[3.5] Let's Build a Hellborn Paladin

[Red Fel]

Hello, friends. It's time for yet another "please help me build X" thread.

Last time, we learned how to build a natural weapon beast of a Dragonborn Warforged Warblade/Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307217). (To those who helped: Again, thank you very much!)

This time, I have a new project. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to help me design a Dragonborn Hellbred Paladin build. The following rules apply:

The character is LG. More emphasis on the G than the L. The alignment is non-negotiable. Classes need not have alignment requirements, but must comply with this alignment restriction. Refluff is possible, but discouraged.
The build must contain at least one level of Paladin. ACFs are permitted. Other classes are permitted as well, assuming they comply with the other listed rules. The build does not need to be Paladin-focused; Paladin need not be the primary class, but there must be at least one level. I am also aware that Paladin is a sub-optimal class; don't care.
He worships Bahamut. Also non-negotiable. So things involving a deity have to take that into consideration.
The setting is 3.5. 3.0 is permitted but discouraged. PF is right out. Yes, even if you can back-convert it. First-party books permitted; all other sources excluded. Homebrew is similarly excluded, even though I have seen some truly awesome paladin homebrew.
Fluff is appreciated. Again, the emphasis is on the G, not the L. The character is a Nice Guy, not the Grand Inquisitor.
Preference for melee style. Casting permitted, but no casting-dominant builds. Alternate power systems (e.g. psionics, maneuvers, incarnum) are also permitted, with an emphasis again placed on melee style.
Additional templates beyond Dragonborn are permitted, but discouraged. Base race is Hellbred, non-negotiable.
No Dark Chaos Shuffle. Just no.
The build can be for any level, 1-20. No epics. More is better than less, if you're willing to help build all the way to 20.

Other points: I am aware that, by RAW, the only Hellbred traits retained under the Dragonborn template, apart from cosmetics, are the ability modifiers (+2 Con, -2 Int for Body, or -2 Con, +2 Cha for Spirit). Also, with regard to Dragonborn aspect, I am deciding between Wings and Mind, and given a Paladin's armor style, leaning towards Mind. Advice with regard to any of these options is appreciated.

As always, any advice, suggestions, or critiques are welcomed. If you do post some advice, please offer explanations, so that I can better understand and respond to your suggestions.

What follows is a brief synopsis of the character background, for flavor purposes. If there is interest, I may share a more detailed history.
The character, in his prior life, was an absolute monster of a man, a ruthless warlord and a cultist of Asmodeus. Through intrigue, assassination and all-out war, he carved out a kingdom for himself, which he ruled with a tyrannical iron fist. On his deathbed, however, he had a revelation about how fleeting his work was, and how noble was the despair of a woman whose son had been killed by his soldiers. Despairing, he resolved to atone for his sins.

Then he died and went to Hell.

Then he became Hellborn, losing all memory of who he was but remembering that he was pitted for Hell when he died again. And he didn't care; he knew that he must have been wicked to earn that fate, so he wasn't going to seek to avoid his just punishment. He decided to be a truly good person, not to avoid Hell, but because it was needed. It was only right, he thought, to pursue goodness, in order to offset whatever evil he had done in his past life.

And then he became Dragonborn, because Bahamut is like that, and now he has the chance to really do good. And apart from still being Lawful, he is basically the polar opposite of who he was - generous, caring, compassionate, warm, and friend to all children. A Nice Guy.

Also something about Asmodeus being more than slightly peeved at this blatant violation of the Pact Primeval.

The build itself is here. It's still missing some items, as you can see, so suggestions are welcomed and appreciated!
Surprise! Due to some truly exceptional suggestions, I'm putting in not one, but TWO builds!

Build #1: Needs More Refluff!
Very simply, this build is almost perfect. Almost, except for one thing: The classes involved have certain fluff requirements that the character does not meet. (Ordained Champion requires Hextor or Heironeous, and Fist of Raziel requires Servant of the Heavens, which means swearing fealty to the Tome Archons (who are not Bahamut).)

However, if we can refluff those details, we get something awesome - something that looks like this!

{table=head]{colsp=8}Features||{colsp=10}Spells per Day

Level|Classes|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|Special|Feat||
0|
1|
2|
3|
4|
5|
6|
7|
8|
9

1|Cleric 1|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Aura, Turn Undead|Weapon Focus (Scimitar)||
3|
1+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

2|Cleric 2|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3||||
4|
2+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

3|Cleric 3|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3||Initiate of Bahamut||
4|
2+1|
1+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

4|Cleric 4|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4||||
5|
3+1|
2+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

5|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 1|
+4|
+6|
+1|
+6|Bonus Domain, Combat Feats, Continued Advancement, Modified Spontaneous Casting|||
5|
3+1|
2+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

6|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 2|
+5|
+7|
+1|
+7|Diehard, Smite|Power Attack||
5|
3+1|
2+1|
1+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

7|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 3|
+6|
+7|
+2|
+7|Channel Spell, Divine Bulwark|||
5|
3+1|
3+1|
2+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

8|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 4|
+7|
+8|
+2|
+8|Fist of the Gods, Rapid Spontaneous Casting|||
5|
3+1|
3+1|
2+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

9|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5|
+8|
+8|
+2|
+8|Holy Warrior, War Caster|Servant of the Heavens||
6|
4+1|
3+1|
2+1|
1+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

10|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 1|
+9|
+10|
+2|
+8|Magic Circle, Smite Evil 1/day (good-aligned)|||
6|
4+1|
3+1|
2+1|
1+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

11|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 2|
+10|
+11|
+2|
+8||||
6|
4+1|
3+1|
3+1|
2+1|
-|
-|
-|
-|
-

12|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 3|
+11|
+11|
+3|
+9|Smite Evil 2/day (confirming)|Mounted Combat||
6|
4+1|
4+1|
3+1|
2+1|
1+1|
-|
-|
-|
-

13|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 3/ Prestige Paladin 1|
+12|
+13|
+3|
+9|Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day, Turn Undead|||
6|
4+1|
4+1|
3+1|
3+1|
2+1|
-|
-|
-|
-

14|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 4/ Prestige Paladin 1|
+13|
+14|
+3|
+9|Sanctify Martial Strike|||
6|
5+1|
4+1|
4+1|
3+1|
2+1|
1+1|
-|
-|
-

15|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 5/ Prestige Paladin 1|
+14|
+14|
+3|
+9|Smite Evil 3/day (holy)|Awesome Smite||
6|
5+1|
4+1|
4+1|
3+1|
3+1|
2+1|
-|
-|
-

16|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 6/ Prestige Paladin 1|
+15|
+15|
+4|
+10|Sunder Evil Item|||
6|
5+1|
5+1|
4+1|
4+1|
3+1|
2+1|
1+1|
-|
-

17|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 7/ Prestige Paladin 1|
+16|
+15|
+4|
+10|Smite Evil 4/day (fiendsmite)|||
6|
5+1|
5+1|
4+1|
4+1|
3+1|
3+1|
2+1|
-|
-

18|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 8/ Prestige Paladin 1|
+17|
+16|
+4|
+10||Feat||
6|
5+1|
5+1|
5+1|
4+1|
4+1|
3+1|
2+1|
1+1|
-

19|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 9/ Prestige Paladin 1|
+18|
+16|
+5|
+11|Smite Evil 5/day (chain)|||
6|
5+1|
5+1|
5+1|
4+1|
4+1|
3+1|
3+1|
2+1|
-

20|Cleric 4/ Ordained Champion 5/ Fist of Raziel 10/ Prestige Paladin 1|
+19|
+17|
+5|
+11|Holy Martial Strike|||
6|
5+1|
5+1|
5+1|
5+1|
4+1|
4+1|
3+1|
2+1|
1+1[/table]

Because heavy armor interferes with wings, and using a breath weapon distracts from the fun smiting to be had, this build uses the Dragonborn Mind aspect. The Hellbred Spirit aspect provides a net ability modifier of -2 Dex, +2 Cha. Despite being built on a Cleric base, it plays more like a paladin, using Smites and other fun tricks to inflict much pain.

Ordained Champion has to be refluffed to follow Bahamut. Towards that end, most likely, the War domain bonuses should be modified to either Good or Protection domains, since those are both Bahamut's bailiwick.

Fist of Raziel needs a much smaller refluff - it requires loyalty to the Tome Archons, but since both they and Bahamut inhabit Celestia, it's really no difficulty to refluff the class (and the Servant of the Heavens prereq feat) to constitute loyalty to Bahamut instead.

Note also that the Prestige Paladin dip adds Paladin spells to my Cleric list, which can be pretty darn spiffy. The Turn Undead in Prestige Paladin doesn't actually give me a separate source of Turn Undead, but rather stacks with my Cleric levels for Turn Undead purposes.

By level 19, I have 8 uses of Smite Evil per day, five from Fist of Raziel and one from Prestige Paladin, plus two more from Initiate of Bahamut, all of which use my Fist of Raziel boosts. In addition, I can convert Turn Undead uses into Smite uses through Ordained Champion, and those use my Fist of Raziel boosts as well.


Build #2: No Assembly Required!
Sometimes, a refluff simply isn't available. When that happens, you need a class that works right out of the box. Thankfully, you've delivered! Behold!

{table=head]{colsp=8}Features||{colsp=4}Spells per Day

Level|Classes|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|Special|Feat||
1|
2|
3|
4

1|Paladin 1|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day|Power Attack||
-|
-|
-|
-

2|Paladin 2|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|||
-|
-|
-|
-

3|Paladin 3|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Aura of Courage, Divine Health|Feat||
-|
-|
-|
-

4|Paladin 4|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Turn Undead|||
0|
-|
-|
-

5|Paladin 5|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Smite Evil 2/day, Charging Smite*|||
0|
-|
-|
-

6|Paladin 6|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+2|Remove Curse 1/week**|Battle Blessing||
1|
-|
-|
-

7|Paladin 7|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+2||||
1|
-|
-|
-

8|Paladin 8|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+2||||
1|
0|
-|
-

9|Paladin 9|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+3|Remove Curse 2/week**|Awesome Smite||
1|
0|
-|
-

10|Paladin 10|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+3|Smite Evil 3/day|||
1|
1|
-|
-

11|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 1|
+11|
+7|
+3|
+5|Holy Fury, Furious Strike +2/+1d6|||
1|
1|
-|
-

12|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 2|
+12|
+7|
+3|
+6|Divine Succor (10 points)|Feat||
1|
1|
-|
-

13|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 3|
+13|
+8|
+4|
+6|Divine Resolve, Divine Shield|||
1|
1|
-|
-

14|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 4|
+14|
+8|
+4|
+7|Furious Strike +4/+2d6, Mettle|||
1|
1|
-|
-

15|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 5|
+15|
+8|
+4|
+7|Divine Succor (20 points), Heroic Sacrifice|Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest)***||
1|
1|
-|
-

16|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 6|
+16|
+9|
+5|
+8|Call to Judgment|||
1|
1|
-|
-

17|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 7|
+17|
+9|
+5|
+8|Furious Strike +6/+3d6|||
1|
1|
-|
-

18|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 8|
+18|
+9|
+5|
+9|Divine Succor (30 points)|Feat||
1|
1|
-|
-

19|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 9|
+19|
+10|
+6|
+9|Improved Divine Resolve, Improved Divine Shield|||
1|
1|
-|
-

20|Paladin 10/ Hellreaver 10|
+20|
+10|
+6|
+10|Divine Retribution, Furious Strike +8/+4d6|||
1|
1|
-|
-[/table]

*Charging Smite is an ACF from PHB II. Deal extra damage on a smite when charging; if you miss, the smite is not considered used. Replaces Special Mount.

** Curse Breaker is an ACF from Complete Mage. Requires Knowledge (arcana) 1 rank. At 6th level, cast Remove Curse 1/week, with one additional weekly use every three levels thereafter (2/week at 9th, 3/week at 12th, etc). Starting at 12th level, you may use two uses of Remove Curse to cast Break Enchantment.

*** This feat selection assumes that the DM will allow Strongheart Vest to offset the Con damage from Heroic Sacrifice. If it won't, the feat will be switched out for something more useful.

Because this build will be making full use of its iterative attacks, a Breath Weapon isn't going to offer as much benefit, as it deprives the build of a combat action. Thus, given that armor weight will prevent effective flight, this build will rely on the Mind Dragonborn aspect. However, given that it still relies on Cha to Smite Evil, it will still use the Spirit Hellbred aspect, for a net -2 Dex, +2 Cha to abilities.

Mega-special thanks to Xerlith and Piggy Knowles for help with Build #1, and to Big Fau and IronFist for help with Build #2.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5) is a Frostblood Desert Half-Orc, which uses 16 levels of Paladin. You could easily remove Half-Orc Paragon, Menacing Demeanor, Half-Orc Paladin sub levels, and Dreadful Wrath. Add on three more Paladin levels, Entangling Exhalation, and probably Martial Study: Devoted Spirit to have Intimidate as a class skill at every level.

[Zero grim]

One question, hellbred looks like its meant to be a template, but its not right, since hellbred has no listed size, base land speed or languages (besides languages you had before???) is it just supper sloppy writing?

Also hellbreds ability score adjustments come from a special ability of the race that you would lose from being a dragon born so I think it could go either way if you keep them or not, id just ask my DM.

[Red Fel]

This build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275093#5) is a Frostblood Desert Half-Orc, which uses 16 levels of Paladin. You could easily remove Half-Orc Paragon, Menacing Demeanor, Half-Orc Paladin sub levels, and Dreadful Wrath. Add on three more Paladin levels, Entangling Exhalation, and probably Martial Study: Devoted Spirit to have Intimidate as a class skill at every level.

Oh, Biff, you and your wacky fear builds. I remember this guy, he still looks like tons of fun.

I think fear may not be what I'm going for with this build, though. Apart from the fact that he looks like a devildragonman, (in before Trogdor reference) he really wants to be a friendly person. As mentioned above, he is a Nice Guy. Using fear just doesn't feel appropriate fluff-wise.

As for Entangling Exhalation, that only really works if I choose to take a breath weapon, and I'm actually leaning more towards Mind or Wings aspect at this point. Given that this build will likely require heavy armor, Mind seems more appropriate.


One question, hellbred looks like its meant to be a template, but its not right, since hellbred has no listed size, base land speed or languages (besides languages you had before???) is it just supper sloppy writing?

Also hellbreds ability score adjustments come from a special ability of the race that you would lose from being a dragon born so I think it could go either way if you keep them or not, id just ask my DM.

First, you are correct; Hellbred is, by RAW, a base race, not a template. Yes, sloppy writing.

Second, the subject of what Hellbred keeps with the Dragonborn template was discussed in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16116948#post16116948). The consensus seemed to be that the Hellbred base loses everything except your choice of ability scores.

Plus side, you lose Hellbound (yes, that is written into the character's backstory as well) so you can be raised normally.

Also, thank you for reminding me to check that thread; I have updated the OP with a corresponding point.

[Chambers]

Here's a start.

Classes: Rogue 5/Paladin 2/Hellbreaker 10/Grey Guard 3
Relevant Feats: Devoted Inquisitor, Staggering Strike

This build touches on a few of the requested aspects. The character is Lawful Good yet there is less of a focus on the Lawful part (Grey Guard's sacrament of trust). Hellbreaker is a Paladin style prestige class that is frankly better at combat than the Paladin (unless you're doing a Spirited Charge/Leap Attack thing). Hellbreaker also plays well with the Hellbred fluff for the character.

With Devoted Inquisitor and Staggering Strike the character has a pretty good chance of dazing any enemy that is subject to dazing and sneak attacks. The Furious Strike ability of the Hellbreaker will make the Staggering Strike DC that much harder to resist.

There's a possible story with the progression of classes as well. The character starts as a Rogue, having some of the ideals necessary for a Paladin (Lawful Good alignment) but perhaps not the dedication and force of will to make the hard decision. Throughout his early adventuring career he has to deal with a number of tough moral dilemmas and develops the right kind of character to become a Paladin.

He takes his vows and joins the Order and is soon swept away, caught up in his own righteousness. He decides to take the fight to those directly responsible for Evil - fiends, of course. He throws himself into the Crusades against the Nine Hells and wins victory after victory...but each rings hollow as he realizes the futility of fighting directly against quite literally an infinite number of enemies. He searches his conscience and finds that he still holds to the ideals of his Vow and Order but understands now that as long as he plays by the rules the fiends expect him to he'll never win. He dons the Grey Mantle, still a Paladin and still fighting the crusade.

Something like that. What level(s) is this character going to be played at?

[Red Fel]

Here's a start.

Classes: Rogue 5/Paladin 2/Hellbreaker 10/Grey Guard 3
Relevant Feats: Devoted Inquisitor, Staggering Strike

This build touches on a few of the requested aspects. The character is Lawful Good yet there is less of a focus on the Lawful part (Grey Guard's sacrament of trust). Hellbreaker is a Paladin style prestige class that is frankly better at combat than the Paladin (unless you're doing a Spirited Charge/Leap Attack thing). Hellbreaker also plays well with the Hellbred fluff for the character.

With Devoted Inquisitor and Staggering Strike the character has a pretty good chance of dazing any enemy that is subject to dazing and sneak attacks. The Furious Strike ability of the Hellbreaker will make the Staggering Strike DC that much harder to resist.

Ooh, Hellbreaker is a nice class! I like the idea of someone who infiltrates infernal strongholds. Sneaky but heroic. I do see one problem, though.


Alignment: Any chaotic.

The character is LG. Even with an emphasis on the G, there's still that troublesome L there to contend with. And I'm pretty sure that sneaky stuff, while not explicitly outlawed by the Code of Conduct, can become moderately frownworthy. (I am willing to be proven wrong, of course.)

I also like Gray Guard, as a class. I think it's a great way for the noble, shining paladin to become a darker, edgier hero. (Batpaladin, anyone?) Problem is, I don't see this character needing the Sacrament of Trust; I don't see him going darker and edgier. Again, he's a genuinely Nice Guy. He doesn't need a way to get around the Code of Conduct restrictions; he willingly applies himself to them.

On the whole, I think this is a really neat idea for a Pally build, but I'm not sure it fits. But thanks for the idea! It makes me wonder what else I could do with my melee attacks to augment them.


There's a possible story with the progression of classes as well. The character starts as a Rogue, having some of the ideals necessary for a Paladin (Lawful Good alignment) but perhaps not the dedication and force of will to make the hard decision. Throughout his early adventuring career he has to deal with a number of tough moral dilemmas and develops the right kind of character to become a Paladin.

He takes his vows and joins the Order and is soon swept away, caught up in his own righteousness. He decides to take the fight to those directly responsible for Evil - fiends, of course. He throws himself into the Crusades against the Nine Hells and wins victory after victory...but each rings hollow as he realizes the futility of fighting directly against quite literally an infinite number of enemies. He searches his conscience and finds that he still holds to the ideals of his Vow and Order but understands now that as long as he plays by the rules the fiends expect him to he'll never win. He dons the Grey Mantle, still a Paladin and still fighting the crusade.

Something like that. What level(s) is this character going to be played at?

I do like your character progression story. But that's not this character's flavor. Thanks for mentioning it; I should probably give some of that in the OP to explain the character better.

And d'oh! I forgot to list levels! Fixed, thanks!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just use Cloistered Cleric 1/ Paladin 19, trade Paladin Turn Undead for Divine Counterspell in CM. Get the Inquisition domain, Practiced Spellcaster at 1st or 3rd, and Divine Defiance (FC2). Spend a Cleric turn attempt to activate Divine Defiance, allowing you to counterspell as an immediate action. Spend a Divine Counterspell use for that, you don't even need to make a spellcraft check. The dispel check to counterspell with that is (Level -4) for effective Paladin turn undead level, +4 for the Inquisition domain, and +2 if you have Kn: Arcana 5 ranks. Items that increase your effective level for turning such as an Ephod of Authority should also provide a bonus to that.

For the Dragonborn aspect, Mind is incredibly weak compared to the other two. Heart with Entangling Exhalation can keep an entire encounter debuffed and make them more likely to attack you as they won't be able to reach anyone else. Wings would be good if you stick to light armor, you can also trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) and use a piercing weapon to execute dive attacks, which combined with casting Rhino's Rush deals triple damage. Get Charging Smite in PH2 and you'll deal +3 damage per Paladin level, all of which gets tripled. Use a Ritiik from Frostburn and when you yank the weapon out of them (no action unless you're trying to avoid dealing extra damage) you deal exactly as much damage as that initial hit. For example, at 6th level you'll get +5 for Smite Evil, +10 for Charging Smite, and assuming Str 18 and a +1 weapon you'll hit for an average of 80 damage on a Dive Attack with Rhino's Rush. You can then pull the Ritiik back out, dealing just as much damage as the initial hit (80 or so) with no additional effort or expenditure of resources. Get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power to recover Rhino's Rush.

[Red Fel]

Just use Cloistered Cleric 1/ Paladin 19, trade Paladin Turn Undead for Divine Counterspell in CM. Get the Inquisition domain, Practiced Spellcaster at 1st or 3rd, and Divine Defiance (FC2). Spend a Cleric turn attempt to activate Divine Defiance, allowing you to counterspell as an immediate action. Spend a Divine Counterspell use for that, you don't even need to make a spellcraft check. The dispel check to counterspell with that is (Level -4) for effective Paladin turn undead level, +4 for the Inquisition domain, and +2 if you have Kn: Arcana 5 ranks. Items that increase your effective level for turning such as an Ephod of Authority should also provide a bonus to that.

Ooh. Ooh, this is nice. This is really nice. Assuming this campaign doesn't involve a lot of undead, that's a really, really potent combo. (Even if it does, undead are for killing, not for turning. Duh.) Inquisition isn't a Bahamut domain, but I can see the synergy there. And picking up the alternate Turn source is smart, and... wow. That's a pretty sweet combo.


For the Dragonborn aspect, Mind is incredibly weak compared to the other two. Heart with Entangling Exhalation can keep an entire encounter debuffed and make them more likely to attack you as they won't be able to reach anyone else. Wings would be good if you stick to light armor, you can also trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) and use a piercing weapon to execute dive attacks, which combined with casting Rhino's Rush deals triple damage. Get Charging Smite in PH2 and you'll deal +3 damage per Paladin level, all of which gets tripled. Use a Ritiik from Frostburn and when you yank the weapon out of them (no action unless you're trying to avoid dealing extra damage) you deal exactly as much damage as that initial hit. For example, at 6th level you'll get +5 for Smite Evil, +10 for Charging Smite, and assuming Str 18 and a +1 weapon you'll hit for an average of 80 damage on a Dive Attack with Rhino's Rush. You can then pull the Ritiik back out, dealing just as much damage as the initial hit (80 or so) with no additional effort or expenditure of resources. Get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power to recover Rhino's Rush.

Now there's an interesting point. I generally hear about Mind and Wings being better than Heart, because they're passive boosts that are always useful (and Ex), whereas Heart is an active weapon that takes up an action and can be blocked. But using it with Entangling Exhalation specifically to mass-debuff is... Actually very smart. I can see the merit to it.

And Charging Smite, I've read about. (Yes, I've read Paladin handbooks, but I'm still making this thread, because those are mostly about playing Paladin as Paladin, maybe with PrCs, and I'm not opposed to multiclassing.) It's a bit outrageously nice. Rhino's Rush and a Ritiik... I like the alliteration, and I also like the damage output. That's a bit vicious. I approve.

I also assume Battle Blessing is probably vital to such a build, isn't it?

[Big Fau]

Paladins can be CG (Unearthed Arcana). Hellreaver is still an option.

Personally, I'd go Crusader 1/Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10. Loses 4 CLs, but damn do you have buffs.

[Chambers]

Whoops. Glanced right over the alignment requirement.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ooh. Ooh, this is nice. This is really nice. Assuming this campaign doesn't involve a lot of undead, that's a really, really potent combo. (Even if it does, undead are for killing, not for turning. Duh.) Inquisition isn't a Bahamut domain, but I can see the synergy there. And picking up the alternate Turn source is smart, and... wow. That's a pretty sweet combo.

You can also get Knowledge Devotion and Law Devotion from that Cloistered Cleric level. The fear build I linked earlier also uses this exact same trick.

[Red Fel]

Paladins can be CG (Unearthed Arcana). Hellreaver is still an option.

Can be. But as stated above, this one is explicitly LG.


Personally, I'd go Crusader 1/Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10. Loses 4 CLs, but damn do you have buffs.

Now we're talking! I like Crusader, I think maneuvers add a lot to the build. But are you sure taking him at level 1 is best? If I took Crusader at a higher level, I could get some very solid maneuvers.

And ooh, Cleric. There's a lot I could do with that, I grant you. But by level 7, the build is looking more like a caster who can melee than a melee with spells. Also, I see you sneaking Prestige Paladin in there - but I'll accept it as a sugar-free Paladin substitute, because you're awesome, and because it totally is a sugar-free Paladin substitute.

Now, RKV... Hmm. I'm of mixed feelings about it, as a class. On the one hand, it's a pretty badass ToB class that fits a Paladin nicely. On the other hand, it requires Wee Jas. On the other, that can be re-fluffed, and Divine Impetus is sick, particularly when coupled with Battle Blessing. On the other, the focus on stealth would have to go. On the other, it can go, because nothing in the class says you have to stealth and use Shadow Hand.

Overall... Hmm. It's interesting. But I'd like to hear you explain the build a bit more before I buy in. And I'm still a bit concerned that it's more caster-focused than melee-focused.


You can also get Knowledge Devotion and Law Devotion from that Cloistered Cleric level. The fear build I linked earlier also uses this exact same trick.

Now, Knowledge and Law Devotion, those are ideas I can get behind. Particularly the former, but I could get to like the latter.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm. I'll go with a simple, fun build. So you got your Hellbred Dragonborn, with the +Charisma version because why not? I'm thinking Fighter 1, Paladin 4, into Anointed Knight.

Power level? Probably lower than anything else in here so far. Flavorful? Probably. It follows the story of a Hellbred, damned Fighter finding his calling as a Paladin and channeling his divine magic and blessing into perfecting himself and his holy weapon to fight against the powers that once claimed him. Sort of build that has the hooks that are easy for me to sink into.

Part of the reason I suggested Spirit instead of Body being that Anointed Knight abilities are all keyed off Charisma + Level when you take 'em. And honestly you want to make sure you have the bonuses to snag them. Having a good Charisma on a Paladin Chassis isn't a bad thing anyway, so why not? In particular you want (in my experience) the Unicorn's Blood upgrade... because why NOT make your weapon poison to every evil creature that even bypasses poison immunities like being Undead, etc, and Sentience, because, hell, intelligent items kick ass (On top of already being an Ancestral Relic and thus pretty badass).

Course you need to take Paladin to 4 to get spellcasting so you can se Alchemy so you can actually get anything out of the class by RAW. Course you could get around it with something like a dip in Cloistered Cleric instead for the cost of slowing down your entry into Anointed Knight as it's BaB capped on entry. But hell, why not? 4 is a good place to cut off Paladin, you get your Turn Undead for trading shenanigans. You have the ability to cast spells and thus use useful wands and scrolls. Plus side means that you're less MAD as you don't really give a damn about Wisdom since you're not going for the magic necessarily. So pump that Charisma, Strength, and Con and call it better.

Might want to ask your DM by the time you finish Anointed Knight if, due to logically being very similar to other exception PrCs, can also become one of those "I can still level Paladin" ones, like Sword of Righteousness. Really no reason you shouldn't be able to other than it seems no one made a note of it.

Not a huge, in depth build. But it's an idea.

[Xerlith]

I have an idea. For now, I'll just post a stub:

Draconic aspect: Wings. Ex flight is as good as always
Hellbred: Spirit. Charisma is nice for a Paladin. The more for this one

Paladin5/Favored Soul1/Ordained Champion 3/Shadowstriker2/Fist of Raziel9

Feats:
1st: Weapon Focus
3rd: Power Attack
4th: (Holy Warrior ACF): Divine Might
5th: Paladin ACF: Charging Smite
6th: Servant of the Heavens
9th: Good Devotion
12th: Divine Shield
15th: Awesome Smite
18th: Avenging Strike

On a sidenote, does a Prestige Paladin count? I't be great if yes.

EDIT: I see someone swordsage'd me.

[Red Fel]

Hmm. I'll go with a simple, fun build. So you got your Hellbred Dragonborn, with the +Charisma version because why not? I'm thinking Fighter 1, Paladin 4, into Anointed Knight.

Power level? Probably lower than anything else in here so far. Flavorful? Probably. It follows the story of a Hellbred, damned Fighter finding his calling as a Paladin and channeling his divine magic and blessing into perfecting himself and his holy weapon to fight against the powers that once claimed him. Sort of build that has the hooks that are easy for me to sink into.

Part of the reason I suggested Spirit instead of Body being that Anointed Knight abilities are all keyed off Charisma + Level when you take 'em. And honestly you want to make sure you have the bonuses to snag them. Having a good Charisma on a Paladin Chassis isn't a bad thing anyway, so why not? In particular you want (in my experience) the Unicorn's Blood upgrade... because why NOT make your weapon poison to every evil creature that even bypasses poison immunities like being Undead, etc, and Sentience, because, hell, intelligent items kick ass (On top of already being an Ancestral Relic and thus pretty badass).

Course you need to take Paladin to 4 to get spellcasting so you can se Alchemy so you can actually get anything out of the class by RAW. Course you could get around it with something like a dip in Cloistered Cleric instead for the cost of slowing down your entry into Anointed Knight as it's BaB capped on entry. But hell, why not? 4 is a good place to cut off Paladin, you get your Turn Undead for trading shenanigans. You have the ability to cast spells and thus use useful wands and scrolls. Plus side means that you're less MAD as you don't really give a damn about Wisdom since you're not going for the magic necessarily. So pump that Charisma, Strength, and Con and call it better.

Might want to ask your DM by the time you finish Anointed Knight if, due to logically being very similar to other exception PrCs, can also become one of those "I can still level Paladin" ones, like Sword of Righteousness. Really no reason you shouldn't be able to other than it seems no one made a note of it.

Not a huge, in depth build. But it's an idea.

Ahh, finally, someone suggests a Hellbred ability score choice! Yeah, I could see taking the Cha, although it offsets the Con gain from Dragonborn, leaving me with +Cha, -Dex. But in a class where Cha is king...

Sorry, let me try that again. Ahem. In a world, where Charisma is king... Much better.

Anyway, yeah, that's a unique little class. Admittedly, BoED gets a lot of flak for the sheer quantity of lactose it contains, but this is cute. It's basically a "build your own" class.

Interesting that you started with Fighter, although I won't say no to that bonus feat.

It's a cute build. I like it. I'm not sold, but it's cute. And it's got a helluva lotta flavor, too - ancestral, intelligent, unicorn blood weapon? You almost had me just at that!


I have an idea. For now, I'll just post a stub:

Draconic aspect: Wings. Ex flight is as good as always
Hellbred: Spirit. Charisma is nice for a Paladin. The more for this one

Paladin5/Favored Soul1/Ordained Champion 3/Shadowstriker2/Fist of Raziel9

Feats:
1st: Weapon Focus
3rd: Power Attack
4th: (Holy Warrior ACF): Divine Might
5th: Paladin ACF: Charging Smite
6th: Servant of the Heavens
9th: Good Devotion
12th: Divine Shield
15th: Awesome Smite
18th: Avenging Strike

On a sidenote, does a Prestige Paladin count? I't be great if yes.

EDIT: I see someone swordsage'd me.

Yep, Prestige Pally counts for this one. Now let's see what you've got.

Hmm... Quite a lot of classes. Paladin I get. Favored Soul, for a one-level dip, gets me... some spells and +2 to all saves? I... guess? I mean, you'll have to run that one by me again...

And Ordained Champion... I like the class, it's a neat class with good BAB and spell progression and some really great skills... But the "Must worship Hextor or Heironeous" part is a bit offputting. Yes, it can be re-fluffed, but that will have to be addressed.

Shadowstriker... Is a neat little class. Very useful anti-undead abilities. And I suppose I could take Good Devotion if I had to. But it seems awfully... Pelor-oriented? I know that's more fluff than crunch, but it does look like it would take some tweaking.

Fist of Raziel... Okay, now here's a class I know and love. It does have a feat tax (Servant of the Heavens), which is annoying, and raises a fluff issue. (Specifically: If the character serves Bahamut, is he allowed to swear loyalty to the Archons?)

I admit, the build has me intrigued. There are some neat functions in there, even if they do feel a bit schizophrenic. I'm also curious why you selected the specific level numbers you did.

I look forward to hearing the details, though; it sounds like it should be quite clever.

[ArcturusV]

I'm sure someone better at Op-Fu than I could round out the Anointed Knight build better. I almost never have games that go over about level 15 anyway at the outlier, so that territory is mostly undiscovered territory for me that I never think of.

[Red Fel]

I'm sure someone better at Op-Fu than I could round out the Anointed Knight build better. I almost never have games that go over about level 15 anyway at the outlier, so that territory is mostly undiscovered territory for me that I never think of.

Don't get me wrong, I like it. It definitely flows, if I follow the "my body is a temple/ divine gift" line of flavor for this character, and Dragonborn by fluff tend to follow that.

It would require more in-depth decisionmaking with the class, since every class feature comes from a "choice of" list, but it definitely has merit. I think that if the character were to go from a noble hero who fights evil to one who fights capital-E Evil, that would be a very effective direction.

[Big Fau]

I never specified that Crusader had to be your 1st class level, just that Crusader 1 was needed. You do get better skill points and 2 extra HP, but that's a pittance you can live without. I'm sure there's a Domain somewhere that gives Hide/Move Silently as a class skill to make RKV entry easier.

As to the reason for RKV, Divine Impetus+Battle Blessing. Even if the DM rules that BB only applies to spells on the Paladin's class spell list, that still gives you an absolutely huge number of 1st-4th level spells that you can auto-Quicken. While the build itself doesn't get 9/9, it does get a metric ton of options and doesn't actually need the 9th level spells/maneuvers (a metric ton of the Cleric's best buffs are below 8th level, and the maneuvers are just for fun).

Of course there's another route you can take if RKV isn't to your liking: Divine Crusader. Any Full BAB class 7/Divine Crusader 1/Warpriest 1/PrC Paladin 2/Sovereign Speaker 9. You'd have to talk the DM into letting you reflavor Sovereign Speaker to match the good-aligned Dragonic pantheon (given that the Host has 9 deities and the Dragonic pantheon has 8, it should work if you use the Glory domain for the 9th level of SS).

[Red Fel]

I never specified that Crusader had to be your 1st class level, just that Crusader 1 was needed. You do get better skill points and 2 extra HP, but that's a pittance you can live without. I'm sure there's a Domain somewhere that gives Hide/Move Silently as a class skill to make RKV entry easier.

As to the reason for RKV, Divine Impetus+Battle Blessing. Even if the DM rules that BB only applies to spells on the Paladin's class spell list, that still gives you an absolutely huge number of 1st-4th level spells that you can auto-Quicken. While the build itself doesn't get 9/9, it does get a metric ton of options and doesn't actually need the 9th level spells/maneuvers (a metric ton of the Cleric's best buffs are below 8th level, and the maneuvers are just for fun).

Of course there's another route you can take if RKV isn't to your liking: Divine Crusader. Any Full BAB class 7/Divine Crusader 1/Warpriest 1/PrC Paladin 2/Sovereign Speaker 9. You'd have to talk the DM into letting you reflavor Sovereign Speaker to match the good-aligned Dragonic pantheon (given that the Host has 9 deities and the Dragonic pantheon has 8, it should work if you use the Glory domain for the 9th level of SS).

First off, I totally get where you're coming from with RKV. Divine Impetus + Battle Blessing is like RKV 101, and RKV is one of the first things anyone reading ToB should study. So I completely get you there. And I'm not 100% opposed. It would simply require some retooling, is all.

As for the second build stub... Hmm. Okay. Divine Crusader and Sovereign Speaker are both 2/3 BAB PrCs with a substantial casting progression. (Particularly SS, with all of those domains... trying not to drool over all those domains...) The BAB isn't a problem if I opened with 7 levels of full BAB, and after all at higher levels BAB drops off in value as spells pick up the slack. They're very impressive classes but... Again, I wanted this build to be more of "melee with casting," not "caster who can melee." Also, as you correctly observe, Sovereign Speaker has to be refluffed for this purpose.

As for Divine Crusader specifically... Hrm. It's basically Cleric-lite, in some ways - pick one domain and get spells and power from it. Also some little abilities, some of which aren't terribly useful (I mean, Weapon Specialization in one of Bahamut's favored weapons? Have you seen that list? Oh, goody, I get Weapon Spec if I use a one-handed 1d4 weapon!) and resistances and such. I'm just not entirely feeling it unless I really want the spellcasting.

Warpriest, for a single-level dip, gets me another source of Turning, the Glory domain, and a bonus to resist fear on allies. That's... Nice, I suppose?

I mean, you really haven't explained the "why" of this build to me. It clearly has some solid utility (particularly from all those domains), but I just don't see what it's designed to do, you know?

[IronFist]

I'd go with a charge-focused Paladin build. Heck, maybe even Paladin 20 dropping mount for the charger ACF from Complete Champion.
That or Paladin 10/Hellreaver 10. I really don't see any reason to get an overcomplicated build here.

[Red Fel]

I'd go with a charge-focused Paladin build. Heck, maybe even Paladin 20 dropping mount for the charger ACF from Complete Champion.
That or Paladin 10/Hellreaver 10. I really don't see any reason to get an overcomplicated build here.

I happen to like simple. I like it a lot. And Charging Smite is pretty sick as far as ACFs go. (But I thought that was from PHB II. The only ones I remember from Complete Champion are Holy Warrior and Underdark Knight. Did you mean one of those?)

And Hellreaver... Wow. I forgot about this class. This is... This is insanely good for this concept. Yeah. I could see how a dragon-blessed formerly-damned being pursued by devils might have use for a class which channels raw divine energy into furious destruction of evil. It's only slightly outrageous. Full BAB, decent save progression, more emphasis on melee than spellcasting... And a single feat (Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest) can basically make Heroic Sacrifice a freebie... This is a really impressive-looking class.

I'm going to have to sleep on this one. It sounds incredible. I'd still need to figure out how to build around it, of course, but... Hellreaver might be one of the most promising ideas yet.

[Big Fau]

As for Divine Crusader specifically... Hrm. It's basically Cleric-lite, in some ways - pick one domain and get spells and power from it. Also some little abilities, some of which aren't terribly useful (I mean, Weapon Specialization in one of Bahamut's favored weapons? Have you seen that list? Oh, goody, I get Weapon Spec if I use a one-handed 1d4 weapon!) and resistances and such. I'm just not entirely feeling it unless I really want the spellcasting.

Warpriest, for a single-level dip, gets me another source of Turning, the Glory domain, and a bonus to resist fear on allies. That's... Nice, I suppose?

The Divine Crusader build is to get 9th level buff spells. From the SS levels you'd get access to:

Dragon

Resist Energy
Greater Magic Fang
True Seeing
Dragon Ally
Dominate Monster
Luck

Entropic Shield
Aid
Protection from Energy
Freedom of Movement
Break Enchantment
Spell Turning
Moment of Prescience
Miracle
Travel

Fly
Dimension Door
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Astral Projection
Trickery

Invisibility
Nondetection
Polymorph Any Object
Time Stop
Charm

Good Hope
Charm Monster
Geas/Quest
Dominate Monster
Illusion

Silent Image
Minor Image
Displacement
Mislead
Trade

Fabricate
True Seeing
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mind Blank
Protection

Sanctuary
Shield Other
Protection from Energy
Spell Immunity
Antimagic Field
Mind Blank
Prismatic Sphere
Wealth

Alarm
Glyph of Warding
Forbiddance
Cavern

Meld into Stone
Passwall
Maw of Stone
Earthquake
Imprisonment
Metal

Wall of Iron
Blade Barrier
Iron Body
Air

Obscuring Mist
Wind Wall
Gaseous Form
Air Walk
Control Weather
Elemental Swarm
Good

Protection from Evil
Aid
Magic Circle against Evil
Blade Barrier
Holy Aura
Summon Monster 9
Nobility

Divine Favor
Magic Vestment
Geas/Quest
Storm of Vengeance
Storm

Entropic Shield
Summon Monster VI
Control Weather
Whirlwind
Death

Death Ward
Knowledge

Divination
True Seeing
Foresight
Fate

Augury
Status
Vision
Mind Blank
Foresight
Planning

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Heroes' Feast
Greater Scrying
Time Stop
Time

True Strike
Haste
Freedom of Movement
Permanency
Contingency
Foresight
Time Stop
Rune

Glyph of Warding
Explosive Runes
Lesser Planar Binding
Greater Glyph of Warding
Teleportation Circle
Strength

Enlarge Person
Bull's Strength
Magic Vestment
Spell immunity
Righteous Might
Spell

Mage Armor
Silence
Anyspell
Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer
Break Enchantment
Greater Anyspell
Limited Wish
Antimagic Field
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Destruction

Disintegrate
Law

Hold Monster
Summon Monster 9
Retribution

Shield of Faith
Bear's Endurance
Fire Shield
Spell Turning
Healing

Heal
Regenerate
Mass Heal
Sun

Fire Shield
Fire Seeds
Sunbeam
Prismatic Sphere
Family

Bless
Shield Other
Imbue with Spell Ability
Heroes' Feast
Refuge
Prismatic Sphere
Glory

Holy Sword
Gate

That's a nice, long list of awesome spells, many of which you'd be able to put to good use as buffs. I do agree that the granted powers aren't always that good, but each domain offers at least one good spell (Death being the major exception: A lot of it's spells are good, just not for a Paladin). Even low-level spells like Bless and Aid go a long way to helping you out, turning you from Unbuffed Badass into mini-CoDzilla.

Hell, spells like these are what make Sovereign Speaker so good anyway.

[Xerlith]

I'ts simple. Ordained Champion and Fist of Raziel progress Favored Soul spellcasting. You end up with spontaneously casting 5th level Cleric spells. The whole build focuses, as you can see, on smiting.


I see your problem with the specific fluff and most probably I'll address your worries later today, level by level. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Okay. So you start out as a normal Paladin, Power Attacking with Smite and charging (focus on Charisma).
Later on your devotion is rewarded by Bahamut by making you a Favored Soul...
You then strenghten your resolve by going Ordained Champion (progressing FS spellcasting), which grants you the ability to convert your Turning attempts into Smites, even against non-evil oponents, and the ability to channel your spells through your weapon. The Divine Bulwark is nice too.
Then you (drop the Badge of Office part) become able to imbue your weapon with dragonfire (Kind of. Shadowstriker2), which lets you have some more versatility against non-evil opponents.
Because against the evil ones you become the Mighty Smiter thanks to the nine levels of Fist of Raziel (progressing, again, FS casting).
This build grants you MANY, MANY smites, along with some fun uses for your Turning if you aren't smiting at the moment. What you should be doing.

The relevant stats for you are only Charisma, Strength and Constitution. Charisma mostly. It governs your saves, your SMITES, your TU (which gives you power for DIvine Feats for more CHA synergy). And of course Charisma governs your Favored Soul spellcasting.


EDIT: Duskblade3/Cleric1/Crusader1/Prestige Paladin3/Dragon Disciple2/Ruby Knight Vindicator10


What you get here is a simple RKV build with a twist. You can channel any touch spell you know through your weapon, effectively giving you a more versatile Smite Evil. You gain two claws and a bite attack thanks to the Dragon Disciple (Also - fluff reasons). For which you (somehow) qualify.
This is your makeshift Smite ability early on. You do not need more than 11-12 Int here.
Crusader gives you of course maneuvers. Cleric is obvious.
Prestige Pally is also obvious in the build. Three levels give you some neat abilities. you can try to trade the Mount for the Charging Smite ACF here as well.
Dragon Disciple 2 gives you natural attacks, +2 to your Str, reducing MAD a bit, the bonus spells you can add to your Cleric levels for later fueling the Divine Wrath you gain from the RKV.

You end up with 7th level Cleric spells, 18BAB, 8th level maneuvers.
Almost all of your feats are completely free to choose. Well, you will want Power Attack. Grab a glaive and armor spikes. Pick Flyby attack (maneuvers during flying by? Yes please). You will be Diving if you're charging.
Overall your options here - Full attack with your weapon + bite
Flyby attacking with your Smite, martial Strikes or channeled spells.
Charging from flying for double damage + three times your Paladin.

You COULD drop Duskblade and go Cler4/Crus1/PrPal2/OrdainedChamp3/RKV10 and grab canneling that requires a move action more, but be able to cast 8th level Cleric spells. You lose the Dragon Disciple flavor though.

[Red Fel]

The Divine Crusader build is to get 9th level buff spells. From the SS levels you'd get access to:

Dragon

Resist Energy
Greater Magic Fang
True Seeing
Dragon Ally
Dominate Monster
Luck

Entropic Shield
Aid
Protection from Energy
Freedom of Movement
Break Enchantment
Spell Turning
Moment of Prescience
Miracle
Travel

Fly
Dimension Door
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Astral Projection
Trickery

Invisibility
Nondetection
Polymorph Any Object
Time Stop
Charm

Good Hope
Charm Monster
Geas/Quest
Dominate Monster
Illusion

Silent Image
Minor Image
Displacement
Mislead
Trade

Fabricate
True Seeing
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mind Blank
Protection

Sanctuary
Shield Other
Protection from Energy
Spell Immunity
Antimagic Field
Mind Blank
Prismatic Sphere
Wealth

Alarm
Glyph of Warding
Forbiddance
Cavern

Meld into Stone
Passwall
Maw of Stone
Earthquake
Imprisonment
Metal

Wall of Iron
Blade Barrier
Iron Body
Air

Obscuring Mist
Wind Wall
Gaseous Form
Air Walk
Control Weather
Elemental Swarm
Good

Protection from Evil
Aid
Magic Circle against Evil
Blade Barrier
Holy Aura
Summon Monster 9
Nobility

Divine Favor
Magic Vestment
Geas/Quest
Storm of Vengeance
Storm

Entropic Shield
Summon Monster VI
Control Weather
Whirlwind
Death

Death Ward
Knowledge

Divination
True Seeing
Foresight
Fate

Augury
Status
Vision
Mind Blank
Foresight
Planning

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Heroes' Feast
Greater Scrying
Time Stop
Time

True Strike
Haste
Freedom of Movement
Permanency
Contingency
Foresight
Time Stop
Rune

Glyph of Warding
Explosive Runes
Lesser Planar Binding
Greater Glyph of Warding
Teleportation Circle
Strength

Enlarge Person
Bull's Strength
Magic Vestment
Spell immunity
Righteous Might
Spell

Mage Armor
Silence
Anyspell
Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer
Break Enchantment
Greater Anyspell
Limited Wish
Antimagic Field
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Destruction

Disintegrate
Law

Hold Monster
Summon Monster 9
Retribution

Shield of Faith
Bear's Endurance
Fire Shield
Spell Turning
Healing

Heal
Regenerate
Mass Heal
Sun

Fire Shield
Fire Seeds
Sunbeam
Prismatic Sphere
Family

Bless
Shield Other
Imbue with Spell Ability
Heroes' Feast
Refuge
Prismatic Sphere
Glory

Holy Sword
Gate

That's a nice, long list of awesome spells, many of which you'd be able to put to good use as buffs. I do agree that the granted powers aren't always that good, but each domain offers at least one good spell (Death being the major exception: A lot of it's spells are good, just not for a Paladin). Even low-level spells like Bless and Aid go a long way to helping you out, turning you from Unbuffed Badass into mini-CoDzilla.

Hell, spells like these are what make Sovereign Speaker so good anyway.

Wow. That is a nice, long list of spells, and some pretty potent powerups to boot. I can definitely see the pewpew in this build.

I admit, part of the reason for my melee focus was to cut down on spells I'd have to remember, but this is... Really, really useful, and makes the character so much more than a shiny sword and a pretty face. I confess that I like it. You do impress, Fau, you really do.


I'ts simple. Ordained Champion and Fist of Raziel progress Favored Soul spellcasting. You end up with spontaneously casting 5th level Cleric spells. The whole build focuses, as you can see, on smiting.


I see your problem with the specific fluff and most probably I'll address your worries later today, level by level. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Okay. So you start out as a normal Paladin, Power Attacking with Smite and charging (focus on Charisma).
Later on your devotion is rewarded by Bahamut by making you a Favored Soul...
You then strenghten your resolve by going Ordained Champion (progressing FS spellcasting), which grants you the ability to convert your Turning attempts into Smites, even against non-evil oponents, and the ability to channel your spells through your weapon. The Divine Bulwark is nice too.
Then you (drop the Badge of Office part) become able to imbue your weapon with dragonfire (Kind of. Shadowstriker2), which lets you have some more versatility against non-evil opponents.
Because against the evil ones you become the Mighty Smiter thanks to the nine levels of Fist of Raziel (progressing, again, FS casting).
This build grants you MANY, MANY smites, along with some fun uses for your Turning if you aren't smiting at the moment. What you should be doing.

The relevant stats for you are only Charisma, Strength and Constitution. Charisma mostly. It governs your saves, your SMITES, your TU (which gives you power for DIvine Feats for more CHA synergy). And of course Charisma governs your Favored Soul spellcasting.

Oh, okay. I like the progression of this build. It makes some nice story sense. It's got a really, really solid emphasis on the Smite-Me-Oh-Mighty-Smighter thing, and though it requires some refluffing, I think it could be made to work. And CHARISMA! because Charisma.


EDIT: Duskblade3/Cleric1/Crusader1/Prestige Paladin3/Dragon Disciple2/Ruby Knight Vindicator10

What you get here is a simple RKV build with a twist. You can channel any touch spell you know through your weapon, effectively giving you a more versatile Smite Evil. You gain two claws and a bite attack thanks to the Dragon Disciple (Also - fluff reasons). For which you (somehow) qualify.
This is your makeshift Smite ability early on. You do not need more than 11-12 Int here.
Crusader gives you of course maneuvers. Cleric is obvious.
Prestige Pally is also obvious in the build. Three levels give you some neat abilities. you can try to trade the Mount for the Charging Smite ACF here as well.
Dragon Disciple 2 gives you natural attacks, +2 to your Str, reducing MAD a bit, the bonus spells you can add to your Cleric levels for later fueling the Divine Wrath you gain from the RKV.

You end up with 7th level Cleric spells, 18BAB, 8th level maneuvers.
Almost all of your feats are completely free to choose. Well, you will want Power Attack. Grab a glaive and armor spikes. Pick Flyby attack (maneuvers during flying by? Yes please). You will be Diving if you're charging.
Overall your options here - Full attack with your weapon + bite
Flyby attacking with your Smite, martial Strikes or channeled spells.
Charging from flying for double damage + three times your Paladin.

You COULD drop Duskblade and go Cler4/Crus1/PrPal2/OrdainedChamp3/RKV10 and grab canneling that requires a move action more, but be able to cast 8th level Cleric spells. You lose the Dragon Disciple flavor though.

Oh, ooh. Hmm. As previously mentioned, RKV would take some refluffing, but I'm not opposed. Dragon Disciple also causes some concern, because it requires "Race: Any nondragon." And according to the Dragonblood subtype (from Dragonborn), the character qualifies as Dragon for anything requiring it. Does that also mean he counts for anything excluding it?

That said? I do love Duskblade. Duskblade is delicious.

I also like the idea of using spells as something other than spells (e.g. fuel for OC's abilities). It keeps matters simple, and it's a smart little trick.

And, hmm... That last build you posted... I'd miss the Duskblade a bit, but make up for it somewhat, and wouldn't mind losing DD... And the build is much more melee oriented... I see a lot of promise there.

As an aside, I realize I'm complicating things with certain issues (e.g. the mostly-fluff deity associations of these classes). Divine Casters have a lot of goddy-issues. I get that. But I try to remain close-to-RAW if possible. Thank you all for working with me on that.

Anyway... Hmm. I'm going to tool around with some of these ideas. You've all shown me a lot of classes, and options but I'm not quite sold yet. I'd welcome more suggestions, and in the meantime, I'm gonna go do my thinky-thing.

[Piggy Knowles]

Well, if you're considering refluffing anyhow, RKV is a pretty potent choice even if you don't want to focus on casting. It dramatically fixes some of the Crusader's issues with recovery and maneuver access. Just going Paladin 4/Crusader 14/RKV 2 or Paladin 4/Crusader 9/RKV 7 would let you wind up with a pretty solid build.

That's option one.

Another option that I've always wanted to toy with would be to build an idiot crusader (a crusader that knows less maneuvers than it is granted, and refreshes its maneuvers every round) with levels in Shadow Sun Ninja and adds in some method of shadow pouncing (Telflammar Shadowlord, Crinti Shadow Marauder or the less impressive but still doable Sun School + Snap Kick). Pick up the teleportation maneuvers from Shadow Hand via Shadow Sun Ninja, refresh them each round as an idiot crusader, and pounce each round as a swift action with Shadow Blink. I've never actually worked up the build, but it could be pretty interesting. Still, it's level heavy, and adding in paladin levels on top of that is rough.

You could also go crazy with something like Cleric 3/Crusader 6/Divine Crusader 8/Prestige Paladin 3. That would give you 9th-level spells from one of Bahamut's domains, +17 BAB, and 7th-level maneuvers. Use your cleric spells to cast Substitute Domain, and switch out your Divine Crusader domain each day as you see fit. From looking at Bahamut's domains, there are some nice buffs at the lower levels on domains like Nobility, while at high levels you'll pretty much just want Luck for the ability to cast Miracle several times a day. (Alternatively, Cleric 3/Crusader 7/Divine Crusader 7/PP 3 gives you the same BAB and maneuvers, but one more maneuver known in exchange for fewer spells per day. I'd probably stick with the first build.)

[IronFist]

You know, Shadow Sun Ninja fits very well thematically to a dragornborn/hellbred.

[Red Fel]

Well, if you're considering refluffing anyhow, RKV is a pretty potent choice even if you don't want to focus on casting. It dramatically fixes some of the Crusader's issues with recovery and maneuver access. Just going Paladin 4/Crusader 14/RKV 2 or Paladin 4/Crusader 9/RKV 7 would let you wind up with a pretty solid build.

That's option one.

You know I'm very pro-ToB. So, yes, if refluffing were on the table, RKV would definitely be something to consider. And it would keep the melee emphasis, which is a great plus. Although taking RKV for anything less than 7 levels just feels criminal.

And even without RKV, Crusader makes for some fine tanking. Between delayed damage pool and Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances, there's a lot there.


Another option that I've always wanted to toy with would be to build an idiot crusader (a crusader that knows less maneuvers than it is granted, and refreshes its maneuvers every round) with levels in Shadow Sun Ninja and adds in some method of shadow pouncing (Telflammar Shadowlord, Crinti Shadow Marauder or the less impressive but still doable Sun School + Snap Kick). Pick up the teleportation maneuvers from Shadow Hand via Shadow Sun Ninja, refresh them each round as an idiot crusader, and pounce each round as a swift action with Shadow Blink. I've never actually worked up the build, but it could be pretty interesting. Still, it's level heavy, and adding in paladin levels on top of that is rough.


You know, Shadow Sun Ninja fits very well thematically to a dragornborn/hellbred.

It's an interesting idea. SSN definitely has fantastic flavor for the build - balancing the good and evil, etc. Working into SSN from a Paladin perspective seems frightful, given that SSN seems to be built around a monk chassis, requiring IUS and providing monk features, while Paladin is... Well, one is a light-footed light-armored unarmed ninja, and the other is a heavy clanking tank. The flavor fits, but the armor chafes.



You could also go crazy with something like Cleric 3/Crusader 6/Divine Crusader 8/Prestige Paladin 3. That would give you 9th-level spells from one of Bahamut's domains, +17 BAB, and 7th-level maneuvers. Use your cleric spells to cast Substitute Domain, and switch out your Divine Crusader domain each day as you see fit. From looking at Bahamut's domains, there are some nice buffs at the lower levels on domains like Nobility, while at high levels you'll pretty much just want Luck for the ability to cast Miracle several times a day. (Alternatively, Cleric 3/Crusader 7/Divine Crusader 7/PP 3 gives you the same BAB and maneuvers, but one more maneuver known in exchange for fewer spells per day. I'd probably stick with the first build.)

Hmm. Now there's something. It manages to bring in the higher-level spellcasting that everyone keeps insisting I use, but it still makes the build a melee focus. I admit, I kind of like it.

Okay, let's sum up a few things. I'm getting a big impression that I should really, really be taking more spells than I'd anticipated. And that's okay; this is another learning experience for me. I'm also getting the impression that Divine Caster builds are hard to optimize without some refluffing. And that's okay too, same reason.

So here's where I think I am right now, in terms of possible classes:
Paladin/Prestige Paladin: Obviously, heart of this build. If I take Paladin, I should take the Charging Smite ACF. Battle Blessing is a must.
Hellreaver: Wow. This class is gorgeous. Maybe Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest would make it perfect.
Fist of Raziel: Also gorgeous, but would require slight retooling. Still, magnificent beast.
Crusader: If I intend to use Maneuvers, this is definitely my go-to. Also, if I decide to go for (and refluff) RKV.
Divine Crusader: It requires Weapon Focus in one of Bahamut's weapons, and unless someone corrects me, I'm not impressed with the heavy pick, the scimitar, or claws. But other than that, it has some merit, for spells. I see it mostly as a gateway class, though.
Ordained Champion: Divine Bulwark. The fluff needs refluffing, but the rest has merit.
So that's where I am at present. I'd appreciate suggestions in how to assemble some or all of these into a cohesive whole, ideally with feats. (Xerlith, I'm still going over those feats you suggested earlier!) I'm still plugging away at this end.

[Kane0]

Have you considered a little bit of Incarnate? It may work for you thematically, and can give you some nice things that aren't always dependent on melee combat. Fairly splash-friendly too.

Food for thought.

[Red Fel]

Have you considered a little bit of Incarnate? It may work for you thematically, and can give you some nice things that aren't always dependent on melee combat. Fairly splash-friendly too.

Food for thought.

Incarnate is a great class, and I enjoy it. Unfortunately, it only allows for one alignment-extreme (NG, NE, LN or CN). The character is explicitly LG. Soulborn would allow LG, but it's a rather poor class unless fixes are used, and I want to avoid those.

[Kane0]

My bad, i mixed up the alignment restrictions between them.

If you're allowed homebrew there should be a few good soulborn fixes for you. Chances are they blend well with pallies and/or crusaders too.

[Red Fel]

My bad, i mixed up the alignment restrictions between them.

If you're allowed homebrew there should be a few good soulborn fixes for you. Chances are they blend well with pallies and/or crusaders too.

Nope, no homebrew. See the original post. Don't get me wrong, Soulborn is a chassis on which solid fixes can be built, but I don't want to chance DM veto on that sort of thing.

Thanks for the idea, though.

[Big Fau]

Divine Crusader: It requires Weapon Focus in one of Bahamut's weapons, and unless someone corrects me, I'm not impressed with the heavy pick, the scimitar, or claws. But other than that, it has some merit, for spells. I see it mostly as a gateway class, though.

The Scimitar isn't a bad weapon actually. One-handed means you can two-hand it for PA benefits.

[Red Fel]

The Scimitar isn't a bad weapon actually. One-handed means you can two-hand it for PA benefits.

True, true. It's just that for a melee character, I envisioned more of a massive weapon, like a greatsword or warhammer, with big dice of damage. Not some 1d4 butterknife.

On the other hand, that's not necessarily what the character's about. And certainly, going with a smaller, lighter weapon isn't a terrible thing, if he's supposed to be a noble, merciful, guardian-type.

It's a good point, nonetheless. And it's not a terrible feat tax; a flat +1 to attack rolls isn't bad. I could do better things with the feat, but not bad.

Even so... As a class, Divine Crusader doesn't dazzle me. I come back to it and think, "Why not just play a Cleric, if this is what you're doing?" I mean, Cleric gets the same BAB, gets one more domain, superior spell progression, and turn undead. Divine Crusader gets two resistances, Weapon Specialization, Darkvision, and at 10th level becomes an Outsider and gets a DR that no longer matters. They're nifty little benefits, I just don't see the appeal, except that it's sort of "Cleric-Lite: The PrC" in order to avoid multiclassing penalties. Unless I missed something.

[Big Fau]

Even so... As a class, Divine Crusader doesn't dazzle me. I come back to it and think, "Why not just play a Cleric, if this is what you're doing?" I mean, Cleric gets the same BAB, gets one more domain, superior spell progression, and turn undead. Divine Crusader gets two resistances, Weapon Specialization, Darkvision, and at 10th level becomes an Outsider and gets a DR that no longer matters. They're nifty little benefits, I just don't see the appeal, except that it's sort of "Cleric-Lite: The PrC" in order to avoid multiclassing penalties. Unless I missed something.

It really is a matter of personal taste. Cleric 6/Prestige Pally 2/Whatever you want 12 is good too, but those levels of Cleric are dead as far as class features go (Cleric 1 is where everything is, discounting spell levels). Also, depending on your playgroup, people won't see you as a frontliner for those levels (you know, Healbot stigma).

Divine Crusader lets you play a Crusader or Warblade or something for 7 levels, pretending you're a melee character with style, then you start layering on buffs and getting Domains like no one's business. Hell you could pick up DMM: Persist and Battle Blessing at the same time, and become a downright terrifying divine warrior (you could do it with Cleric too, but you'd lack the Warblade/Crusader goodies). Warblade 7 is a really good level.

[Xerlith]

It really is a matter of personal taste. Cleric 6/Prestige Pally 2/Whatever you want 12 is good too, but those levels of Cleric are dead as far as class features go (Cleric 1 is where everything is, discounting spell levels). Also, depending on your playgroup, people won't see you as a frontliner for those levels (you know, Healbot stigma).

Divine Crusader lets you play a Crusader or Warblade or something for 7 levels, pretending you're a melee character with style, then you start layering on buffs and getting Domains like no one's business. Hell you could pick up DMM: Persist and Battle Blessing at the same time, and become a downright terrifying divine warrior (you could do it with Cleric too, but you'd lack the Warblade/Crusader goodies). Warblade 7 is a really good level.

Sadly, this is not the case:


Spells per Day: A divine crusader casts divine spells. She may only prepare and cast spells from her chosen domain (see above).

So, while you CAN learn spells from other domains, you can NOT prepare or cast them as a Divine Crusader.

[Red Fel]

Well, before we go into the ToB stuff - and I do want to go there, because I think it's a valuable contribution to any melee build - let's back up for a moment and look at spells.

Let's pretend I don't play casters for a moment. That this is my first delve into even a semi-casting build. And from there, let's address a serious question: Apart from the fact that Clerics get more spells, and more selection of spells, and more powerful spells, than Paladins do, what specifically do Cleric spells add to this build? Other than satisfying a prereq for PrCs. Because I'm willing to acknowledge the utility of buffs, for example, if you tell me my Pally spells won't cover that, but I want to know what I'm getting with the package.

Now, onto ToB. Fau, you mentioned Warblade. I do love me some Warblade, and it wouldn't be hard to swap Crusader out for Warblade. It's a sickeningly fine class. But I have two issues. The first is the MAD. With a Paladin chassis, I'm already looking at Str, Con, and Cha, probably some Wis for spellcasting. Throw in Warblade, and we're adding Int for class features. That's a heck of a lot of abilities to buff and track.

And two, and this is just a personal observation, Warblade is like that awesome big brother in college. No matter how good Crusader gets - and it's a solid class - Warblade will always seem cooler. Because he's in college, and on the basketball team, and gets all the girls. And while Warblade would make a solid contribution to this build, a part of me is wondering if I'd be depriving Crusader of the chance to shine.

Yeah. Call me a sentimentalist.

It has always seemed to me that Warblade is the Fighter analogue of ToB, Swordsage the Rogue/Monk, and Crusader the Paladin. Flavorwise, it fits. I could see Warblade in the build, but it wouldn't provide me the entrance into RKV, and it would make me MAD.

So, all that said, the tl;dr of this one is:

- Why cleric spells? And
- Warblade? Not Crusader? Really?

And then all the other questions I've also raised in this thread.

[Big Fau]

Sadly, this is not the case:



So, while you CAN learn spells from other domains, you can NOT prepare or cast them as a Divine Crusader.

Honestly, that's the single dumbest piece of RAW since Monk's proficiency with unarmed strikes. But if you really want to use that as an argument against the Divine Crusader, then here's my retort:


You gain the granted power of the chosen domain. If you have domain spell slots (as a cleric), you can prepare spells of the chosen domain in those slots as normal.

If you instead add domain spells to your existing spell list (as an adept does), simply add the spells of the chosen domain to the appropriate class spell list.

The spells aren't added to your class list, you are outright given the ability to prepare them in existing Domain slots. You'd have an argument about the PrC Pally's benefits, but not for Warpriest or Sovereign Speaker (see also Complete Divine page 20 for additional counterpoints).


Well, before we go into the ToB stuff - and I do want to go there, because I think it's a valuable contribution to any melee build - let's back up for a moment and look at spells.

Let's pretend I don't play casters for a moment. That this is my first delve into even a semi-casting build. And from there, let's address a serious question: Apart from the fact that Clerics get more spells, and more selection of spells, and more powerful spells, than Paladins do, what specifically do Cleric spells add to this build? Other than satisfying a prereq for PrCs. Because I'm willing to acknowledge the utility of buffs, for example, if you tell me my Pally spells won't cover that, but I want to know what I'm getting with the package.

It isn't just utility buffs, the Paladin doesn't get access to spells like Righteous Might, Protection from Energy, and several others. Never mind spells like Dominate Monster, Time Stop, or Greater Teleport.

There are several others, but I'm pressed for time right now and can't do a side-by-side comparison.


Now, onto ToB. Fau, you mentioned Warblade. I do love me some Warblade, and it wouldn't be hard to swap Crusader out for Warblade. It's a sickeningly fine class. But I have two issues. The first is the MAD. With a Paladin chassis, I'm already looking at Str, Con, and Cha, probably some Wis for spellcasting. Throw in Warblade, and we're adding Int for class features. That's a heck of a lot of abilities to buff and track.

Thankfully the Warblade's Int focus is optional, but you have a point. I didn't mention Crusader because it's 7th level is dead aside from the new maneuver, and it's 8th level is very tempting (new stance+Steely Resolve 15).

As for tracking the buffs, you'd be doing that with any Paladin build. Being able to prepare your entire list and then cast 90% of it as a Swift action is a lot to keep in mind. The Maneuver Cards web enhancement simplifies this a fair deal.

The Paladin base class does not get a lot of spells per day, nor does it have a particularly high caster level (1/2 Paladin level). Divine Crusader+Sovereign Speaker (+Practised Spellcaster) gives you a significant CL, high enough that your 10min/level buffs will last entire dungeon crawls (and your Round/Level and Minute/level ones can be quickened fairly easily, especially with Battle Blessing).

While you do get Divine Grace, you'd also have all 3 of the Diamond Mind Save counters. Those are going to be fairly useful, especially because Concentration is a Warblade and Divine Crusader class skill. The Warblade also gets a bonus feat, and while that bonus feat can't be Weapon Focus (why they didn't do that is beyond me) it can be Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative (or you can set up for Stormguard Warrior).

On a final note, I listed Warblade instead of Crusader because of the recovery mechanic: With so much to keep track of, would you really want to tack on the Crusader's recovery mechanic as well? The Warblade's mechanic may prevent your Battle Blessing goodness but you'd generally use that only once or twice per encounter (for the buffs that don't last more than 1 fight), whereas you'd be using the Warblade's recovery mechanic whenever you needed the maneuvers again.

[Red Fel]

Let's dig right in, then.

It isn't just utility buffs, the Paladin doesn't get access to spells like Righteous Might, Protection from Energy, and several others. Never mind spells like Dominate Monster, Time Stop, or Greater Teleport.

There are several others, but I'm pressed for time right now and can't do a side-by-side comparison.

And that, in essence, is what has always made me wary of caster classes; the maintenance of a massive spell list. You're right, of course, that "spells like Dominate Monster, Time Stop, or Greater Teleport" are an incredible spike in power, and it seems almost criminal to take a casting class and not get cool stuff like that. The problems, however, are:
Finding the "right" spells
Keeping track of the spells you've found
Remembering to use the spells you have
It's easy with maneuvers; print out the cards and you're good to go. And in theory, I could probably find/make some spell cards. I'm pretty sure there's also an app for PHB-based spells. But when you have so many resources, it becomes very easy to suddenly stop, and say, "Wait, I just realized I had a spell I could have used three encounters ago!"

The other issue I have is that once you have things like Dominate Monster, Time Stop, or Greater Teleport, it's too easy for melee to fall by the wayside. After all, when you have a hammer, everything looks like nails; but when you have a hammer and a jackhammer, everything looks like pavement. Or something. You get the idea.

Still, I'll grant you, high-power Cleric spells rock the house. And if I found a list that said "Paladin, if you take Cleric spells, these are the spells you need which will best augment being a holy melee brute," I'd be much more onboard with the idea. Until then, it feels like I'm just replacing Paladin with Cleric. I know, it's stupid and idiosyncratic, but that's where my mind is; the Cleric spells should make the Paladin a better Paladin, not a Paladin with Cleric levels (or worse, a Cleric with Paladin levels).

Thankfully the Warblade's Int focus is optional, but you have a point. I didn't mention Crusader because it's 7th level is dead aside from the new maneuver, and it's 8th level is very tempting (new stance+Steely Resolve 15).

Both valid points. Warblade's int focus is optional, and it does have a wealth of other features (including IHS and Fighter feat qualifications) that amply support it. As I said, it's an awesome class.

And I acknowledge that Crusader has a lot of dead levels. Most of its levels simply advance Steely Resolve; other than that, there are a few nice little resistance features (Zealous Surge, Indomitable Soul, Die Hard, Mettle), but nothing that really sings. On the other hand, between flavor and Devoted Spirit (and Steely Resolve + Furious Counterstrike), it does seem to fit a tanking build nicely.

As for tracking the buffs, you'd be doing that with any Paladin build. Being able to prepare your entire list and then cast 90% of it as a Swift action is a lot to keep in mind. The Maneuver Cards web enhancement simplifies this a fair deal.

The Paladin base class does not get a lot of spells per day, nor does it have a particularly high caster level (1/2 Paladin level). Divine Crusader+Sovereign Speaker (+Practised Spellcaster) gives you a significant CL, high enough that your 10min/level buffs will last entire dungeon crawls (and your Round/Level and Minute/level ones can be quickened fairly easily, especially with Battle Blessing).

Precisely. As I mentioned earlier, maneuver cards streamline the whole process; Paladin spells function similarly, in my mind. They're less about having a whole world of powerful options from which to choose, and more about being able to pull a quick advantage out in combat (or, more likely, a pre-combat buff). Having few spells per day and a low CL may mean I have to buff more often, but it also means I have fewer things to keep track of and will generally use more buff spells than offensive spells.

While you do get Divine Grace, you'd also have all 3 of the Diamond Mind Save counters. Those are going to be fairly useful, especially because Concentration is a Warblade and Divine Crusader class skill. The Warblade also gets a bonus feat, and while that bonus feat can't be Weapon Focus (why they didn't do that is beyond me) it can be Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative (or you can set up for Stormguard Warrior).

On a final note, I listed Warblade instead of Crusader because of the recovery mechanic: With so much to keep track of, would you really want to tack on the Crusader's recovery mechanic as well? The Warblade's mechanic may prevent your Battle Blessing goodness but you'd generally use that only once or twice per encounter (for the buffs that don't last more than 1 fight), whereas you'd be using the Warblade's recovery mechanic whenever you needed the maneuvers again.

Now, this is a valid point. Diamond Mind saves are a pretty sweet gig. Also, bonus feats are generally fun stuff. Finally, Warblade's ability to recover quickly and not have to wait for granted maneuver substantially outweighs the Crusader's (admittedly automatic) reliance on granted maneuvers. These are all major selling points of Warblade, among the others listed. But it would mean that, in terms of flavor, I am going with a more offensive than defensive warrior. Crusader is built to work with a party - White Raven for tactics, Stone Dragon for wasting everyone's time overcoming hardness and DR, Devoted Spirit and class features for tanking. But Warblade is a standalone dervish, an offensive machine; its class features and maneuver choices are all about functioning independently and slaughtering things.

So, flavorwise and mechanically, a build with Crusader would put this character in prime position to be the party tank. A build with Warblade would make him a solid melee brutalizer. I'll ask, because I'm open to suggestions: For which role would you recommend that I build this Paladin?

[Big Fau]

I'll ask, because I'm open to suggestions: For which role would you recommend that I build this Paladin?

For this question, I'd have to ask what level you'd be starting at. If it's under 3rd, I'd go Crusader. Anything above that, Warblade. Or you could mix the two, going Crusader X/Warblade Y and get goodies from both (as long as you stagger the levels properly you'd get a solid selection of maneuvers, although that would be more paperwork for you).

For the spell list issue, give me some time and I can whittle down the spells from those domains to the best buffs, and include the Paladin's spell list options (from PHB, SC, CC, and PH2).

I would like to change the subject here to your Hellbred racial traits. Namely how the Infernal Aspect interacts with the Dragonic Aspect feature. Here's what I'm thinking about:


Body (Ex): A hellbred who chooses body as his infernal aspect gains a +4 bonus on saves against poison. In addition, he gains a +2 bonus to Constitution and takes a –2 penalty to Intelligence. The process of the Scourging strengthens his body but weakens his mind.
At 4 HD, he gains a bonus devil-touched feat. At 14 HD, he gains another bonus devil-touched feat.

Spirit (Su): A hellbred who selects the spirit aspect
acquires infernal senses, gaining darkvision out to 30 feet and a +2 racial bonus on Sense Motive checks. In addition, the process of the Scourging leaves him with a strong mind but a weak body. The hellbred gains a +2 bonus to Charisma and takes a –2 penalty to Constitution.
At 6 HD, his darkvision extends to 60 feet. At 9 HD, his darkvision extends to 120 feet. At 12 HD, he gains the ability to see in darkness, even
that created by a deeper darkness spell. At 15 HD, he gains telepathy out to 100 feet. (See MM
316 for details.)

And this part:


If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have.

Effectively, you're looking at racial modifiers of -2 Dex, +2 Cha (for Spirit aspect) or -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, +2 Cha (for Body aspect). In addition to that, the Spirit aspect's benefits are lost due to Dragonborn while the Body aspect can start you with an extra feat depending on how you read the wording of "nonspecific bonus feat". I think it's fairly clear that even if you lose the Devil Touched feat (which Devil Sight would be pretty nice to have since it would let you double-dip) the racial modifiers will dictate what you do class-wise.

If the DM rules you keep the Body aspect's bonus feat because it's "specific" (seeing as you'd have to select Devil's Favor if you didn't have it already), then the winner is clearly the Body aspect just because of the free +2 bonus on Attacks/Saves. If not, it depends on if you go Warblade or Crusader (the former would like not having the Int penalty, the latter clearly wants the +4 Con). If your DM lets you keep the bonus feat you might be able to get another one at 14th.

Of course, this is a moot point if you don't use either Warblade or Crusader (although taking actual Paladin levels isn't that ideal, the Body aspect's modifiers coincide with the Paladin's MAD making it easier on you).

[Red Fel]

For this question, I'd have to ask what level you'd be starting at. If it's under 3rd, I'd go Crusader. Anything above that, Warblade. Or you could mix the two, going Crusader X/Warblade Y and get goodies from both (as long as you stagger the levels properly you'd get a solid selection of maneuvers, although that would be more paperwork for you).

Let's assume a build starting from level 1. It's easier that way. And I'd rather not mix Crusader and Warblade; either one is a solid choice, but zebra-striping them just seems silly, and causes me to miss out on the more solid aspects of either class.


For the spell list issue, give me some time and I can whittle down the spells from those domains to the best buffs, and include the Paladin's spell list options (from PHB, SC, CC, and PH2).

That would be sickeningly awesome, and you would have my digital gratitude.


I would like to change the subject here to your Hellbred racial traits. Namely how the Infernal Aspect interacts with the Dragonic Aspect feature. Here's what I'm thinking about:

*SNIP*

Effectively, you're looking at racial modifiers of -2 Dex, +2 Cha (for Spirit aspect) or -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, +2 Cha (for Body aspect). In addition to that, the Spirit aspect's benefits are lost due to Dragonborn while the Body aspect can start you with an extra feat depending on how you read the wording of "nonspecific bonus feat". I think it's fairly clear that even if you lose the Devil Touched feat (which Devil Sight would be pretty nice to have since it would let you double-dip) the racial modifiers will dictate what you do class-wise.

If the DM rules you keep the Body aspect's bonus feat because it's "specific" (seeing as you'd have to select Devil's Favor if you didn't have it already), then the winner is clearly the Body aspect just because of the free +2 bonus on Attacks/Saves. If not, it depends on if you go Warblade or Crusader (the former would like not having the Int penalty, the latter clearly wants the +4 Con). If your DM lets you keep the bonus feat you might be able to get another one at 14th.

Actually, we went over the Hellbred racial features in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16116948#post16116948). The conclusion that thread reached was:

So it really does seem that all Hellbred retains through the template is flavor, a choice of ability scores, and some minor aesthetic features.

Translation: Everything goes except the ability modifiers from Body or Spirit. Evil Exception is gone, Hellbound is gone, Devil-Touched Feats and vision abilities are gone, skill bonuses and resistances are gone.

All that's left is the +2 Con, -2 Int of Body aspect, or the -2 Con, +2 Cha of Spirit aspect. With Dragonborn, that's either -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int (I think you stuck an extra +2 Cha in there) for Body, or -2 Dex, +2 Cha for Spirit. For a Paladin, I'm inclined to go with the latter, although I acknowledge that +4 Con becomes outrageous for a Warblade build with Diamond Mind save-counters.

Of course, this is a moot point if you don't use either Warblade or Crusader (although taking actual Paladin levels isn't that ideal, the Body aspect's modifiers coincide with the Paladin's MAD making it easier on you).

Yeah, I know, Dex and Int are not high priorities for Paladin. Still, Cha is valuable to this build, if not necessarily king. I'll be honest, if I'm emphasizing class features, Spirit seems more valuable; but if I'm going more straight-up tank-and-spank, I can see the value in Body.

While we're on the subject, it's been raised before in this thread but not formally addressed - Dragonborn aspects. For example, Biff pointed out:

Heart with Entangling Exhalation can keep an entire encounter debuffed and make them more likely to attack you as they won't be able to reach anyone else.

It's a position I'd not considered before; I was accustomed to thinking of a breath weapon as a poor replacement for anything else you could be doing that round; ex flight and vision upgrades, on the other hand, are extremely valuable.

I then started thinking about it. Apart from the Blindsense, most of the Mind upgrades can be accomplished with magic items or spells; yes, those can be suppressed, but a torch still works in an AMF. Wings is a fantastic aspect, since ex flight is non-dispellable, but it's heavily feat-taxed if you wear more than light armor. And if we go with a tanking build, heavy plate becomes almost a must.

But a breath weapon, with a single feat, can shut enemies down for 1d4 rounds. That's actually kind of potent, although it eats up an action.

So what do you think? Which is both effective mechanically, and flavorful?

[IronFist]

It's an interesting idea. SSN definitely has fantastic flavor for the build - balancing the good and evil, etc. Working into SSN from a Paladin perspective seems frightful, given that SSN seems to be built around a monk chassis, requiring IUS and providing monk features, while Paladin is... Well, one is a light-footed light-armored unarmed ninja, and the other is a heavy clanking tank. The flavor fits, but the armor chafes.

Actually, for the Shadow Sun Ninja Iron Chef, I was considering a Paladin/Swordsage with Serenity. Never got around to cooking it, though.

[Red Fel]

Actually, for the Shadow Sun Ninja Iron Chef, I was considering a Paladin/Swordsage with Serenity. Never got around to cooking it, though.

... Huh. Now there's an idea.

It makes the Pally substantially less MAD, even without Monk-type classes, by streamlining his class features with his caster stat. Admittedly, any other class I took would not be helped by this feat unless DM said so. (I won't rely on that.) Still, there is merit to it.

... On the other hand, Spirit aspect can give me a +2 Cha; none of the racial features do anything for Wis.

... On the other hand, no modifier means no penalty, and nothing stops Humans from taking Monk or Monk-type classes. And it would give an excuse to take Body aspect, with that juicy +4 Con.

The SSN still has the problem of the chassis, though. Monk-likes are based around unarmed blows, light or no armor, and high mobility; Paladin-types are based around a big weapon, big armor, and smashery or light casting. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around a marriage of the two.

[IronFist]

... Huh. Now there's an idea.

It makes the Pally substantially less MAD, even without Monk-type classes, by streamlining his class features with his caster stat. Admittedly, any other class I took would not be helped by this feat unless DM said so. (I won't rely on that.) Still, there is merit to it.

... On the other hand, Spirit aspect can give me a +2 Cha; none of the racial features do anything for Wis.

... On the other hand, no modifier means no penalty, and nothing stops Humans from taking Monk or Monk-type classes. And it would give an excuse to take Body aspect, with that juicy +4 Con.

The SSN still has the problem of the chassis, though. Monk-likes are based around unarmed blows, light or no armor, and high mobility; Paladin-types are based around a big weapon, big armor, and smashery or light casting. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around a marriage of the two.
Shou Disciple might help. It's a Monk type that can work with armor and weapons.

[Red Fel]

Shou Disciple might help. It's a Monk type that can work with armor and weapons.

Hmm. Shou Disciple is somewhat more effective, true. And it's a small PrC, so it's not a major level investment. But it has a high feat tax (Dodge, IUS and Weapon Focus (Unarmed)). And it's still limited to light armor.

The class seems almost schizophrenic - first, it requires heavy investment in unarmed strikes. Then its capstone lets you apply Flurry of Blows to any melee weapon, which seems to run contra to the initial investment in unarmed strikes.

It's fine if you're playing a Monk who wants to use a broadsword, for example. But I don't know that it really does anything for this build.

Out of curiosity, though, are there any classes that are more explicitly Monk/Paladin integrated? That might be an interesting direction for this character - an ascetic holy warrior, in effect.

[Big Fau]

Let's assume a build starting from level 1. It's easier that way. And I'd rather not mix Crusader and Warblade; either one is a solid choice, but zebra-striping them just seems silly, and causes me to miss out on the more solid aspects of either class.

That would be sickeningly awesome, and you would have my digital gratitude.

Actually, we went over the Hellbred racial features in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16116948#post16116948). The conclusion that thread reached was:

Translation: Everything goes except the ability modifiers from Body or Spirit. Evil Exception is gone, Hellbound is gone, Devil-Touched Feats and vision abilities are gone, skill bonuses and resistances are gone.

All that's left is the +2 Con, -2 Int of Body aspect, or the -2 Con, +2 Cha of Spirit aspect. With Dragonborn, that's either -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int (I think you stuck an extra +2 Cha in there) for Body, or -2 Dex, +2 Cha for Spirit. For a Paladin, I'm inclined to go with the latter, although I acknowledge that +4 Con becomes outrageous for a Warblade build with Diamond Mind save-counters.

Yeah, I know, Dex and Int are not high priorities for Paladin. Still, Cha is valuable to this build, if not necessarily king. I'll be honest, if I'm emphasizing class features, Spirit seems more valuable; but if I'm going more straight-up tank-and-spank, I can see the value in Body.

While we're on the subject, it's been raised before in this thread but not formally addressed - Dragonborn aspects. For example, Biff pointed out:

It's a position I'd not considered before; I was accustomed to thinking of a breath weapon as a poor replacement for anything else you could be doing that round; ex flight and vision upgrades, on the other hand, are extremely valuable.

I then started thinking about it. Apart from the Blindsense, most of the Mind upgrades can be accomplished with magic items or spells; yes, those can be suppressed, but a torch still works in an AMF. Wings is a fantastic aspect, since ex flight is non-dispellable, but it's heavily feat-taxed if you wear more than light armor. And if we go with a tanking build, heavy plate becomes almost a must.

But a breath weapon, with a single feat, can shut enemies down for 1d4 rounds. That's actually kind of potent, although it eats up an action.

So what do you think? Which is both effective mechanically, and flavorful?

You're right, I tacked on a +2 Cha by mistake. The Breath Weapon debuff is going to be huge if you do go Divine Crusader, as it gives you more time to mess with them (like if your buffs get dispelled). Spells can also replace the Wings entirely (Travel domain). Body is still really good, albeit +2 Cha is excellent.

Assuming a 1st level build, Crusader. You'd get a nice Steely Resolve 10, good maneuver selection, and the only thing you'd really lose out on is the Indomitable Soul ability (as it doesn't stack with Divine Grace) and higher level maneuvers, although you've got a good variety from Crusader 7. You may want to go Crusader 8 and dump a level of PrC Pally, if only for the Stance and Steely Resolve increase.


Out of curiosity, though, are there any classes that are more explicitly Monk/Paladin integrated? That might be an interesting direction for this character - an ascetic holy warrior, in effect.

Argent Fist, Faiths of Eberron. Silver Flame PrC, and fairly bland unless you specialize in Stunning Fist+Smite Evil (it gives a +10 bonus to the save DC of Stunning Fist attempts used on a Smite attempt). It does allow you to wear Mithral Fullplate and still get Wis to AC, but it requires a minimum of 4 levels in Paladin and doesn't advance the spellcasting at all (so if you take Argent Fist substitute the spells out with the ACF from CC).

[ArcturusV]

On the Subject of Cleric Casting:

As you mentioned, you want to be a bruiser. This actually makes it somewhat easy to figure out what Cleric Spells you'll want to have, that are fairly absent on the Paladin list. Basically three categories of spells you'll be looking at:

Divination, Healing, Buffing.

Healing is pretty straight forward, it's useful to have. Picking up a spell like Lesser Vigor is never going to hurt. Other than that the only real one that stands out that you might want to pick up (That a Paladin wouldn't normally get) is Heal. Otherwise it doesn't really matter so terribly much. Either Paladins have it (like neutralize poison, remove curse, break enchantment) or it's not really a option that's very good anyway (Mass Cure Light Wounds).

Buffing, also pretty straight forward. the one obvious buff the Paladin is naturally missing from their list is Bear's Endurance for some reason, so you'll get that. Magic Vestments, because who doesn't want to be able to magic up their armor before a fight? Freedom of Movement, obvious choice, get it off the Cleric list, Wind Walk, handle the "My enemy is levitating and shooting crossbows at me" sort of issue.

Divination is I think the bigger payoff though. Gives you "out of combat" options that are decent and a role to play in the party other than Smiting and being "Jackass moral compass". You already got the Evildar, can round that out with the others, Gooddar, Chaosdar, Lawdar. Find Traps, useful. Augury, saved my party's asses the gods only know how many times, Commune, Divination, yes please.

I mean, yes, you could do MORE with Cleric Levels/Casting. But I'm presuming you want to stay melee based. And really those are powerful options in and of itself without getting into higher level magics.

I mean yeah, probably not the most "optimal" stuff out there. But it fits the theme. And you'll probably be happy with the selection at the table. I doubt anyone but the most Op-Fu'd person at the table is really going to be upset that your Cleric with a touch of Paladin isn't doing Angel Summoning or something.

Edit: Paladin/Monk thing:

Not one that I've been satisfied with. Monk has a lot of PrCs though that give a few "Paladin toys" to the monk. For example Shintao Monk comes with the At-Will Evildar on top of a Smite Evil as well (And generally a few other tricks I find handy for a monk). Similarly Initiate of Pithas Sophia has a fairly "Paladinesque" feel to some of the abilities that it gets while still firming being mostly monk flavored.

But I can't really recall any Paladin who gets Monk Powers sort of option.

[Xerlith]

Stuff.

Yes, but then I'd argue that those aren't really his domain slots, since those are his spell list slots, by


Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level).

Though it's purely academic, since it depends on the DM.
Also
*glances at own signature*
Well. :smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

You're right, I tacked on a +2 Cha by mistake. The Breath Weapon debuff is going to be huge if you do go Divine Crusader, as it gives you more time to mess with them (like if your buffs get dispelled). Spells can also replace the Wings entirely (Travel domain). Body is still really good, albeit +2 Cha is excellent.

Hmm. So the Heart aspect is a good choice if I end up doing things which will require me to step out of melee, like casting a spell. Makes sense.

And I agree, Wings can be replaced with magic items/spells, particularly ones which care less about what kind of armor a character is wearing. As long as you're fairly careful and fast on your feet, you're less likely to have those dispelled.


Assuming a 1st level build, Crusader. You'd get a nice Steely Resolve 10, good maneuver selection, and the only thing you'd really lose out on is the Indomitable Soul ability (as it doesn't stack with Divine Grace) and higher level maneuvers, although you've got a good variety from Crusader 7. You may want to go Crusader 8 and dump a level of PrC Pally, if only for the Stance and Steely Resolve increase.

Yeah, Indomitable Soul is a bit of an empty feature for a Paladin. Steely Resolve is nice, though. And yes, I suppose I could drop a level of PP for Crs 8.

Also, I only just noticed that PP doesn't feature the Paladin prohibition on multiclassing. That's pretty nice. If it could take Paladin ACFs, that'd be pretty sweet, actually.


Argent Fist, Faiths of Eberron. Silver Flame PrC, and fairly bland unless you specialize in Stunning Fist+Smite Evil (it gives a +10 bonus to the save DC of Stunning Fist attempts used on a Smite attempt). It does allow you to wear Mithral Fullplate and still get Wis to AC, but it requires a minimum of 4 levels in Paladin and doesn't advance the spellcasting at all (so if you take Argent Fist substitute the spells out with the ACF from CC).

Hmm. On the one hand, it's precisely what IronFist and I were discussing - it advances monk and paladin, keys off of monk and paladin abilities, and integrates the two fairly well in a more heavily armored chassis. On the other hand, your point about spells is absolutely right, and it does have a bit of a feat tax. Also, it's specific to the Silver Flame, and while that could be refluffed, I'm not a big fan of those guys anyway.

I think I'll pass on the monkadin, honestly.


On the Subject of Cleric Casting:

As you mentioned, you want to be a bruiser. This actually makes it somewhat easy to figure out what Cleric Spells you'll want to have, that are fairly absent on the Paladin list. Basically three categories of spells you'll be looking at:

Divination, Healing, Buffing.

Healing is pretty straight forward, it's useful to have. Picking up a spell like Lesser Vigor is never going to hurt. Other than that the only real one that stands out that you might want to pick up (That a Paladin wouldn't normally get) is Heal. Otherwise it doesn't really matter so terribly much. Either Paladins have it (like neutralize poison, remove curse, break enchantment) or it's not really a option that's very good anyway (Mass Cure Light Wounds).

Here's the thing. In combat, I can't help but feel that my actions would be best served by using as much of my action as possible to attack and put down threats. I haven't read the casting time on many of those spells, so off the top of my head I don't know how many I could cast in combat while still smashing faces.

Out of combat, from what I've read, wands are a very cost-effective way to heal, and save spell slots for stuff that's harder to do, or requires spells for more somethingsomething.

Point is, am I going to be using heal spells all that much?


Buffing, also pretty straight forward. the one obvious buff the Paladin is naturally missing from their list is Bear's Endurance for some reason, so you'll get that. Magic Vestments, because who doesn't want to be able to magic up their armor before a fight? Freedom of Movement, obvious choice, get it off the Cleric list, Wind Walk, handle the "My enemy is levitating and shooting crossbows at me" sort of issue.

See, this makes sense. I could handle my own pre-combat buffs. With Battle Blessing, I could even launch some on the fly. But with limited per-day uses, would I need to Persist these to get the full benefit?


Divination is I think the bigger payoff though. Gives you "out of combat" options that are decent and a role to play in the party other than Smiting and being "Jackass moral compass". You already got the Evildar, can round that out with the others, Gooddar, Chaosdar, Lawdar. Find Traps, useful. Augury, saved my party's asses the gods only know how many times, Commune, Divination, yes please.

That may be one of the most useful things anyone has ever suggested to me about casting. No offense to everyone else in this thread, but this last one about out-of-combat utility spells for a primarily melee-focused character just makes so much sense. Arcturus, you have outdone yourself.

And if you ever call one of my Paladins a "Jackass moral compass again," I will Smite Evil you so hard. So hard.


I mean, yes, you could do MORE with Cleric Levels/Casting. But I'm presuming you want to stay melee based. And really those are powerful options in and of itself without getting into higher level magics.

I mean yeah, probably not the most "optimal" stuff out there. But it fits the theme. And you'll probably be happy with the selection at the table. I doubt anyone but the most Op-Fu'd person at the table is really going to be upset that your Cleric with a touch of Paladin isn't doing Angel Summoning or something.

I think you're hitting the exact right note with these suggestions. The goal is "Paladin with useful spells," not "Cleric who wades into combat." It's not designed to be super-optimized, just to be functional and playable. I like it a lot.

And I'm serious about that "Jackass moral compass" thing.


Edit: Paladin/Monk thing:

Not one that I've been satisfied with. Monk has a lot of PrCs though that give a few "Paladin toys" to the monk. For example Shintao Monk comes with the At-Will Evildar on top of a Smite Evil as well (And generally a few other tricks I find handy for a monk). Similarly Initiate of Pithas Sophia has a fairly "Paladinesque" feel to some of the abilities that it gets while still firming being mostly monk flavored.

But I can't really recall any Paladin who gets Monk Powers sort of option.

Yeah, I'm noticing that. I'm really losing what little enthusiasm I had for the monkadin. I'm leaning back towards the shining metal tank/ gleaming mass of holy destruction angle.

[ArcturusV]

Well, the thing about healing spells? Kinda? I mean not so much because you're a Paladin. Honestly as much as "In combat healing suuuucks!" that you hear... sometimes you need that Triage. Sometimes the difference between someone rerolling a character and surviving a fight is because you tagged them with a Cure Minor Wounds when they were bleeding out. But as a Paladin you can Lay on Hands for that, so it's not as important. Heal is important because, well, it's a significant pop of HP in a single blast. You can take yourself from flirting with death to full HP in a single go. Not to mention you can just end up one shotting undead with it as well.

I mean you PROBABLY won't be doing healing in combat. But you might want to be aware of it. Sometimes you just need to have a healing spell prepped.

As for the buffs? Hmm... I mean... there are people who are going to TELL you that you have to Persist because you'll only have 4/4/4/4 per day at best. I'm admittedly lazier than that. Persisting of the usual DMM variety seems pretty feat intensive. Paladins are already feat intensive. So rather than pick up 3 feats for one trick, (And you'll need feats), just spend one and get Scribe Scroll. Scrolls are cheap and effective, and with only needing Caster level 1 if you took your first level in Cleric you could snag it up from the start. If you haven't been a magic item crafter before? It's DIRT cheap. It really is. I know people get scared off by XP costs thinking that they'll end up in some nightmare scenario where the party is level 10 and they're only level 5 because they've been crafting... that never happens. Ever. The worst you'll ever run into is there will be one fight (And only one fight) where your teammates maybe just barely hit the next level and you're like one encounter of XP shy of that level. Even that isn't really guaranteed to happen. Plus it's pretty cheap and scrolls don't really ding your WBL at all.

At the very least? It's like anything else. Regardless of DMM Persistance, Scrolling, etc, you can get by just fine without. I mean most buffs have durations in Minutes/level. Meaning one casting per encounter. So you're not that badly set. You won't be able to do all the buffs, all the time. But you can't with DMM either unless you abuse something like having 20 nightsticks on you, your Turning Pool just isn't big enough for more than 2-3. Well, unless you sunk a lot of extra feats into Extra Turning. Then again Persisting is Feat Intensive Anyway, and Paladins are Feat Intensive characters.

[Red Fel]

Well, the thing about healing spells? Kinda? I mean not so much because you're a Paladin. Honestly as much as "In combat healing suuuucks!" that you hear... sometimes you need that Triage. Sometimes the difference between someone rerolling a character and surviving a fight is because you tagged them with a Cure Minor Wounds when they were bleeding out. But as a Paladin you can Lay on Hands for that, so it's not as important. Heal is important because, well, it's a significant pop of HP in a single blast. You can take yourself from flirting with death to full HP in a single go. Not to mention you can just end up one shotting undead with it as well.

I mean you PROBABLY won't be doing healing in combat. But you might want to be aware of it. Sometimes you just need to have a healing spell prepped.

Valid point. You're right, LoH is decent triage for in-combat, but I'll want something to handle big chunks of damage.


As for the buffs? Hmm... I mean... there are people who are going to TELL you that you have to Persist because you'll only have 4/4/4/4 per day at best. I'm admittedly lazier than that. Persisting of the usual DMM variety seems pretty feat intensive. Paladins are already feat intensive. So rather than pick up 3 feats for one trick, (And you'll need feats), just spend one and get Scribe Scroll. Scrolls are cheap and effective, and with only needing Caster level 1 if you took your first level in Cleric you could snag it up from the start. If you haven't been a magic item crafter before? It's DIRT cheap. It really is. I know people get scared off by XP costs thinking that they'll end up in some nightmare scenario where the party is level 10 and they're only level 5 because they've been crafting... that never happens. Ever. The worst you'll ever run into is there will be one fight (And only one fight) where your teammates maybe just barely hit the next level and you're like one encounter of XP shy of that level. Even that isn't really guaranteed to happen. Plus it's pretty cheap and scrolls don't really ding your WBL at all.

Hmm... Scribe Scroll. Now there's an idea. I'll be honest, I hadn't even considered it, but it's a very valid point. Never tried it before, but there's a first time for everything, I suppose.


At the very least? It's like anything else. Regardless of DMM Persistance, Scrolling, etc, you can get by just fine without. I mean most buffs have durations in Minutes/level. Meaning one casting per encounter. So you're not that badly set. You won't be able to do all the buffs, all the time. But you can't with DMM either unless you abuse something like having 20 nightsticks on you, your Turning Pool just isn't big enough for more than 2-3. Well, unless you sunk a lot of extra feats into Extra Turning. Then again Persisting is Feat Intensive Anyway, and Paladins are Feat Intensive characters.

Yeah, I'm noticing a lot of that. Feats will be a tricky beast for this build.

So, hmm. If I do take Cleric spells, fine and good. Divination for out-of-combat utility, maybe some extra healing, and good use of buffs. If I don't, scrolls can help augment my buffery, and save a heal for emergencies, fine. Avoid DMM Persist, that I can do. Scribe Scroll.

This is very helpful on the casting front. I still need to look at my class options.

For example, say I were to go Paladin/Hellreaver. Since Hellreaver does not advance spellcasting, I get at most 10 levels of Paladin, that's 1 1st-level and 1 2nd-level spell per day. That's bubkes. I could trade Paladin Mount for Charging Smite ACF, and Paladin spellcasting for Holy Warrior ACF, and go full melee.

Suppose instead I were to do a mix of Paladin, Crusader, and other stuff. Having spells and maneuvers guarantees I can have actions to take in any given round, be it melee, maneuver or spell. But the build would give me the flexibility to optimize around any of the three, rather than just focusing on one. That's both good and bad, I suppose.

Or, alternatively, I could go for a refluffed Fist of Raziel or Ordained Champion. Naturally, I would need to keep my spellcasting for this, since both classes require a spell. However, it wouldn't be a casting-oriented build, as I'd see one of my primary functions in OC as burning spell slots for boosts, and my primary function in FoR as smiting the ever-loving crap out of stuff.

These seem to be the three options, right now, unless I'm forgetting something:
Paladin/Hellreaver. Pure melee, pure ferocity. Spec for smashing.
Paladin/ToB classes/X. Goal is versatility; melee, smites, maneuvers, and a side order of spellcasting. Maybe X is some kind of Cleric, or Divine Crusader? Feel like I should just take Cleric if I want spellcasting.
Paladin/Ordained Champion/Fist of Raziel. Burn slots to smash vigorously, then proceed to smash vigorously. May require refluff.
Note that in the above illustration, we can replace "Paladin" with "Prestige Paladin," although it might require some changes if I want to use ACFs.

Given these options, I think I've successfully ruled out Wings aspect as well, since any choice would at least require medium (if not heavy) armor, and that's a feat tax I don't want to pay. Mind is still a possibility, albeit one that gets easily replaced by magic items. Heart is also a strong option, but it would require Entangling Exhalation to become truly effective - again, feat tax. With regard to Hellbred ability scores, I'm inclined to take Spirit, for a net -2 Dex +2 Cha, simply because while +4 Con is nice, +2 Cha feels like it might do more with my Paladin and Paladin-related abilities.

So all that remains is to set my Aspects, pick my Classes and level selections, grab some ACFs, and start snatching up feats. Let's go, folks - what have we got?

[Big Fau]

Dragon

Greater Magic Fang
True Seeing
Dragon Ally
Dominate Monster
Luck

Entropic Shield
Aid
Protection from Energy
Freedom of Movement
Break Enchantment
Spell Turning
Moment of Prescience
Miracle
Travel

Fly
Dimension Door
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Astral Projection
Trickery

Invisibility
Nondetection
Polymorph Any Object
Time Stop
Charm

Good Hope
Charm Monster
Geas/Quest
Dominate Monster
Illusion

Silent Image
Minor Image
Displacement
Mislead
Trade

Fabricate
True Seeing
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Mind Blank
Protection

Sanctuary
Shield Other
Protection from Energy
Spell Immunity
Antimagic Field
Mind Blank
Prismatic Sphere
Wealth

Alarm
Glyph of Warding
Forbiddance
Cavern

Meld into Stone
Passwall
Maw of Stone
Earthquake
Imprisonment
Metal

Wall of Iron
Blade Barrier
Iron Body
Air

Obscuring Mist
Wind Wall
Gaseous Form
Air Walk
Control Weather
Elemental Swarm
Good

Protection from Evil
Aid
Magic Circle against Evil
Blade Barrier
Holy Aura
Summon Monster 9
Nobility

Divine Favor
Magic Vestment
Geas/Quest
Storm of Vengeance
Storm

Entropic Shield
Summon Monster VI
Control Weather
Whirlwind
Death

Death Ward
Knowledge

Divination
True Seeing
Foresight
Fate

Augury
Status
Vision
Mind Blank
Foresight
Planning

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Heroes' Feast
Greater Scrying
Time Stop
Time

True Strike
Haste
Freedom of Movement
Permanency
Contingency
Foresight
Time Stop
Rune

Glyph of Warding
Explosive Runes
Lesser Planar Binding
Greater Glyph of Warding
Teleportation Circle
Strength

Enlarge Person
Bull's Strength
Magic Vestment
Spell immunity
Righteous Might
Spell

Mage Armor
Silence
Anyspell
Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer
Break Enchantment
Greater Anyspell
Limited Wish
Antimagic Field
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Destruction

Disintegrate
Law

Hold Monster
Summon Monster 9
Retribution

Shield of Faith
Bear's Endurance
Fire Shield
Spell Turning
Healing

Heal
Regenerate
Mass Heal
Sun

Fire Shield
Fire Seeds
Sunbeam
Prismatic Sphere
Family

Bless
Shield Other
Imbue with Spell Ability
Heroes' Feast
Refuge
Prismatic Sphere
Glory

Holy Sword
Gate

I didn't cross-reference that with the Paladin class list, so there will be some overlap. However, those are the major buffs (even Iron Body is good, so long as you know what you are up against can't overcome that).

And now the Paladin list:

PHB:
Bless
Divine Favor
Protection from Chaos/Evil
Shield Other
Prayer
Death Ward
Holy Sword (probably better than GMW for you)

SpC:
Blessed Aim
Deafening Clang
Moment of Clarity
Resurgence
Rhino's Rush
Silverbeard
Vision of Glory
Warning Shout
Angelskin
Divine Protection
Fell the Greatest Foe (makes sense for a Dragonborn)
Hand of Divinity
Knight's Move
Strength of Stone
Zeal
Find the Gap
Hand of the Faithful
Mass Resurgence
Righteous Fury
Weapon of the Deity
Draconic Might
Favor of the Martyr
Lawful Sword
Sacred Haven
Lesser Visage of the Deity

PH2:
Crown of Smiting
Blessing of the Righteous (its the little things)
Divine Retaliation (this one is fun if Extended or Persisted)

CC:
Benediction
Aligned Aura
Seed of Life (actually not bad for a healing spell, at least with Battle Blessing)

A lot of these spells are little baby buffs, but those add up really fast. And that's the whole point of the Pally spell list: Cheap buffs that turn you into a truck. I recommend looking into the spells and finding the ones that affect the entire party (Haste, Bless, Prayer, Aligned Aura, Magic Circle against X) and layering those before combat (especially once you get Time Stop, and you very well will).

PS: Anyspell and Greater Anyspell give you Sor/Wiz spells to play with. That's a lot of options, and the lower-level one is a great choice for Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer from the same domain works wonders to get more castings of Anyspell (fun fact: You can put both in a Wand).

[ArcturusV]

Oh, reminds me on the list of odd paladin spells. Don't overlook Estanna's Stew. It's... kinda fun. I'm not making claims on power level or anything. But A) You get free food and unlike Create Food and Water stuff, its actually mentioned as tasting good, and a single casting can fill your party (And do some light healing, so why not?). But the reason I really like it, B) You can chuck the stew onto undead dealing 5d6+5 damage.

It's silly, I admit. But hell, as a Paladin you know all your spells anyway. Sometimes it's fun to just Battle Blessing it into a swift action and throw a pot of holy stew in a lich's face.

... it's the little things in life which matter.

Plus again it's one of those "My Paladin can do other things than smite" sort of ideas.

... and I laugh at the idea of your Paladin with Craft Scroll creating something like 50 scrolls of Estanna's Stew, using it to arm a peasant mob to fight off zombies... by chucking food at them.

I eman come on. Moments like that are why you gotta love a Paladin. :smallbiggrin: "We shall fight the undead scourge... with cooking!"

[Big Fau]

Oh, reminds me on the list of odd paladin spells. Don't overlook Estanna's Stew. It's... kinda fun. I'm not making claims on power level or anything. But A) You get free food and unlike Create Food and Water stuff, its actually mentioned as tasting good, and a single casting can fill your party (And do some light healing, so why not?). But the reason I really like it, B) You can chuck the stew onto undead dealing 5d6+5 damage.

It's silly, I admit. But hell, as a Paladin you know all your spells anyway. Sometimes it's fun to just Battle Blessing it into a swift action and throw a pot of holy stew in a lich's face.

... it's the little things in life which matter.

Plus again it's one of those "My Paladin can do other things than smite" sort of ideas.

... and I laugh at the idea of your Paladin with Craft Scroll creating something like 50 scrolls of Estanna's Stew, using it to arm a peasant mob to fight off zombies... by chucking food at them.

I eman come on. Moments like that are why you gotta love a Paladin. :smallbiggrin: "We shall fight the undead scourge... with cooking!"

Sauce please, I have to see this spell for myself.

And yes, pun entirely intended.

[ArcturusV]

Book of Exalted Deeds, page 99. Forgot it's also a Druid and a Cleric spell. So your Druid can be throwing holy stew at people too.

[Big Fau]

Book of Exalted Deeds, page 99. Forgot it's also a Druid and a Cleric spell. So your Druid can be throwing holy stew at people too.

I forgot entirely about Sanctified spells. Given that the OP is LG, those are an option for any build that keeps spellcasting. Greater Luminous Armor is quite good.

[ArcturusV]

Ah yeah, Sanctified. I hadn't even been thinking of those. Good call. At the very least he can handle some of the "Paladins suck because they can't..." with them, like taking 1d3 strength in order to get 100' of good flight, I suppose. Not like Paladins don't have Restoration on their list to recover the damage.

[Red Fel]

Lots and lots of stuff about spells!
Wow. Okay. Huh, where to begin?

Oh, here's good. These spells look potent and fun.

I particularly like the soup.

Draconic Might in particular is absolutely perfect, both in terms of flavor and of effect.

I get the distinct impression that the Holy Warrior ACF is off the table. I concede; these are valuable contributions to the build.

Yeah, my spells/day will suck unless I have a lot of levels invested in Paladin or an advances-Paladin-spellcasting class (e.g. OC, FoR). That said? Yikes. Me likey.

Okay, so if I'm going with a spell-slinging Paladin, I'm thinking I'll probably have to minimize any ToB-type levels, since those won't advance my casting. That's not a bad thing; that just means I'll use spells instead of maneuvers, for the most part. It also means I'm less likely to take Hellreaver, as that class doesn't advance my casting either. That is a loss. Then again, a one- or two-level dip into Hellreaver still provides useful abilities. Same with ToB.

So where does this leave us? Obviously, at least one level of Paladin or PP. With regard to prestige classes, Fist and Ordained (refluffed) are looking better and better. So how do they all fit together?

[Big Fau]

So how do they all fit together?

Like a jigsaw puzzle made out of low-consistency Jello™. But damn is it tasty.

If you go pure Paladin, take Serenity and for Bahamut's sake pump your Wis as high as possible (which means Body aspect, since you'd be forsaking Cha). The problem is the spells come late. Really late. Get access to the Spell Domain somehow (not sure without using SS, which you can do with pure Pally it just doesn't give you Greater Manyspell) so you can use Mnemonic Enhancer + Anyspell to expand your spell list. Or focus on buffing up your Smite Evil (which can be pumped nicely, although you'd be using a lot of feats on Extra Smiting).

Fist of Raziel I'd have to look at. I'm AFB, so I can't give any advice outside of what's been given.

[Xerlith]

The better option would be simply slapping the Prestige Paladin at whatever divine caster you use as the entry - thanks to this all the juicy Paladin buffs are open for casting, along with some more, better buffs. IMO - a good deal.

[Red Fel]

Like a jigsaw puzzle made out of low-consistency Jello™. But damn is it tasty.

If you go pure Paladin, take Serenity and for Bahamut's sake pump your Wis as high as possible (which means Body aspect, since you'd be forsaking Cha). The problem is the spells come late. Really late. Get access to the Spell Domain somehow (not sure without using SS, which you can do with pure Pally it just doesn't give you Greater Manyspell) so you can use Mnemonic Enhancer + Anyspell to expand your spell list. Or focus on buffing up your Smite Evil (which can be pumped nicely, although you'd be using a lot of feats on Extra Smiting).

Fist of Raziel I'd have to look at. I'm AFB, so I can't give any advice outside of what's been given.


The better option would be simply slapping the Prestige Paladin at whatever divine caster you use as the entry - thanks to this all the juicy Paladin buffs are open for casting, along with some more, better buffs. IMO - a good deal.

Okay. So now that I'm considering spells again, it looks like Cleric or Divine Crusader may be back on the table, at least for a dip. And it sounds like, once again, the consensus is that, even with PrCs, Paladin just isn't good enough without spells. So let's turn things around, and throw Cleric back into the blender.

So let's say, hypothetically, I opened with a Cleric of Bahamut, and took PP instead of P-regular, advancing Cleric casting. Going the opposite direction (opening with Paladin, switching into Divine Crusader) doesn't seem to work all that well, since it takes at least 7 levels before I can touch DC. But Cleric -> PP still gets me access to Fist of Raz or Ordained Champ, in the long run, if I choose that direction.

So how would I do it? From what I see here, I would need Cleric 6 to get the +4 BAB necessary for PP. After that, I could take levels of PP or OC, get my BAB up a bit further and take FoR.

Frankly, if I were willing to abandon Paladin altogether (unthinkable when I started this process) I could bypass things substantially; take Cleric 5, OC 5, and Fist 10. Gives me a total CL of 17. Might want to refluff OC to swap the War-emphasis out for something more Bahamut-y.

Thoughts?

[Piggy Knowles]

Don't forget that you can qualify for Ordained Champion at level 4, so you can start off Cleric 4/OC 5/Fist of Raziel 10. Makes things a little smoother. For that last level, there sadly isn't really anything that can get you both +1 BAB and +1 level of cleric casting easily, so you will end up finishing at +18 BAB if you want to keep 9th-level spells. But you're only one point behind for most of your career, which is pretty nice.

You'll be three levels behind a regular cleric in casting, but close to full BAB. Unlike a typical persistomancer cleric, you'll be using those turn attempts for smiting, which you're pretty good at.

Relevant to your interests is the Initiate of Bahamut feat. It's from Dragon Magic, and it gives you a couple of additional Smite Evils, as well as some solid spells added to your cleric list. Make sure to take Initiate of Bahamut, Power Attack and Awesome Smite, and you can play a very paladinish cleric with that build, with a pretty awesome smiting ability.

[Red Fel]

Don't forget that you can qualify for Ordained Champion at level 4, so you can start off Cleric 4/OC 5/Fist of Raziel 10. Makes things a little smoother. For that last level, there sadly isn't really anything that can get you both +1 BAB and +1 level of cleric casting easily, so you will end up finishing at +18 BAB if you want to keep 9th-level spells. But you're only one point behind for most of your career, which is pretty nice.

You'll be three levels behind a regular cleric in casting, but close to full BAB. Unlike a typical persistomancer cleric, you'll be using those turn attempts for smiting, which you're pretty good at.

Hmm... It's an interesting point. That extra floating level could prove useful. I like it.


Relevant to your interests is the Initiate of Bahamut feat. It's from Dragon Magic, and it gives you a couple of additional Smite Evils, as well as some solid spells added to your cleric list. Make sure to take Initiate of Bahamut, Power Attack and Awesome Smite, and you can play a very paladinish cleric with that build, with a pretty awesome smiting ability.

Oh.

My.

Gar.

That feat is sick in all the right ways. Gives me 2/day smite, plus bonus spells, including Aspect of the Platinum Dragon?! Yes please, do want!

Piggy, you are my friend.

EDIT: A thought occurs to me. We have diverged from a key point I had hoped to maintain, and that is the avoidance of refluff. Yet here we have a Cleric/OC/FoR, with a floating level, and that is a good thing, but for the fluff. What it needs, I think, is an alternative.

I think, at this point, we're looking at not one, but two builds. One is the Cleric/OC/FoR/X, and that still needs to be laid out, feated, with commonly-used spells listed. That's fine. But the other should be as devoid of refluff as possible. So let's go back and look over our notes: Are there any class combinations we can pull together that will require absolutely no alterations to fluff or mechanics to fly in this build?

[Xerlith]

Cleric, paladin and Favored Soul as the base come to mind immediately as a base.
Then there is the Platinum Knight prestige class that has just the fluff you need. It's not too good though.
Divine Crusader could be an addition, but isn't really good, build-wise.

There are really not that many options if you want to avoid refluffing.

Paladin4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind5/Sanctified Mind+5/Crusader5
Pick serenity, you're now Wis-driven.

No refluffing, thanks to the Sweeping Strike's wording your maneuvers affect two squares instead of one. You have the psionic part now though.

A variant of it would be Cleric4/Crus1/Sanctified Mind1/War Mind5/Sanctified Mind+5/Crus+5
Casts as 9th level Cleric and has full War Mind manifesting. Also, you get 7th level maneuvers.

Cleric4/Crusader1/PrPal3/Platinum Knight5/Cleric+4/Crus+3 fits your fluff perfectly.

[Red Fel]

Cleric, paladin and Favored Soul as the base come to mind immediately as a base.
Then there is the Platinum Knight prestige class that has just the fluff you need. It's not too good though.
Divine Crusader could be an addition, but isn't really good, build-wise.

Hmm. I've looked at Platinum Knight before. Not all that impressive, although it does stack with Paladin... But it's remarkably situational.

I agree, it's possible but not perfect.


There are really not that many options if you want to avoid refluffing.

Paladin4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind5/Sanctified Mind+5/Crusader5
Pick serenity, you're now Wis-driven.

No refluffing, thanks to the Sweeping Strike's wording your maneuvers affect two squares instead of one. You have the psionic part now though.

A variant of it would be Cleric4/Crus1/Sanctified Mind1/War Mind5/Sanctified Mind+5/Crus+5
Casts as 9th level Cleric and has full War Mind manifesting. Also, you get 7th level maneuvers.

Now, this is an interesting idea. I haven't played Psionics in ages. This would get me cleric levels, psionics, and maneuvers, which is an outrageously potent combination. Since the build is likely to be a little MAD anyway, may as well take advantage.

I'd need to read more about Sanctified Mind and War Mind, but I like what I see so far.


Cleric4/Crusader1/PrPal3/Platinum Knight5/Cleric+4/Crus+3 fits your fluff perfectly.

Yeah, I'm thinking I may pass on Platinum.

[Piggy Knowles]

I am, I should point out, a moron :smalltongue:

Prestige Paladin will fit the last level of the Cleric/OC/FoR build perfectly, allowing you to wind up with +19 BAB and 9th level spells. Also, since it too grants smiting, you wind up with 20th level smiting for your Initiate of Bahamut smites, and since it progresses turning, it also improves your Ordained Champion smites. Can't believe I was having so much trouble thinking about how to fill that last level when PP has been mention at least a dozen times this thread.

Unfortunately, all my favorite paladin tricks rely on deity-specific ACFs for deities other than Bahamut (Milil and Mystra, primarily), so the non-fluff version is difficult. I'd be inclined to just run a straight crusader if I wanted to play a paladin of Bahamut-style build that didn't use any reflufffing at all.

[Red Fel]

I am, I should point out, a moron :smalltongue:

Prestige Paladin will fit the last level of the Cleric/OC/FoR build perfectly, allowing you to wind up with +19 BAB and 9th level spells. Also, since it too grants smiting, you wind up with 20th level smiting for your Initiate of Bahamut smites, and since it progresses turning, it also improves your Ordained Champion smites. Can't believe I was having so much trouble thinking about how to fill that last level when PP has been mention at least a dozen times this thread.

Hmm... Admittedly, PP does have a feat tax (Mounted Combat? Is this trip really necessary?), but even for a 1-level dip, it gets me at-will Detect Evil, an extra Smite, and stacking Cleric TU, as well as +1 BAB and +1 Cleric casting. Not bad, but it does cost the feat.


Unfortunately, all my favorite paladin tricks rely on deity-specific ACFs for deities other than Bahamut (Milil and Mystra, primarily), so the non-fluff version is difficult. I'd be inclined to just run a straight crusader if I wanted to play a paladin of Bahamut-style build that didn't use any reflufffing at all.

Yeah, I've noticed that the handbooks seem to really like the Milil and Mystra ACFs. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that there are no ACFs for Prestige Paladin (I'll have to look into it), and I haven't yet looked into ACFs for Cleric (although I might check out Dead Level options).

I become increasingly surprised with just how few fluff-neutral Divine Casting class options there are. And yet, it's really not that surprising, is it?

EDIT: Looking over Cleric ACFs, I see Champion Cleric (give up TU to get Smite and Aura, but I'm a bit reluctant to give up TU just yet), and then a bunch which involve swapping out a spell slot or domain power for some kind of power. I dunno.

I also wonder whether I should consider some Devotion feats if I go with the Cleric angle, in place of the Domain powers. (Of course, this first requires me to pick domains.) Cleric gets two domains, Bahamut gives Air, Cold, Dragon, Good, Luck, Protection, and Windstorm, or something like that?

Looking at my list, I see only four of those (Air, Good, Luck, Protection) have Devotion feats in CC. So I could be swapping:
Air Domain (turn earth creatures) for Air Devotion (gain AC boost)
Good Domain (+1 CL to Good spells) for Good Devotion (aura that grants DR/evil and Good-aligned weapons)
Luck Domain (1/day reroll any one roll) for Luck Devotion (automatically deal average damage on any roll for 1 minute)
Protection Domain (1/day Protective Ward) for Protection Devotion (AC aura)
Of those, Air seems a waste of time, both as a Domain and as a Devotion; Good seems almost too good as a Domain to lose for a Devotion; Luck seems very tempting, although "average damage" isn't dreadfully impressive with a 1d4 Scimitar; and Protection seems nice, except that AC becomes less impressive at higher levels.

I'm curious as to other thoughts on these points.

[Xerlith]

I feel that this is kind of the point about those PrCs. :smalltongue:

On the other hand, I've skimmed the Sanctified Mind class to quickly, I'm afraid. It's not divine AND psionic progression, but divine OR psionic. I was thinking this class was too good... Well there I have it.

Still, you can most probably go the aforementioned build, but using Paladin levels. War Mind list is great for a melee combatant. It was tailored for such after all.

[Red Fel]

I feel that this is kind of the point about those PrCs. :smalltongue:

On the other hand, I've skimmed the Sanctified Mind class to quickly, I'm afraid. It's not divine AND psionic progression, but divine OR psionic. I was thinking this class was too good... Well there I have it.

Still, you can most probably go the aforementioned build, but using Paladin levels. War Mind list is great for a melee combatant. It was tailored for such after all.

Hmm... So how would I build that one? Paladin 5/ War Mind 5/ Paladin +5/ Crusader 5? With the other build being Cleric 4/ Crusader 1/ Paladin 1/ War Mind 5/ Paladin +5/ Crusader +4?

I'd still have to take a feat to open with that Power Point prereq. And I'd need instruction in the Texts from another War Mind, that might be tricky.

[Xerlith]

No, no no nononono.
I meant that the CLeric variant is obsolete if its casting is not progressed by Sanctified Mind.

So
Paladin4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind5/Sanctified Mind+5/Crusader5
is the build I meant. Sadly War Mind's manifesting is governed by Wisdom, so either you suffer from a bit MADness, or take Serenity.

[Red Fel]

No, no no nononono.
I meant that the CLeric variant is obsolete if its casting is not progressed by Sanctified Mind.

So
Paladin4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind5/Sanctified Mind+5/Crusader5
is the build I meant. Sadly War Mind's manifesting is governed by Wisdom, so either you suffer from a bit MADness, or take Serenity.

Okay, I think I get you now. I'd still have to take a feat for the Power Point requirement. Now, given that this build doesn't use Cleric casting, does that mean I want Sanctified Mind to progress a manifesting class? Because I don't have one until I take War Mind. At that point, is Sanctified Mind progressing War Mind manifesting, or Paladin casting?

At least I get that Crusader 5 on the end, which gives me an IL of 12, which I believe is good for 6th-level maneuvers.

So either I get Paladin CL 10 and War Mind ML 5, or Paladin CL 5 and War Mind ML 10 (since the last Sanctified Mind level can't raise my War Mind ML above 10, its max, I think).

Or am I reading the manifester levels completely wrong?

[Xerlith]

Sanctified Mind progresses manifesting/casting on every level except the first. :smallwink:

[Piggy Knowles]

Just for fun, the references to Argent Fist on this thread made me stop and wonder just how high we could get a stun DC on a stun-focused dragonborn hellbred paladin/monk. Here's what I came up with...

Monk 2/Paladin 5/Argent Fist 10/Uncanny Trickster 3

1. Monk1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Hidden Talent (anything)
2. Monk2- Monastic Training (Paladin)
3. Paladin1- Intuitive Attack
4. Paladin2-
5. Paladin3-
6. Paladin4- Serenity
7. Argent Fist1-
8. Argent Fist2-
9. Argent Fist3- Sapphire Fist
10. Argent Fist4-
11. Argent Fist5-
12. Argent Fist6- Psycarnum Infusion
13. Argent Fist7-
14. Argent Fist8-
15. Argent Fist9- Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
16. Argent Fist10-
17. Uncanny Trickster1-
18. Uncanny Trickster2- Pain Touch
19. Uncanny Trickster3-
20. Paladin5-

Wisdom powers basically EVERYTHING (AC, attack rolls, saves, turning, etc.), so if we start at 18, boost every available level, and take a +5 Tome and a +6 Periapt, that leaves us with...

Wis 34 (+12 bonus)
Save DC on Stunning Fist: 10 +10 (levels) +12 (Stunning Smite) +4 (Psycarnum-fueled Sapphire Fist) +12 (Wisdom) +2 (Ability Focus) = DC 50 on Stunning Fist. That's not half bad - that means a great wyrm gold dragon would need to roll a 17 to make that save.

I know it's not necessarily what you're going for, but I was playing around to see how high I could get a stun DC given your parameters, and this is what I ended up with.

[Red Fel]

Sanctified Mind progresses manifesting/casting on every level except the first. :smallwink:

Yep, I noticed. My question was whether I should progress manifesting, or progress casting. I.e. whether Paladin spellcasting was worth advancing, or whether I should simply juice my War Mind manifesting.


Just for fun, the references to Argent Fist on this thread made me stop and wonder just how high we could get a stun DC on a stun-focused dragonborn hellbred paladin/monk. Here's what I came up with...

Monk 2/Paladin 5/Argent Fist 10/Uncanny Trickster 3

1. Monk1- Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Hidden Talent (anything)
2. Monk2- Monastic Training (Paladin)
3. Paladin1- Intuitive Attack
4. Paladin2-
5. Paladin3-
6. Paladin4- Serenity
7. Argent Fist1-
8. Argent Fist2-
9. Argent Fist3- Sapphire Fist
10. Argent Fist4-
11. Argent Fist5-
12. Argent Fist6- Psycarnum Infusion
13. Argent Fist7-
14. Argent Fist8-
15. Argent Fist9- Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
16. Argent Fist10-
17. Uncanny Trickster1-
18. Uncanny Trickster2- Pain Touch
19. Uncanny Trickster3-
20. Paladin5-

Wisdom powers basically EVERYTHING (AC, attack rolls, saves, turning, etc.), so if we start at 18, boost every available level, and take a +5 Tome and a +6 Periapt, that leaves us with...

Wis 34 (+12 bonus)
Save DC on Stunning Fist: 10 +10 (levels) +12 (Stunning Smite) +4 (Psycarnum-fueled Sapphire Fist) +12 (Wisdom) +2 (Ability Focus) = DC 50 on Stunning Fist. That's not half bad - that means a great wyrm gold dragon would need to roll a 17 to make that save.

I know it's not necessarily what you're going for, but I was playing around to see how high I could get a stun DC given your parameters, and this is what I ended up with.

That's. Is. Awesome. :smallbiggrin: It's not what I was looking for, but it's sort of insane. It's a one-shot stuncannon, though, and that could be wicked fun.

[Xerlith]

I guess that your best pick would be, as Piggy Knowles pointed out earlier, Cleric4/Ordained Champ5/Prc Paladin1/Fist of Raziel10. You grab 9th level spells, 19 BAB and, coincidentally, fulfill all your initial requirements - have paladin levels in your build. :smallbiggrin:

Also, Paladin melee buffs with a Cleric caster level and extend/persist? Yes please.

[Red Fel]

I guess that your best pick would be, as Piggy Knowles pointed out earlier, Cleric4/Ordained Champ5/Prc Paladin1/Fist of Raziel10. You grab 9th level spells, 19 BAB and, coincidentally, fulfill all your initial requirements - have paladin levels in your build. :smallbiggrin:

Also, Paladin melee buffs with a Cleric caster level and extend/persist? Yes please.

First off, see first page - I slipped the builds in! (Yes, builds, as in multiple.)

Second, because they're still malleable, I'm still open to suggestions. Prestige Paladin has a feat prereq (Mounted Combat), which seems silly since I wouldn't be using a mount. However, it would increase the build's BAB by one, grant me detect evil at will, an extra smite evil 1/day, and a secondary source of turn undead. However, as the first build shows, it's going to be melee-focused, meaning that I won't be using DMM - I'd have to find other uses for TU. Also, feats are rather tight in this build - I'd have to give something up to get PP.

So, the question - is it worth it? Remember that PP advances an existing divine casting class, not Paladin spells specifically, meaning that Battle Blessing doesn't apply. So, if I'm not getting DMM or Battle Blessing, is it worth the feat tax to get the +1 BAB, detect evil, extra smite, and secondary TU?

EDIT: Hmm... With a second source of TU, I could take the Champion Cleric ACF and gain Aura of Courage and an extra Smite in exchange for my Cleric TU. Is that an option?

[Xerlith]

Yes, I saw the builds. Hence I offered to swap the 5th level of Cleric for the PrPaladin dip. Also, Prestige Paladin does not grant TU. It merely progresses it, requiring it to go in. As how to get it... Knight of the Raven 3.

[Red Fel]

Yes, I saw the builds. Hence I offered to swap the 5th level of Cleric for the PrPaladin dip. Also, Prestige Paladin does not grant TU. It merely progresses it, requiring it to go in. As how to get it... Knight of the Raven 3.

Whoops! Misread on my part. Yeah, I don't think I'd need an extra source of TU. And I can still use TU with OC for a couple of class features.

The challenge is still meeting the Mounted Combat feat prereq, though, while still satisfying the prereqs for OC and FoR.

OC requires Weapon Focus; since the build gets into OC at level 6, that means I either have to take it at 1 or 3. To get PP, I would have to lose Initiate of Bahamut at that level in place of Mounted Combat, which is essentially a feat tax I will never use. I still have to take Power Attack and Servant of the Heavens at 6 and 9, so that I can qualify for Fist of Raziel at 11. So, in theory, if I took Weapon Focus at 1, Mounted Combat at 3, Power Attack at 6 and Servant of the Heavens at 9, I could swap PP 1 in place of Cleric 5. But that would mean holding off on Initiate of Bahamut until at least 12, and potentially postponing Entangling Exhalation and Awesome Smite even later.

So, the question remains: Is it worth gaining smite and detect evil, and +1 BAB, and throwing off my feat progression? Remember also that Initiate of Bahamut lets me smite as well, plus it grants bonus spells (since the character is Dragonborn).

[Xerlith]

So, the question remains: Is it worth gaining smite and detect evil, and +1 BAB, and throwing off my feat progression? Remember also that Initiate of Bahamut lets me smite as well, plus it grants bonus spells (since the character is Dragonborn).

You forget the Paladin spells you add to your list. It's spells vs spells, and it's only one smite difference between the feat and the Paladin level. In fact, your choice is between:
+1 BAB, many Paladin-exclusive spells and one smite attempt
and
+0BAB, four-five spells and two smite attempst.

[Red Fel]

You forget the Paladin spells you add to your list. It's spells vs spells, and it's only one smite difference between the feat and the Paladin level. In fact, your choice is between:
+1 BAB, many Paladin-exclusive spells and one smite attempt
and
+0BAB, four-five spells and two smite attempst.

Prestige Paladin doesn't add Paladin spells. It adds +1 existing divine casting class, which here would be Cleric.

[Piggy Knowles]

Prestige Paladin doesn't add Paladin spells. It adds +1 existing divine casting class, which here would be Cleric.

Actually, it does - it adds paladin-specific spells to your divine spell list.

Edit: here's the rules quote:


Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

[Red Fel]

Actually, it does - it adds paladin-specific spells to your divine spell list.

Edit: here's the rules quote:

See, now I'm confused. Because the Prestige Paladin also explicitly says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin):


A prestige paladin's training focuses on divine spellcasting. At every odd numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.
This is further reinforced by the table, which, at every odd level, says "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class[.]"

I'm away from book right now, so I may be mistaken.

So, which is it? Is he gaining Paladin spells, increasing Cleric spells, or both?

[Xerlith]

Just above Prestige Bard header:

Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.


TL;DR you add the paladin-specific spells to your spell list - on their appropriate levels.

[Red Fel]

Just above Prestige Bard:


TL;DR you add the paladin-specific spells to your spell list - on their appropriate levels.

Ohh, I see. So, basically, in addition to the +1 Cleric spellcasting, Prestige Paladin also includes regular Paladin casting progression?

Okay. Now I see. (I think.)

So, at Cleric 5, I would get +0 BAB, +0 saves, and one Cleric caster level.

At PP 1, in place of Cleric 5, I would get +1 BAB, +1 Fort, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, stacking Turn, one Cleric caster level, and the ability to gain Paladin casting (even though Paladin 1 can't cast spells yet).

So, I don't actually get Paladin casting, just access. The RAW says "at the same levels indicated for the standard class." Paladins don't actually get access to their spells until Paladin 4, so I wouldn't get access to my spells until PP 4, unless I used OC or FoR to advance Paladin casting instead of Cleric casting. On the plus side, if I did, I could take Battle Blessing (with what feat slot? I'm running out, here!) to augment those spells.

So, looking at the levels just as-is, PP would give me +1 BAB, +1 Fort, Detect Evil, and Smite Evil; it would cost me a useless feat. So we come back to it: Is that feat worth those four features?

[Xerlith]

Nope again. The levels in question are spell levels.
A one-level dip gives you the whole Paladin spell list added to your Cleric list. I dunno, the same as the Rainbow Servant's capstone.

[Red Fel]

Nope again. The levels in question are spell levels.
A one-level dip gives you the whole Paladin spell list added to your Cleric list. I dunno, the same as the Rainbow Servant's capstone.

I'm... Confused again.

So, I basically treat my preexisting caster level (i.e. Cleric level) as my Paladin caster level for purposes of spells/day? Or I add Paladin spells to my Cleric list of spells/day? Or I have a Paladin spells/day list based entirely on my PP levels? I'm now quite lost.

[Xerlith]

You can use your Cleric slots to prepare paladin spells. Which now are all on your spell list. And use your Cleric caster level.
It's like, I don't know, the Arcane Disciple (paladin) feat for the Cleric, except lack of the 1/day restriction.
Or the SotAO feat. Except swap Paladin for Cleric and Wizard for Paladin in the feat's description. And Intelligence for "Your Spellcasting Attribute".

[Red Fel]

You can use your Cleric slots to prepare paladin spells. Which now are all on your spell list. And use your Cleric caster level.
It's like, I don't know, the Arcane Disciple (paladin) feat for the Cleric, except lack of the 1/day restriction.
Or the SotAO feat. Except swap Paladin for Cleric and Wizard for Paladin in the feat's description. And Intelligence for "Your Spellcasting Attribute".

Okay. Okay. Let me see if I understand now.

Basically, for taking this class, I add Paladin spells to my Cleric list. I also get the boost to BAB, the Detect and the Smite.

Okay. That actually sounds nice.

So, looking at my build, what feats would you swap out/ move around to get Mounted Combat in there?

[Xerlith]

If you can use flaws?
Cler4/OC5/PPal1/FoR10. Pick Shaky.

If you cannot, the best bet is probably to go Cler4/OC5/FoR3/PPal1/For+7 and drop Entangling Exhalation, since your best Dragonborn aspect choice is the Wings. The entanglement comes too late into play - most probably everyone and their mother is going to have Freedom of Movement by the time. And you're going to have a wizard with a handy list of control spells behind your back. If you're bent on having it, just move the feats around - pick Mounted Combat at 12th, then the Entangling Exhalation at 18th. I find it it's a sub-par option though.

Although a round spent breathing on your enemies is a round not spent smiting them. Which is bad.

Sidenote - Initiate of Bahamut is too strong of a feat for this build to drop it.

[Red Fel]

If you can use flaws?
Cler4/OC5/PPal1/FoR10. Pick Shaky.

If you cannot, the best bet is probably to go Cler4/OC5/FoR3/PPal1/For+7 and drop Entangling Exhalation, since your best Dragonborn aspect choice is the Wings. The entanglement comes too late into play - most probably everyone and their mother is going to have Freedom of Movement by the time. And you're going to have a wizard with a handy list of control spells behind your back. If you're bent on having it, just move the feats around - pick Mounted Combat at 12th, then the Entangling Exhalation at 18th. I know it's a sub-par option.

Although a round spent breathing on your enemies is a round not spent smiting them. Which is bad.

Sidenote - Initiate of Bahamut is too strong of a feat for this build to drop it.

Got to disagree with you on the wings, for one reason: They can't handle medium or heavy armor without additional feat tax.

Now, if I use a Ring of Arming, that's a non-issue - I can simply pop my armor off and on as needed. But while wearing armor, I can't use the wings. Even if I could, I'd have to pay extra to have the armor modified for wings (I think the rules are in Savage Species).

I could go with Mind aspect. And I agree, the breath weapon takes away from smiting. But on the other hand, it's a great way to enter combat - snare a bunch of enemies, get to casting, then close to melee. And in a dungeon, in a corridor or narrow tunnel? Nowhere to run.

But I see your point about the breath weapon. It does distract from my melee focus. I could switch to Mind aspect for the blindsense, drop the breath feat, move some more around as you suggest... it could work. Hmm.

EDIT: Updated the OP. You sold me with that rebuild. I really, really like how it came out. I decided on Mind aspect, for reasons I mentioned.

[Piggy Knowles]

EDIT: Divine Might is probably what you want with that spare feat on your listed build, by the way. +Cha to damage for a round is pretty handy. Alternatively, you can take something like Strength Devotion for the ability to bypass hardness and some DR.

New idea! This one fits the fluff better.

Take a heart aspect dragonborn spirit hellbred. That'll give you solid Constitution and Charisma, and a breath weapon.

Go Paladin 4/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 8.

For your Suel Arcanamach spells, you'll want to focus on abjuration spells up to third level, as you can cast them as a swift action thanks to Abjurant Champion. That means things like Shield (which will give you a +9 bonus to AC - not too shabby!), Protection from Evil, Arcane Turmoil or Dispel Magic, Resist Energy, etc. Your very first third level spell needs to be Haste, which will become your bread and butter (and also be able to be cast as a swift action). Other than that, focus on general utility, buff spells, and breath weapon boosters. Blinding/Stunning Breath are pretty nice. For buff spells, look at long-term buffs like Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Mighty Wallop, and also gamechangers like Draconic Polymorph.

For feats, you can go with something like.....

1. Paladin1- Entangling Exhalation
2. Paladin2-
3. Paladin3- Iron Will
4. Paladin4-
5. Fighter1- Power Attack
6. Fighter2- Combat Casting, Dodge
7. Suel Arcanamach1-
8. Abjurant Champion1-
9. Abjurant Champion2- Mobility
10. Abjurant Champion3-
11. Abjurant Champion4-
12. Abjurant Champion5- Divine Might
13. Swiftblade1- Spring Attack
14. Swiftblade2-
15. Swiftblade3- Awesome Smite
16. Swiftblade4-
17. Swiftblade5-
18. Swiftblade6- Extra Smiting
19. Swiftblade7- Bounding Assault
20. Swiftblade8-

...although honestly I might drop Awesome Smite/Extra Smiting for something else. Minor Shapeshift and Elusive Target come to mind, for instance. I just tried to fit it in there as a way to focus a little bit more on smiting, but you may want to just drop the smiting aspect altogether - your smites unfortunately won't scale, and so you need something like Awesome Smite just to make them useful.

The net result is...


+19 BAB
CL 19 with full Suel Arcanamach casting.
The ability to cast Haste and any Abjuration spell up to third level as a swift action (you're a melee character first and foremost - you don't want to waste actions casting!).
Lots of draconic flavor.
An entangling breath weapon that can blind or stun.
Hefty Charisma focus, with Cha powering your saves, spells and damage (via Divine Might/smiting).
Pretty excellent defenses, thanks to Abjurant Champion and Swiftblade.

[Red Fel]

EDIT: Divine Might is probably what you want with that spare feat on your listed build, by the way. +Cha to damage for a round is pretty handy. Alternatively, you can take something like Strength Devotion for the ability to bypass hardness and some DR.

New idea! This one fits the fluff better.

Take a heart aspect dragonborn spirit hellbred. That'll give you solid Constitution and Charisma, and a breath weapon.

Go Paladin 4/Fighter 2/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 8.

For your Suel Arcanamach spells, you'll want to focus on abjuration spells up to third level, as you can cast them as a swift action thanks to Abjurant Champion. That means things like Shield (which will give you a +9 bonus to AC - not too shabby!), Protection from Evil, Arcane Turmoil or Dispel Magic, Resist Energy, etc. Your very first third level spell needs to be Haste, which will become your bread and butter (and also be able to be cast as a swift action). Other than that, focus on general utility, buff spells, and breath weapon boosters. Blinding/Stunning Breath are pretty nice. For buff spells, look at long-term buffs like Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Mighty Wallop, and also gamechangers like Draconic Polymorph.

For feats, you can go with something like.....

1. Paladin1- Entangling Exhalation
2. Paladin2-
3. Paladin3- Iron Will
4. Paladin4-
5. Fighter1- Power Attack
6. Fighter2- Combat Casting, Dodge
7. Suel Arcanamach1-
8. Abjurant Champion1-
9. Abjurant Champion2- Mobility
10. Abjurant Champion3-
11. Abjurant Champion4-
12. Abjurant Champion5- Divine Might
13. Swiftblade1- Spring Attack
14. Swiftblade2-
15. Swiftblade3- Awesome Smite
16. Swiftblade4-
17. Swiftblade5-
18. Swiftblade6- Extra Smiting
19. Swiftblade7- Bounding Assault
20. Swiftblade8-

...although honestly I might drop Awesome Smite/Extra Smiting for something else. Elusive Target comes to mind, for instance. I just tried to fit it in there as a way to focus a little bit more on smiting, but you may want to just drop the smiting aspect altogether - your smites unfortunately won't scale, and so you need something like Awesome Smite just to make them useful.

The net result is...


+19 BAB
CL 19 with full Suel Arcanamach casting.
The ability to cast Haste and any Abjuration spell up to third level as a swift action (you're a melee character first and foremost - you don't want to waste actions casting!).
Lots of draconic flavor.
An entangling breath weapon that can blind or stun.
Hefty Charisma focus, with Cha powering your saves, spells and damage (via Divine Might/smiting).
Pretty excellent defenses, thanks to Abjurant Champion and Swiftblade.


Wow. That is an awesome Cha-based gish.

I do notice one problem, however: It barely resembles a Paladin. It has the four levels early on, which give Detect Evil, Smite, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Aura of Courage, Turn Undead and first-level Paladin spells.

But it won't be using Smite, it won't be advancing Paladin casting, and it will have better things to do in a round than Turn Undead. These are three things - divine casting, smite, and finding a use for TU - that are fairly integral to the idea of "Paladin." It's why I was, at first, reluctant to substitute Cleric for Paladin. (You'll note, however, that Build #1 features all of these things, even the Paladin spell list thanks to a 1-level dip in PP.)

Your build is definitely awesome. It can overcome armor limitations by having sickly-boosted AC from AbCham, it can deal out impressive damage with its near-perpetual Haste bonuses, and it gets some really useful combat feats. But it's a Cha-based arcane swordsman, not a Paladin. At least, not by my idiosyncrasies.

If I ever decide to go arcane gish, though? I'm probably stealing the crap out of this. So you know.

As for Divine Might, it's a good idea. Given that I'll have pretty good Cha bonus, that's a hefty beef to one round. The catch is that it'll only be really good at high levels; since it only applies for one round, I need to make a lot of attacks in that round to qualify. So I'll want it once I have 3+ iteratives. It also uses one of my TUs, and I'll have to go back and check which class features eat those up. That said? Not a bad call, there.