About Paladins (no allignment discutions here!)

[Fawsto]

This is me trying to figure out a way to discuss Paladins without talking about good and evil, right and wrong and other alignment stuff.

I just want to know how do you guys like to build your Paladins, which are the best feats, skills and Prestige classes.

I will start giving an example:

My Last Paladin was something like this:

Human Fighter 2 that will become a Paladin and a Kensai

Strg: 16
Dex: 10
Cons: 11
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 16

Feats: Monkey Grip, Weapon Focus: Scythe, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Future Feats: Improved Combat Expertise, Improved Critical, Knockdown (describe at Sword and Fist), Leadership, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave

Well this was a sort of a Full combat Paladin. Yes he uses a Scythe but he is definetly not Evil (I am planing to turn him into a Exalted Character), it is just for the Style. I wanted Him to look like a Combat Version of the Grim Reaper: Black Full Plate with Spikes, Tower Shield and Scythe.

Well, tell me what you guys think,

See Ya.

[Matthew]

That Character is illegal. Monkey Grip does not let you use a Scythe in one hand. Don't worry, so many people make that mistake. The phrase "you have been playing it wrong", is synonymous with Monkey Grip.

My Paladins tend to start out in that Base Class; starting as a Fighter is a viable option, but I generally prefer to play a Paladin from the get go, depending on party composition, campaign and roleplaying considerations. They almost always go Weapon and Shield to begin with, possibly using Two Weapon Fighting if they have enough Dexterity and a Feat to squander. Later on they may use the Bastard Sword as a Two Handed Weapon, but if they have been going since Level 1, a Long Sword is slightly more likely (i.e. if they used a Feat on Weapon Focus). Other Weapons are possible (such as Axes and Morning Stars), but I mostly like Swords for my Paladins

I also tend only to play Paladins if I have managed some pretty good starting Attribute Scores and they are usually Human (as more Skill Points and Feats seem very desirable to me with this sort of Character).

My minimum starting Attribute Spread is:

Strength (+2)
Dexterity (+1)
Constitution (+0)
Intelligence (+1)
Wisdom (+1)
Charisma (+2)

My ideal (whilst remaining reasonable) starting Attribute Spread is:

Strength (+2)
Dexterity (+2)
Constitution (+2)
Intelligence (+1)
Wisdom (+1)
Charisma (+2)

with Charisma getting the bump up and looking for Leadership at later levels.

Skills:
Ride, Heal, and Diplomacy tend to be maxed out, sometimes Animal Handling. Knwledge Skills get a smattering of points.

Feats:
Weapon Focus, Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Cleave, Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Leadership,

Equipment:
So my Level 1 Paladin tends to go with Long Sword, Dagger, Light Mace and Heavy Shield. A Long Spear and Spiked Gauntlets often come in handy.

[Stormcrow]

Even if the Monkey Grip feat allowed the scythe to be weilded in one hand i would as a DM house rule that this wasn't the case. The simplest reason being that the nature of a scythe makes it to unweildy for a single handed use. I might liken it to trying to use an ice-hockey stick with one hand, you need the force and balance of two hands a reasonable distance apart in both cases.

[Lord_Kimboat]

Well, I don't consider myself a great optimizer but lets face it, there's not a lot you can do with paladins. Two skill points per level, usually with Int as a dump stat and one feat every three levels - there's not a great deal to work with.

However, the one paladin character I do play is kind of a specialist 'turtle' paladin. At sixth level he has combat expertise (yeah, Int wasn't quite my dump stat - Dex was) and Imp combat expertise. He's scraped up enough to buy +1 full plate, uses a heavy shield and will often cast prot. from evil on himself. The idea is then to go into combat and fight defensively with full combat expertise. He's managed to get his AC up to 32 - which means he's very hard to hit but also doesn't do much damage.

Basically he assists the party by holding enemies until they can deal with them.

[Fawsto]

Lemme explain myself here: My DM allowed me to use it tatt way, otherwise I'd be using a big sized longsword instead.

No, I wouldnt need 2 hands to use a Scythe properly, It could be treated as the Bastard sword, the description says "to heavy and unbalanced to use with one hand without the proper feat" Same thing to a Scythe: I belive that the -2 modifier show how hard is to use a scythe with onde hand, 'cause it is a little bigger than a Bastard Sword; btw, the use would be quite similar to the use of a Mylitary Pike, very brutal, indeed. Besides that, the DM only agreed because I have 16 in my Strg score, he belives that it is enougth to support the feat. If I had less than +2 score I wouldn't be able to use it (I wouldn't have enougth strength to cary it with a single arm).

[Matthew]

If your DM is House Ruling this, that's fine, but Monkey Grip does not allow a Character to use a Two Handed Weapon as a One Handed Weapon by the RAW. As you know, Bastard Swords and Dwarven War Axes are Two Handed Weapons that have a Special Exotic Weapon Proficiency associated with them. You can't use Great Swords or Great Axes in one hand by the RAW, which are the weapons you should compare the Scythe to.

[Fawsto]

Me and My DM agreed that If you have enough strength and the proper feat you can use any "one size superior to yours" weapons with one Hand. But look at this, essentialy a Big Lonsword IS a Greatsword (the damge and everything else is the same). Making it possible to apply the feat to use teh greatsword as a one handed wepon.

Well, to make a long history short, I know the rules, although I believe in what I said, and the DM allowed it for the stile. End of the History.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now answer this question, pls: Can a Kensai get a +5 Vorpal Longsword and transform it into a a +6 Vorpal Longsword? My version of the Complete warrior says nothing about it. And I think that, although it is considered magic, the bonus that the Kensai apply to his weapon is not magic indeed.

What you think about it? Should the bonus stack or not? (ps: I dont have the English version of the Complete Warrior)

[Matthew]

Yes, that is the definition of a House Rule, which is fine, but it will confuse people if not stated from the outset.

The mechanics of D&D don't really translate into Real Life.

Don't know much about the Kensai Class, I'm afraid. If it is an Enhancement Bonus, the answer is no.

[Fawsto]

Yes, this is quite the problem.. My book doesnt say a word if it is a Enhancement bonus or not... :smallconfused:

[Sieg]

Interesting. I thought that Monkey grip could be used even with two handed weapons. I was also thinking to make a full combat paladin and I liked the ideas.

The paladin's special mount can also attack right? There is any better mount for combat purposes?

[Karsh]

The Kensai class is only able to boost a weapon up to +10 equivalent. So no, that +5 Vorpal Longsword is staying that way until you're a level 11 Kensai (although I don't think there's an official epic progression for them).

[Stormcrow]

Gah, Arrgh.
*DM Convulses* I concede the point if your DM house ruled it then fine.
However, for those people playing at home.

A longsword for example is weighted so that the balance of the weapon swings from the hilt and from the last third of the blade making it easily used with a single hand.

Regardless of your strength a Scythe has a curved haft and if you note two handles because the entire weight of the weapon is in the solid inch thick metal blade, the weapon _cannot_ be used single handedly with any degree of success.

I say this as a classically trained european swordsman who has in his very real and very physically sound life handled both a greatsword (the size and weight approx of a large longsword) and a scythe.

[Duraska]

Did I read your topic post right that you're planning on going:

Fighter -> Paladin -> Kensai

If so, what is your character's story for abandoning the path of the Paladin? I'm just curious, from a roleplaying perspective.

[The_Snark]

Kensai is one of those classes that stipulates that paladins (and monks and similar classes) who multiclass in can still take levels in paladin. So it's not abandoning it, just taking a bit of a different path.

[Seffbasilisk]

The feat 'Divine Might' lets you burn turn-undeads for +Cha bonus damage to all attacks for a round.

and if a Kensai imbues an already enchanted weapon he can go above +10 pre-epic.

[Pegasos989]

Interesting. I thought that Monkey grip could be used even with two handed weapons. I was also thinking to make a full combat paladin and I liked the ideas.

The paladin's special mount can also attack right? There is any better mount for combat purposes?

Wizard gish's polymorphed familiar? Other than that, paladin's mount is the only mount surviving at high levels.


Well, I don't consider myself a great optimizer but lets face it, there's not a lot you can do with paladins. Two skill points per level, usually with Int as a dump stat and one feat every three levels - there's not a great deal to work with.

However, the one paladin character I do play is kind of a specialist 'turtle' paladin. At sixth level he has combat expertise (yeah, Int wasn't quite my dump stat - Dex was) and Imp combat expertise. He's scraped up enough to buy +1 full plate, uses a heavy shield and will often cast prot. from evil on himself. The idea is then to go into combat and fight defensively with full combat expertise. He's managed to get his AC up to 32 - which means he's very hard to hit but also doesn't do much damage.

Basically he assists the party by holding enemies until they can deal with them.

32? +1 Full plate for 19, imp. combat expertise for 25, fighting defensively for 27, heavy shield 29 and ...?


Did I read your topic post right that you're planning on going:

Fighter -> Paladin -> Kensai

If so, what is your character's story for abandoning the path of the Paladin? I'm just curious, from a roleplaying perspective.

Class is not character concept. He can very well be a paladin even if chooses to represent his fightning style with another class.






Anyways, unless it is dungeon based campaign, I would go with traditional charger paladin. If I have read the feats correctly, mounted combat, ride by attack and spirited charge means that charging with a lance and smiting, 5th level paladin with +3 str gets damage of 3d8 +24 if he has shield, more if not. (1d8 +3 +5 and it is tripled on a charge with lance and spirited charge)

8th level paladin with 18 str and +1 lance and using two hands gets 3d8 +45...

Add power attack and...

[Zincorium]

and if a Kensai imbues an already enchanted weapon he can go above +10 pre-epic.

It doesn't stack, the kensai ability spells out exactly what happens when you imbue an already magical weapon. You pay the difference between what it is and what you want it to be, and that's it. You can't add another enhancement bonus onto a +5 weapon, although if you're 6th or above you can add special abilities.

[Seffbasilisk]

It does stack. I worked it out a while ago.

If you're so set that it doesn't stack, can you give me quotes proving me wrong?

[Jack Mann]

Interesting. I thought that Monkey grip could be used even with two handed weapons. I was also thinking to make a full combat paladin and I liked the ideas.

The paladin's special mount can also attack right? There is any better mount for combat purposes?

It does. You can wield a large two-handed weapon in two hands at a -2 penalty, exactly as monkey grip states. It's just a really poor idea for a feat.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Heard of/refined for my own purposes an interesting Paladin Sword-and-Board/TWF build. Wield a one-handed weapon and a spiked heavy shield, take the feats Improved Shield Bash, Agile Shield Fighter (PHB2; allows an offhand shield bash at -2 to all attacks, like TWFing with a light weapon; no Dex requisite), Divine Might and Divine Shield. (Also requires Power Attack and Shield Specialization as prereqs.) For this number of feats, you may want to start with two Fighter levels.

Use the standard tricks to increase your turn attempts per day, and boost your Charisma through the roof. Before major combats, use Divine Shield, and every turn you get a full attack, use Divine Might. Charisma to AC and the Damage of every attack. Quite neat, especially since you can get an arbitrarily large number of turn attempts per day using Nightsticks. Not quite Divine Metacheese, but still fun.

[Roderick_BR]

I usually use my paladins as "meat shields" too.
Divine feats are best for paladins. Max your Charisma and Strength, and just got enough Wisdom to cast higher level spells.
Hmm... a grim-reaper styled paladin? Interesting concept. If he hunts undead, he could be from some church that is against the creation of undeads, because they "break the cycle or life", and adopt the image of Death as their symbol.
For multiclass, I suggest WarPriest. Besides the name, it's a good Paladin PrC. You get some high level spells at the cost of not rising your paladin's powers (smite, healing touch. etc)

[Pegasos989]

Grim reaper style paladin would be quite bad against undead as the x4 critical of scythe doesn't help against undead and it won't pass a lot of undead damage reductions. :(

The x4 critical against evil, non-undead is quite scary, though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If you want to wield a scythe one handed get a Kama/sickle or a pick. Scythes are two-handed tools (not really weapons) so the idea of using one single handed is dumb, the extra length of the shaft (technically a snath according to a diagram I found) just gets in the way. The idea of using a scythe in combat is pretty stupid as well. The blade is nasty and the handles make it a giant leaver but its too un-wieldy to use for anything but coup de grace.

[Renegade Paladin]

I wait until paladin level 8th and get a griffon for the special mount. They kick ass when properly rebuilt and assigned the feats from the bonus HD.

Aside from that, I usually play sword and board because frankly it's quite good enough; power attacking all over the place on top of smite is just crazy damage. Your damage output is usually good enough to just do power attack tradeoffs 1:1 with a one-handed weapon, die less because of the shield, and do just fine.

Extra Smiting is an excellent feat, as is Divine Might. If you do a lot of fighting outdoors, go for the Mounted Combat tree. Spirited Charge is great.

For spells, I'm a big fan of rhino's rush for doubling charge damage and zeal for getting to the back ranks to smash pesky casters. Depending on what you're fighting, undead bane weapon can be an excellent choice as well for the obvious reasons. Also, holy storm works for all your area attack needs, working particularly well for covering escapes, though it has a relatively expensive material component (a flask of holy water). Though of course you should never discount the utility of the old standby of bless weapon. Automatically confirming criticals is nice, particularly with a longsword or other extended crit range weapon.

[Neo]

Extra smiting is one normally saved to see how your campaign is going. ie. if you end up fighting lots of animals and neutral fey then you won't really get anything out of it until you start fighting lots of evil guys.

Divine Might is a must for a paladin, or Divine Shield if you're going for a defensive sort. If you get your Charisma into the 20s the bonus can get quite silly.

[Zincorium]

It does stack. I worked it out a while ago.

If you're so set that it doesn't stack, can you give me quotes proving me wrong?

From my copy of the Complete warrior, page 50:



**The XP cost presented here assumes that the weapon being imbued does not already have an enhancement bonus. If it does, the cost to imbue it with additional power is reduced. For instance, if a kensai has a +1 longsword and wants to imbue it with the power to be a +3 longsword, he may do so by paying the difference in XP cost between creating a +1 weapon and a +3 weapon (360 minus 40, or 320 XP).
So, you can't add to a weapon until you have the ability to pay more xp and add to the total plus.

And as far as the enhancement bonus, they never stack. If you have a masterwork sword (+1 enhancement bonus to attack) it doesn't give you a total of +2 to hit if you make it into a +1 weapon. Or if you have a +2 sword and someone casts magic weapon on it, it's still only a plus 2. If you can cite any example where it works differently, do tell.

[Jack Mann]

If you want to wield a scythe one handed get a Kama/sickle or a pick. Scythes are two-handed tools (not really weapons) so the idea of using one single handed is dumb, the extra length of the shaft (technically a snath according to a diagram I found) just gets in the way. The idea of using a scythe in combat is pretty stupid as well. The blade is nasty and the handles make it a giant leaver but its too un-wieldy to use for anything but coup de grace.

The scythe actually was once used as a weapon of war in Poland. However, the blade was turned so that it was straight on the shaft, not perpendicular. The war scythe, or kosa bojowa, was effectively a makeshift halberd.

[Matthew]

I am given to understand that such was a fairly common modification; the Fauchard or something like that is basically that sort of weapon, I think.

[pestilenceawaits]

I always find the warhorse to be a pain when I have played paladin I like to use the magic weapon variant that came out in a recent dragon magazine. I used a dire pick which did 1d8 and x4 on a crit. and with the exotic weapon proficiency it is one handed. Divine feats are awesome for paladins I really like divine vigor more hit points and +10 movement is great.

[Pegasos989]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pl/2/22/Pa_strona.jpg war scythe

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I make my paladins defensive juggernauts. They might not deal all that much damage, but killing them is a pain in the butt. I take spells specifically to make it hard to hit or hurt me, wear the heaviest and most aggravating armor I can find, use a tower shield, wield defensive weapons, and quite enjoy abusing divine grace with the best charisma cloak money can buy. Constitution is my big stat, obviously. I always try to have at least decent dexterity and wisdom scores to keep my saves high. Intelligence is meaningless, and strength, while good for hurting people and thus at least necessary, isn't as important to me as the other four stats. In order of importance to this build-
Constitution
Charisma
Wisdom
Dexterity
Strength
Intelligence

I use my mount likewise, though I like to have it offset my terrible land speed. So, I invest a good amount in riding feats and such. Humans are best suited for this role, with dwarves as a pretty good second. The only problem is that you'll never be as neat and flashy as the damage-dealing PC's.

[Pegasos989]

I make my paladins defensive juggernauts. They might not deal all that much damage, but killing them is a pain in the butt. I take spells specifically to make it hard to hit or hurt me, wear the heaviest and most aggravating armor I can find, use a tower shield, wield defensive weapons, and quite enjoy abusing divine grace with the best charisma cloak money can buy. Constitution is my big stat, obviously. I always try to have at least decent dexterity and wisdom scores to keep my saves high. Intelligence is meaningless, and strength, while good for hurting people and thus at least necessary, isn't as important to me as the other four stats. In order of importance to this build-
Constitution
Charisma
Wisdom
Dexterity
Strength
Intelligence

I use my mount likewise, though I like to have it offset my terrible land speed. So, I invest a good amount in riding feats and such. Humans are best suited for this role, with dwarves as a pretty good second. The only problem is that you'll never be as neat and flashy as the damage-dealing PC's.

Isn't the problem that you won't do much damage? How do you keep intelligent enemies just from thinking "Not a threat, I will walk around him to kill his party"? Or does the DM just roleplay all the enemies as attacking the most armored and least threatening opponent first?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I do a lot to act like a human shield to the damaging members of the party, particularly mages. I'm not the threat. The guy I'm protecting is :)

And if I take a cohort, I usually make that cohort into a physically weak character that needs that protection.

[Pegasos989]

I do a lot to act like a human shield to the damaging members of the party, particularly mages. I'm not the threat. The guy I'm protecting is :)

And if I take a cohort, I usually make that cohort into a physically weak character that needs that protection.


Yeah, but I mean... If the monster sees you and a mage behind you. He sees you are nigh impossible to hit but won't do much damage either, so how do you keep him from just walking around you to kill the other members?

This was what I meant.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Roleplaying.

How does the enemy know I'm a defensive build? Does he have Detect Stats?

[Pegasos989]

Roleplaying.

How does the enemy know I'm a defensive build? Does he have Detect Stats?

He sees you are using a tower shield and onehanded weapon, which tells a lot on how you balance your offensive power to your defensive. After the first few strikes towards you he knows how hard you are to hit and after you hit him for a round or two, he know how much attack power you pack. Besides, it is quite standard strategy to go to enemy spellcasters first unless their tanks demonstrate enough offensive power to be a bigger threat. :P

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Hmm...

My DM was an idiot, I guess.

But the build is still worthwhile if you've got enough of them. You might be able to sidestep one tank and go after the weaker party members. But what about a wall of them?

[Pegasos989]

Hmm...

My DM was an idiot, I guess.

But the build is still worthwhile if you've got enough of them. You might be able to sidestep one tank and go after the weaker party members. But what about a wall of them?


Hehe, it is quite common that DMs have NPCs attack the meatshield, who can take the hit. This both overpowers casters even more (as they aren't attacked as often even at low levels) and brings melee back to their level (they can feel useful even if not built with offensive power) at the same time. More importantly, it lets the party have less player deaths which means DM can put cooler monsters and higher level opponents against the players.
My DM does that often (the dragon attacks you with claws, the other meat shield with bite and the third guy with tail slap" - yeah, melee oriented party. I as the only caster - and arcane one - wasn't attacked...) and I can still enjoy his games, though I won't run games like that myself. All a matter of preference. :P

[Sieg]

I am Badly tired of explaining all around why Scythes ARE proper for combat! This is probably not the last time I'll say it but here it comes: More than any weapons but some axes, the Scythe curved blade and swinging method (halfmoon pulling to the centre) can cut off limbs and shatter chainmail with ease! Cutting heads off with a Scythe is more than possible: Its EASY! You need half of the strength to cut something with a scythe than with a sword, that's why famers used Scythes, tehy cut with ease. If it wasnt good for cutting things they'd use Swordlike tools! (Yes, wheat is harder than human skin: If Scythe cuts wheat, it cuts human skin and flesh, period!). I once used a Scythe in my grandpa's farm, the blade is extremely effective, no mather if you use it with one hand or 2 hands. BTW core rulebook 1: Players handbook says that the Scythe was balanced to fighting so it means that the oposite to the blade part (the end of the hilt) is heavier to sustain a balance and furthermore it is easier to swing for longer periods and with more strength. In my point of view they can be used with one hand. But I will not discuss this here, because the books are saying the opposite.


As a mount for a paladin, Id say that the Dire Cats (Tigger and Lion) are good for combat focused pallys: If they can do a full attack they can deal a lot of damage.

[Fawsto]

Oh, Thx =) I am glad that you liked the idea of a Grim Reaper.

About the Fighter > Paladin > Kensai thing is because my character will renew his vows as paladin when he becomes a kensai. I dont think he will have problems there.

Why everyone thinks a Scythe is such a bad weapon? It seems perfectly suited for fighting in my view.

Anyways, thanks for the posts. :smallcool:

[Bears With Lasers]

I once used a Scythe in my grandpa's farm, the blade is extremely effective, no mather if you use it with one hand or 2 hands.

"It's a shop. I can tell because of the pixels, and from seeing quite a few shops in my time

[Jack Mann]

Yes, the scythe, with the blade perpendicular to the shaft, swung as a farm tool, is a perfect weapon. If your enemy doesn't move. And never tries to attack you.

Look, the problem with the scythe is mostly in the way it's swung. It takes too much movement for the cut, and it leaves you wide open. This is fine when you're talking about cutting grain, but when you're cutting people, well, they tend to move around a bit. And, y'know, try and kill you when you're attacking them. With the scythe, you have to get them into your swing--and then keep them from getting closer. You have a rather narrow range where you can hit them, and once they're too close, it'll be damned difficult to do anything to 'em. This is somewhat true of a pike, of course, but it's a lot easier to keep them back with a pike. Or a war scythe.

This is why, whenever it's been used as a weapon, the blade was removed and put back on straight. You can set it against people trying to remove parts of your body you'd much rather keep. Limbs, to start with.

Now, is it cool and fantasy-like? Sure! And if that's what you're going for, then cool, more power to you. But it isn't a realistic weapon. There's a reason the scythe was never used as-is in combat. Our forebears knew something about farming implements and warfare.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Well, think about medieval warfare. You didn't hear about anyone going into battle with a scythe. Yet they're great cutting tools and apparently cheap enough for even farmers to afford.

The reason? Think about the way you wield a scythe. It's extremely awkward, leaves you no defense after any swing, and you have to actually flip the entire scythe around to try another slash. If your sword, axe, or mace-wielding opponent blocks you once, you're dead because he can counter and you can't. Especially if he has a shield on him to block your very pitiful single chop while he's countering. How are you going to stop that? The frail wooden handle of the scythe? It's bad enough that it's taking up two hands just to wield effectively at all.

Scythes just aren't good weapons until you make them so small that they're pretty much no longer scythes and more like kukri's. Not unless your opponent is entirely unarmed and at your mercy anyway.

However, D&D stats them pretty nice. Get one with the keen and thundering enchantments and have fun critting about twice or thrice in every fight.

EDIT: Ha, someone else posted a logical deduction of the fallacy of using a scythe in combat first. Bravo, sir. Your points are valid.

[Matthew]

Maybe we should discuss the historical merits of the Scythe as a Close Combat Weapon on the Real Life Weapons and Armour Thread?

[Catharsis]

I don't quite remember all the Kensai features, but aren't they focused on Cha and Concentration checks? If I were to build a Kensai, I'd start with 5 levels of Paladin (of Al'Akbar maybe, with a falchion) and rank the stats as follows: Cha ~ Str > Con > Dex > Wis, with Int being fixed at 13 (for the prereqs). Who needs Wisdom if I'm going to branch off into a non-caster PrC as soon as possible? Both Paladin and Kensai give me good Will saves anyway. Sounds like fun.

Another possibility would be to start with Paladin (Corellon), and swap the ranking of Str and Dex. He would wield a rapier with finesse and capitalize on defense, relying on things like Divine Might, Power Surge and frequent crits to provide a credible threat if needed. Hmmm, maybe a Swashbuckler would make an even better lead-in?

[Jack Mann]

Nope. In fact, only one of their abilities has anything to do with charisma, and it's essentially a way to make up for a low charisma score (gaining a bonus to the charisma based skills). They do have several abilities that require a good concentration check, however. If you start with paladin, then you might want to keep charisma high for divine grace, but otherwise, you don't need much.

[Bears With Lasers]

Paladins don't get good Will saves. Divine Grace, which applies equally, but paladins are Fort good, Will and Ref bad.

[Catharsis]

Nope. In fact, only one of their abilities has anything to do with charisma, and it's essentially a way to make up for a low charisma score (gaining a bonus to the charisma based skills).
Huh, true. The sample kensai even has Cha 8! Then again, he's a monk.


They do have several abilities that require a good concentration check, however. If you start with paladin, then you might want to keep charisma high for divine grace, but otherwise, you don't need much.
The paladin levels are mostly for the Concentration prereq, which you can't get with any other full-BAB class. And if you're going Swb 3/Pal 2, it would be a pity not to make use of divine grace... but one has to ask oneself whether it's worth it to invest heavily into Cha for the sake of saves. Dex>Int>Cha>Con>Str>Wis then? Or switch Cha and Con?

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Someone needs to make an arcane paladin prestige class, in the vein of either the bard or the sorcerer. The paladin/sorcerer is one of my favorite gestalt builds, and it really makes a good CHA score a benefit.

Maybe it can do other things too, like enhance the mount in some special way or let smite attacks deal magic damage. Might have to sacrifice the BAB or something to even it out, but a character that can effectively play every COMBAT role in the game moderately better than a bard could be fun. (I specify combat because there's no way in hell a paladin will ever match a skill monkey at, well, skills).

[Bears With Lasers]

Try the Knight of the Weave prestige class in Champions of Valor. There's some substitution levels for Mystran paladins, too.

[illathid]

If you like paladins, I suggest you check out the Rebalanced Paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045). It tries to make paladins balanced against the Tome of Battle classes. I think it's a rather cool concept.

[Scalenex]

Isn't the problem that you won't do much damage? How do you keep intelligent enemies just from thinking "Not a threat, I will walk around him to kill his party"? Or does the DM just roleplay all the enemies as attacking the most armored and least threatening opponent first?

I have my NPCs b-line for the PC wizards killing them whenever possible. The PCs go straight around my NPC meat shields so I return the favor. This benefits the meat shields indirectly and lets them get kills. Here's how:

I'm going to use a basketball/soccer metaphor. The very best players typically get double or triple teamed. When the star basketball player has occupied most of the opposing team, he leaves his teammates open to score. This particular group of PCs, the party wizard is an abjurer. He begins the battle by using whatever combo of offensive spells he has. Once people run around his team's melee warriors, he uses defensive spells to protect himself. By this point the meat shields the NPCs have avoided are now flanking them and their strongest opponent has switched from the wizard to the melee warriors which means they are screwed. The bad guys must now split their attacks to have any chance of doing anything. Intelligent characters, NPC or PC, know that splitting attacks isn't very effective. The best way is to thin your enemies out a few at a time. The abjurer/meat shield bait and switch is very handy for my PCs. Particularly since this party's warriors are pretty mobile and good at getting and avoiding attacks of oppurtunity.

There was a nice tangent on meat shields and turtle warriors, and another one about scythes. Now to get to the actual thread. Paladin character creation. I toyed with the idea of taking two levels of fighter and then going with Paladin from then on out. If you played a human paladin, you'd could have every single riding feat by the time you get the warhorse as a class feature. Obviously, the more dungeons you have and the less wilderness/battlefield stories you have, the less useful this combination would be, but if your goal was to be the ultimate mounted warrior, that would be the route I'd take.

[grinner666]

When I'm building a Paladin I usually place stats in the following order:

Str
Cha
Wis or Con, the other being next in the lineup,
Int and Dex, either can be used as a dump stat if your two lowest stats aren't equal.

The groups I've played with never use the point-allocation system, so I can't get more specific than that on stats.

I usually go sword-and-board (or lance-and-board). As the Paladin is sort of short on feats for a frontline fighter (and short on Dex if I'm playing one), I generally go with Power Attack and Cleave at first level (my Paladins are all human; I remember 1E, even if Wizards doesnt). :smalltongue: At later levels I'll take Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus in whichever weapon I decide I like best, along with Great Cleave (sometimes) and Improved Critical. Depending on the resources available to the campaign, I might take other feats, but I'll stick with core rulebooks here.

This creates a character with a decent AC, good damage capacity (especially against evil opponents) and good saves all around. With decent rolls he'll have good hit points and at least FAIR spellcasting ability (without decent rolls I'll play another class; I remember that about 1E, too).

With an average Int he'll max out Ride, Diplomacy and Sense Motive for the first few levels. After that he'll switch points from Ride to Knowledge (Religion) for that bonus to turning undead, and Concentration ... though my Paladins rarely try to cast spells while in melee. If he happens to have any extra skill points (unlikely considering my usual stat allocation), he'll split them between those skills.

Then I go looking for a holy longsword/lance/battleaxe/whatever. *grins* Making friends with a good Cleric can come in handy there ...

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

I think the first question to ask is what kind of paladin you are trying to build. Are you gearing one towards mounted combat, or normal melee combat. After that, then you can pick your skills and feats to match. Personally, I would have my strongest stat be CHA then STR. What your stats are also largely depend on the type of character creation (4d6 or point buy). I recently drew up a paladin for a game with a 25 point buy (why in my opinion makes for a really weak character, but oh well) and I had to sacrifice INT and WIS to get a good CHA and STR.

[Tor the Fallen]

What level would you have to be to ride a fiendish deinonychus? (playing a halfling PoS)

[Renegade Paladin]

If you like paladins, I suggest you check out the Rebalanced Paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045). It tries to make paladins balanced against the Tome of Battle classes. I think it's a rather cool concept.
...

Stolen. :smallbiggrin:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Hmm...I dig some of those fixes, especially the Specializations, expanded Lay on Hands, and expanded spellcasting (assuming Rangers would get something equivalent in the spellcasting department.) Still, I could do without a lot of that if they just gave the Paladin good Will saves and more bleedin' skill points. But then, I'm a skill point junkie. I also dislike per encounter abilities, on principle that a) nothing else has those anymore, b) that probably tips this class into way overpowered, and c) I just don't like it.

[Matthew]

Access to Jump, Climb and Swim as Class Skills would go a long way for me.

I don't really want to see everyone else 'powered up' as much as casters 'powered down' anyway.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I will give it credit for making the last 15 levels of the class not suck, though..

[Renegade Paladin]

Hmm...I dig some of those fixes, especially the Specializations, expanded Lay on Hands, and expanded spellcasting (assuming Rangers would get something equivalent in the spellcasting department.) Still, I could do without a lot of that if they just gave the Paladin good Will saves and more bleedin' skill points. But then, I'm a skill point junkie. I also dislike per encounter abilities, on principle that a) nothing else has those anymore, b) that probably tips this class into way overpowered, and c) I just don't like it.
X per day just doesn't fit from a dramatic standpoint. Besides, if the paladin saves his smites all day hoping for a BBEG to use them on and then doesn't get one, it's just a waste. :smallwink:

[Roderick_BR]

Ya know, a big flaw in DnD's movement system, is that you can laysurely walk around a character, no matter how much they want to stay in the way, as long you have a good speed. I mean, who here never had to force their by someone, that wanted to block your way? Those with older brothers knows how it is.
The way to solve it would be having a readied action to move in the way of any character that stays in the way. You must assume that a person can't just easily dodge any moving obstacles, though the movement rules allow you to do anything. Try to imagine yourself having a whole round to walk around an angry lion, just because you have enough movement to walk and close the door behind you. DnD allows you to do that

And for the meat-shields: put a cloack of charisma, then use a vest of resistence, to "send your saving throws to tha stratosphere"

[ExHunterEmerald]

My Eberron pally started with the Eccelsiarch feat, since he had some connection due to royalty with church authority.
Power Attack came next, followed by cleave.
I'll eventually move on to Leap Attack and more of the melee stuff.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

My paladin's tend to be balanced, usually opting for 1-hander/shield, but I will go with two-handers occasioanlly. I'll echo Divine Might for all paladins, and I tend to customize for the campaign (extra smiting for lots of evil, disrupting smite if there is a lot of undead, ect..)

However, I tend not to go beyond 5-6th level in paladin, opting for a prestige ( Fist of Raziel, Shining Blade of Hieroeneus are my current favourites, I really like the Hellreaver from the new Tyrants of the 9 hell's book.) The reason for this is that there is unfourtunatly no reason to do so.

The new rebalenced paladin class mentioned here is changing my mind a bit...

[Fawsto]

Now that you mentioned, my DMs campaing is moving a little fast, pehaps I can consider the use of two prestige classes. This shining blade of heironeus, if the bonuses he applys to his weapon could stack wiht the kensai's ones It'd make a temendous combo. Unfortunatly, disarm = death... Pehaps with a returning weapon this woul'd be no problem... I dunno.

This remembers me that one way to express that a character has reached epic lvls is his weapon, that means that a fighter2/paladin8/kensai6/shiningblade4 can stand to a Epic Weapon Wielder Character. Now I start to realize a King Arthur, Roland or Siedfried as an example of my characters concept. Anyone can help me with a name for my weapon? (no Excaliburs, Durandalls, Balmungs and etc, I need something original... What good name can I apply to a Scythe?)

[illathid]

Hmm...I dig some of those fixes, especially the Specializations, expanded Lay on Hands, and expanded spellcasting (assuming Rangers would get something equivalent in the spellcasting department.) Still, I could do without a lot of that if they just gave the Paladin good Will saves and more bleedin' skill points. But then, I'm a skill point junkie. I also dislike per encounter abilities, on principle that a) nothing else has those anymore, b) that probably tips this class into way overpowered, and c) I just don't like it.

Have you read the Tome of Battle? All of those abilities are per encounter, and they get a lot more of them than the rebalanced paladin gets smites. One high level maneuver even adds a flat 100 to your damage on an attack, which is certainly more powerful than a smite evil.

[Matthew]

Ya know, a big flaw in DnD's movement system, is that you can laysurely walk around a character, no matter how much they want to stay in the way, as long you have a good speed. I mean, who here never had to force their by someone, that wanted to block your way? Those with older brothers knows how it is.
The way to solve it would be having a readied action to move in the way of any character that stays in the way. You must assume that a person can't just easily dodge any moving obstacles, though the movement rules allow you to do anything. Try to imagine yourself having a whole round to walk around an angry lion, just because you have enough movement to walk and close the door behind you. DnD allows you to do that

And for the meat-shields: put a cloack of charisma, then use a vest of resistence, to "send your saving throws to tha stratosphere"

I think you might consider readying a Charge to deal with this sort of thing...

[Renegade Paladin]

I think you might consider readying a Charge to deal with this sort of thing...
Cometary Collision, anyone? :smallbiggrin:

[Godhand]

If you like paladins, I suggest you check out the Rebalanced Paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045). It tries to make paladins balanced against the Tome of Battle classes. I think it's a rather cool concept.

What's this? A reason to take Paladin past level 5? Great Googly Moogly, that is a very nice build. Gentlemen, we have the paladin.

[Hopeless]

Sorry if this sounds dumb, but whilst Monkey Grip requires the character to have a weapon focus in the weapon concerned imparting a -2 penalty to hit whilst using that weapon one handed I thought it required the character to be at least 3rd level or have a BAB of +3?
Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

And as for paladins i have seen great ones and truly appalling ones run under misconceptions all of which I can't go into here save I do agree with the idea that characters should multiclass to explain their paladinhood.

Take care!

[Matthew]

Monkey Grip

Type: General
Sources: Complete Warrior (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786928808/realmshelps-20/)
Sword and Fist (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786918292/realmshelps-20/)
You are able to use a larger weapon than other people your size.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it rakes you to use the weapon does not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off-hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon.
Normal: You can use a melee weapon one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, and the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon increases. A larger light weapon is considered a one-handed weapon, a larger one-handed weapon is considered a two-handed weapon, and you cannot use a larger two-handed weapon at all.

+1 BAB, no difference to Handedness, no need for Weapon Focus.

I hope that answers your query.