[pf] Kingmaker thoughts

[Xunthrae]

I recently acquired a copy of Kingmaker for PF. I was just wondering if anyone had thoughts and recommendations for me, the dm, and for my players. Any tips will help. I'm going to try and read as much of the path as i can tonight. Thank you in advance for any advice!

[Souju]

decide whether you want to use ultimate campaign rules NOW.

[Xunthrae]

Would you recommend me using it? I've only experimented lightly with it and not anything extensive or long-term, so input on this too would be appreciated

[Souju]

No recommendation either way, but there are certain parts of Ultimate Campaign that aren't compatible with kingmaker due to the latter being the prototype for the former

[Crustypeanut]

Ultimate Campaign was built upon and improved upon the Kingmaker rules; I'd highly recommend using it, not to mention the downtime rules which can work marvelously with Kingmaker.

Also.. be very, very careful with the random encounter tables at low levels. Friggin' Owlbears are the #1 cause of low-level deaths.

[Fax Celestis]

The first act is very loosely put together and relies on highly motivated players to function. If your group doesn't do well, I recommend adding some structure.

[Tovec]

Ultimate Campaign was built upon and improved upon the Kingmaker rules; I'd highly recommend using it, not to mention the downtime rules which can work marvelously with Kingmaker.

Also.. be very, very careful with the random encounter tables at low levels. Friggin' Owlbears are the #1 cause of low-level deaths.

#2 is shambling mounds.

@OP I find it funny that you and I started asking the same question at roughly the same time today, I'll be lurking along with interest.

[the_david]

I don't know much about the Birthright setting, but apparently it fits perfectly. Bloodlines add a reason to why your heroes are becoming kings and queens and
the shadowworld is a perfect replacement for the first world.

I'd make bloodline feats, like the dragonmarks from Eberron, and let all the players choose one as a first level bonus feat instead of choosing traits.

[Ravens_cry]

I enjoyed the kingdom building parts immensely. It was Pathfinder's first full on sandbox game, and I loved the responsibility and power of actually being in charge of things. I didn't like the random bear butt collection quests. When you are on the ruling council of a barony, duchy, or even kingdom, it feels downright onerous to be told, 'Hey go do this for me, now that's a good chap,' by a random subject.
My later experience got a little loopy because the DM often would complain 'Well, that's a stupid rule,' and then complain again later when things fell apart because he took out that rule. Mass combat rules were, meh. A nice try, but they really didn't capture the kinaesthetics and feel they were going for I think.
Story wise, I personally didn't like the conflation of Wonderland and the realm of fae. Wonderland is far too young a thing; it doesn't have wild and timeless feeling I associate personalty with Fae. I am fairly alone in this, but it's how I felt.

[Carth]

Be aware that if you don't use the Ultimate Campaign update to kingdom rules, selling magic items for build points, then cashing those build points out to GP can cause your PCs to break WBL by a lot without DM intervention.

[Ravens_cry]

Be aware that if you don't use the Ultimate Campaign update to kingdom rules, selling magic items for build points, then cashing those build points out to GP can cause your PCs to break WBL by a lot without DM intervention.
I've heard this complaint a lot before and . . . I don't mind it. You are running a sovereign nation. If you basically steal from your kingdom like that, it's only logical that you should end up wealthier than a bunch of murder hobos.
I think I am going to use the exploration rules for a Stone Age campaign, tweaked a little for the setting.

[Kudaku]

The UC rules are basically the Kingmaker rules "revised" after a few years of feedback from players who played through the original AP. Basically UCamp is 3.5 to Kingmaker's 3.0.

@Ravens_Cry
For what it's worth the players can still do this with the Ucamp rules, they didn't change how players can withdraw money from the kingdom's vault. The difference is that they now build a surplus of BP to cash out via building a thriving economy, not a thriving selection of magic item crafters.

[Ravens_cry]

@Ravens_Cry
For what it's worth the players can still do this with the Ucamp rules, they didn't change how players can withdraw money from the kingdom's vault. The difference is that they now build a surplus of BP to cash out via building a thriving economy, not a thriving selection of magic item crafters.
I think I like that a little better I admit. I have Ultimate Campaign, though I haven't looked over the Kingdom Building rules too closely yet. The honour system, though basically copy and pasted from Unearthed Arcana from what I can tell, is one that interests me, again for my Stone Age campaign.

[Xunthrae]

So from what I am getting from the above posts, is that using UCamp is a good idea because it's basically an updated version of Kingmaker.

Also, they started working on their characters a few hours after i posted this, though i did allow the APG classes caused I personally like them quite a bit.

What we have is:

Human Bard (Bastard trait)
Human Oracle, wants to go an Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365) style character. (Noble born, Lebeda)
Elf Ranger (Issian)

They are really excited to start, and the Kingmaker is a great to read for me. What parts do you guys think I should read first and others that aren't as important? Or Should I just read it cover to cover. I'm capable of it. It's just daunting. Again, thank you guys for your support and input!:smallbiggrin:

[Craft (Cheese)]

The first act is very loosely put together and relies on highly motivated players to function. If your group doesn't do well, I recommend adding some structure.

My recommendation? Send them the charter early, and give them a wink and a nudge that their new colony might not do so well with the stag lord still running around. If they ignore him, feel free to have him cause all sorts of trouble.

As for reading, I'm a staunch advocate of reading everything in the module *before* the session starts. Sometimes you can't (because you don't have time, it's being released in parts and is currently incomplete, etc), but whenever you can, you should. Showing up to play a module you haven't read is like showing up to play something original without having actually made anything.

[molten_dragon]

I recently acquired a copy of Kingmaker for PF. I was just wondering if anyone had thoughts and recommendations for me, the dm, and for my players. Any tips will help. I'm going to try and read as much of the path as i can tonight. Thank you in advance for any advice!

I might suggest trying to work a bit more of a plot into the first two books. They're largely made up of random encounters, and my players were getting pretty bored with them by the end.

I'd also suggest giving some serious consideration to completely eliminating the 6th book and replacing it with something else. As it is, the 6th book seems very random and had very little to do with the plot of the rest of the adventure path.

And if you have players that really enjoy the kingdom building stuff and take the time to figure out what works and what doesn't, it's very easy to get incredibly large amounts of income and a very stable kingdom. I had to increase the enemy armies in the 5th book considerably to compensate for how large an army my PCs were able to recruit/equip.

[the_david]

Well, you should start with the first book and read the adventure part. You should be somewhat familiar with all the encounters, so the players can't surprise you.

Don't let anyone take the pioneer trait, as they might get upset after defeating the bandits at Oleg's tradepost.
Surprisingly, Abadar isn't mentioned as a good choice for a cleric. Abadar would be perfect for the cleric who sets out to expand the civilized world, although Erastil would be another good choice.
If you happen to play while the door to your backyard is open, don't shout any remarks about the posterior of Oleg's wife while roleplaying the bandits. (Especially when you have a neighbour whose name is Svetlana.)

[Craft (Cheese)]

I might suggest trying to work a bit more of a plot into the first two books. They're largely made up of random encounters, and my players were getting pretty bored with them by the end.

I'd also suggest giving some serious consideration to completely eliminating the 6th book and replacing it with something else. As it is, the 6th book seems very random and had very little to do with the plot of the rest of the adventure path.

Well, it's a sandbox campaign, whatever the PCs decide to do *is* the plot. If anything I think Kingmaker had too much structure in those areas.

As for the sixth book... yeah, I kinda agree. It feels like the design team said to themselves "Okay, we're working a high-level journey into the First World into this adventure, and I don't care how ham-fisted and out of place it is!"


And if you have players that really enjoy the kingdom building stuff and take the time to figure out what works and what doesn't, it's very easy to get incredibly large amounts of income and a very stable kingdom. I had to increase the enemy armies in the 5th book considerably to compensate for how large an army my PCs were able to recruit/equip.

Honestly, I'd have just let them steamroll Pitax. Just say Irovetti spent all of his kingdom's wealth on wine and hookers and expected the PC's kingdom to be a pushover.

[BossMuro]

I'm currently running Kingmaker myself, though we've stalled a bit at the end of the second book. A couple things from the first book that work better with a bit of planning:

1. The faerie pranksters. The book doesn't really specify WHAT pranks the faeries play on the party, but their SLAs and high stealth scores give a lot of possibilities. Silent images of treasure to make greedy party members wander into leeches or poison ivy, pyrotechnics on a campfire, sleep on whoever has night watch (followed by shenanigans). Make up a list of annoying, but not life-threatening pranks beforehand. If the party seems like they're out for blood, have the faeries alert them to an ambush or help them out in some way to show that they're not really malicious. This was a bunch of fun in my game, and Perlivash actually wound up as the spymaster of the party's new nation.

2. The "wanted posters" can kind of break immersion, especially after the first book, when the party becomes the government of a small country. I found that they worked better if presented as threats to the kingdom/chances for loot/favours for allied NPCs. That way they also provide a decent way to steer the party around the map if they're stalling or if they seem about to rush into a fight that they aren't quite ready for. I just added the poster rewards to the loot.