Building An Iconic Dragon

[Ortesk]

So how would one go about building/role playing a great wyrm dragon. I've fought my share but found it lacking, mainly due to people playing them a big me hit you guy, as a dm i want to show my group an iconic dragon, one which is to be feared and spoke of in whisper. the kind which can wreck kingdoms and seduce angels, so who can help me bring the fear of dragons back into a group who has had many a dm play them as scaly barbarians?

[Humble Master]

Simply put, play the dragon smart. It should have complex magical contingencies guarding it's horde, it should manipulate nearby kingdoms and it should have hordes of loyal Kobold minions that worship it as a god. If the PC's charge into it's cave blindly have them get mowed down my repeating ballista hidden by illusions. Heck, if they even know about the dragon's cave send skilled assassins to take care of them. The local governments should be under the dragons total control and should basically kill any adventurer that comes near for fear the that adventurer attacking the dragon and pissing it off.

[molten_dragon]

Remember two things.

1. Great wyrm dragons are really, really smart.

2. Great wyrm dragons are powerful spellcasters.

Play them more like wizards than like barbarians, and dragons are a hell of a lot scarier.

[Benthesquid]

An Iconic dragon? Well, ideally they should be killed by a thundergod... (I kid, I kid. They should be guarding the MacGuffin, and bypassed with some clever help from a friendly NPC :smalltongue:)

Seriously though, if you're problem is that your group is used to dragons acting like scaly barbarians then don't... do that.

A dragon, given their apparent ability to breed with just about everything, could be the matriarch of a vast network of alliances overt or covert (think an evil scaly Queen Victoria- marrying off her offspring to important figures, or just outright killing those figures and installing her offspring in their place.) Have the PCs stumble into the region controlled by her in this manner, and gradually realize that not only are all the local rulers related, but there's something a bit... lizardish about them.

[Chambers]

As others have mentioned the key is to use their spells effectively. A Great Wyrm Red Dragon casts spells as a Sorcerer but has access to both Wizard/Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#ninthLevelSorcererWizardS pells) and Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#ninthLevelClericSpells) spell lists. They're what Mystic Theurges wish they could be.

Take a wander through those spell lists. They can call allies (Gate, Planar Binding, Planar Ally), they can use any of the Enchantment spells to force enemies to become their allies, they have all of the Divinations to find out what they need to know.

They have Shapechange so they don't have to go around in Dragon form when they're conducting business. They can create menageries of captured foes (Trap the Soul, Binding, Temporal Stasis, Soul Bind, Sequestor), and ward their lairs with the best Abjurations (Guard and Wards, Symbol of X, Glyph of Warding, Forbiddance).

They've got complete access to the best 2 spell lists in the game. Use it to your advantage.

[Ortesk]

Awesome ideas guys, thanks alot. Also how would one go about statting/building a great wyrm gold dragon? my group isnt white knights in shiny armor, so i want them seeing the deadliest of MM foes, the great wyrm gold dragon

[Waker]

Remember that even the dumbest of Great Wyrms would be considered a genius by human standards. Secondly, unless the dragon just moved into a new lair, they have had hundreds if not thousands of years to tweak their lairs and ponder combat strategies. Dragons are enormously powerful physical combatants, have access to an array of magical abilities and are one of the few NPCs that you can justifiably give resources that compare to the party. On top of this, even before taking into account magic, they can potentially fly, dig, swim and climb; not to mention exist comfortably in extreme environments.

So what does all of this information mean to you?
1. Use the environment The lair of a Red Dragon can be full of noxious and toxic fumes, lava flows and steam vents. Black Dragons lairs can be flooded in an instant, contain venomous reptiles/insects and a variety of poisonous fungi. The frozen home to a White Dragon attacks the party with the threat of avalanches, rotted ice floors and subzero temperatures. Even before the party faces the dragon, they face the front door.
2. First Bitten, Twice Shy A dragon that has lived to Great Wyrm has had enough battles to fill several history books worth of pages. Imagine that if the party can think of it, the dragon has seen first-hand. Plan for multiple contingencies right off the bat, but prepare to wing it a bit and give the dragon a few freebies in response to the unexpected. A dragon is never caught completely off guard. At most they are pleasantly surprised.
3. Resource Management In the millennia that a dragon has lived, they can gather a fair amount of treasure, including useful magical equipment. On top of this, many dragons are in possession of servitors such as Kobolds and Lizardfolk. Between all this, the dragon has traps, soldiers and a number of weapons to point at the party. Don't be shy to suckerpunch the party with a group of "adventurous" Lizardfolk led by a Half-Dragon.
4. Play To Your Strengths You have access to one of the more impressive attack routines, numerous spells, a breath weapon, and Frightful Presence. Know who is susceptible to what. Target the BSF with your Will attacks...
5. Overcome Weakness The biggest weakness you have is that you are alone. Action economy is your true foe, so between tactics and resources you need to prevent the party from fully utilizing their turns. Hit-and-Run tactics, BFC and debuffs will be your bread and butter. Resist the urge to just throw down and go toe-to-toe with the party. That is the battle plan of a stupid wyrmling who won't see the Very Young age category.

[WhamBamSam]

As others have mentioned the key is to use their spells effectively. A Great Wyrm Red Dragon casts spells as a Sorcerer but has access to both Wizard/Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#ninthLevelSorcererWizardS pells) and Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm#ninthLevelClericSpells) spell lists. They're what Mystic Theurges wish they could be.

Take a wander through those spell lists. They can call allies (Gate, Planar Binding, Planar Ally), they can use any of the Enchantment spells to force enemies to become their allies, they have all of the Divinations to find out what they need to know.

They have Shapechange so they don't have to go around in Dragon form when they're conducting business. They can create menageries of captured foes (Trap the Soul, Binding, Temporal Stasis, Soul Bind, Sequestor), and ward their lairs with the best Abjurations (Guard and Wards, Symbol of X, Glyph of Warding, Forbiddance).

They've got complete access to the best 2 spell lists in the game. Use it to your advantage.Dragons also have UMD as a class skill, a ton of HD, and high Cha. If the OP builds his Great Wyrm Gold Dragon with max ranks in UMD, it'll have a modifier of +55 (+59 with scrolls if you go all out and put 5 cross-class ranks each into Spellcraft and Decipher Script). It essentially cannot fail the check ever.

Also, Dragons are old, have lots of HD, and Contingency and Craft Contingent Spell exist. If you're really optimizing the thing to the hilt, it will have contingencies to its contingencies from centuries before any of the PCs were born.

On the melee side of things, Great Wyrm dragons also have a lot of HD which means a lot of feats and a high Initiator Level. Spend three feats on Martial Study for Counter Charge, Baffling Defense, and either Wall of Blades or Balista Throw. Now when the ubercharger thinks he's finally got a chance to end it with a pounce, he doesn't. When the Wizard thinks he's being clever and tries to target touch AC with Shivering Touch, he faces your 55+d20 Sense Motive check or your 51+d20 attack roll instead. When you feel like doing big scaly fanged monster things instead of using spells, make a Flyby Attack Balista Throw and fling one party member through his friends to land prone on a death trap one of your kobolds made 60 feet away. Alternately, you can tack a level or two of Swordsage onto the dragon and get access to Tornado Throw, which is all kinds of fun with a 250ft movement speed (310 if you cast Haste and Aerial Alacrity) and maybe some Diamond Mind stuff as well.

The Dragon's biggest weaknesses are its Touch AC, Dex damage/drain, and the Action Economy. Players making touch attacks are why I like Baffling Defense and Wall of Blades so much. The risks of Dex damage/drain can be mitigated by knowing in advance how the players intend to pull them off, which the dragon should be trying to do, in character (see other posts on being god of the kobolds and being the dominating force in all local politics). The action economy is more of a problem. The Great Wyrm Gold's Foresight SLA helps, as can most magical action economy breaking things (Greater Celerity, Summons, Quicken, the list goes on) and the ever popular dragony hit and run tactics, but that's going to be an uphill battle, and the reason that the players might have a chance if they're equally well prepared.

How optimized is your party? What characters does it consist of and what level? That would help to stat out a dragon at the right power level - seriously deadly, but not just a big scaly "rocks fall."

[Vaz]

Can it have Class Levels? Is there a maximum number of HD/CR you wish to have?

[Scow2]

Dragons also have UMD as a class skill, a ton of HD, and high Cha. If the OP builds his Great Wyrm Gold Dragon with max ranks in UMD, it'll have a modifier of +55 (+59 with scrolls if you go all out and put 5 cross-class ranks each into Spellcraft and Decipher Script). It essentially cannot fail the check ever.

Also, Dragons are old, have lots of HD, and Contingency and Craft Contingent Spell exist. If you're really optimizing the thing to the hilt, it will have contingencies to its contingencies from centuries before any of the PCs were born.

On the melee side of things, Great Wyrm dragons also have a lot of HD which means a lot of feats and a high Initiator Level. Spend three feats on Martial Study for Counter Charge, Baffling Defense, and either Wall of Blades or Balista Throw. Now when the ubercharger thinks he's finally got a chance to end it with a pounce, he doesn't. When the Wizard thinks he's being clever and tries to target touch AC with Shivering Touch, he faces your 55+d20 Sense Motive check or your 51+d20 attack roll instead. When you feel like doing big scaly fanged monster things instead of using spells, make a Flyby Attack Balista Throw and fling one party member through his friends to land prone on a death trap one of your kobolds made 60 feet away. Alternately, you can tack a level or two of Swordsage onto the dragon and get access to Tornado Throw, which is all kinds of fun with a 250ft movement speed (310 if you cast Haste and Aerial Alacrity) and maybe some Diamond Mind stuff as well.

The Dragon's biggest weaknesses are its Touch AC, Dex damage/drain, and the Action Economy. Players making touch attacks are why I like Baffling Defense and Wall of Blades so much. The risks of Dex damage/drain can be mitigated by knowing in advance how the players intend to pull them off, which the dragon should be trying to do, in character (see other posts on being god of the kobolds and being the dominating force in all local politics). The action economy is more of a problem. The Great Wyrm Gold's Foresight SLA helps, as can most magical action economy breaking things (Greater Celerity, Summons, Quicken, the list goes on) and the ever popular dragony hit and run tactics, but that's going to be an uphill battle, and the reason that the players might have a chance if they're equally well prepared.

How optimized is your party? What characters does it consist of and what level? That would help to stat out a dragon at the right power level - seriously deadly, but not just a big scaly "rocks fall."Keep in mind that for characters without TOB class levels, maneuvers are one-shot things in an encounter. Use something scary enough to steal its

A better defense to bolster their Touch AC is Shimmering Scales... though the maneuvers are still good for defending against enemies.

Something to keep in mind about Dragons is that, although they potentially have access to the two best spell lists in the game, they only know a VERY limited number of spells. They're Sorcerers, not Wizard-Clerics. They'd also have a very generalized spell list: You don't live very long if you spend your entire life in battle, and if you spend all your spells known on staying alive, you lack the ones that would make your life fun and worth living. They also cross-class UMD, when they have the skill points to spend.

They also don't have access to the entire Cleric spell list: Only certain domain spells, depending on color.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

They also don't have access to the entire Cleric spell list: Only certain domain spells, depending on color.

No, those with access to cleric spells get access to the entire list (and a few domains as well).

[ZamielVanWeber]

They also don't have access to the entire Cleric spell list: Only certain domain spells, depending on color.

No. it is the entire list plus domains:


Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells.

[Chambers]

Something to keep in mind about Dragons is that, although they potentially have access to the two best spell lists in the game, they only know a VERY limited number of spells. They're Sorcerers, not Wizard-Clerics. They'd also have a very generalized spell list: You don't live very long if you spend your entire life in battle, and if you spend all your spells known on staying alive, you lack the ones that would make your life fun and worth living. They also cross-class UMD, when they have the skill points to spend.

Scrolls, wands, staffs, and runestaves all expand their spell versatility. They don't even really need UMD; if the spell is on the Sor/Wiz or Cleric spell list they can use it.

[WhamBamSam]

Keep in mind that for characters without TOB class levels, maneuvers are one-shot things in an encounter. Use something scary enough to steal its True, but most combats don't last that long. The thing I'd worry more about without actual martial adept levels is not gaining access to Stance of Alacrity and only being able to use one of the counter maneuvers in a given round.


A better defense to bolster their Touch AC is Shimmering Scales... though the maneuvers are still good for defending against enemies.Assuming you mean Scintilating Scales, that's only going to bring the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon's touch AC up to a whopping 13. It's just too big to protect that way.


Something to keep in mind about Dragons is that, although they potentially have access to the two best spell lists in the game, they only know a VERY limited number of spells. They're Sorcerers, not Wizard-Clerics. They'd also have a very generalized spell list: You don't live very long if you spend your entire life in battle, and if you spend all your spells known on staying alive, you lack the ones that would make your life fun and worth living. They also cross-class UMD, when they have the skill points to spend.Dragons can actually sort of play at being Wizards by using the alternate curse in BoVD to increase their age and change their spells known that way (in the Great Wyrm Gold example, suppose he's really only a Wyrm. He curses himself up before refreshing his spell slots for the day, and gets to cherry pick his two 9ths, one of his 8ths, and as he passed through an even Sorc level, one spell of 7th level or below). Or if one of his Kobold minions is a 7th level Psion he could make those same adjustments for a piddling 50exp via Psychic Reformation since they gained two Sorc levels on their most recent HD. He could do both in fact if you wanted. Or just use scrolls and such, since the expenses will easily be recouped if he kills even one high level adventurer and takes their stuff.

[Red Fel]

Things I would take into consideration.

1: Longevity. A Great Wyrm has been around for what may seem like an eternity. It has seen the rise and fall of empires, and the antics of mortals - even great heroes - are like the buzzing of flies. This doesn't mean it won't take a threat seriously - on the contrary, it has likely survived due to a healthy degree of paranoia - but rather, it is likely to take a much more patient view. Even the more savage, rapacious dragons, having lived to such an age, will be slower to act, slower to react. (Again, this doesn't mean they can't fight, but rather that they won't do things hastily.) Expect this longevity to manifest in personality, as well. A Great Wyrm will appear lazy, slow, sluggish. Its words will come slowly, liltingly, with a smirk. Its humor will be dark and sardonic. Even the most noble of dragons will look condescendingly on the PCs. This leads us to...

2: Personality. Something this powerful, this important, needs to be played with personality. Don't just make it another monster, albeit massively statted, to be killed and looted. Give it a voice. And that voice depends substantially on the type of dragon.

A metallic dragon can expect to be weary, exasperated, and perhaps annoyed with the protagonists. Picture a parent who has had to tell the children one too many times not to put things into the light socket. Even the most altruistic of dragons will grow frustrated with how slowly the lesser races seem to grasp important, massive, universal concepts. More mischievous dragons will have slowed with age, but will offer sarcastic barbs and cryptic remarks, almost expressly to infuriate the PCs. More noble dragons will be charitable, but quick to remind these peasants that they are dragon royalty, and the PCs are trespassing in their domain.

A chromatic dragon will be understandably more sadistic, but at the same time lazy. While they are known for their cruelty, chromatic Great Wyrms have had the time to indulge every possible vice a thousand times over. They have looted every castle, devoured every knight, tortured and tasted one of every race. They are tired of yet another band of so-called heroes thinking they can best a Great Wyrm. Unlike a metallic dragon, however, whose emotions are tempered with the knowledge that all experience is ultimately fleeting due to their prolonged existence, the chromatic Great Wyrm will respond violently to provocation. Expect unparalleled arrogance. They may treat the PCs as insignificant, offering them the chance to walk away, since such frail creatures are beneath a Great Wyrm; but if provoked, they will snap violently, roaring and reminding these insects what it means to anger an ancient being of unspeakable power.

Even good dragons have ethics and morals which are somewhat alien in nature to most mortal races, so a Great Wyrm - even a metallic one - may idly observe how delicious the PCs look. And he may not be kidding about it, either.

3: Power Overwhelming. A Great Wyrm is a being of unspeakable power. It has lived for centuries, and has grown and learned more than almost anything short of a deity has any right to. That isn't a quiet, hidden power, either - it radiates from every pore. A Great Wyrm's lair pulses with half-slumbering magical energies, and the atmosphere will be thick with untapped power. The PCs, even those not sensitive to magic, should feel that oppressive might weighing down on them, making them feel astonishingly insignificant.

Dragons are naturally majestic, terrifying, awe-inspiring creatures. Go into lavish detail on the massive monstrosity confronting the PCs; the glistening scales, the powerful claws like spears, the teeth like swords, the tail whose slightest twitch sends shudders through the ground. Describe in detail the eyes, those massive, half-lidded, haunting orbs, which contain secrets unfathomable to the mind, which have seen more than any mortal could dare to dream of.

Above all, through words and images, deliver the idea of a being so sublime, so magnificent, so above all other things, that the encounter feels less like a meeting with a monster, and more like a glimpse of a god.

And then that god sets its eyes upon the party, and reminds them why "May you gain the attention of people in high places" is considered a curse in some cultures.

[ryu]

How do you make a dragon scary? Depends. How powerful a party are you catering to? You know full well that I have answers up to and including being relatively challenging to a t0 party.

[Ortesk]

About build level, I want him able to hold his own against a tier 2 group, no worries facing against a tier 1 who's using just godly abilities and pown hammers. Also, he will be a cr of 27 vs four 20 level pc's, i just want the fear of god, and then victory dance when they win, brought to them

[Emperor Tippy]

A Great Wyrm dragon is one that has lived more than twelve hundred years.

A Great Wyrm Red (perhaps the iconic dragon enemy) has a natural intelligence score of 26, Wisdom of 27, and Charisma of 26. Now add in the +4/+5 Inherent bonuses to every ability score (it's a dragon that has outlived most dynasties in human history) and the +6 stat boosting items and you are looking at 36/38/36 for mental ability scores.

Unless your party has a level 20 max Int wizard, the Great Wyrm Red is smarter than your party wizard.

---
A Great Wyrm Red can also have 40 Crafted Contingent spells on its body. This means that said dragon does have 40 such contigencies.

40 HD also means that said dragon gets 34 feats, all of which can be Epic if it so desires (thanks to Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos). Permanent Emanation: Selective Antimagic Field means that it is always protected by an AMF that does nothing to the dragon when it wants to be. Permanent Emanation: Selective Temporal Repair means that no one else gets to use Time Stop or Celerity around the dragon. Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble means that the Dragon can't be screwed over by being forced onto a dead magic or time locked demiplane.

With a +5 Tome of Dex and a +6 item the dragon has 21 Dex and thus qualifies for Exceptional Deflection, which means once per round it gets to punch away any ranged attack.

It also qualifies for Tenacious Magic: Permanency and thus has every spell that can be made Permanent on its self made Permanent (and thus Dispel or Disjunction just knocks them down for 1d4 rounds).

This also means that its entire lair is riddled with things like Tenacious Permanent Selective Invisible Prismatic Walls. It is also covered in a Selective Forbiddance which means that only the dragon gets to teleport around its base.

Then you have the Improved Metamagic feat taken multiple times. Five times makes even Persistent Spell only a +1 metamagic.

And Improved Spell Capacity for extra spell slots of 9th+ level. And with bonus spell slots for high Charisma, the first 4 times you take this feat it gives you 2 spell slots each time.

There is also Ignore Material Components, which any caster who can take it should take it. And all of the sudden that Dragon isn't the dragon, its an Ice Assassin or Simulacrum.

The Fast Healing feat gives the dragon Fast Healing 3, which can be down right nasty.

Throw up the Permanent Emanation: Selective AMF along with a Persistent Lesser Ironguard and you get to laugh at anything except non metallic weapons and instant conjurations. Now throw in Ghostform and you are immune to pretty much everything but Orbs. Contingent Persistent Energy Immunity (one for each type of energy) can pretty much cover that.

---
If you actually play a Great Wyrm to their stats and potential then the dragon will shred the vast majority of parties in seconds. Every trick that the paranoid level 20 caster gets to pull, the Great Wyrm Red can generally pull off better.

[ryu]

About build level, I want him able to hold his own against a tier 2 group, no worries facing against a tier 1 who's using just godly abilities and pown hammers. Also, he will be a cr of 27 vs four 20 level pc's, i just want the fear of god, and then victory dance when they win, brought to them

Pretty much what tippy said except slightly gentler. The only simple way around what I just read that I could see a tier 2 use would be a sorcerer abusing arcane spell fusion shenanigans of the highest order for literally unlimited spells in a turn. Now realize that the dragon is also a sorcerer and the only reason it isn't doing that is because tippy held back a trick or two. That is a very high tier 1 dragon setup. Something I wouldn't expect a party of competent tier 2s to take down without months of preparing and a lot of luck, or shenanigans.

[Chambers]

@Tippy

I've seen you mention the Selective Antimagic Field a few times now. What's the 'Selective' part? A metamagic feat?

[Emperor Tippy]

It's something of a pity that you don't want CR 30, because that lets the dragon pick up 8 levels of Factotum.

Since you said CR 27 though, throw on a level of Swordsage and maybe a level of Warblade or Crusader. The dragon has an IL of more than 20 which means that the whole list of maneuvers is open to you. Aura of Perfect Order is probably the best stance for you.

Persistent Delay Death plus Persistent Favor of the Martyr is better than Immortal Fortitude and none of the other stances are just generally that helpful to you.

[Emperor Tippy]

@Tippy

I've seen you mention the Selective Antimagic Field a few times now. What's the 'Selective' part? A metamagic feat?

Yeah, Selective Spell from Shining South. +1 spell level and you get to choose one creature to be totally unaffected by a spell with an Area.

In the case of an AMF, it does nothing to shut down your spell casting or items but it still works as normal against everyone else.

[Ortesk]

A Great Wyrm dragon is one that has lived more than twelve hundred years.

A Great Wyrm Red (perhaps the iconic dragon enemy) has a natural intelligence score of 26, Wisdom of 27, and Charisma of 26. Now add in the +4/+5 Inherent bonuses to every ability score (it's a dragon that has outlived most dynasties in human history) and the +6 stat boosting items and you are looking at 36/38/36 for mental ability scores.

Unless your party has a level 20 max Int wizard, the Great Wyrm Red is smarter than your party wizard.

---
A Great Wyrm Red can also have 40 Crafted Contingent spells on its body. This means that said dragon does have 40 such contigencies.

40 HD also means that said dragon gets 34 feats, all of which can be Epic if it so desires (thanks to Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos). Permanent Emanation: Selective Antimagic Field means that it is always protected by an AMF that does nothing to the dragon when it wants to be. Permanent Emanation: Selective Temporal Repair means that no one else gets to use Time Stop or Celerity around the dragon. Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble means that the Dragon can't be screwed over by being forced onto a dead magic or time locked demiplane.

With a +5 Tome of Dex and a +6 item the dragon has 21 Dex and thus qualifies for Exceptional Deflection, which means once per round it gets to punch away any ranged attack.

It also qualifies for Tenacious Magic: Permanency and thus has every spell that can be made Permanent on its self made Permanent (and thus Dispel or Disjunction just knocks them down for 1d4 rounds).

This also means that its entire lair is riddled with things like Tenacious Permanent Selective Invisible Prismatic Walls. It is also covered in a Selective Forbiddance which means that only the dragon gets to teleport around its base.

Then you have the Improved Metamagic feat taken multiple times. Five times makes even Persistent Spell only a +1 metamagic.

And Improved Spell Capacity for extra spell slots of 9th+ level. And with bonus spell slots for high Charisma, the first 4 times you take this feat it gives you 2 spell slots each time.

There is also Ignore Material Components, which any caster who can take it should take it. And all of the sudden that Dragon isn't the dragon, its an Ice Assassin or Simulacrum.

The Fast Healing feat gives the dragon Fast Healing 3, which can be down right nasty.

Throw up the Permanent Emanation: Selective AMF along with a Persistent Lesser Ironguard and you get to laugh at anything except non metallic weapons and instant conjurations. Now throw in Ghostform and you are immune to pretty much everything but Orbs. Contingent Persistent Energy Immunity (one for each type of energy) can pretty much cover that.

---
If you actually play a Great Wyrm to their stats and potential then the dragon will shred the vast majority of parties in seconds. Every trick that the paranoid level 20 caster gets to pull, the Great Wyrm Red can generally pull off better.

this is beautiful, and i weep with ectasy imagining my players facing this creature. i can handle him in melee just fine, i was needing help on spells which is what you said. Also, im going great wyrm gold, so he's gonna be more cunning. What should a standard dragon have contigent fourty+ times, besides an ass load of energy immunity, and AC raisers ect? Also what will help him match action economy of a group? something thats reliable round to round, i know haste=quicken spell+full attack+movement, but how can i round by round get 2-3 spells plus attack? (i want him beating the BSF to death why'll showing hes a dam good spell caster also)

[Chambers]

Yeah, Selective Spell from Shining South. +1 spell level and you get to choose one creature to be totally unaffected by a spell with an Area.

In the case of an AMF, it does nothing to shut down your spell casting or items but it still works as normal against everyone else.

Nice. I can see table variation with the Feat + Antimagic Field. I'm guessing there's already been a few dozen threads arguing what it means to not be affected by the AMF.

[WhamBamSam]

@Tippy: Where are you getting 20 of the 34 feats from? Chaos Shuffling VoP feats is iffy for a CE Red Dragon, and the only evil way I know of only gets to 32 feats (14 regular, 10 Wyrm of War, 8 Elder Evil)

Also, how is Factotum a non-associated class for anything with genius level Int?





With Swordsage 1/Warblade 1 for your initiator levels you can pick up Counter Charge, Baffling Defense, Soaring Throw, Balista Throw, Fool's Strike, and Tornado Throw for your Swordsage Maneuvers (Ready Tornado Throw, Counter Charge, Baffling Defense, and Fool's Strike) and between your Warblade maneuvers and Martial Study/Stance get a hold of Moment of Alacrtiy, Quicksilver Motion, and Stance of Alacrity.

Have Aerial Alacrity and Haste effects up. Once all of Tippy's stuff has shut down the magic, use Quicksilver motion to move 310ft in a circle as a swift action, then initiate Tornado Throw as a full round action, moving 620ft more and making throws every 10 ft. The first trip check made 10ft into the Torndado Throw movement is at +160 and they only get higher from there, meaning the throws can send the PCs flying onto any death trap you might've had installed and dealing massive damage (the dragon will win the trip check by more than 100 each time even if the target is somehow Colossal sized with 4+ legs even with all the AMF stuff, so the target will take more than 20d6 per throw). If they somehow survive that, you have the counter maneuvers against whatever they try to use on you on top of all the other defenses.

[Emperor Tippy]

I wasn't thinking, but there are a couple of magical locations that give feats.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is a spell that restores you to life if you die, so long as it is cast in so many rounds of your death. That one works great as a contingency. Follow it up with a heal.

Selective disjunction is also nice, if you can word it right and get it shoehorned into the contingency. It will strip any spell used to pin the dragon down so it can be killed. It is selective so it doesn't mess with any of the spells cast by the dragon.

Contingent celarity also has some nice uses. Trigger it on "I want to take an action and don't have initiative." The dragon can get 10 or so rounds the first round of combat if he wants.

[Zancloufer]

There is a spell that restores you to life if you die, so long as it is cast in so many rounds of your death. That one works great as a contingency. Follow it up with a heal.

Revivify, level 5 Cleric/Favoured Soul spell. Get a (few) crafted contingency items of that if you want your Dragon to have a few lives. Seriously I can't see a Dragon without 1-2 of those. Heck, could make it trigger a number of rounds AFTER the Dragon's death.

Party: "Oh Dragon's Dead, let's loot his hoard"
*In the middle of the looting session Dragon comes back to life*
Party: "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU"

Ofc this only works if they don't try skinning him first =p

[Fax Celestis]

A Great Wyrm dragon is one that has lived more than twelve hundred years.

A Great Wyrm Red (perhaps the iconic dragon enemy) has a natural intelligence score of 26, Wisdom of 27, and Charisma of 26. Now add in the +4/+5 Inherent bonuses to every ability score (it's a dragon that has outlived most dynasties in human history) and the +6 stat boosting items and you are looking at 36/38/36 for mental ability scores.

Unless your party has a level 20 max Int wizard, the Great Wyrm Red is smarter than your party wizard.

---
A Great Wyrm Red can also have 40 Crafted Contingent spells on its body. This means that said dragon does have 40 such contigencies.

40 HD also means that said dragon gets 34 feats, all of which can be Epic if it so desires (thanks to Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos). Permanent Emanation: Selective Antimagic Field means that it is always protected by an AMF that does nothing to the dragon when it wants to be. Permanent Emanation: Selective Temporal Repair means that no one else gets to use Time Stop or Celerity around the dragon. Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble means that the Dragon can't be screwed over by being forced onto a dead magic or time locked demiplane.

With a +5 Tome of Dex and a +6 item the dragon has 21 Dex and thus qualifies for Exceptional Deflection, which means once per round it gets to punch away any ranged attack.

It also qualifies for Tenacious Magic: Permanency and thus has every spell that can be made Permanent on its self made Permanent (and thus Dispel or Disjunction just knocks them down for 1d4 rounds).

This also means that its entire lair is riddled with things like Tenacious Permanent Selective Invisible Prismatic Walls. It is also covered in a Selective Forbiddance which means that only the dragon gets to teleport around its base.

Then you have the Improved Metamagic feat taken multiple times. Five times makes even Persistent Spell only a +1 metamagic.

And Improved Spell Capacity for extra spell slots of 9th+ level. And with bonus spell slots for high Charisma, the first 4 times you take this feat it gives you 2 spell slots each time.

There is also Ignore Material Components, which any caster who can take it should take it. And all of the sudden that Dragon isn't the dragon, its an Ice Assassin or Simulacrum.

The Fast Healing feat gives the dragon Fast Healing 3, which can be down right nasty.

Throw up the Permanent Emanation: Selective AMF along with a Persistent Lesser Ironguard and you get to laugh at anything except non metallic weapons and instant conjurations. Now throw in Ghostform and you are immune to pretty much everything but Orbs. Contingent Persistent Energy Immunity (one for each type of energy) can pretty much cover that.

---
If you actually play a Great Wyrm to their stats and potential then the dragon will shred the vast majority of parties in seconds. Every trick that the paranoid level 20 caster gets to pull, the Great Wyrm Red can generally pull off better.

And what do you do when the party incantatrix or anima mage or archmage opens with a widened repeat disjunction?

Honest question, not trying to be a smartass.

[Emperor Tippy]

And what do you do when the party incantatrix or anima mage or archmage opens with a widened repeat disjunction?

Honest question, not trying to be a smartass.

First it has to knock out the AMF (1% chance per CL) and then it runs into the Craft Contingent Selective Resilient Sphere. Or Celerity from one place or another. Or Wings of Cover.

Then, even if it hits it will screw over magic items and strip off any regular buffs but thanks to Tenacious Spell all of your Permanent buffs will only be disabled for 1d4 rounds.

And if all else fails and you actually get hit then discharge your Persistent Surge of Fortune to auto protect your Power Stone of Time Regression and then just reverse the round and get out of the area.

Although personally I like to use Ice Assassin Animated Objects that have Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble and a Limited Magic demiplane where only Disjunction and possibly the various other dispel methods are prevented from functioning. Carry around your tiny creature and laugh as disjunction does nothing to you.

---
And if the Disjunction actually manages to land and deal significant damage, well you are still a Great Wyrm Red Dragon that is protected by an AMF, has fast healing, can punch away one Orb per round, and can cast Lesser Ironguard again the next turn to become, again, immune to all metal weapons.

There is also the Permanent Emanation: Selective Otiluke's Suppressing Field set to Conjuration. Force a caster level check against a DC of 11+CL to every conjuration that your enemies want to use against you. Since you have no reason to every drop that particular Permanent Emanation you can amp your CL quite high.

And if all else fails you drop a Wish and flee to a back up lair to rest and re-arm before crushing whomever attacked you.

[Ortesk]

Well as i've seen advice wise, the dragon will dysjunction the mage back and see who wins a battle of brawn, the dragon or a non buffed wizard. i go for dragon personally

[Fouredged Sword]

A contingent wings of cover will stop a disjunction.

The last 20 or so contingencies could be celarities. This plus immunity to stunning will allow you to take 20 turns back to back. If the party survives that, then on turn 19 the dragon planeshifts to his demiplane that has no physical material in it.

As it is a void, no material from it can be used to make a focus for a planeshift. You ignore material components, so the dragon doesn't care. Nobody pre epic can planeshift into it though. His treasure horde has a contingency to be ported after him to keep it safe.

[Phaederkiel]

from a realistic encounter design perspective:

I would obviously skip on the most horrifying stuff tippy suggested. No normal party stands a chance against something like that.

I love the idea of the revive contingency. In the first fight, the dragon gets killed "easily". Then, after first hand witnessing the players best tactics, it gets ready for second round.

I would thus restrict the contingencies to
a) one revive
b) a bunch of mean buffs which are keyed to getting revived
c) something to go down on celerity
d) an antimagic field of some kind, selective or not.

(even nonselective the field will make the party fight a melee-semideity with their bare hands - doable, but really dangerous)

I would skip the dark chaos shuffle. I would not want to encourage players to use such things.

I really love the dragon using maneuvers, though. The counters against charging and touch attacking seem hilarious, the throwing ones do too.
I think my personal favorite, greater insightful strike could be very funny, too. The dragon would probably have some mean skillchecks.

for some offense I woul say that the dragon preferes using his natural attacks and his breath weapon, I would thus take multiattack and improved multiattack as well as [rapid strike and imp rapid strike] x 2, once for claws and once for wings. Add in the spell blood wind and use your godly melee power from a distance.


And then there is some fun to be had with breath weapons:
quicken breath, maximize breath and heighten breath are each monstrously powerful with a big dragon (especcially a red, i think).

I think in RHOD is a dragon-like which uses a combo of swallow hole and cleave, which allows him to swallow two guys in one round. Wizard and cleric swallowed in the belly of an antimagic dragon? Sounds beatable but really mean.

[Ortesk]

from a realistic encounter design perspective:

I would obviously skip on the most horrifying stuff tippy suggested. No normal party stands a chance against something like that.

I love the idea of the revive contingency. In the first fight, the dragon gets killed "easily". Then, after first hand witnessing the players best tactics, it gets ready for second round.

I would thus restrict the contingencies to
a) one revive
b) a bunch of mean buffs which are keyed to getting revived
c) something to go down on celerity
d) an antimagic field of some kind, selective or not.

(even nonselective the field will make the party fight a melee-semideity with their bare hands - doable, but really dangerous)

I would skip the dark chaos shuffle. I would not want to encourage players to use such things.

I really love the dragon using maneuvers, though. The counters against charging and touch attacking seem hilarious, the throwing ones do too.
I think my personal favorite, greater insightful strike could be very funny, too. The dragon would probably have some mean skillchecks.

for some offense I woul say that the dragon preferes using his natural attacks and his breath weapon, I would thus take multiattack and improved multiattack as well as [rapid strike and imp rapid strike] x 2, once for claws and once for wings. Add in the spell blood wind and use your godly melee power from a distance.


And then there is some fun to be had with breath weapons:
quicken breath, maximize breath and heighten breath are each monstrously powerful with a big dragon (especcially a red, i think).

I think in RHOD is a dragon-like which uses a combo of swallow hole and cleave, which allows him to swallow two guys in one round. Wizard and cleric swallowed in the belly of an antimagic dragon? Sounds beatable but really mean.

As a dm i tell my players, be smart or die. I never give them so much they cant win, with basic tactics they can win any bout i give them (i have a LG allignment as a dm, LE as a player) I gave him an amulet of supremacy so all breaths are auto quickened, a ton of buff contingents, and for fun some celerity specific ones. He is a melee beast, by means and tricks i have him way beefier than silly MM dragon, He has an ac of 83 and a decent touch, ray deflection solves his issue and thicket of blades makes it easy to provoke AOP, he has used wish 5 times each score, also items/spels so forth for more. He has haste, celerity, Gems imbedded in skin (1 per HD as draconomican) which replicate BoB, with quickened breaths and 3 reducing feats he will get off 3 full rounds each round, 1-2 maxamized breaths, 1-2 spells and 1-2 full attacks, divided as he see's fit. I am confident my group can do it, since they will have ample chance to dig in history tomes for his past showings, and i have made fire his only breath (energy substitution force would be cruel and unusual)

[WebTiefling]

As a dm i tell my players, be smart or die. I never give them so much they cant win, with basic tactics they can win any bout i give them (i have a LG allignment as a dm, LE as a player) I gave him an amulet of supremacy so all breaths are auto quickened, a ton of buff contingents, and for fun some celerity specific ones. He is a melee beast, by means and tricks i have him way beefier than silly MM dragon, He has an ac of 83 and a decent touch, ray deflection solves his issue and thicket of blades makes it easy to provoke AOP, he has used wish 5 times each score, also items/spels so forth for more. He has haste, celerity, Gems imbedded in skin (1 per HD as draconomican) which replicate BoB, with quickened breaths and 3 reducing feats he will get off 3 full rounds each round, 1-2 maxamized breaths, 1-2 spells and 1-2 full attacks, divided as he see's fit. I am confident my group can do it, since they will have ample chance to dig in history tomes for his past showings, and i have made fire his only breath (energy substitution force would be cruel and unusual)

Please let us know how the throwdown goes. If you play that dragon even halfway intelligently, I can't think of a group that would have a chance against him unless they get a full-party surprise round on him.

I guess the other way is to hit him with a hellofalot of ranged attacks. But, unless you've got a party of straight wizards/sorcerers, they won't be able to take him out with pure ranged tools.

As soon as he gets rolling, you can essentially declare 1 party member dead per round.

[WebTiefling]

Let me clarify that.

I can't think of a party (of a level as has been assumed here) that would successfully take down the dragon. Not because they don't have the power/capabilities, but because I've never seen a group that operates well enough to use their abilities smartly enough.

Maybe if they get a full gaming session of planning and good intel, and go in with a solid battle plan.

Maybe.

[Ortesk]

Please let us know how the throwdown goes. If you play that dragon even halfway intelligently, I can't think of a group that would have a chance against him unless they get a full-party surprise round on him.

I guess the other way is to hit him with a hellofalot of ranged attacks. But, unless you've got a party of straight wizards/sorcerers, they won't be able to take him out with pure ranged tools.

As soon as he gets rolling, you can essentially declare 1 party member dead per round.

I will play him to his max power, he is actually two dragons eho's sou;s have become one, one dragon was breath/melee and other was spellcasting/melee, basic premise is long ago war almost whiped the race, a war by zealots who hated evil dragons and slowly became all dragons and wizard/sorceror. the leader of bahumats forces and leader of tiamets horde fused there soul and placed it inside a human wizard, greatest wizard since Boccob, and now will be coming back after 1000 years of waiting. I used the reds body and base abilitys to be kind to the players. i hope this puts fear in the group when they see a dragon from now on

[WebTiefling]

I will play him to his max power, he is actually two dragons eho's sou;s have become one, one dragon was breath/melee and other was spellcasting/melee, basic premise is long ago war almost whiped the race, a war by zealots who hated evil dragons and slowly became all dragons and wizard/sorceror. the leader of bahumats forces and leader of tiamets horde fused there soul and placed it inside a human wizard, greatest wizard since Boccob, and now will be coming back after 1000 years of waiting. I used the reds body and base abilitys to be kind to the players. i hope this puts fear in the group when they see a dragon from now on

"blah blah blah TPK is going to happen blah blah blah*

:smallbiggrin:

The concept is fun, but dang! that party is dead if they actually face that thing. With a background of greatest wizard/sorcerer, you probably should have a whole buttload of contingencies and selective fields on him.

A straight dragon might have a strong enough predilection toward combat that he doesn't enact that sort of magical backup. Someone who has a strong wizard/sorcerer background - the contingencies/selectives/etc are going to be the first thing on his mind.

[Phaederkiel]

As a dm i tell my players, be smart or die. I never give them so much they cant win, with basic tactics they can win any bout i give them (i have a LG allignment as a dm, LE as a player) I gave him an amulet of supremacy so all breaths are auto quickened, a ton of buff contingents, and for fun some celerity specific ones. He is a melee beast, by means and tricks i have him way beefier than silly MM dragon, He has an ac of 83 and a decent touch, ray deflection solves his issue and thicket of blades makes it easy to provoke AOP, he has used wish 5 times each score, also items/spels so forth for more. He has haste, celerity, Gems imbedded in skin (1 per HD as draconomican) which replicate BoB, with quickened breaths and 3 reducing feats he will get off 3 full rounds each round, 1-2 maxamized breaths, 1-2 spells and 1-2 full attacks, divided as he see's fit. I am confident my group can do it, since they will have ample chance to dig in history tomes for his past showings, and i have made fire his only breath (energy substitution force would be cruel and unusual)


by means and tricks?

wow, you must know all about dragons. Thank you for answering tippys questions.

[Gwendol]

I have my party going up against a Young Adult black dragon very soon. Any tips for feats and spells?
My plan was to use the sample dragon on p. 202 of Draconomicon, but if that is deemed too easy/hard? It's going to be my first DM fight using a dragon so I have really limited experience with how that may play out. I think they might fight to a draw, at least the first encounter.

The party is not high-powered: human monk/drunken master, human fighter/sorcerer, elf fighter/beguiler, elf druid/sorcerer, catfolk ranger, human favored soul. All around ECL 5-6.

[Vaz]

If push comes to shove, it has access to Epic Spellcasting 4-5 times a day.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would leave the young adult black dragon as it is shown on the SRD. It is CR 9 and you have a CR6-7 group of unoptimized adventurers. I would not expect too much from your party.

[Ranting Fool]

I have to say too often I fall into the "Dragons are just big dumb guys who claw at you" trap. My own fault.

@Trippy, when you play are you DM or Player and does everyone in your group play at such a power level and are you always a full caster? :smallbiggrin:
I would love to chuck in that Red Dragon you listed into one of my games someday but I'm sure it would just slaughter the whole party and make them not want to play ever again :smalltongue: That said taking a few of your suggestions would make another monster encounter into an Epic Battle of Doom.

[Fouredged Sword]

No, that isn't tippie's dragon he throws at his players. The one that he throws at his players is actualy a dragon who created a copy of it's mind using mindswitch sillyness, then put that copy into an army of shadesteel golems.

[Ranting Fool]

@ Ortesk. You don't even need to go about changing the stats of your dragon (Just played with a average amount of intelligence makes them quite a nasty fight) some of my best BBEG's that my players have loved to hate haven't been massively powerful but rather they were fleshed out and had a memorable personality/did something that really angered the players that they would want to hunt the BBEG down.

[Emperor Tippy]

@Trippy, when you play are you DM or Player and does everyone in your group play at such a power level and are you always a full caster? :smallbiggrin:

Generally, the world exists. It's power level goes everywhere from a regular old house cat all the way up to Epic Casting Great Wyrm Time Dragon Greater Deities.

The worlds power level is totally independent of the PC's power level, classes, optimization level, competence, or brains.

If the PC's want then they can go off and do less risky or dangerous things. They don't have to throw themselves against epic or near epic casters, if they do then it is their choice and the consequences are on them.

A Great Wyrm Red, before anything else, has an Intelligence score of 26 and the same Wisdom score. It also has natural spell casting superior to that of a regular Sorcerer (as it also gets to draw from the Cleric list). It is significantly smarter than the smartest humans who have ever lived in real life, has survived longer than most any single dynasty in human history, and has raw power comparable with most mythological gods.

If you want to kill such a foe then you better be similarly capable.

And no, I don't always play full casters. It really depends on my mood.


I would love to chuck in that Red Dragon you listed into one of my games someday but I'm sure it would just slaughter the whole party and make them not want to play ever again :smalltongue: That said taking a few of your suggestions would make another monster encounter into an Epic Battle of Doom.

Tell your players that if they want to fight dragons then they should step up their game.

A wyrmling red is born as smart as the average adult human, with a breath weapon powerful enough to turn the average human to ash in a single use, is physically as strong as an Olympic weight lifter, has scales only slightly weaker than full plate armor, and can more often than not hit your average human warrior in full plate. Oh yes, and when it does hit its bite does damage equal to a battle axe.

This is a red dragon a few minutes after it hatches.

A Red Dragon is born more deadly than most humans can ever hope to become.

[Ranting Fool]

Tell your players that if they want to fight dragons then they should step up their game.

A wyrmling red is born as smart as the average adult human, with a breath weapon powerful enough to turn the average human to ash in a single use, is physically as strong as an Olympic weight lifter, has scales only slightly weaker than full plate armor, and can more often than not hit your average human warrior in full plate. Oh yes, and when it does hit its bite does damage equal to a battle axe.

This is a red dragon a few minutes after it hatches.

A Red Dragon is born more deadly than most humans can ever hope to become.

Which is why I'm changing one of the possible encounters the players might go looking for into something a bit more nasty.... and scaly and fiery :smallbiggrin:

[Ortesk]

"blah blah blah TPK is going to happen blah blah blah*

:smallbiggrin:

The concept is fun, but dang! that party is dead if they actually face that thing. With a background of greatest wizard/sorcerer, you probably should have a whole buttload of contingencies and selective fields on him.

A straight dragon might have a strong enough predilection toward combat that he doesn't enact that sort of magical backup. Someone who has a strong wizard/sorcerer background - the contingencies/selectives/etc are going to be the first thing on his mind.

Well he has alot of permanent buffs up, 10 contingent buffs, 30 greater celeritys and a spell which acts as favor of the matyr, so he can do it without fear of stun woories. he also has epic spells which are only stat buffs, i wasnt to cruell

[Ortesk]

by means and tricks?

wow, you must know all about dragons. Thank you for answering tippys questions.

Because i dont know how to build a high octane caster doesnt mean im an idiot. Melee is my bread and butter, and so is template abuse and other tricks which wont work with people like tippy, ie that power level, but gets me by

[Phaederkiel]

Because i dont know how to build a high octane caster doesnt mean im an idiot.

no, but the way you answered to me and tiefling made you look condescending.
It somewhat looked like you only asked the questions to show us that you are able to easily slaughter your players.
Which is something every dm can easily accomplish, wether they let rocks fall or disguise the rocks as a dragon.

I tried to give my 2c for actual encounter design, as in "tough, yet beatable", since tippy showed us some ropes in the "you want your players dead"-department.

if you are so melee-proficient


Melee is my bread and butter, and so is template abuse

then please, for the sake of posteriority, explain your tricks in detail, as I did mine. It is much more interesting for other readers which are searching for ideas for dragon encounters if you can give your phantasms of omnipotence a face and a statblock, hmm?:smallwink:

[Ortesk]

no, but the way you answered to me and tiefling made you look condescending.
It somewhat looked like you only asked the questions to show us that you are able to easily slaughter your players.
Which is something every dm can easily accomplish, wether they let rocks fall or disguise the rocks as a dragon.

I tried to give my 2c for actual encounter design, as in "tough, yet beatable", since tippy showed us some ropes in the "you want your players dead"-department.

if you are so melee-proficient



then please, for the sake of posteriority, explain your tricks in detail, as I did mine. It is much more interesting for other readers which are searching for ideas for dragon encounters if you can give your phantasms of omnipotence a face and a statblock, hmm?:smallwink:

I didnt mean to come off that way, and sorry that i did so. My post was during my work shift and was rushed without proof reading it. My grat insight is mainly melee=feat progression, or things like TOB manuevers and such, thus by using flaws which a named creature can use, mixed with a dragon making use of monks belt and items which affect the same way (say i gave my guy a level dip in FoF) will make a very good ac, since he's using buffs and such. Any melee character issues are touch ac, action economy, and general utility. A dragon shores that up by sake of magic and magic items. Using wish spells for stats, rolling his stats since he is named and rolled under same rules i gave players, and choosing right feats and saving myself feats where i could, helped in it. I personally built him HD by HD, as i would any PC, and i did slow without giving him much slack. I went easy in the magic department because again, its my weakness and i dont like to be wrong on the table by mis using something, and im not the dm who says rule 0 alot

[Yogibear41]

Not sure if it was said before because I didn't read every post, but I would say it highly depends on the color of the dragon, because of varying intellects. A white dragon is going to be alot different than say a silver or gold. Considering how smart red, bronze, and especially silver and gold dragons are, I would say the best way to play them is to cheat. Now let me explain what I mean by cheat. Considering how more smart these dragons theoretically would be than you, I, and basically every other human to ever live they should be able to think of all kinds of things ahead of time that we could not. So suppose you come up with this amazing idea that would have been great if you had planned out for it a few games ago, well sure you just thought about it but that gold dragon wyrm he thought about it 200 years ago, and has already put that plan into motion.

Basically react to just about every spontaneous situation that the players produce like you had prepared a contingency plan for it, whether or not you actually had prepared a contingency plan for it. To be honest if one of the intelligent dragons makes it to great wyrm status he should be a few steps down from a god, like a 2 minute walk to the next floor to see your buddy few steps down.