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Tough_Tonka
2007-01-01, 09:12 PM
A player of mine really wants to play a plane touched namely a tiefling. But she really hates the level adjustment and wants to know if she can downplay the tiefling into a LA +0 race.

What kind of adjustments do you think could make a tiefling a LA +0.

Just take away the darkness spell-like ability, and energy resistance?

Should I take away anything else?

Jades
2007-01-01, 09:27 PM
+1 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha
Lowlight Vision 60 feet
+2 on Bluff and Hide

Draco Ignifer
2007-01-01, 09:28 PM
Cut either the intelligence or the dexterity bonus. LA +0 races shouldn't have nets to stats. If you follow the WotC school of thought, which states that Charisma doesn't balance out any main stat, then cut dexterity and make 'em connivers. I'd let 'em keep darkness, though... a once-per-day spell-like ability isn't that powerful.

Caewil
2007-01-01, 09:30 PM
She can LA buyout at level 3. It's not that much of a big deal.

Necomancer
2007-01-01, 10:34 PM
jades has a decent idea but generaly all races avoid a odd number bonus to stats. I'd make it +2 int myself and take out the dex.

Zincorium
2007-01-02, 12:30 AM
+1 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha
Lowlight Vision 60 feet
+2 on Bluff and Hide

Agreed with Necomancer. There are no odd stat racial modifiers to any race in D&D, even monstrous races are set up to be even. Why? because a +1 doesn't make a significant difference, either for the individual or a population. Tieflings with an 11 average intelligence aren't any brighter than the average human. Best to just give the intelligence bonus and remove the dex (because dex is 'worth' more than cha according to WotC).

Cybren
2007-01-02, 12:32 AM
Agreed with Necomancer. There are no odd stat racial modifiers to any race in D&D, even monstrous races are set up to be even. Why? because a +1 doesn't make a significant difference, either for the individual or a population. Tieflings with an 11 average intelligence aren't any brighter than the average human. Best to just give the intelligence bonus and remove the dex (because dex is 'worth' more than cha according to WotC).
Well in 3.5 D&D.

Pegasos989
2007-01-02, 01:19 AM
No outsider race should have LA of +0, unless you ban all spells similar to alter self, etc... Also remember that as an outsider, he gets profiency with all martial weapons...

I would say that let him play a human and roleplay it as planetouched.

cupkeyk
2007-01-02, 01:45 AM
The outsider type gives him immunities to all sorts of stuff that low level things can't get past, like charm person, reduce person and hold person, basically anything that normally target humanoids. I say give her darkvision and the outsider type OR the ability adjustments +2 Dex, -2 Cha and the humanoid type.

Hehehe, alterself gives him vastly better options than a humanoid.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-02, 01:52 AM
I thought the WotC website actually had a +0 LA version of Aasimars... do they also have Tieflings?

Pegasos989
2007-01-02, 01:55 AM
The outsider type gives him immunities to all sorts of stuff that low level things can't get past, like charm person, reduce person and hold person, basically anything that normally target humanoids. I say give her darkvision and the outsider type OR the ability adjustments +2 Dex, -2 Cha and the humanoid type.

Hehehe, alterself gives him vastly better options than a humanoid.

Yeah, it doesn't need trying to abuse to get that but if you do try to abuse and DM doesn't say no...
*cough*Dwarven ancestral..., +18 natural armor*cough*


But I think that cupkeyk has a nice idea.

Darkvision + outsider
or
+2 dex, -2 cha, humanoid. Though I think this one need something more, possibly extra feat (so it is a human with ability adjustments instead of skillpoints. This might go slightly over the top, though.)

Grim Greyscale
2007-01-02, 01:58 AM
I thought the WotC website actually had a +0 LA version of Aasimars... do they also have Tieflings?

A-yup.

Tiefling Base Racial Features
All of the following are base racial abilities for the tiefling.

Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

Outsider Type: Tieflings are native outsiders, so they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, a tiefling would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids.

Size: Tieflings are Medium size.

Speed: Tiefling base land speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision (Ex): A tiefling has darkvision to a 60-foot range.

Lesser Darkness (Sp): Once per day, the tiefling may use an effect similar to darkness (caster level equals tiefling's character level), except that the radius is 5 feet. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.

Skill Bonuses: A tiefling has a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.

Resistances (Ex): A tiefling starts play with resistance 2 to cold, electricity, and fire.

Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.

Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass tiefling's rogue class does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies.


From here: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

Pegasos989
2007-01-02, 01:59 AM
I thought the WotC website actually had a +0 LA version of Aasimars... do they also have Tieflings?

I have seen some lesser aasimar like that somewhere and those should get la +1, atleast compared to poor hobgoblins...


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a has savage progressions of the planetouched.

EDIT: Grim limecat ninjaed

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-01-02, 02:33 AM
No outsider race should have LA of +0, unless you ban all spells similar to alter self, etc... Also remember that as an outsider, he gets profiency with all martial weapons...

I would say that let him play a human and roleplay it as planetouched.
Aasimar and Tieflings aswell as any other outsider without actual outsider HD do not automatically gain simple and martial weapon proficiency. They gain proficiency according to thier classes alone.

Pegasos989
2007-01-02, 03:58 AM
Aasimar and Tieflings aswell as any other outsider without actual outsider HD do not automatically gain simple and martial weapon proficiency. They gain proficiency according to thier classes alone.

Can you give me a rules quote about that? All I know s that they have outsider type and outsider type in SRD describes "Proficient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficienc y) with all simple and martial weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons) and any weapons mentioned in its entry."

Is somewhere a general entry telling that you do not gain benefit of your type unless you have HD of it? O.o

lidmith
2007-01-02, 05:28 AM
I lent out my monster manual, so I can't check, but aren't Tieflings somewhat screwed compared to Asimars?

I mean, just on stats alone, Tieflings have a penalty to cha, and 2 bonus stats, but Asimars have just the 2 bonus stats, right?

If I'm running, no more penalty stat: game mechanics shouldn't be racist. That is to say, just because most members of a race are evil, doesn't mean they should have worse stats. And if they do, lower the lvl adjustment.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 05:32 AM
Lesser Planetouched (includes tieflings, aasimar, and genasi) are in the back of Player's Guide to Faerūn. The only change is that their type is Humanoid instead of Outsider.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-02, 07:46 AM
I lent out my monster manual, so I can't check, but aren't Tieflings somewhat screwed compared to Asimars?

I mean, just on stats alone, Tieflings have a penalty to cha, and 2 bonus stats, but Asimars have just the 2 bonus stats, right?

If I'm running, no more penalty stat: game mechanics shouldn't be racist. That is to say, just because most members of a race are evil, doesn't mean they should have worse stats. And if they do, lower the lvl adjustment.

Yes, Aasimar have better stats modifiers in one sense but there's more to it. Dexterity and Intelligence have uses for every character. Dexterity ups armour class and a saving throw while intelligence gives you skillpoints. Everybody needs armour class and benifits from skill points. Comparitively wisdom only affects saving throw while charisma has no real use (it helps skills but so do all the others). If your an Aasimar cleric, Sorcerer, Bard or Paladin you have a significant bonus but otherwise Tieflings are so much better. The Aasimar is very good and does excel in his favoured class but the Tiefling excels in all classes except those the Paladin needs to take to be worth it..

Also the Aasimar's light ability is poor compared to Darkness. One is an offensive ability while the other is a conveniance ability.

Gorbad the Limb Rippa
2007-01-02, 08:41 AM
They have got "lesser" races in players guid to faerun,which gives you a bunch of no LA races
eg:no La drow,duregar,svirvfneblin,and plane touched

stainboy
2007-01-02, 09:49 AM
I love Planescape, and I hate level adjustments, so I had to come up with rules for this. This may not be what you're looking for - I house-ruled a few changes beyond what was necessary just to bring their LA down. But anyway, here's how I do tieflings:

Race: Tieflings are humanoids. However, they are affected as evil outsiders by any effect which specifically affects evil outsiders, unless that effect would transport the target to his native plane or plane of origin.

Ability Scores: No modifiers. (The Int bonus is the only racial ability tieflings have that absolutely requires a LA, so it has to go. The Strength penalty makes no sense - there are plenty of strong fiends out there. The Charisma penalty is even worse - why does demonic heritage make someone less qualified to be a sorcerer or a warlock?)

Resistances: Fire/Cold Resistance 5. +2 to saves vs poison.

Darkvision: 60'.

Fiendish Heritage: Tieflings receive one bonus feat at character creation, which can be spent on any of the following:

-A +1 natural armor bonus
-Natural claw weapons, dealing 1d4 damage each (2 claws)
-Electrical or acid resistance 5
-A prehensile tail, which grants +2 to Sleight of Hand checks and allows the character to hold and manipulate small objects even when both hands are occupied. (Uses depend on player creativity. Basically just including this because Annah from Torment had it.)
-The ability to cast one of the following spells once per day: Darkness, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Burning Hands, Disguise Self, Chill Touch, Spider Climb, Shatter. CL half character level, save DC 12 + Charisma modifier. (Other spells from other sourcebooks available as the DM sees fit.)
-Any of the following feats: Agile, Deceitful, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Stealthy.
-Anything else the DM deems appropriate.

(Back when I played 2e Planescape we used some sourcebook that let tieflings choose a power from a list rather than just giving them all Darkness. I like that, so I did something similar.

Favored Class: Warlock. (If you're not using the warlock class, go with rogue or sorcerer. I don't use the favored class rule so I never put much thought into this.)

Level Adjustment: +0

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-02, 10:13 AM
The Strength penalty makes no sense - there are plenty of strong fiends out there.

That would be because they don't have one.

Choice of abilities is a good idea, Fey'ri get it and they always seemed like a much more thought out kind of planetouched. I might personally decide to randomise it rather than let players choose though. Your ones look quite balanced.

In my personaly campaign setting a Tiefling is just a human who chooses the Wild Talent feat as their first level bonus feat, but that only works if demons are the source of all psionics in your campaign. The idea of a Tiefling feat isn't so bad since the abyssal heritige feats in Hordes of the Abyss does a similar thing.

Necomancer
2007-01-02, 11:37 PM
A-yup.

Tiefling Base Racial Features
All of the following are base racial abilities for the tiefling.

Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

Outsider Type: Tieflings are native outsiders, so they are vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the outsider type but immune to effects that target other types. For example, a tiefling would be subject to the extra damage from an outsider bane sword but immune to hold person, since that spell affects only humanoids.

Size: Tieflings are Medium size.

Speed: Tiefling base land speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision (Ex): A tiefling has darkvision to a 60-foot range.

Lesser Darkness (Sp): Once per day, the tiefling may use an effect similar to darkness (caster level equals tiefling's character level), except that the radius is 5 feet. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.

Skill Bonuses: A tiefling has a +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide checks.

Resistances (Ex): A tiefling starts play with resistance 2 to cold, electricity, and fire.

Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.

Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass tiefling's rogue class does not count when determining whether an experience point penalty applies.


From here: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

...Thats...not a LA+0. Too powerful for a LA+0. The type alone is worth a LA, then the resistances (2 in one energy type I can see, but three?).

I'd say use this except get rid of the resistance and outsider type. Change it to humanoid. They won't be a outsider mechanicly anymore but you can still say they are one in game.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-03, 12:29 AM
Point 1: They have to be outsiders, not only because it isn't too powerful for an LA +0 (See Neraphs and Spikers from Planar Handbook) but because that's a vital part of their flavor. This is the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with the Fiendish Heritage Feat.

Point 2: Dex and Charisma don't balance. Just check the DMG; Dex or Str balance for two Mentals or 1 other Physical; Con balances for 1 other stat; and 1 Mental balances for 1 Physical or 1 other Mental.

Point 3: Darkness as a SLA is a holdout from 3E when it was a much better spell. Now, the fact that it is 2nd level makes it too much for a LA 0 race, but it sucks too much for LA 1.

Point 4: The Resistances are currently the core benefit of the class, changing to LA 0, they're the first thing that needs to be nerfed.

That in mind, Race Makeover:
Tiefling
Outsider (Native)

+2 Int, -2 Wis: Tieflings are cunning and devious like their Fiendish forebears, but tend to lack empathy or deeper understanding.

Darkvision 60 ft.

Resistances: Fire 2, Cold 2, Electricity 2: Tiefling's share some of their ancestor's natural resistance to energy.

Tieflings get a +2 Racial bonus on saves against Poison.

+2 to Bluff and Hide Checks: Tieflings make up for their foreign appearance with deviousness.

-2 to Diplomacy Checks: Tieflings are often skilled speakers, but their reputation for manipulativeness makes them distrusted everywhere.

Fiendish Power: At character creation, choose 3 0-Level Enchantment, Illusion, or Necromancy spells, none of which can have the "Good" descriptor. You gain these as Spell Like Abilities, each usable once per day.

Fiendish Traits: At character creation, roll two d8, your character has physical traits matching your results.

1-Horns
2-Whiff of Brimstone
3-Hooves
4-Red Eyes
5-Fanged Teeth
6-Vestigal Spines
7-Tail
8-Roll two additional d8; ignoring duplicate results or additional results of 8
The main innovation is the addition of custom spell-like abilities; which I chose because they can never become too powerful at 0 level, but allow a flavor of Fiendish magic and give the player multiple SLAs to work with, as opposed to a one-trick darkness.

The randomized traits may seem like a taboo because they take character customization out of the PCs hands, but part of being a fiend is that you are stuck with what you look like, you don't get to choose it.

Ambrogino
2007-01-03, 06:19 AM
Point 1: They have to be outsiders, not only because it isn't too powerful for an LA +0 (See Neraphs and Spikers from Planar Handbook) but because that's a vital part of their flavor. This is the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with the Fiendish Heritage Feat.


No, the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with Fiendish Heritage is that a Tielfling is a direct descendant of a Fiend, and a Human with Fiendish Heritage may be many generations removed from the Fiend in their ancestry. Their flavour is entirely detatched from the mechanical effects of Humanoid vs Outsider.

Thomas
2007-01-03, 07:04 AM
No, the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with Fiendish Heritage is that a Tielfling is a direct descendant of a Fiend, and a Human with Fiendish Heritage may be many generations removed from the Fiend in their ancestry. Their flavour is entirely detatched from the mechanical effects of Humanoid vs Outsider.

Debatable.

According to Races of Faerūn (which obviously is only "the rules" for FR, but is still a WotC-printed reference that can be elaborated on), planetouched (aasimar, genasi, tieflings) can be born in a family that has an appropriate ancestor (a half-whatever) way, way back in the past. You have 10 generations of apparently perfectly normal humans, and suddenly a mother gives birth to a child with horns, because over two centuries ago someone was seduced by an incubus. That's bound to cause some comment and question...

So a human with Fiendish Heritage is just a "weaker manifestation" of the exact same thing.

Half-fiends, half-celestials, and half-dragons could easily be played as the same, just a "stronger manifestation" of a similar bloodline entering into the family generations ago. It's just names for a game mechanic, after all.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-03, 05:41 PM
No, the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with Fiendish Heritage is that a Tielfling is a direct descendant of a Fiend, and a Human with Fiendish Heritage may be many generations removed from the Fiend in their ancestry. Their flavour is entirely detatched from the mechanical effects of Humanoid vs Outsider.
The definition of a Tiefling is a fiendish Planetouched; and planetouched are native outsiders. Perhaps it's imaginable to have a different flavor for them; but outsider is not strong enough to justify nerfing the traditional flavor.

Scorpina
2007-01-03, 05:45 PM
Basically all you really need to do is change them from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched), meaning that they're susceptable to effects aimed at both humanoids and outsiders. Less powerful than a dwarf, I'd reckon.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-03, 09:24 PM
Basically all you really need to do is change them from Outsider (Native) to Humanoid (Planetouched), meaning that they're susceptable to effects aimed at both humanoids and outsiders. Less powerful than a dwarf, I'd reckon.

Why do people consider Outsiders so powerful?
They gain immunity to a small number of effects (Hold, Charm, and Dominate Person) and vulnerability to others (anything effecting outsiders)

They also lose the ability to be resurrected, which is a very serious.

They gain proficiency with simple and martial weapons which is not particularly powerful;
Consider: Classes which rely heavily on combat either are already granted it (Bar, Ftr, Rgr, Pal, etc.) or don't need it because of special abilities (Monk). Classes such as Sor, Wiz, and the like make little use of weapon proficiencies, as they are too weak for combat.
This leaves, Clr, Drd, Brd, and Rog; they already have smatterings of martial proficiencies, but yes, they do gain a benefit from having some proficiencies in slightly better weapons than what they already have (possibly, as Bards and Rogues tend to prefer Finesse weapons like Rapiers that they're already proficient with).

Yes, outsider is a benefit, but a small one, and one that definitely does not require LA. So yes, you can make Humanoid (Planetouched), but you don't need to.

Thomas
2007-01-03, 09:26 PM
Why do people consider Outsiders so powerful?
They gain immunity to a small number of effects (Hold, Charm, and Dominate Person) and vulnerability to others (anything effecting outsiders)

They also lose the ability to be resurrected, which is a very serious.

Native outsider. They can be resurrected.

The type is a big advantage with no real disadvantages.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-01-03, 09:45 PM
Can you give me a rules quote about that? All I know s that they have outsider type and outsider type in SRD describes "Proficient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficienc y) with all simple and martial weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons) and any weapons mentioned in its entry."

Is somewhere a general entry telling that you do not gain benefit of your type unless you have HD of it? O.o
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm#tiefling



Tieflings As Characters

Tiefling characters possess the following racial traits.
+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A tiefling’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision) out to 60 feet.
Racial Skills: Tieflings have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) and Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) checks.
Racial Feats: A tiefling gains feats according to its class levels.
Special Attacks (see above): Darkness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/darkness.htm).
Special Qualities (see above): Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy) to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.
Automatic Languages: Common, Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm).
Level adjustment +1.Nowhere does it state they gain proficiency.


Ogres As Characters

Ogre characters possess the following racial traits.
+10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll), -4 penalty on Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grappleChecks), lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision) out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: An ogre begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: An ogre’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm), Listen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm), and Spot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm).
Racial Feats: An ogre’s giant levels give it two feats.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ogre is automatically proficient (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficienc y) with simple weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons), martial weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons), light and medium armor, and shields.
+5 natural armor bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#naturalArmorBonus).
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm).
Level adjustment +2.But here, as an example of a race with weapon and armor proficiencies stated in it's 'as characters' entry. Every race I've seen with automatic proficiencies because of type is stated in its 'as character' entry. Say they don't have one, perhaps they'd get that proficiency. Tieflings however do not.

(Ogre's as characters and Tieflings as characters taken from the SRD)

Person_Man
2007-01-03, 10:11 PM
I think the WotC online stats for a +0 LA Tiefling are balanced.

There are a dozen races that offer +2 Dex. The penalty to Cha, near universal dumpstat that it is, is better then a penalty to Str or Con. Darkness (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html#darkness) once per day is mildly useful at low levels. Though once you hit high levels, its doubtful a PC would take the time to use it when they have so many other better options at their disposal. The Skill bonuses and energy resisitance are also pretty minor.

Outsider type is uber if your DM randomly picks encounters and spells out of a hat and throws them at you. But they don't. So once in a while the DM will throw Dominate Person at you to feel good about being immune to it. And once it a while they will have an enemy with a Bane weapon or ant-outsider spell come at you to compensate for it. It's not something that is univerally useful, like a bonus feat or bonus Skill points.

Plus they're medium size, which makes them less useful Rogues (their favored class) then Whisper Gnomes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3), and maybe even Halflings, depending on your build.

icedrake
2007-01-03, 11:17 PM
I think the wizard tieflings are fine. I mean seriously, does 2 energy resistance really make or break the bank? If it were 5 to three you migth be able to make an argument, but by the time they get to level 5, its not going to save them from a fire ball doing 20 AOE damage. It does let them survive in normally hazardos enveroments without the need for endure elements, however. The darkness is kinda cool, gives you concealment incase you need to hide spontanously in the middle of no where.

Necomancer
2007-01-04, 12:28 AM
Point 1: They have to be outsiders, not only because it isn't too powerful for an LA +0 (See Neraphs and Spikers from Planar Handbook) but because that's a vital part of their flavor. This is the difference between a Tiefling and a Human with the Fiendish Heritage Feat.

Point 2: Dex and Charisma don't balance. Just check the DMG; Dex or Str balance for two Mentals or 1 other Physical; Con balances for 1 other stat; and 1 Mental balances for 1 Physical or 1 other Mental.

Point 3: Darkness as a SLA is a holdout from 3E when it was a much better spell. Now, the fact that it is 2nd level makes it too much for a LA 0 race, but it sucks too much for LA 1.

Point 4: The Resistances are currently the core benefit of the class, changing to LA 0, they're the first thing that needs to be nerfed.

That in mind, Race Makeover:
Tiefling
Outsider (Native)

+2 Int, -2 Wis: Tieflings are cunning and devious like their Fiendish forebears, but tend to lack empathy or deeper understanding.

Darkvision 60 ft.

Resistances: Fire 2, Cold 2, Electricity 2: Tiefling's share some of their ancestor's natural resistance to energy.

Tieflings get a +2 Racial bonus on saves against Poison.

+2 to Bluff and Hide Checks: Tieflings make up for their foreign appearance with deviousness.

-2 to Diplomacy Checks: Tieflings are often skilled speakers, but their reputation for manipulativeness makes them distrusted everywhere.

Fiendish Power: At character creation, choose 3 0-Level Enchantment, Illusion, or Necromancy spells, none of which can have the "Good" descriptor. You gain these as Spell Like Abilities, each usable once per day.

Fiendish Traits: At character creation, roll two d8, your character has physical traits matching your results.

1-Horns
2-Whiff of Brimstone
3-Hooves
4-Red Eyes
5-Fanged Teeth
6-Vestigal Spines
7-Tail
8-Roll two additional d8; ignoring duplicate results or additional results of 8
The main innovation is the addition of custom spell-like abilities; which I chose because they can never become too powerful at 0 level, but allow a flavor of Fiendish magic and give the player multiple SLAs to work with, as opposed to a one-trick darkness.

The randomized traits may seem like a taboo because they take character customization out of the PCs hands, but part of being a fiend is that you are stuck with what you look like, you don't get to choose it.

No see, I'm sugesting seperateing flavor from direct mechanics. If you think something absolutely needs the outsider trait to be called outsider in game, then thats what you do, not what I do. I think it *is* too powerful to be a LA+0 and if spikers and Neraph's have it and a LA+0 then I think those races should have a LA. Weither wizards agrees with me or not is another matter but this wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with them.

Personaly I hate randomization. Yes, you can argue in real life you don't get a choice but DnD *isn't* real life. Just because you have no choice in real life doesn't mean you shouldn't get one in DnD. You might as well make everyone's race and gender randomized if you go by that logic since you don't get to choose what you're born as either.

Gurgeh
2007-01-04, 12:43 AM
Being an outsider isn't really much of an advantage. You're immune to a half-dozen low-level spells that don't really crop up that frequently and will generally be targeted at the rest of your party anyway. In that sense planetouched are a liability to their companions, as they'll all be hit more frequently with these spells since the enemy casters know better than to waste them on the outsider.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-04, 12:56 AM
No see, I'm sugesting seperateing flavor from direct mechanics. If you think something absolutely needs the outsider trait to be called outsider in game, then thats what you do, not what I do. I think it *is* too powerful to be a LA+0 and if spikers and Neraph's have it and a LA+0 then I think those races should have a LA. Weither wizards agrees with me or not is another matter but this wouldn't be the first time I disagreed with them.I see no problem with seperating flavor from mechanics; but Outsider is a completely balanced trait that works well in the flavor of the Tiefling.

I still fail to see how the outsider type is unbalanced.

Yes, it's a bonus with no real drawbacks, but it's a small bonus, and races have bonuses.

As Person_Man stated earlier, the immunities granted are only useful if your DM refuses to take them into account. The weapon proficiencies are rarely useful to any class that would not already have the same or equivalent proficiencies. The only causes for Tiefling LA were the Net Stat gains and the Resistances


Personaly I hate randomization. Yes, you can argue in real life you don't get a choice but DnD *isn't* real life. Just because you have no choice in real life doesn't mean you shouldn't get one in DnD. You might as well make everyone's race and gender randomized if you go by that logic since you don't get to choose what you're born as either.Well, this was just an idea I had. The reason for greater randomization I saw in Tiefling's was the inherent randomness in the manifestation of Fiendish traits.

Furthermore, I see being stuck with Fiendish traits as an important part of Tiefling flavor, as opposed to, say, a Halfling's hair color.

However, I could easily see that being dropped.

P.S. Add Boumans to the list of LA0 Outsiders.

Jack Mann
2007-01-04, 01:22 AM
Ogres are not proficient with martial weapons because of their type. Giants do not automatically gain martial weapon proficiency. That is a special quality of their particular race. Trolls, while also giants, do not gain any weapon or armor proficiencies.

Rakshasa, on the other hand, do not have any mention of proficiencies in their entry. However, as outsiders, they are automatically proficient with martial weapons (though not armor). It isn't mentioned because it's specified for their type.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-01-04, 01:25 AM
Ogres are not proficient with martial weapons because of their type. Giants do not automatically gain martial weapon proficiency. That is a special quality of their particular race. Trolls, while also giants, do not gain any weapon or armor proficiencies.

Rakshasa, on the other hand, do not have any mention of proficiencies in their entry. However, as outsiders, they are automatically proficient with martial weapons (though not armor). It isn't mentioned because it's specified for their type.
I'll have to rethink this then, I could SWEAR I've read somewhere that there's a very strong reason why planetouched don't gain martial weapon proficiency...

Edit: But I'm beginning to think I'm wrong and my tiefling wizard can indeed wield a greatsword.

Jack Mann
2007-01-04, 01:44 AM
My elf wizard with the otherworldly feat is getting a scythe. I mean, I'm normally against scythes, but when you're using it for your coup de grace needs? Perfect.

...Okay, so he could use it for that without proficiency anyway. But it's fun to know that I could wield it in combat without the penalty as well.

Pegasos989
2007-01-04, 02:41 AM
I see no problem with seperating flavor from mechanics; but Outsider is a completely balanced trait that works well in the flavor of the Tiefling.

I still fail to see how the outsider type is unbalanced.

Yes, it's a bonus with no real drawbacks, but it's a small bonus, and races have bonuses.

As Person_Man stated earlier, the immunities granted are only useful if your DM refuses to take them into account. The weapon proficiencies are rarely useful to any class that would not already have the same or equivalent proficiencies. The only causes for Tiefling LA were the Net Stat gains and the Resistances

Well, this was just an idea I had. The reason for greater randomization I saw in Tiefling's was the inherent randomness in the manifestation of Fiendish traits.

Furthermore, I see being stuck with Fiendish traits as an important part of Tiefling flavor, as opposed to, say, a Halfling's hair color.

However, I could easily see that being dropped.

P.S. Add Boumans to the list of LA0 Outsiders.


Compare thiefling to dwarf, as they stand. Assume con and dex bonuses are about balanced. They both get darkvision.

*Thiefling wins by +2 int and his skill bonuses apply to slightly better skills. He also gets some very weak energy resistances.
*Dwarf gets +1 against orcs and goblinoids, +4 ac against giants, stability, stonecunning, racial saving throws against poisons, racial saving throws against spells and spell like abilities. Dwarf is slower but takes no movement penalty for armor so it is not that much of penalty.


So really, I would say that thieflings and dwarf comparement shows well that thieflings won't get +1 la for his strong stats. They are actually weaker than dwarves'...

So the reason why thiefling does get the la has to be outsider type.

And it really is worth the LA - though it is not that useful for fighter types, wizards get to several prcs with that (wiz 5 gets straight to eldritch knight, just to mention first one coming to my mind) and their polymorph magics are much more efficient (alter self - second level spell - grants outsiders 120 feet fly speed ((average)), 20 feet burrow speed, 50 feet fly speed ((perfect)), 18 points of natural armor or similar stuff for 10 minutes per level).

So if you leave them to have their current abilities but remove outsider type, they are better than half-orc but worse than dwarf, so about average. If you give them no racial advantages but the outsider type, they might also be balanced. However, I just wanted to show you how their current LA comes from the outsider type.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-04, 03:38 AM
Compare thiefling to dwarf, as they stand. Assume con and dex bonuses are about balancedThey aren't, according to the DMG, Dex balances for 2 mental stats and Con balances for 1.

*Thiefling wins by +2 int and his skill bonuses apply to slightly better skills. He also gets some very weak energy resistances.Net bonuses to stats are huge, at least in the eyes of wizard. All races who have such bonuses have LA. ALL of them. (If you know a printed exception I'd really like to hear it.)


*Dwarf gets +1 against orcs and goblinoids, +4 ac against giants, stability, stonecunning, racial saving throws against poisons, racial saving throws against spells and spell like abilities. Dwarf is slower but takes no movement penalty for armor so it is not that much of penalty.Slow movement is a huge penalty, especially if your character is a caster or rogue that doesn't use heavier armors. Also, the Dwarven bonuses, except for spell save bonus, are extremely specialized. The energy resistances are not weak, subtracting 5 damage from most magical attacks is very significant. Also, Tieflings do get a 2nd level SLA, albeit not a great one.


So really, I would say that thieflings and dwarf comparement shows well that thieflings won't get +1 la for his strong stats. They are actually weaker than dwarves'...

So the reason why thiefling does get the la has to be outsider type.This is circular reasoning: you're saying that Tieflings are powerful because of the Outsider type, and that the Outsider type is powerful because Tieflings have it.

Furthermore, this whole argument is hinged on dwarves being better, which they aren't, It's far too subjective a standard.


And it really is worth the LA - though it is not that useful for fighter types, wizards get to several prcs with that (wiz 5 gets straight to eldritch knight, just to mention first one coming to my mind)This is a relatively specialized idea, not a judgement on the overall power of the ability.

...their polymorph magics are much more efficient (alter self - second level spell - grants outsiders 120 feet fly speed ((average)), 20 feet burrow speed, 50 feet fly speed ((perfect)), 18 points of natural armor or similar stuff for 10 minutes per level).Polymorph is the single most problematic spell school in the entire game; those spells are the issue in this example, not the Outsider type.


So if you leave them to have their current abilities but remove outsider type, they are better than half-orc but worse than dwarf, so about average. If you give them no racial advantages but the outsider type, they might also be balanced. However, I just wanted to show you how their current LA comes from the outsider type.
This is an extremely subjective comparison based only on the Dwarf. The only real benefits you've given are potential Polymorph abuse (See also: Everything) and a slightly easier access to a prestige class. (By the way, I don't see the huge bonus to getting easier access to Eldritch knight without taking 1 level of fighter, as you have to give up a level Arcane progression, so taking the class is generally for people who want to multiclass as a martial/arcance hybrid anyway.)

Gurgeh
2007-01-04, 05:41 AM
ArmorArmadillo, you seem to be talking about the MM version of the Tiefling, which is LA +1. The LA0 version we're discussing is designed as a transition race (and the player can subsequently use a level to gain full tiefling abilities). It doesn't have the +2 to Int and its elemental damage resistances are only 2, not 5 - it also has a considerably weaker version of Darkness for its SLA. I'd say that the LA0 Tiefling is quite balanced.

Person_Man
2007-01-04, 10:08 AM
My elf wizard with the otherworldly feat is getting a scythe. I mean, I'm normally against scythes, but when you're using it for your coup de grace needs? Perfect.

...Okay, so he could use it for that without proficiency anyway. But it's fun to know that I could wield it in combat without the penalty as well.

There is no reason for a wizard to waste a feat on a scythe.

Taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat only gets you proficient with one martial weapon. So if you're really dying to carry around and use a high crit weapon as a Wizard, you should at least invest proficiency in a good exotic weapon instead, like a like a Goliath Greathammer (superior damage), Bec de Corbin (reach, vs charge), or Dire Pick (one handed).

And as you noted, coup de grace auto-hits, so you need not worry about the -4 penalty for non-proficiency if you want to carry around a scythe for that reason.

Pegasos989
2007-01-04, 10:49 AM
They aren't, according to the DMG, Dex balances for 2 mental stats and Con balances for 1.
Net bonuses to stats are huge, at least in the eyes of wizard. All races who have such bonuses have LA. ALL of them. (If you know a printed exception I'd really like to hear it.)

DMG is bad example of what is balanced in this subject. It gives us the useless half orc, the even more useless half elf... The only reason why they made con worth only one stat is that dwarves have it and they didn't want people to ask "why didn't you follow your own guidelines"?

Con is in the top three stats to practically any character, top two for most. Dex is... okay, just not that good.

Also, printed exception: Lesser aasimar is like aasimar except without outsider type.


Slow movement is a huge penalty, especially if your character is a caster or rogue that doesn't use heavier armors. Also, the Dwarven bonuses, except for spell save bonus, are extremely specialized. The energy resistances are not weak, subtracting 5 damage from most magical attacks is very significant. Also, Tieflings do get a 2nd level SLA, albeit not a great one.

So, we compare thiefling's abilities to optimal (wizard) and dwarves' to those for whom they are bad... (except that we won't compare it to casters when talking about alter self because then you might need to aknowledge how useful the type is) Drink a potion of expeditious retreat and dwarf is faster than human in full plate.


This is circular reasoning: you're saying that Tieflings are powerful because of the Outsider type, and that the Outsider type is powerful because Tieflings have it.

What? No, I didn't.


Furthermore, this whole argument is hinged on dwarves being better, which they aren't, It's far too subjective a standard.

This is a relatively specialized idea, not a judgement on the overall power of the ability.
Polymorph is the single most problematic spell school in the entire game; those spells are the issue in this example, not the Outsider type.

Maybe


This is an extremely subjective comparison based only on the Dwarf. The only real benefits you've given are potential Polymorph abuse (See also: Everything) and a slightly easier access to a prestige class. (By the way, I don't see the huge bonus to getting easier access to Eldritch knight without taking 1 level of fighter, as you have to give up a level Arcane progression, so taking the class is generally for people who want to multiclass as a martial/arcance hybrid anyway.)[/quote]


Well, being able to hit on rays (+5 bab) without wasting quickened true strike is nice... Also, maybe the spells are too strong but the type lets you use them with more advantage than normally, so it makes your character more powerful if using them.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-01-04, 02:26 PM
DMG is bad example of what is balanced in this subject. It gives us the useless half orc, the even more useless half elf... The only reason why they made con worth only one stat is that dwarves have it and they didn't want people to ask "why didn't you follow your own guidelines"?No, it's because benefits in AC and a Save or Damage and Attack are considered better than small bonuses to HP and a Save.


Well, being able to hit on rays (+5 bab) without wasting quickened true strike is nice... Also, maybe the spells are too strong but the type lets you use them with more advantage than normally, so it makes your character more powerful if using them.Yes, it's easier to take Eldritch knight.It's a benefit. It's a small benefit. (Might I add that a Wiz 5/ElKn 4 is not necessarily better than a Wiz 5/Ftr 1/ElKn 3)

Polymorph is screwed up, period, but either it needs to be changed, or players need to be expected by their groups to stop abusing it; but designers need to stop having to nerf designs simply to avoid abusive interactions with Polymorph.

Finally, you've only given small benefits with specific builds. Every type has advantages and disadvantages with certain builds, but you can't declare a type overpowered simply because it makes a specific build partially better.