Warhammer 40k - minor problem with exotic weapons

[Boci]

Having deja vu yet? In all seriousness, this is a relatively minor point, but it is one that bugs me, and I would like to hear what you have to say on the matter:

How do you handle weapons that apparently require two separate consumables to operate? For examples:
Shurikan pistol (fires disks of crystal through a gravity accelerator)
Needle pistol (fires small slivers of crystalline with a low powered laser beam)
Splinter weapons (fire shards of splintered crystal through a powerful magnetic pulse)
Shredder (launches an expanding mesh of molofilament, does not specify how)

So in these examples, is ammunition what is being fired, or a charge pack for what launches the ammunition? Where does the other come from?

On using codex and other sources for 40k lore: Those of you who read my previous threads, may have noticed I reacted badly to an insistence that codex lore was valid in the game, even when that lore had not been reprinted in the rule book. Allow me to clarify:

I don't like codex lore, if including that detail will require additional ruling. For example:

"The Eldar codex states that shuriken catapults fire mono disks of plasticrystal" is fine, because its just filling out details and does not require additional ruling.

"Eldar weapons have no trigger and are fired through phychic commands" is not however, because I now need to rule on whether or not psyniscience can detect the weapon being fired, at what difficult, how firing the weapon interacts with a human who has a psi rating, ect.

[shadow_archmagi]

How do you handle weapons that apparently require two separate consumables to operate? For examples:

Shurikan pistol (fires disks of crystal through a gravity accelerator)

Needle pistol (fires small slivers of crystalline with a low powered laser beam)

Splinter weapons (fire shards of splintered crystal through a powerful magnetic pulse)

Shredder (launches an expanding mesh of molofilament, does not specify how)

So in these examples, is ammunition what is being fired, or a charge pack for what launches the ammunition? Where does the other come from?


I'd say the needle pistol is probably firing significant chunks of its crystals, and you need to jam more crystals in there.

The other Eldar weapons I would argue probably shouldn't even have clip sizes or the need to reload. If you've got a disk three centimeters high, how many molecules is that? I'm not a chemist, but I think the answer is "a bajillion" and Eldar weapons running out of batteries seems silly. Plus, Eldar weapons kinda suck (or rather, they're decent, but they're not great. I can always find a superior Imperial gun for the job, so if I'm using Eldar tech its for fluff reasons.

[Boci]

I'd say the needle pistol is probably firing significant chunks of its crystals, and you need to jam more crystals in there.

Fair enough, but then what powers the laser that launches the crystal?


IThe other Eldar weapons I would argue probably shouldn't even have clip sizes or the need to reload. If you've got a disk three centimeters high, how many molecules is that? I'm not a chemist, but I think the answer is "a bajillion"

You'd need to decide the formula of the plasticrystal, after that you could do an approximation based on the size of similar molecules, but yeah, you're probably righ that it would result in a number so high it isn't worth tracking (or if we are following the rule of three, an eldar gun can be used for 3 years before needing to be refiled with plasticrystal disks).

Edit: After some brief research, assuming the diameter of the molecule is 3nm (for comparisons sake glucose (C6H12O6) is 1nm across and hemogloblin, which is no longer a molecule, is 6nm across) a 6cm wide clip will hold 20,000,000 shots. Yeah, that works.


and Eldar weapons running out of batteries seems silly.

Maybe, but as advanced as they are I don't see the Eldar being able to launch projectiles without the need for energy.


Plus, Eldar weapons kinda suck (or rather, they're decent, but they're not great. I can always find a superior Imperial gun for the job, so if I'm using Eldar tech its for fluff reasons.

I dunno. They have a clip of 100 and are capable of semi and automatic fire and 1d10+4 pen 6 is respectable damage. The only weapon I see them losing against is the bolter.

What about the shredder?

[shadow_archmagi]

Fair enough, but then what powers the laser that launches the crystal?

Maybe, but as advanced as they are I don't see the Eldar being able to launch projectiles without the need for energy.



I dunno. They have a clip of 100 and are capable of semi and automatic fire and 1d10+4 pen 6 is respectable damage. The only weapon I see them losing against is the bolter.

What about the shredder?

In the case of the IG gun, I'd say that it's a standard lasrifle power cell, with all that that entails (Can be recharged via any of 800 different methods) and it probably uses a great deal less energy than actually firing a lasrifle. (Note: This is my explanation purely to avoid having to keep track of multiple ammo types for the same gun). Maybe the crystals react strongly to lasers, so shooting it even slightly causes it to explode and propel itself forward?

Eldar probably run their guns off the psychic currents in the air, or the user's bio-electric residue or something. Is it pen 6? The Armory gives it as pen 4. Oh, I guess the Basic version is P6. Yeah, that is pretty good.

[Boci]

In the case of the IG gun, I'd say that it's a standard lasrifle power cell, with all that that entails (Can be recharged via any of 800 different methods) and it probably uses a great deal less energy than actually firing a lasrifle. (Note: This is my explanation purely to avoid having to keep track of multiple ammo types for the same gun). Maybe the crystals react strongly to lasers, so shooting it even slightly causes it to explode and propel itself forward?

That could work. Having a charge pack that only needs to be replaced once a month or more.


Eldar probably run their guns off the psychic currents in the air, or the user's bio-electric residue or something.

Given that they do have a clip size though, I'm going with the gravity accelerator requiring a charge pack.


Is it pen 6? The Armory gives it as pen 4.

Right you, shuriken catapult is pen 6.

So, brief comparison:

Bolt Pistol vs. Shuriken postol:

Bolt Pistol Advantage
More damage (+3 damage, Pen is equal)
Tearing
Less loading time (full action instead of 2 full actions)
Isn't exotic (but is world specific)

Shuriken Pistol Advantages
Capable of automatic fire, and has a semi rating of 3 instead of 2
5 times the clip capacity
Reliable


Shuriken Catapult vs. Boltgun (not comparing it to a storm bolter. It loses. Everything loses.)

Boltgun advantages
Slightly more damage (+1 damage)
Greater range (+30m)
Tearing
Less loading time (full action instead of 2 full actions)
Isn't exotic (but is world specific)

Shuriken Catapult Advantages
More pen (+2)
+1 semi RoF and +6 auto RoF (but the latter will spill into overkill)
Slightly more than 4 times the ammo capacity (24 vs. 100)
Reliable

[shadow_archmagi]

Also my sense of balance is a bit wonky- I'm so used to Rogue Trader that I was comparing it to stuff like inferno and plasma. I guess in Dark Heresy, with limited resources, the bolter would be the reasonable point of comparison.

Hmm.

[Boci]

Also my sense of balance is a bit wonky- I'm so used to Rogue Trader that I was comparing it to stuff like inferno and plasma. I guess in Dark Heresy, with limited resources, the bolter would be the reasonable point of comparison.

Hmm.

I don't think they are good comparisons, as they are entirely different weapons. No plasma weapon is capable of fully automatic fire (plus without purified plasma wounds you risk overheating) whilst all pistol and basic melta weapons are only capable of single shorts, plus their highest range is 20m. Sure they do more way more damage, but they cannot provide cover fire or anything like that.

[shadow_archmagi]

I don't think they are good comparisons, as they are entirely different weapons. No plasma weapon is capable of fully automatic fire (plus without purified plasma wounds you risk overheating) whilst all pistol and basic melta weapons are only capable of single shorts, plus their highest range is 20m. Sure they do more way more damage, but they cannot provide cover fire or anything like that.

Actually, the Clovis-pattern plasrifle is indeed capable of full-auto. It's nice. (But that's another RT thing)

Having looked at the Shredder, it is very good. I'm not sure how I would rule it without further though.

[Boci]

Actually, the Clovis-pattern plasrifle is indeed capable of full-auto. It's nice.

Oh, I was only looking at the core armory.

[Grim Portent]

I don't think shredders or splinter weapons have ever been explained in detail, shredders I just assume use air pressure or something similar and rely on the struggles of the target to shred them while splinter weapons I always assume have a long lasting battery and therefore don't need to replace anything except the actual projectiles in a timescale that matters.

[Boci]

I don't think shredders or splinter weapons have ever been explained in detail, shredders I just assume use air pressure or something similar and rely on the struggles of the target to shred them while splinter weapons I always assume have a long lasting battery and therefore don't need to replace anything except the actual projectiles in a timescale that matters.

I'm not sure how useful air pressure would be at launching a net on monofillamnet. Plus then it wouldn't be able to work in a vacuum (but neither would SP and probably bolters).

As for splinter guns, the magnetic pulse is noted as being powerful (as oppose to the low powered laser that operates the needle gun). I don't know if I like that idea of almost unlimited power, as it is not being efficient to give guns such a long battery life, as they are meant to be rather common weapons amongst the dark edlar.

Are the splinter projectiles meant to be mono?

[Grim Portent]

I think that splinters are normally referred to as mono-molecular but I can't be certain and I won't have access to my non RPG books for two weeks so I can't check the fluff that features them.

Shredders could be propelled in a number of ways, gunpowder equivalents would do if the wires are strong enough, magnets might also work as an explanation I suppose.

The thing about eldar technology, especially dark eldar tech, is that we aren't meant to know how it works because no humans in 40k know how they work beyond a rather cursory knowledge, this applies to most xenotech. Since almost all fluff is from the human perspective, even that which comes from the RPGs, we can't know something that the mechanicus can't figure out. The books with xenos characters in them do help a bit in this regard but it's not a big part of them.

[Destro_Yersul]

Splinter weapons fire shards of crystal instead of monomolecular discs. The shards are still really sharp, though, and they have poison on them.

[Boci]

Shredders could be propelled in a number of ways, gunpowder equivalents would do if the wires are strong enough, magnets might also work as an explanation I suppose.

So would the ammunition be the nets, or the propulsion system?


The thing about eldar technology, especially dark eldar tech, is that we aren't meant to know how it works because no humans in 40k know how they work beyond a rather cursory knowledge, this applies to most xenotech. Since almost all fluff is from the human perspective, even that which comes from the RPGs, we can't know something that the mechanicus can't figure out. The books with xenos characters in them do help a bit in this regard but it's not a big part of them.

Fair enough, mystic is important, and if you print too much you end up with WoD syndrome.


Splinter weapons fire shards of crystal instead of monomolecular discs. The shards are still really sharp, though, and they have poison on them.

So in your opinion, is the ammunition the shards, or what propels them?

[Grim Portent]

So would the ammunition be the nets, or the propulsion system?

The nets, knowing the eldar I wouldn't be surprised if the propulsion system is some kind of limitless xenotech battery older than human space travel.

[The Glyphstone]

If by 'ammunition' you mean 'what needs to be replaced', then I'd personally say it would be the power cells/propulsion system. the shards/crystals/splinters are technically the actual projectile, but if they're shaved off a solid block of resource, they could be functionally unlimited depending on how big the block is.

Depending on your GM preference on how prevalent/available you want xenotech to be (both directions are valid, depending on how much temptation you want your players to have vs. how Radical/Puritan their boss is), you could make the propulsion system easy to recharge/replace, or very difficult and expensive...and if you're feeling particularly nasty, decide the solid blocks that the crystals/splinters are shaved from also need to be replaced.

[Destro_Yersul]

So in your opinion, is the ammunition the shards, or what propels them?

The crystal, I'd say. The shards aren't supposed to be molecule thin slivers, in this instance, so the crystal they're splintered off of probably gets used fairly quickly. Though, strangely, the clip size on splinter weapons tends to be larger than shuriken ones. Not sure how to explain that.

If you wanted to be truly evil about it, Splinter weapons would actually require three resources. The crystal, power for the propulsion system, and poison to put in the toxin reservoir. Splinter pistols are normally used in Rogue Trader, though, where ammunition is mostly explained by 'you have as much as you need.'

[Boci]

Everyone seems to agree that if anything, its the charge pack for the shuriken catapult that will need to be replaced. However there seems to be some disagreement on the splinter weapons.

Personally, on the shredder I don't mind having an affectingly permanent power cell because its not that common a weapon, but the splinter weapons are the default weapon of the kabalite warrior. Aren't they meant to vat grown? Even if the Darl Eldar could, would they build that many weapons with such a high tech power source when such weapons are intended for their most basic warriors? Or have I misunderstoof the fluff.

[Grim Portent]

Everyone seems to agree that if anything, its the charge pack for the shuriken catapult that will need to be replaced. However there seems to be some disagreement on the splinter weapons.

Personally, on the shredder I don't mind having an affectingly permanent power cell because its not that common a weapon, but the splinter weapons are the default weapon of the kabalite warrior. Aren't they meant to vat grown? Even if the Darl Eldar could, would they build that many weapons with such a high tech power source when such weapons are intended for their most basic warriors? Or have I misunderstoof the fluff.

To the Dark Eldar a high tech power source is low grade stuff. They have weapons that fire energy taken from dead stars and ships that steer using the currents of the warp. Compared to most of their tech a splinter weapon is really mundane, the complex stuff fires needles that turn you into glass, sucks out your soul or drives psykers insane.

[Boci]

Actually the needles that turn you into glass (assuming you mean the hex rifle) don't have much to do with Dark Eldar tech, they simply kept samples of a plague, and the disintegrator cannon is powered by enslaved suns, but yeah point about the levels of Dark Eldar tech.

[Grim Portent]

Actually the needles that turn you into glass (assuming you mean the hex rifle) don't have much to do with Dark Eldar tech, they simply kept samples of a plague, and the disintegrator cannon is powered by enslaved suns, but yeah point about the levels of Dark Eldar tech.

The glass plague was made by a dark eldar sculptor. Not even a haemonculus, just some artist with a vision. Although the haemonculi did weaponise it fairly quickly.

Path of the Renegade states that the entirety of Commoragh is filled with the plague, every mouthful of air contains it, but the haemonculi managed to make a cure that stops the usual strain and then inoculated every dark eldar and every slave in the city.

[Boci]

Oh okay, I was going off The Soul Reaver, which did not state the origin of the plague. Fair enough.

[Grim Portent]

Oh okay, I was going off The Soul Reaver, which did not state the origin of the plague. Fair enough.

The RPG books don't mention where much stuff comes from, likely because it seemed unnecessary for gameplay. The origins of the plague for example are mentioned in the dark eldar codex from the tabletop game and fleshed out further in the dark eldar novels. All the RPG cares about is its use as a weapon. Probably since any information in the RPG is meant to be stuff acolytes/rogue traders/deathwatch/black crusaders/imperial guard would be able to find out.

[Boci]

The RPG books don't mention where much stuff comes from, likely because it seemed unnecessary for gameplay. The origins of the plague for example are mentioned in the dark eldar codex from the tabletop game and fleshed out further in the dark eldar novels. All the RPG cares about is its use as a weapon. Probably since any information in the RPG is meant to be stuff acolytes/rogue traders/deathwatch/black crusaders/imperial guard would be able to find out.

Maybe, but this information was introduced in the same source book that made dark eldar a playable race for Rogue Trader, so that opinion that dark eldar tech is meant to be mysterious is a little suspect.

[Grim Portent]

Maybe, but this information was introduced in the same source book that made dark eldar a playable race for Rogue Trader, so that opinion that dark eldar tech is meant to be mysterious is a little suspect.

From what I can remember of it The Soul Reaver sourcebook was mostly written from the perspective of humans wasn't it?

[Boci]

From what I can remember of it The Soul Reaver sourcebook was mostly written from the perspective of humans wasn't it?

Mostly yes, but it does introduce dark eldar as a playable option and include tips on how to introduce them to the party.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Everyone seems to agree that if anything, its the charge pack for the shuriken catapult that will need to be replaced.

What about if it either draws power from the armour (most Eldar models have power cables to the grips) or it interacts with the psychic field of the wielder and draws on a little of their energy to power itself? For an Eldar, so long as it doesn't bring Slaanesh into the picture (via training or warding runes), it's probably fine (as most of them have psychic power to burn). For a non-Eldar, it could be an extremely unpleasant experience over time.

And most of the Eldar models with Shuriken Catapults have options for extra ammunition, so they must run out at some point (1 disc probably isn't 3nm, as in one of the early Ghosts novels, a character sees one and pulls it out of a tree, and the minimum width you can generally see with the naked eye is about 2 micro-metres, plus they could well fire a volley of something like 2-300 at a time).

[Boci]

And most of the Eldar models with Shuriken Catapults have options for extra ammunition, so they must run out at some point (1 disc probably isn't 3nm, as in one of the early Ghosts novels, a character sees one and pulls it out of a tree, and the minimum width you can generally see with the naked eye is about 2 micro-metres, plus they could well fire a volley of something like 2-300 at a time).

Couldn't they have seen it from the side? It is still a 3 inch disc.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Couldn't they have seen it from the side? It is still a 3 inch disc.

It was mostly buried in the tree.

[Boci]

That's hardly mono then. The character didn't having any visual aids or augmentaton?

[shadow_archmagi]

again, unless it was at EXACTLY eye level, mono shouldn't make it that much harder to spot