Spellthieves and Shadowcasters

[Xuldarinar]

A simple question. Can spell thieves steal mysteries?

My interpretation comes in a handful of forms.


A. Yes, but:
Mysteries cast as arcane spells may be stolen by steal spell.
Mysteries cast as spell-like abilities may only be stolen by steal spell-like ability.
Mysteries cast as Supernatural abilities, cannot be stolen (unless you find a Steal Supernatural ability)

B. Since mysteries are not spells, you cannot steal them. Though perhaps you could still steal them while they are Spell like abilities.

[Chronos]

I would go with A, personally, just on the grounds that the rest of the rules should have some interaction with shadow magic.

[Fax Celestis]

I might make it a feat like psithief. If so, though, I'd put in ways to steal things like vestiges and soulmelds too and give them a bonus feat off a limited list (the aforementioned feats plus, say, Skill Focus, Wandstrike, Cull Wand Essence and some other UMDy things).

[Xuldarinar]

I would go with A, personally, just on the grounds that the rest of the rules should have some interaction with shadow magic.

Thats reasonable. I'd say one could incorporate the -4 penalty on interactions, but I cannot think as to how to do so reasonably as steal spell doesn't have a unique roll.


I might make it a feat like psithief. If so, though, I'd put in ways to steal things like vestiges and soulmelds too and give them a bonus feat off a limited list (the aforementioned feats plus, say, Skill Focus, Wandstrike, Cull Wand Essence and some other UMDy things).

I've made feats for two of those previously that could work, I just wanted to know if it was legal without the inclusion of unofficial content.


Shadow-thief
Prerequisite: Ability to use 2nd-level mysteries, steal spell
Benefit: You can use your steal spell ability to steal shadow energy instead of spell energy. Instead of stealing a spell, you can choose to steal a mystery of up to the same level of spells you can steal. Your levels in spell thief and mystery-using classes stack for the purpose of determining the highest level spell/mystery you can steal and for determining DCs. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level shadowcaster could steal up to 4th level spells and mysteries.
Spells that are stolen, of the evocation and conjuration school are cast as if cast by means of shadow evocation or shadow conjuration, whichever is applicable. This upgrades to greater shadow evocation/conjuration upon learning the equivalent spell or mystery. Unlike the actual spell, this does not limit the maximum level of spell cast.
And finally, mysteries cast may be cast in up to light armor without incurring an arcane spell failure.
Normal: Mysteries, when able to be cast 1 per mystery per day, incur an arcane spell failure when cast in any type of armor.


Vestige-thief
Prerequisite: Ability to bind 2nd-level Visages, steal spell
Benefit: You can use your steal spell ability to steal a vestige in place of a spell. Instead of stealing a spell, you can choose to steal an opponent's vestige of up to one level lower than the highest level spell you can steal. Stealing a vestige still requires you to make the appropriate saves for binding, and will only last until when its duration would have ended (24 hours after it was bound by the original binder). Your binder levels and spell thief levels stack for the purposes of determining the highest level spell/vestige you may steal, and for determining DCs.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Technically, I don't think a spell-thief can steal a mystery by RAW because a shadowcaster doesn't prepare spells and doesn't have spell slots. So it kinda doesn't work with the ability as it is worded.

On the other hand, I think A would be a very reasonable interpretation considering that the shadowcaster wasn't around when the spell-thief was created. Also shadowcasting is supposed to be at lest somewhat compatable with normal magic.

[Xuldarinar]

Technically, I don't think a spell-thief can steal a mystery by RAW because a shadowcaster doesn't prepare spells and doesn't have spell slots. So it kinda doesn't work with the ability as it is worded.

On the other hand, I think A would be a very reasonable interpretation considering that the shadowcaster wasn't around when the spell-thief was created. Also shadowcasting is supposed to be at lest somewhat compatable with normal magic.

True, for it to function, one would have to assume stealing a mystery functions in some ways as Steal spell-like ability does do to the format, though stealing mysteries (arcane spell) would be at the full steal spell progression, where as stealing mysteries (spell-like) would just function as steal spell-like ability normally (any level up to a maximum level of one-third the spell thief's class level).

[enderlord99]

I might make it a feat like psithief. If so, though, I'd put in ways to steal things like vestiges and soulmelds too

DW made some. They're on his section of your wiki. Don't you manage that thing?

[Fax Celestis]

DW made some. They're on his section of your wiki. Don't you manage that thing?

I manage it, sure, but I don't examine everything.

PS: if people want wiki write access so they can store or workbench their homebrew, PM me.

[Xuldarinar]

I manage it, sure, but I don't examine everything.

PS: if people want wiki write access so they can store or workbench their homebrew, PM me.

A notion I'm considering as my shadow-theif feat might go well with the other spelltheif feats, though I'm not sure if it is any good, I'd need someone else's opinion directly addressing it.

By the way, something from the spellthief I'd like to bring up. While steal spell states it doesn't work on psionic powers:

From both CA and this WotC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) article


Spellthieves and Psionics

A campaign that includes psionic characters, as described in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, would logically have room for psionic-themed spellthieves.

If psionics are common in your game, you have two options. The first is to allow spellthieves to affect both spells and psionic powers. The second is to create a new class, the psithief, that functions identically to the spellthief except that its special abilities affect psionic powers only.

In either case, a spellthief who can affect psionic powers treats psionic powers as if they were spells of the same level, allowing him to steal, absorb, or discover known psionic powers as normal for spells. A spellthief can't augment a stolen power, even if he has power points available of his own. Treat psi-like abilities as spell-like abilities for the purpose of a spellthief's stealing these abilities.


One could certainly extend this to any form of magic in the game.

[Fax Celestis]

Absolutely you could. However, its a very vague, grey area.

Can you steal a whole soulmeld? If you do, is it bound? Do you also steal invested essentia? Can you steal a readied maneuver at all? What about an un-readied or expended one? How does that interact with your own maneuvers (if any)? What about a vestige: do you steal one of its abilities or do you take the whole vestige (and do you show its sign)? If you steal a truespeech spell, do you still need the skill ranks in Truespeech to cast the spell? If you steal a mystery castable as a spell-like ability, do you steal both uses or just one?

[Xuldarinar]

Absolutely you could. However, its a very vague, grey area.

Can you steal a whole soulmeld? If you do, is it bound? Do you also steal invested essentia? Can you steal a readied maneuver at all? What about an un-readied or expended one? How does that interact with your own maneuvers (if any)? What about a vestige: do you steal one of its abilities or do you take the whole vestige (and do you show its sign)? If you steal a truespeech spell, do you still need the skill ranks in Truespeech to cast the spell? If you steal a mystery castable as a spell-like ability, do you steal both uses or just one?

Absolutely No argument there. These are things that would have to be sorted out. I wish WotC had something official on the matter, but such is life.

edit: Here is how I'd do it.

Steal a whole soulmeld: Yes. It is not bound, even if the one stolen was, it has a fixed essentia total, and will only last 1 hour. The meldshaper who lost the soulmeld gets the invested essentia back after the soulmeld fades, but can only reshape that soulmeld after 1 minute has passed since it was stolen.

Readied Maneuvers: Since they are not magic, I do not think so. I think a specialized 'Maneuver Thief' would be required.

Un-readied/expended: Same deal.

Vestige: Without a feat, or specialized, I'd say permit them to steal the abilities from one (Limit being Steal Spell level - 1 for vestige level you can steal an ability from). A feat to permit them to do so would require they are capable of binding vestiges, though the vestige wouldn't be bound as long in this case.

Truespeech: That I'm not sure on. Consider them SLAs for that purpose is my take. You briefly steal knowledge of words, even though you might not understand them, let alone what they do. Possibly require truenaming DCs, but based again on the true namer they were taken from.

Mystery SLA: You would steal 1 use, as per Steal Spell-Like Ability. Since shadowcasters automatically have (at least) 2 uses of a mystery before it becomes a SLA, there should be little to no problem unless they have already used it once that day.