yourself. For example, building a train first would require an large-scale refinery to produce all that high grade steel, and the internet first requires computers, which in turn require micro-processors and an electrical distribution network.


So, my question(s) is(are): where do you start? What do you aim for? (it doesn't have to be technological; maybe you want to advance human rights with a cultural revolution) How much can you expect to accomplish in your lifetime? How can you ensure the process will continue after you die of old age or the plague? etc etc etc.

I've got a few of my own answers, but I'd like to see what other people come up with as well; maybe they'll have some stuff I haven't thought of yet.

[Talanic]

Funny. The concept's remarkably similar to the novel I wrote.

For my personal answer, though, because of your mention of aluminum I think I'll use that as my jumping-off point. I wouldn't go that far back - the USA in only the 1850s or so, and I'd be sure to study metallurgy, especially methods of refining aluminum. This would allow me to make an absurd fortune really really quickly. From there I'd jump to steel and railroads, aiming at going at things five years or so before they would normally happen. Until I made my fortune, I'd stay out of politics and international affairs, trying to keep my impact small.

After that, though, social reforms. Things that took 30-100 years to happen. Workers' rights, gender and racial equality. Environmental impact assessments and employee welfare would become something built into American corporate culture rather than reluctantly tacked on with the minimum of effort. Perhaps I would also test my theory on the Civil War - that if Lincoln had just let the South secede, the Confederacy would have been begging to be let back into the Union within a decade.

I think that any time early than the 1800s, it would be prohibitively difficult to acquire materials for any tech I'd like to build. The trade networks either didn't exist or were being disrupted by wars all the time. The downside, of course, is that there would be a lot of people ready to steal my 'inventions' - which might or might not be a good thing.

[Ravens_cry]

You need electricity, and lots of it, to make aluminium. So you'd be introducing the dynamo and generator on an industrial scale long before this happened in real life. This could be interesting. If I was around that time, I'd love to see if I could get Babbage to complete his Analytical Engine instead of constantly trying to improve it.
Going back a large jump back, I'd love to introduce the scientific method to Ancient Rome. I'd also like to try and bring an end to slavery.

[Aedilred]

It partly depends what I was trying to accomplish. If I just wanted to improve the lot of mankind with a relatively low degree of effort I'd probably hop back to the dawn of the industrial revolution and explain to Watt, Newcomen, Trevithick et al about long-term problems with burning fossil fuels and maybe give them some pointers about cleaner energy to compensate them.

If I wanted to conduct a historical experiment, I might have some more fun. There's a general assumption that the industrial revolution was borne out of social changes and so on, because we're all still Whigs at heart, but what if that wasn't the case? What if the first country to attempt industrialisation wasn't a parliamentary republic* but an absolute monarchy, or a "feudal" state? Would it still work (fsdo "work" given the current state of affairs)? Would it in fact be better? How would it be different?

Alternatively, I could head back to the pre-Collapse Bronze Age and infodump them with stuff needed to build on their existing accomplishments and resist the... whatever it was that did for those civilisations. It might just cut out a couple of thousand years of faffing about and lead us down exactly the same path, but it might also take us somewhere totally different.

*Using the classical definition of republic, not the modern one.

[scurv]

If I was to cast aside ethics. And undertake this. First I think I would assess what is already on the plate as for actual tech. There have been some things historically that have been done that took a stupidly long time to catch on and has been reinvented a few times until it did. So I suppose mathematics and morals would be two things i would consider. I suppose If this is going back to the pre-axial I would take advantage of their worldview of cosmic maintenance and see what they could do with a jump start on tech and help focus that world view on environmental maintenance.

[Grinner]

Well...I'd get some clothes first...

Then I'd get down to writing down whatever applicable information I have. Programming isn't likely to be of much use. What little I know of physics and chemistry could be useful. It's mostly niche stuff though, so unless the locals know how to procure rare earth metals, that's out too. Biology's equally useless, since I doubt they have a DNA sequencer on hand.

So I guess that leaves me with thermite and blackpowder guns.

[thubby]

the key here is economy of action. you're 1 person, you can't build a nuclear power plant even if you know the how of it.
so, what tasks can you send others to do that have a basis in things they don't need to understand to accomplish?

I would start with water treatment and basic sanitation. the tools to accomplish a passable sewer and water treatment facility are available in any era.
the medical community could skip hundreds of years of agony if they knew about basic germ theory.
also, the basic workings of the organs of the human body.

a crude printing press would be well within any iron working civilation's abilities.
same with rudimentary steam technology.

I don't know the particulars of how to make tylenol, but knowing that it has something to do with white willow bark would be enough to put some people to figuring it out.

something to keep in mind is that you don't need to know every part of how something works. science and technology spend a lot of time and resources pursuing dead ends. by being able to simply point people in the right direction, you would drastically accelerate the advancement of human knowledge.
i don't know how to make commercial electrical power, but i can build a faraday disk and tell them how that works. they'll figure it out.

[druid91]

Find a willing Natural Philosopher, Write down everything I know. Have them quiz me on questions of theirs so as to extract things I wouldn't think to write down from my memory.

From there, have them help me establish a competing priesthood to the Vatican in medieval Europe. One that provides basic science and combustion engines fueled by wood. Aside from that... Hmm what else do I know that could be of use to medieval Europe...gunpowder? A lot of history, so I'd know where to go and who to find in order to have the most historical dream-team ever.

[Ravens_cry]

Gunpowder was around for a great deal of the Middle Ages, even in Europe.
I think it would be interesting introduce mobile type early in Europe, along with paper making because parchment was just too expensive for mass produced books, being made from animal hides.

[Deepbluediver]

I think that any time early than the 1800s, it would be prohibitively difficult to acquire materials for any tech I'd like to build. The trade networks either didn't exist or were being disrupted by wars all the time.

That was part of my original thought-process: modern humans are almost TOO advanced for anything more than a century ago. You'd have to start out re-inventing everything that we take for granted before you can even get started on the real advanced stuff.


I'd also like to try and bring an end to slavery.
How? Or maybe I should ask: in what capacity? When most people say "slavery" they think of the racial-based slavery you had in North America, but slavery throughout history has had many varied forms, often resulting from prisoners captured in war, and depending on the culture was more like indentured servitude. Then you have something like serfdom in Medieval Europe, which wasn't slavery in name but had quite a few restrictions. I'm not trying to defend it's use, but what you are talking about is quite complex and would probably require a major philosophical shift in thinking.
Where would you start?

As an example of the kind of thinking you might be dealing with, the Magna Carta is hailed as revolutionary for being one of the first attempts to limit the power of kings. But AFAIK, it really only guaranteed certain rights for the nobles; the common man was still pretty much up the creek.


It partly depends what I was trying to accomplish.
Pretty much anything you want. I left this open-ended to see what people would come up with.


Alternatively, I could head back to the pre-Collapse Bronze Age and infodump them with stuff needed to build on their existing accomplishments and resist the... whatever it was that did for those civilizations. It might just cut out a couple of thousand years of faffing about and lead us down exactly the same path, but it might also take us somewhere totally different.
Yeah, if you go back far enough stuff starts to get real basic again- if you're able to find an mine coal you can jumpstart and then possibly bypass much of the iron age. I don't know how much it would change, except for a much more rapid advancement.

As I said, this doesn't have to be solely a European or Mediterranean thing; you might have better luck with the central and south american civilizations. They could work soft metals like gold, but still mostly used wood and stone for weapons. If you are interested in altering history, what would it be like if the indigenous American people's where ready and waiting for the European invasion? Or if they crossed the Atlantic first?


There have been some things historically that have been done that took a stupidly long time to catch on and has been reinvented a few times until it did.
One of the best measurements of how quickly a culture advances is often simply how big it is. Sure, "eureka" moments and new ideas tend to come from lone inventors like Da Vinchi or Newton, but first a society has to be big enough that it generates sufficient excess that those types can afford to sit around and experiment or paint or engineer stuff without contributing in any real meaningful way to produce food, propagating the species, or defending against outside attacks.

Medieval Europe managed to preserve SOME aspects of ancient Roman knowledge, but it wasn't until they linked up with the middle-east that the Renaissance really got going and things started moving forward again. Coming up with some way to either retain or more widely distribute knowledge would probably be a big help to covering a lot of this intermediate periods.


If this is going back to the pre-axial I would take advantage of their worldview of cosmic maintenance and see what they could do with a jump start on tech and help focus that world view on environmental maintenance.
Sounds kind of like you want to found your own Pagan/Earth-mother based religion. The problem with that is those kinds of societies tend to run into trouble when they meet up with the guy who's willing to clearcut a forest to build a fleet of warships or level a mountain to build himself a castle. Any ideas for how you might balance those opposing ideals? Or deal with less ethical opponents?


I'll do more replies later; need to take a break for the moment.

[Flickerdart]

Rome. With improved communication methods, it's possible to have kept a country of that size from degenerating and collapsing, and if the barbarians were introduced to the wonderful amenities a Roman citizen could acquire, they might be less tempted to secede. The printing press will probably be sufficient to buy me some time - spreading Roman writing and cultural texts should do wonders for assimilating conquered peoples. Trains will help move troops and resources, and should be really easy to implement given the Roman love of long, straight roads.

So yeah - zooming around on locomotives, chucking books at barbarians.

Edit: Although now that I think about it, this would work much better if we go back to pre-Bronze Age Collapse. Indus Valley, maybe. Prevent the collapse by mitigating the consequences of the drought that offed them, and then maintain that momentum.

[druid91]

Though, what about the ancient highly advanced Indian civilization that nuked itself into the stone age?

How would they react to all this time travel nonsense?

[Eldariel]

Hm, given a lifetime? Probably Sumeria, let's say about 3000 BC. With a lifetime I should be able to establish metallurgy and eventually electricity. From there on, it'd be a simple matter to establish a flourishing civilization. Of course, gaining power there would take work but with my knowledge from the future I should be able to attain status as some kind of a quasi-deity or wizard or whatever. I would not know how to communicate at first though so that'd be a hurdle to overcome.

[Flickerdart]

Though, what about the ancient highly advanced Indian civilization that nuked itself into the stone age?

How would they react to all this time travel nonsense?
You're probably referring to the Indus Valley Civilization, who didn't nuke themselves anywhere mostly because they had no weapons. If we could hit those guys, jump-start them to our degree of knowledge, and use tech to avoid the various collapses that have happened throughout history, we could be on other stars by now.