Viability of a Swordsage

[theIrkin]

First, I'm having trouble finding a completed Swordsage Handbook. The only one I found was on this forum and it was missing discussions on the stance and in general seemed only 2/3 done. If anyone can provide a link to a more complete handbook, I'd be much obliged.

Second, here's a concept for a swordsage I'm building as a backup character, let me know what you guys think:

Illumian Swordsage 1/Rogue 2/Swordsage 8 (CL 11)

25 point buy:
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 10
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 10
(I have an aversion to negative modifiers, so please don't suggest I dump Cha)

Rogue ACF's: Martial Rogue, Wilderness Rogue
Feat selection includes: Human Blood, Able Learner, Sudden Recovery, Improved Sigil, Subtle Sigil, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade
Trait: Quick (+10ft movement, -1HP/HD)
Fault: Meager Fortitude
Sigil: Uurhoon (+2[3] to all Dex, Con, and Wis checks/skills)

Wearing a Collar of Umbral Darkness, Dex item, Wis item

Maneuvers/Stances focus on Shadowhand, specifically the ability damage and the movement stances (and bamf'ing teleport). Diamond Mind Concentration instead of Saves and the Concentration check for damage.

So that's the highlights of my build, going for ninja who is also a skill monkey. My concern is that in our combat-centric game the ability damage won't be enough to keep up with baddies. My current party is 2 tier 1 casters and 2 tier 4/5 melee, with me being between tier 2/3 melee skill monkey with my current character. I'd like to keep the same party role. Any comments would be appreciated, as well as methods for further massaging this character.

Thanks,
Joe

[Grod_The_Giant]

You can get a lot of maneuver discussions from Warblade handbooks.

If you want a good melee punch, the Diamond Mind maneuvers that use a Concentration check for damage are fierce. (d20+level+3+con mod + all the random crap that boosts skills? Times two? Standard action? Yes please!)

I'd probably drop the trait, though. Swordsages are decently mobile as-is, but I'd worry enough as it is about 10 Con on a primary melee character without that -1/level.

[theIrkin]

Yeah, that trait is worrisome. I'm on the fence about it, although I love that base movement speed of 80 with the CoUD and the bonus movement. I am using that DM technique (Insightful Strike). Thanks for the suggestion on stances though, I'll check that out.

[SciChronic]

at 25 point buy you're going to have to take a negative modifier somewhere, tbh a negative cha modifier doesnt really do much to you. you only need it if its your governing DC stat, or you are the diplomancing face of the party. Even in a 32 pointbuy i'd probably take a negative to charisma and/or strength.

you'll want a 14+ con, especially since you're a swordsage and that means a lot of melee.

you also need to be very point efficient due to the limit of 25 points

I'd suggest a spread like 9/14/14/14(+2 from levels)/14/8.
The use of the ability damaging maneuvers (plus the armor) means you'll need a decent wisdom score. Your desire to be a skillmonkey means you'll want 14+ for int. Dex is going to be your attack, damage and armor, so you'll want 14+ there as well.

All in all, i think you're trying to do a bit too much, and it's causing MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency). I would drop using the ability damage maneuvers, it will allow you to get away with a 10 on Wisdom, and will allow you to have a better int or dex score.

If you want to be a skillmonkey, you don't want to focus so heavily on combat, so you'll want to prioritize Int as your main attribute, you can make up the damage through Assassin Stance, and since you have dipped rogue, you can take the Penetrating Strike (i wouldn't take the Feat Rogue ACF, personally) ACF so you can always deal Sneak attack damage. If you cant get a normal flank, you can switch to the Island of Blades stance. For maneuvers, the diamond mind maneuvers are a very good choice, especially the one that makes your opponent flat-footed which means easy sneak attacks, and the ones you are already taking.

[Emperor Tippy]

Unless your DM is actually letting you get the x6 Skill Points at first level, you want your Rogue level at level 1.

Rogue 2/Swordsage 9 is better in pretty much every way than Swordsage 1/Rogue 2/ Swordsage 8 (at least unless you get the skill points).

[theIrkin]

SciChronic: I get where you're coming from with the redistributed attribute points. I know that, power-wise (which is the only reason I post builds here), its sub-optimal to not have at least 1 dump stat, and two with a my build makes sense. I just can't do it. I'm torn though, because negative modifiers at the table make me want to cry. But thanks for the advice, I may do it anyway (with a +2 item on a dump stat until I can get a Belt of Magnificence). As far as the sneak attack vs. martial rogue, what 2 feats would you drop if I went that route?

Tippy: Yeah, the Swordsage x6 at first level means a few extra skill points at first level, otherwise it would be switched out (higher level maneuvers from level 1). If my DM nixes it, I'll switch the level progression to Rogue 2/Swordsage 9.

[Drelua]

I hope you don't take this to be at all judgmental, but I have to say that I have no idea why some are opposed to having a single stat below 10. Your character is, to varying degrees, exceptional in terms of, intelligence, wisdom, and dexterity, and perfectly average in the other three ability scores. Why shouldn't he instead be below average in some area? I can understand how it can feel like min-maxing to drop the scores you don't need into the ground, but I prefer to think of it as the character having the class because of the ability scores.

In your case, you could say he was fairly intelligent, so he focused on skills. He wanted to be a warrior, but he was weak, so there was no one to teach him. He was, however, fairly perceptive and empathic, as well as being very nimble, so he found a way to apply those aptitudes towards combat, either through dedicated training and a lot of fighting, or finding someone to teach such methods of combat. Maybe he could so easily dedicate himself to these things because he wasn't very well-liked, he didn't have a lot of friends to spend time with. Maybe he got picked on a lot and wanted to know how to defend himself, knowing he could never do so by fighting in ways that his bullies would consider fair.

Now, I'm not saying this isn't min-maxing, I'm just saying that's not necessarily a bad thing. It makes sense for a person to be naturally bad at some things as well as being good at others. It's the flaws that make for an interesting character more than the talents.

Wow, that turned out a bit longer than I expected. I guess that's what happens when it's closing in on 2 AM and I know I won't be falling asleep any time soon, whether I try to or not.

[theIrkin]

Haha, I know the feeling. I'll probably be up until 1 or 2 PST and have to wake up for work at 6... bad idea but I can't help it. I totally get where you're coming from with the strengths in one aspect and weaknesses elsewhere. I think my aversion comes from my own (skewed) perspective on myself as average with a few outstanding qualities, and my escapism tends to want to not address possible shortcomings. But that's by the by. Min/Max'ing isn't even a bad word to me, as long as its done with a purpose and without trying to "win" DnD.

TLDR: it's just never worked for my DnD to dump stats. Thanks for the ideas on why a character would have them though, those ideas are definitely appreciated and good food for thought.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why are you putting a 13 in Int when "Combat Expertise" isn't in your feat selections? You should definitely be valuing Con over Int! Heck, unless you can afford a high wisdom, I'd even drop wis to 10-12 and ignore the Wis to AC class feature (ie, use a buckler w/ Improved Buckler Defense, or get an animated shield). A shield can give you between +1 to +7 AC depending on type and enhancement amount. Unless wis is giving you similar numbers, it's not really worth plunking a lot of points into wis.

I also agree with others to drop the Quick trait.

...And you picked -3 fortitude as your flaw? Do you secretly crave to have this character meet a horrible, early demise? Take Poor Reflexes!

Don't rely solely on the DM save counters to protect you. You won't always have the immediate to use it (or you already expended it), don't make it your crutch.

For feats, I heavily recommend Staggering Strike once you have the BAB for it. It makes melee much more survivable. And of course, Craven is stupidly good for a sneak attacker, too.

[theIrkin]

The 13 Int is because there was an extra point left over on the 25 point buy, and I wasn't sure where to put it. I guess Con might be better because I can't see myself spending a level increase on Int for the diminished returns on extra skill points...

I didn't say this before, but the DM for Fort saves should be all I need, because my game doesn't force a lot of Fort saves (mostly Ref and I see Will on the horizon if I were to guess at my DM's intentions). 1 Fort/round should really almost be overkill with the Sudden Recovery feat.

The high Wis is important for skills as well as the Swordsage bonuses, but I can see why you would recommend dropping it.

How does the staggered condition work? A quick google didn't bring up anything for me, but forgive me if I'm just brain fart'ing here. edit: Nix that, I was derp'ing with my google fu...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also, you don't seem to have Adaptive Style. Every Swordsage should have Adaptive Style. At low levels, it's to make sure you actually continue to have maneuvers to fight with throughout the combat. At higher levels, it's to swap in on the spot any of those situationally useful maneuvers you've accumulated by then. It never stops being helpful.


The 13 Int is because there was an extra point left over on the 25 point buy, and I wasn't sure where to put it. I guess Con might be better because I can't see myself spending a level increase on Int for the diminished returns on extra skill points...

I didn't say this before, but the DM for Fort saves should be all I need, because my game doesn't force a lot of Fort saves (mostly Ref and I see Will on the horizon if I were to guess at my DM's intentions). 1 Fort/round should really almost be overkill with the Sudden Recovery feat.

I find it ironic that you're averse to dumping a stat to 8, yet you're ok with tempting fate by going with Con 10 and -3 fort saves flaw on a build that has a poor base fort save to begin with. :smalltongue:
Con still provides hp and a higher bonus on those all-important Concentration checks you're using for save replacement and damage dealing, anyway.

[Emperor Tippy]

The only ability score that should be an odd number (absent specific builds) is Strength. Odd numbered ability scores do absolutely nothing for any other score, and even in high level play they only really become relevant when you can afford +5 tomes for tertiary stats.

[theIrkin]

For sure, I'm a hypocrite and proud of it!

I actually redid the stats as follows:

10
15
13
14
14
9

I'm not sure about the exact progression, but I'll Be bumping Dex and Con for sure, maybe Wis too. Definitely get the Con early. The +1 item to assuage my idiosyncrasy about negative modifiers is a piddling 1k, so it's whatever. Thanks for the advice guys, I really appreciate the input (I've been hitting my head against the character sheet for like 3 days and needed some outside perspective, even if I resist hearing it).

[SciChronic]

you can afford to lose strength, since you're making dex govern your attack and damage. the low carrying capacity can be solved through a handy haversack.

[StreamOfTheSky]

you can afford to lose strength, since you're making dex govern your attack and damage. the low carrying capacity can be solved through a handy haversack.

Shadow Blade actually adds dex to damage in addition to str, not in place of it. This can be good, when you have a high point buy and can afford multiple good stats to get a bigger damage boost. But it can also be bad, when you're strapped for points and would love nothing more than to drop str to 8.
OP should definitely keep Str at 10. If the point buy were more forgiving, I'd even say to put a 12 or higher in there.