Spelltheif and a corpse

[CyberThread]

Okay so Spelltheif can steal SLA's and the like of those, SLA's are mostly monster abilities that they get for being monsters, or from birth.

No where in all the rules does it say that when a monster dies, they lose the ability to cast SLA's and hell if they become Undead, they can still cast them.


So I would like to propose, that a spelltheif can steal SLA's from a corpse after a battle and do all the usual buffs, or heals needed if that monster has access to such things.

[Invader]

I feel like you're actually being serious with question but I just cant believe it.

[mattie_p]

Once a creature dies, its remains become an object (a corpse). This might be a problem for your theory.

[CyberThread]

Is there a raw on that or just logical assumption

[Invader]

Lack of a rule saying you can't do something is not the same as saying you can.

If you're dead you don't have the ability to use SLA's just as you don't have the ability to do anything, you're dead :smallconfused:

[CyberThread]

No it is a big detail and the only thing I know about , object being dead bit is the faq which I know mattie does not consider r.a.w just a low level rai. I personally do not follow faq.

[mattie_p]

No it is a big detail and the only thing I know about , object being dead bit is the faq which I know mattie does not consider r.a.w just a low level rai. I personally do not follow faq.

If a body does not become a corpse, spells such as animate dead do not work. Consider carefully what you want to consider RAW and follow all the rabbits down their holes.

[thethird]

Hey being dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) doesn't keep you from taking actions... so of course this would work.

[Fable Wright]

By RAW? No idea if it would work. In a game? I'd give it a shot. Spellthieves could use some power boosting, and the ability to take spells as loot could be an interesting idea. Mixed with taking away the spells dissipating after one hour limit, it could be an interesting concept. But really, this is a DM call thing and not a RAW question.

[CyberThread]

Target is a corpse not Object(corpse), which is large

[mattie_p]

When a game term is not defined (as thethird has pointed out, dead is defined), then common english must do. Please find your definition of a corpse as you will amongst dictionaries as you like and let me know what you find.

[CyberThread]

No am trying to figure out what your point is Mattie


corpse*[kɔːps]na dead body, esp of a human being; cadaver

[mattie_p]

My point is that the rules use language. Sometimes the game creates definitions for terms where previously there were none, or supercedes those definitions within the game. D&D has a rather large glossary of words that it has defined in a special way. However, that terminology uses language. Language is the means of communications between two or more people, and must have a common definition that can be agreed upon. If there is no agreement, there is no language and no communication.

Where D&D does not define a term, the only way that it can be interpreted is by the dictionary definition. Without this common framework there is no communication, and no game. There are no rules if everyone gets to define the words as they wish. I might as well not post if my words are not interpreted as I intend.

Does this post help answer your question?

[Xuldarinar]

Lets break this down.

1.Can you deliver a sneak attack to a corpse? Yes (1a), No (1b)
1a. Maybe you can steal spells and (Sp) from the corpse. (Proceed to 2)
1b. No.

2. Does a corpse retain it's spells prepared/spell slots? Does it retain uses of it's (Sp) abilities? Yes (2a), or No (2b)
2a. Then it should work.
2b. Then it will not work.

[ahenobarbi]

Well... Raise Dead has target "dead creature", so it kindof requires th corpse to be a creature in order to work... just sayin'

I don't know wording of spllthief so I don't know if OP's idea works or not.

[CyberThread]

Steal Spell-Like Ability (Su): At 5th level and higher, a spellthief can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal a creature's spell-like ability. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain one use of one of the target's spell-like abilities. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell-like ability with a touch as a standard action.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a

[Mirakk]

Lets break this down.

1.Can you deliver a sneak attack to a corpse? Yes (1a), No (1b)
1a. Maybe you can steal spells and (Sp) from the corpse. (Proceed to 2)
1b. No.

2. Does a corpse retain it's spells prepared/spell slots? Does it retain uses of it's (Sp) abilities? Yes (2a), or No (2b)
2a. Then it should work.
2b. Then it will not work.


"A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies"


Well, there's your answer I guess. If you want to argue that it was a living creature and still has vital organs etc, then proceed to step 2. This is largely up to DM discretion.


"A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device)."

I'd argue that returning it to the condition it was in at the time of death would more than likely mean that spells prepared but unused would still be prepared. This would be up to the DM once again. In the case of SLAs, they'd clearly still be usable regardless, so you can tiptoe around needing a ruling for this one.

[Invader]

You can't do it.

SRD:
A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomic.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

Edit* Gah swordsage'd :smallmad:

[Mirakk]

Steal Spell-Like Ability (Su): At 5th level and higher, a spellthief can use a sneak attack to temporarily steal a creature's spell-like ability. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain one use of one of the target's spell-like abilities. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell-like ability with a touch as a standard action.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a

Oh lord. That's a whole new can of worms.

To forgo sneak attack damage, one must qualify for it, so we have to resolve that argument first.

The only way to bypass that is if we settle the argument about inanimate objects like a corpse being able to be a willing or unwilling target. The rules for an object to resist breakage are pretty commonplace, but giving any kind of consent is clearly outside the scope of the rules as written. Again, a DM call is pretty much needed to settle that.

[Invader]

Oh lord. That's a whole new can of worms.

To forgo sneak attack damage, one must qualify for it, so we have to resolve that argument first.

The only way to bypass that is if we settle the argument about inanimate objects like a corpse being able to be a willing or unwilling target. The rules for an object to resist breakage are pretty commonplace, but giving any kind of consent is clearly outside the scope of the rules as written. Again, a DM call is pretty much needed to settle that.

No sneak attack solves this one as well. You can't sneak attack dead creatures therfore you can't steal a dead creatures SLA's.

[mattie_p]

No sneak attack solves this one as well. You can't sneak attack dead creatures therfore you can't steal a dead creatures SLA's.

Truedeath crystals (MIC) and Lightbringer Rogue ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) are things that allow sneak attack on non-living creatures, among other things. Your argument is insufficient. I think I covered it pretty succinctly above.

[Mirakk]

Truedeath crystals (MIC) and Lightbringer Rogue ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) are things that allow sneak attack on non-living creatures, among other things. Your argument is insufficient. I think I covered it pretty succinctly above.

Ah, there it is. Good catch. It's possible to pull off, with the right equipment or build. At least where SLAs are concerned. Actual spells are still kind of up to DM discretion IMO, but not outside the realm of possibility.

[CyberThread]

No sneak attack solves this one as well. You can't sneak attack dead creatures therfore you can't steal a dead creatures SLA's.


If they are dead, they can't be unwilling, should the spelltheif get lichloved just for.....flavor...

[Jack_Simth]

Truedeath crystals (MIC) and Lightbringer Rogue ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) are things that allow sneak attack on non-living creatures, among other things. Your argument is insufficient. I think I covered it pretty succinctly above.

I know the Truedeath Crystals are specific to undead (and don't apply here, as a dead demon isn't an undead, it's just dead)... I'm not familiar with the Lightbringer Rogue ACF - what's the wording?

[Divayth Fyr]

I know the Truedeath Crystals are specific to undead (and don't apply here, as a dead demon isn't an undead, it's just dead)... I'm not familiar with the Lightbringer Rogue ACF - what's the wording?
Whenever you flank a creature that is immune to sneak attack damage, you still gain half of your sneak attack dice as bonus damage. Note that this benefit does not extend to creatures that ignore your sneak attack damage because you canon flank them. In addition, you still cannot gain sneak attack damage against such foes if they are flat-footed. You must flank a creature that is immune to sneak attack damage in order to use this ability.

[Invader]

And at least how I interpret the wording of sneak attack isn't that a dead character is immune to sneak attack, it says flat out that you can't attack them to begin with. I draw a distinction there.

[Fax Celestis]

Truedeath crystals (MIC) and Lightbringer Rogue ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) are things that allow sneak attack on non-living creatures, among other things. Your argument is insufficient. I think I covered it pretty succinctly above.

Nope, those allow you to sneak attack undead creatures. Different.

[CyberThread]

I think the distinction here, would not be if said thing is sneakable, but rather if the target is willing, if it has no will. *aka dead*

[Seto]

Lets break this down.
2. Does a corpse retain it's spells prepared/spell slots? Does it retain uses of it's (Sp) abilities?

Yes. That's the way Worms-That-Walk and some other undead are created, because of the unused spells prepared remaining in the brain/body at time of death. It doesn't retain use of its SLAs, though (being dead and unable to act). It just retains them.

[Hamste]

Hey being dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) doesn't keep you from taking actions... so of course this would work.
Technically being dead does not make you stop being unconscious as the definition of unconsciousness is at -1 to -9 health or having more non-lethal damage than hit points left. Since no non-lethal damage is more than -whatever hit point you can't do any actions (ok, possibly mental actions depending on how knocked out is defined in d&d)
Atleast that is how I read the rules on the subject.

[mattie_p]

Nope, those allow you to sneak attack undead creatures. Different.

I was responding to Mirakk who stated that sneak attack only affects living creatures. I was pointing out some methods by which sneak attack can function against non-living creatures.

I was not attempting to find ways to sneak attack objects. Although I bet that somewhere there is a class feature or feat that allows sneak attack to be applied to a sunder attempt. After all, since objects never act in combat, they are flat footed (well, they would be if they were creatures).

[Grayson01]

There are ACF that allow a Rouge to sneak Attack undead at half damage, and there also ones for other immune creatures. NOt completely solved.



No sneak attack solves this one as well. You can't sneak attack dead creatures therfore you can't steal a dead creatures SLA's.

[Fax Celestis]

There are ACF that allow a Rouge to sneak Attack undead at half damage, and there also ones for other immune creatures. NOt completely solved.

A corpse is not a creature, but an object, because it lacks ability scores.

[Der_DWSage]

By RAW? No. For reasons that people above me have cited, and more besides.

By RAI? No. The intent of giving up sneak attack damage to steal spells is obviously intended for use on sentient beings, not as a spoils of war. If that were it's intention, it'd be spelled out implicitly.

By GM fiat? Ah, there's where it gets tricky. Spellthieves aren't exactly the most overwhelming class in the world, and they could use something like that. Perhaps as a feat or ACF, if the GM is finicky about it.

[Waddacku]

IF a dead creature is still a creature
Making sure it's also unconscious is trivial (either due to 0 nonlethal damage being more than its negative HP OR by just smacking it once for nonlethal)
This in turn means it's "willing" because it's unconscious, and as such the Spellthief could steal an SLA with a standard action touch.

[Xuldarinar]

IF a dead creature is still a creature
Making sure it's also unconscious is trivial (either due to 0 nonlethal damage being more than its negative HP OR by just smacking it once for nonlethal)
This in turn means it's "willing" because it's unconscious, and as such the Spellthief could steal an SLA with a standard action touch.

Someone being unconcious does not automatically mean they are willing. They cannot consent to you stealing their SLA.

[Jack_Simth]

IF a dead creature is still a creature
Making sure it's also unconscious is trivial (either due to 0 nonlethal damage being more than its negative HP OR by just smacking it once for nonlethal)
This in turn means it's "willing" because it's unconscious, and as such the Spellthief could steal an SLA with a standard action touch.
There are two distinct, but separate, definitions of "Willing" in D&D.

The first, what most people think of (at least, in the context of 'unconscious targets are always considered willing') comes from the Target Section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets) of the magic overview:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

The second comes from the saving throw section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

The thing is, they're significantly different.

The bit about the unconscious always being considered willing is in reference to things that are specifically restricted to willing targets only - and that version of willing has the bit about unconscious critters always being considered willing. Note, however, that this category really doesn't cover sneak attack, as you can very much sneak attack an unwilling person.

The section on voluntarily giving up a saving throw says nothing about unconsciousness, one way or another. It also does not use the same language.

The trouble is that people tend to get the two confused.

[Fax Celestis]

Last line of the steal spell ability says a spellthief can steal a spell from a willing target with a touch. I think the clause jack discussed above certainly accounts for this situation.

Do note however that this accounts for an unconscious, not dead, creature.

[CyberThread]

If.a corpse is a object and has sla deos that make it a magical item for a warlock lol