[D&D 3.5]Are there Rules for a neutral Lich?

[Serarya]

Hello out there,

i hope you could help me with a paralyzeing question - are there any types of neutral Lichs? The MM describes there are only evil Lichs. The Fearun MM say that there are good lichs, too (see here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47119).

I think, even a neutral character may wish to achieve goals with the transformation into an undead Lich - to prtect someone beloved or an Order or something that underlines his true freedom.

Second i want to know is: are there any rules to change your appearance as a Lich - like a ritual while becoming a Lich or something? A rotten Lich maybe fits on a bad character, but I think it would fit neither for a good nor a neutral character. Any Ideas?

But i couldn't find any rules for that. Well... i hope someone could help me out?

Thanks alot :)

[Blackjackg]

The issues you're facing are mostly fluff issues, which means that a GM is basically okay to just forget about them. Want a lich that doesn't look rotten? Ignore the part of their description that says they look rotten, since it has no game effect. The MM material says that the process to become a lich is "unspeakably evil," but there's no reason you can't tone that down to not-so-evil-that-neutral-characters-can't-do-it-without-becoming-evil.

[Talothorn]

To the first part, I have always played that you could be an undead of any alignment, so long as you were free willed and not mindless. Mindless undead are neutral to the point of Alignment:--. They do not have an alignment any more than a chair does. Spawn are the alignment of their respective controller/creater. This is not RAW.

By RAW, well, undead are always evil, except when they are not. See: ghosts, and good liches, and emancipated spawn, and a few other exceptions which contradict the reasons undead have to be evil anyway. It is all based on the fact that negative energy makes things evil, except the negative energy plane and negative energons, which are the purest concentratuons of negative energy, so they are neutral, or good clerics casting "inflict" spells, which i guess are good.

And the death watch spell, which detects positive energy, is evil.


As for the second part:
Gentle repose or preserve corpse spells
Magic jar
Shapechange
Illusions
Polymorph
Disguise checks
Make up
A mask
Replacing your face with a beautiful clockwork angel face

Btw, only a dumb lich (read: sorcerer) would walk around town looking rotten. A smart lich would make sure he was beautiful and politically connected. Why waste all that charisma making children tremble when you can make nations tremble. Just avoid places with term limits.

[Zanos]

Baelnorn's can be of any good or neutral alignment, if you'd like some RAW to base it on.

By the Lich entry, the ritual to become a Lich is inherently evil since you must perform some unspecified act of "unspeakable" evil.

Logically, a liches rotten appearance is a result from just allowing their body to rot. Many liches are completely skeletal, and others have the appearance of rotten corpses. I think in the FR specifically though, Szass Tamn took measures to preserve his appearance. Casting Gentle Repose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) on yourself or getting a custom itemcould probably keep you looking a bit less like a zombie, although I'd expect you'd be a bit pale.

[Clistenes]

In addition to Forgotten Realm's baelnorns, there are other kinds of non-evil undead, like Necropolitans (Libris Mortis), Crypt Things (Fiend Folio) and Mumias (Ghostwalk campaign setting).

Crypt Wardens (Book of Exalted Deeds, always Good) are Deathless, not Undead, but there is barely any difference between both creature types (they react differently to positive and negative energy and to turning and rebuking).

There are several other kinds of Good aligned Deathless in the Eberron Campaign Setting book.

To make the character look alive you can use a Phylactery of Polymorphing (Polymorph on oneself 1/day, the spell has a duration of 24 hours), a Hat of Disguise, a Thespian Mask, a Ring of Chameleon Power or Fleshshifter Armour. If the DM doesn't allow the undead to use Disguise Self or Alter Self to pass as Human, use the items to look like a Vampire (looks lika a human, but is Undead).

[Ravens_cry]

To the first part, I have always played that you could be an undead of any alignment, so long as you were free willed and not mindless. Mindless undead are neutral to the point of Alignment:--. They do not have an alignment any more than a chair does. Spawn are the alignment of their respective controller/creater. This is not RAW.

I like to make mindless undead the alignment of their controller. No controller, alignment is neutral. Evil controller, alignment is evil. Good controller, alignment good, neutral controller. . . well, you get the picture.
Alignment hiding spells work with this formula.
As for free willed undead, good or even neutral exceptions would be very rare for undead that basically require evil acts to continue their existence, for example vampires and ghouls, but otherwise, yes. Any true mind has a certain degree of flexibility to turn to good or evil.

[ArcturusV]

There's the "Shirt of Gentle Repose", which does, well, exactly what it says on the tin. It's a shirt, that gives you Gentle Repose as a constant effect so you'd never rot or anything.

As for non-evil? Well, there's the Dry Lich. Seems pretty neutral to me. The class that gives you that Template only has the requirement of "non-good". The fluff around the class itself is less about Evil and more about Desertification. Which is Natural, which by DnD standards is more True Neutral than anything.

[JusticeZero]

I would generally say that even if a Lich decided to start doing noble and good things, they would still have an aura of Evil.
I generally define undeath as removing the rewarding feeling of doing good things - in effect, inflicting the undead with both acute psychopathy and apathetic depression at once. As a result, it's really not any surprise if they happen to be known for doing a bunch of evil things. However, there isn't anything requiring it - they're free to define their life by how much they can give to charity, it's just that it is going to be an intellectual exercise alone, it won't make them feel good about themself, and it is easy to accidentally let the ends define the means.
"I will dominate the town to donate more to the orphanage. That sounds like a good thing to do."

[Ravens_cry]

Charming would work better anyway, unless your command was 'Act normal until I say with the exception you will donate much of your disposable income to the orphanage.'

[hamishspence]

I would generally say that even if a Lich decided to start doing noble and good things, they would still have an aura of Evil.

The current rules, as written, saddle all Undead (regardless of alignment, it appears) with a detectable aura of evil anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

The current rules, as written, saddle all Undead (regardless of alignment, it appears) with a detectable aura of evil anyway.
Even ghosts?

[hamishspence]

Yup: the table says "Undead" not "Evil undead"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

In the same way, a Neutral cleric of an Evil deity will ping as Evil.

[Ravens_cry]

Yup: the table says "Undead" not "Evil undead"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

In the same way, a Neutral cleric of an Evil deity will ping as Evil.
Fair point. Definitely taking that rule out for any setting where I use a "Negative energy is an alternate élan vital" and "Mindless undead are tools to be used" paradigm.

[JusticeZero]

Fair point. Definitely taking that rule out for any setting where I use a "Negative energy is an alternate élan vital" and "Mindless undead are tools to be used" paradigm.
I don't see why it's an issue. "I have a medical condition that causes Detect Alignment effects to think i'm Evil" is a nonissue.

[Zanos]

I would generally say that even if a Lich decided to start doing noble and good things, they would still have an aura of Evil.
I generally define undeath as removing the rewarding feeling of doing good things - in effect, inflicting the undead with both acute psychopathy and apathetic depression at once. As a result, it's really not any surprise if they happen to be known for doing a bunch of evil things. However, there isn't anything requiring it - they're free to define their life by how much they can give to charity, it's just that it is going to be an intellectual exercise alone, it won't make them feel good about themself, and it is easy to accidentally let the ends define the means.
"I will dominate the town to donate more to the orphanage. That sounds like a good thing to do."
I always preferred to think that the general psychopathy most liches possess is a result of their massively extend lives. At the least, insane or especially cruel liches of longer lived races seem to be less common than crazy or super evil human liches.

It takes a certain type of person to throw away their mortality like that to begin with, I suppose.

[Coidzor]

I'd just like to second necropolitan.


There's the "Shirt of Gentle Repose", which does, well, exactly what it says on the tin. It's a shirt, that gives you Gentle Repose as a constant effect so you'd never rot or anything.

Alternatively, on a cleric or wizard, it's not really all that much for them to cast the spell (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm)2x a week or 1 a week or even bimonthly if they start at a level higher than 1. Less often if they have extend spell or a rod of extend, which they probably do.


I always preferred to think that the general psychopathy most liches possess is a result of their massively extend lives. At the least, insane or especially cruel liches of longer lived races seem to be less common than crazy or super evil human liches.

It takes a certain type of person to throw away their mortality like that to begin with, I suppose.

Or humans are the ones who are bad/paranoid enough dudes to live long enough to become liches. :smallamused:

[Talothorn]

Fair point. Definitely taking that rule out for any setting where I use a "Negative energy is an alternate élan vital" and "Mindless undead are tools to be used" paradigm.

Check out the "Tome of Necromancy" section on "playing with fire"

Tome of Necromancy (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1059011)

[SassyQuatch]

Rule? Sure, Rule 0 applies.

You ask the DM "Can I have lich that is neutral?" If the answer is Yes then there is a perfectly valid rule. No need to try and jump through hoops unless you already got a No answer, and if you did then finding a rules-legal method may not be enough to convince the DM anyways.

Communication. It solves many problems.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't see why it's an issue. "I have a medical condition that causes Detect Alignment effects to think i'm Evil" is a nonissue.
That pings my silly meter a little too hard. It probably isn't silly to you, but it just, eh, doesn't feel how I want it.

Check out the "Tome of Necromancy" section on "playing with fire"

Tome of Necromancy (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1059011)
Oh, I most assuredly have read that, though, truth be told, I had formed most of my ideas already by the time I did.

[JusticeZero]

I always preferred to think that the general psychopathy most liches possess is a result of their massively extend lives..
Maybe, but I consider it to also be a measurable organic condition which is tied to the fact that you are now powering your body from the negative material plane rather than the positive. Before, you could have given alms to the poor and smiled from the joy of it as your evil plans ticked along. Now, you just don't see the point; it is joyless and abstract and doesn't really make any sense now.

[JusticeZero]

That pings my silly metre a little too hard..
It is also a way of telling people that their "Detect Alignment" spells are actually a bit fallible. Your Paladin now knows that not everyone who detects as Evil is actually Evil, and that conversely, just because this other guy glows Good doesn't mean you should trust him. I was in a memorable BBEG fight once against a hideous torturing monster who used so much healing effects that his favorite weapon was a Holy Avenger. Go ahead and throw your Holy Word. The guy pings as Good like crazy. He had a Neutral god, and we're pretty sure that said god sorted out where to send the guy eventually, but in the meanwhile, mortal alignment tests were thrown off by the taint of holiness.

[Pokonic]

In generally, I would say that all undead that are not free willed are, by default, probably created by something on the shallow end of the allingment pool, and that free-will undead can be whatever allignment they choose. The issue is, well, if your going to make a paste made of elven hearts and child tears and drink it over the corpse of your loved one under a red full moon while being watched by a demonic servant of your choice evil entity, your probably already evil enough to where turning into a living corpse that gives you new options to eat babies is a valid life path.

[Vertharrad]

Dread Necromancer and Walker in the Waste both have alignment requirements of non-good.

[AMFV]

In generally, I would say that all undead that are not free willed are, by default, probably created by something on the shallow end of the allingment pool, and that free-will undead can be whatever allignment they choose. The issue is, well, if your going to make a paste made of elven hearts and child tears and drink it over the corpse of your loved one under a red full moon while being watched by a demonic servant of your choice evil entity, your probably already evil enough to where turning into a living corpse that gives you new options to eat babies is a valid life path.

Actually I’ve wanted to make a good necromancer for a long time. With a wizard it’s certainly possible. He calls creating mindless undead “recycling” I mean, it’s essentially no different than finding a suit of armor laying on the ground and putting it to use, just quite a bit creepier.

I was also going to have him be annoyingly chipper, since emo undead are so played out. And I mean as long I didn't kill the elves or cause the children to cry why let those things go to waste, that's pretty terrible to do. Children suffered to produce those tears, and elves died for the hearts. Isn't it more evil to just toss those things away rather than using them to fight evil?

[Serarya]

Well I think now it's getting pretty too abstract. The thought standing behind my idea of an neutral lich is actually that my charakter want to expire his lifetime to follow his freedom or his own personal qest. I dont know what type this quest will be - any things to which the Charaklter feels just committed
.
The only thing I really wanted to know is whether there are some rules or not. Of course I can talk with my DM, but I would prefer an tested rule in my hand.

Thanks alot for all your responses, these have been very helpful to me :).

Next i want to know if you know any othe ways for a wizzard to expire his lifetime like becoming a lich would?

[JusticeZero]

Become a Vampire? an Elan? Mind swapping mischief? A demiplane with the appropriate time qualities?

[Zanos]

Become a Vampire? an Elan? Mind swapping mischief? A demiplane with the appropriate time qualities?

Vampire's become evil, and Elan's aren't really the same person.


There is an old thread on BG containing many ways to become immortal here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0), however. Necropolitians specifically retain their alignment, and could have much of the same flavor as a lich, although you'd lose the phylactery.

[Fouredged Sword]

Mindswitch into a monkey before turning your body into an elan. Then when you switch back, all you did was wipe the memories of a monkey, no big harm.

[Socratov]

while not a lich, one of my characters was a necropolitan changeling archivist. technically I was playing technicallyLE, but more focusing on the lawful part (backstory involving being alawyer) and used the alter self SLA to pass for human. the only real evil act in that campaign was using the contagion spell to make sure an encampment of soldiers guarding the macguffin woudl die out nice and easy.

I don't know if it is raw, but the dm at the dime agreed with me that even though undead the alter self ability from changeling would work just fine.

On top of that, oine line of thinking would be academic interest. The caster in question might have ginven his life (and un-life) to study the arcane arts and watned to make sure nothing hampered him like some stupid law of nature saying mortals must die after some time...

[Serarya]

Well after i have read the "ways of becomeing immortal" i can see that the path to immortal isnt clear at all.
I think that i have to find my own way... lets see how i can do that :)

[Andezzar]

Yes becoming a lich requires the aspirant to perform an act of "unspeakable evil", the template makes the character evil. This however does not mean that the character needs to a) only perform evil deeds b) remain evil for all eternity. Barring a few exceptions (Lycanthropy, helmet of opposite alignment) actions determine alignment not the other way around. There is no hard rule if and how lichdom changes a character's outlook. For whatever reason any lich could start performing good deeds and thus become neutral and eventually even good.

This however changes nothing about him pinging as evil on Detect Evil. Baelnorns get especially interesting. Let's take one of those who is a chaotic good cleric of Corellon Larethian. Such a creature would have a strong aura of Evil (undead), and a strong aura of both Chaos and Good (cleric of a CG deity). And maybe even a moderate aura of both chaos and good for being a character between levels 11 and 25.

And then there is Nijel Turnbottom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cc/20020401a). It was an April's Fools joke, but it is official.

[Socratov]

that is freaking hilarious!