Contingency and AMF

[BWR]

Could you use Contingency with the triggering conditions "just before I am subjected to an AMF or similar no magic area"?
Or would the Contingency be suppressed in the AMF because Contingency cannot predict events, only react to them?

[Psyren]

This is hotly debated and comes down to a DM call. One way to potentially justify it is to have an aura emanating from you and base your contingency on that, i.e. "if part of my aura would be suppressed" - that way you can say that the contingency reacts to that suppression before being suppressed itself.

Either way there is no real RAW to cover this sort of thing.

[ryu]

This is hotly debated and comes down to a DM call. One way to potentially justify it is to have an aura emanating from you and base your contingency on that, i.e. "if part of my aura would be suppressed" - that way you can say that the contingency reacts to that suppression before being suppressed itself.

Either way there is no real RAW to cover this sort of thing.

Alternatively make your contingency an instantaneous conjuration teleportation effect. By RAW those still work in AMFs. Oh or something that literally works as an immediate action like abrupt jaunt or setting the aforementioned teleporting spell to something you can activate at immediate action speed. Those would allow you to preempt ever being inside the field.

[TuggyNE]

Alternatively make your contingency an instantaneous conjuration teleportation effect. By RAW those still work in AMFs.

They don't work from inside AMFs, and neither does the contingency itself. You still need to catch it beforehand.

[ryu]

They don't work from inside AMFs, and neither does the contingency itself. You still need to catch it beforehand.

You are never prevented from CASTING in an AMF anywhere in the rules for the mechanic. The results are just suppressed. Instantaneous conjurations are never suppressed in this manner. Now we can debate from now until dawn about the RAI, but the RAW is hilariously clear.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ask your DM. The RAW is, at best, fuzzy and up for debate.

[Psyren]

Actually, only the effect of an instantaneous conjuration is not suppressed by AMF. This is why orbs and similar projectiles are not suppressed. Teleportation spells have no "effect" line and would therefore be suppressed.

Though of course it comes down to how the DM chooses to define "effect" for those spells that lack such a line.

[TuggyNE]

You are never prevented from CASTING in an AMF anywhere in the rules for the mechanic. The results are just suppressed. Instantaneous conjurations are never suppressed in this manner. Now we can debate from now until dawn about the RAI, but the RAW is hilariously clear.


(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

But, if you're casting from within the field, it seems apparent that the spell itself, before its effects finalize, must be suppressed.

[ryu]

But, if you're casting from within the field, it seems apparent that the spell itself, before its effects finalize, must be suppressed.

Dude do you want to sit here for the next three hours going through semantics debate that to this day people are still going off on? I mean we totally can, but I rather doubt either of us will find something the other hasn't already seen to use.

[TuggyNE]

Dude do you want to sit here for the next three hours going through semantics debate that to this day people are still going off on? I mean we totally can, but I rather doubt either of us will find something the other hasn't already seen to use.

No, I don't, not really.

Especially since the question was using contingency (or as the case may be Crafted Contingencies) to trigger this, which means it's irrelevant: it simply cannot function in an AMF, whatever the status of any Conjuration spell at all.

Next idea.

[ryu]

No, I don't, not really.

Especially since the question was using contingency (or as the case may be Crafted Contingencies) to trigger this, which means it's irrelevant: it simply cannot function in an AMF, whatever the status of any Conjuration spell at all.

Next idea.

Now now. This all assumes you activate your contingency while INSIDE the field rather than as an immediate action in response to the opponent trying to cast a field on you. The point from before was just for the sake of pointing out exactly how poorly written AMF is. An actual wizard smart enough to craft contingencies is never caught inside the field written to suppress its own existence anyway and thus this entire thing is a moot point once the secondary thing I put forward is used. The fact that I can even ARGUE the first shows exactly how effective and powerful AMF is.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, I don't, not really.

Especially since the question was using contingency (or as the case may be Crafted Contingencies) to trigger this, which means it's irrelevant: it simply cannot function in an AMF, whatever the status of any Conjuration spell at all.

Next idea.

That is somewhat honestly a worse question actually.

If Contingencies triggered as an Immediate Action then they would supersede the AMF because that is what Immediate Actions do, but Contingencies aren't stated to be immediate actions.

Contingencies are, however, capable of interrupting another action or turn but one set to trigger in the event that you enter an AMF would be blocked (as the AMF shuts down the Contingency before the Contingency gets to trigger), probably.

If your Contingency is set to trigger "when I would be affected by an AMF", that is when it becomes rules iffy. Especially if you have Foresight up.

I personally rule that a Contingency absent Foresight must always proceed the triggering condition and the trigger must be known to the individual with the Contingency. So if you are attacked by an unknown (to you) enemy than a Contingency set to trigger "when I am attacked" will only trigger after that first attack, but if the enemy is known to you then it will trigger before the first attack strikes. In this case "when I would be affected by an AMF" would work if you have Detect Magic up and know that you are about to enter an AMF.

If you have Foresight up then you can set up whatever personal contingencies that you want and they will trigger just fine as you essentially have future knowledge of your personal timeline per the spell.

[TuggyNE]

I personally rule that a Contingency absent Foresight must always proceed the triggering condition and the trigger must be known to the individual with the Contingency. So if you are attacked by an unknown (to you) enemy than a Contingency set to trigger "when I am attacked" will only trigger after that first attack, but if the enemy is known to you then it will trigger before the first attack strikes. In this case "when I would be affected by an AMF" would work if you have Detect Magic up and know that you are about to enter an AMF.

If you have Foresight up then you can set up whatever personal contingencies that you want and they will trigger just fine as you essentially have future knowledge of your personal timeline per the spell.

That seems reasonable. An Evocation is not going to be good at predicting the future or discerning hard-to-detect things, so unless you have a Divination also running, it's limited to essentially your own capabilities of reaction.

[gooddragon1]

Why has the conehead trick not been mentioned?

Make a cone (think oversized dunce cap) that is bigger than you are out of a very light material such as paper (preferably waterproof if possible) and cast shrink item on it. Wear it over your head at all times. AMF suppresses shrink item and it returns to normal size blocking the emanation and allowing you to cast.

[Curmudgeon]

Contingency is an Evocation spell, not a Divination.
Divination

Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells.

Evocation

Evocation spells manipulate energy or tap an unseen source of power to produce a desired end. In effect, they create something out of nothing. Many of these spells produce spectacular effects, and evocation spells can deal large amounts of damage. There's no capability in Contingency to trigger before something has happened; it has no way to predict the future. So it can't go off in anticipation of entering an Antimagic Field, and it can't trigger once inside an Antimagic Field.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get a large metal dome constructed, large enough for you to fit under. Cast Shrink Item on it, wear it like a helmet. As soon as you're subject to AMF the Shrink Item is suppressed and the dome returns to its normal size, completely blocking line of effect and removing you from the AMF. From there you can teleport away, a 3rd level spell completely replaces a 6th level spell that you can only have active once. You can even Lesser Rod of Extend it.

Edit: It can also be used offensively! Shrink Item several cubic feet of molten lava or acid, turning it into a cloth patch. Secure it to the underside of the shrunken dome, the patch itself will never be subject to any AMF. Offensively you can go adjacent to an opponent, speak the command to expand the dome (free action) trapping you both, teleport or Abrupt Jaunt out, then speak the command word to return the lava or acid to normal (free action). The opponent is trapped under a metal dome too heavy to lift, completely submerged in lava or acid (or both, there are highly acidic solids that can be made molten!).

[ryu]

Contingency is an Evocation spell, not a Divination. There's no capability in Contingency to trigger before something has happened; it has no way to predict the future. So it can't go off in anticipation of entering an Antimagic Field, and it can't trigger once inside an Antimagic Field.

Notice however that the subject of a contingent spell is aware of the environment around them, and in some cases actively aware of the future. Contingencies are active agents brought into reality and constantly in effect based on the perceptions of their hosts. This is why all manner of triggers are based mainly upon the knowledge of the person setting the trigger or the host of the spell if they aren't the same person.

[Curmudgeon]

Get a large metal dome constructed, large enough for you to fit under. Cast Shrink Item on it, wear it like a helmet. As soon as you're subject to AMF the Shrink Item is suppressed and the dome returns to its normal size, completely blocking line of effect and removing you from the AMF.
That assumes facing: i.e., that the helmet has its open end always pointing at the ground. But D&D has no guarantee of facing; rather, all characters are constantly looking in all directions, including tilting their heads to look above them for dangers in the sky and down at their feet. So it's going to be up to your DM to decide if the dome covers you, damages you, or pins you with its weight when it expands.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That assumes facing: i.e., that the helmet has its open end always pointing at the ground. But D&D has no guarantee of facing; rather, all characters are constantly looking in all directions, including tilting their heads to look above them for dangers in the sky and down at their feet. So it's going to be up to your DM to decide if the dome covers you, damages you, or pins you with its weight when it expands.

Even if it expands at a tilt, it still expands outwards in all directions equally. You will still be within the recess of the dome, and gravity will cause it to fall into place surrounding you.

[TuggyNE]

That assumes facing: i.e., that the helmet has its open end always pointing at the ground. But D&D has no guarantee of facing; rather, all characters are constantly looking in all directions, including tilting their heads to look above them for dangers in the sky and down at their feet. So it's going to be up to your DM to decide if the dome covers you, damages you, or pins you with its weight when it expands.

Are we going to have this discussion repeatedly without acknowledging previous suggested solutions? :smallsigh:

Let's see if I can sum up: shrunken objects auto-expand when suppressed by AMFs (but not ETFs, of course, in case you wish to check for those too); this expansion may happen unexpectedly and a careless user could theoretically mis-angle their head with potentially dire consequences; sensible users can readily devise a habit or even a simple brace or the like to entirely avoid this possible consequence in all cases.

Problem solved, at the expense of adding another couple lines of description to the character sheet.

[Curmudgeon]

Even if it expands at a tilt, it still expands outwards in all directions equally.
Equally from what reference point? It it's equally from a point on the lip, it's going to expand well off to the side of the character. The Shrink Item spell description doesn't go into this level of detail, so your individual DM will get to decide. (Given that Shrink Item applies to "One touched object", your DM might be willing to keep track of where the dome was touched. However, it's impossible to touch the volumetric center since there's nothing there.)

...this expansion may happen unexpectedly and a careless user could theoretically mis-angle their head with potentially dire consequences; sensible users can readily devise a habit ...
You can't "devise a habit" of facing or adjusting head-tilt angle in a game which does not acknowledge facing or have any mechanic for tracking head-tilt angle. It's simply not within the scope of the rules, much as you'd like it to be.

[ryu]

Equally from what reference point? It it's equally from a point on the lip, it's going to expand well off to the side of the character. The Shrink Item spell description doesn't go into this level of detail, so your individual DM will get to decide. (Given that Shrink Item applies to "One touched object", your DM might be willing to keep track of where the dome was touched. However, it's impossible to touch the volumetric center since there's nothing there.)

You can't "devise a habit" of facing or adjusting head-tilt angle in a game which does not acknowledge facing or have any mechanic for tracking head-tilt angle. It's simply not within the scope of the rules, much as you'd like it to be.

A brace is perfectly easy to create though. That or live and die for your own argument and acknowledge that something that isn't covered in the rules has no effect on them for better or worse.

[Curmudgeon]

A brace is perfectly easy to create though.
How is a brace going to control the expansion of the shrunken object?

That or live and die for your own argument and acknowledge that something that isn't covered in the rules has no effect on them for better or worse.
D&D isn't a permissive ("I can do anything the rules don't forbid!") game; rather, it says what you can do. Something that isn't covered by the rules is always up to the DM, not determined by the players.

[ryu]

How is a brace going to control the expansion of the shrunken object?

D&D isn't a permissive ("I can do anything the rules don't forbid!") game; rather, it says what you can do. Something that isn't covered by the rules is always up to the DM, not determined by the players.

By controlling the way your head tilts? Gee I thought that erratic head motion was the crux of your point or something. Further the dm can make up whatever silly rules he wants. He can't prevent his players from interacting with them though.

[Curmudgeon]

By controlling the way your head tilts? Gee I thought that erratic head motion was the crux of your point or something.
So you're going to create something to keep the PC's head from turning relative to their body, when the orientation of their body is also not specifiable in game terms? That does nothing at all.

Further the dm can make up whatever silly rules he wants. It's not the DM "making up silly rules"; it's the DM handling cases which the game rules don't cover.

[ryu]

So you're going to create something to keep the PC's head from turning relative to their body, when the orientation of their body is also not specifiable in game terms? That does nothing at all.
It's not the DM "making up silly rules"; it's the DM handling cases which the game rules don't cover.

Not stop all movement. Control what axis movement can occur on. Tilt is the problem not pivoting. Further that's still making up rules. You're describing a motive by way of specific goal there rather than an actual action.

[Curmudgeon]

Not stop all movement. Control what axis movement can occur on. Tilt is the problem not pivoting. Further that's still making up rules. You're describing a motive by way of specific goal there rather than an actual action.
I don't see how any sort of brace is going to keep the head's orientation fixed in a game which (1) doesn't keep track of any part of body orientation; and (2) has a Tumble skill.

Unless you can establish a rules basis for how any of your proposals work, you're apparently the one "making up rules".

[ryu]

I don't see how any sort of brace is going to keep the head's orientation fixed in a game which (1) doesn't keep track of any part of body orientation; and (2) has a Tumble skill.

Unless you can establish a rules basis for how any of your proposals work, you're apparently the one "making up rules".

By keeping track of it? Also what wizard bothers with tumble?

No. I'm acting within the rules you brought into existence. I was content to not bother with this nonsense before you made it a thing.

[Deox]

A variant application, but a variant none the less:

Unearthed Arcana, page 124 and onward has rules for facing. Facing, does in fact, exist in D&D.

[Curmudgeon]

By keeping track of it?
What game mechanic are you using to "keep track of" facing in a game which doesn't use facing?

I'm acting within the rules you brought into existence.
I haven't brought any rules into existence; I'm just relying on what's in the RAW.

[Deox]

What game mechanic are you using to "keep track of" facing in a game which doesn't use facing?

Please see above.

The section goes into pretty decent length, actually, regarding: direction, movement, attacking, and perception.

[Curmudgeon]

Please see above.

The section goes into pretty decent length, actually, regarding: direction, movement, attacking, and perception.
Fine. But how often are people going to use those variant rules just so they can try to use the shrunken helmet trick against Antimagic Field?

[ryu]

Fine. But how often are people going to use those variant rules just so they can try to use the shrunken helmet trick against Antimagic Field?

When the dm brings up those rules? All dms live with the rules they choose to bring to relevance.

[Deox]

Oh, I'm not disputing that by any stretch of the imagination.

Merely pointing out that they exist :smallwink:

[TuggyNE]

What game mechanic are you using to "keep track of" facing in a game which doesn't use facing?

I haven't brought any rules into existence; I'm just relying on what's in the RAW.

That's not correct. You're assuming the (potential) existence of a houserule (that head tilting is possible, and will have observable in-game effects) while denying that it is a houserule and that such a houserule could be known of and sensible in-game counters be devised. This is not RAW; this is "rulings as could be made that don't contradict RAW".

Either head tilting doesn't happen/has no effect, or else it does have an effect. If it has an effect, then clearly there is a mechanical rule, and such a rule (whatever its source) should be kept consistent. As such, if it is possible for head tilting to have deleterious effects, it is also possible for a sufficiently dedicated character to prevent it in various ways, all of which would also fall under the category of "rulings as could be made that don't contradict RAW".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Equally from what reference point? It it's equally from a point on the lip, it's going to expand well off to the side of the character. The Shrink Item spell description doesn't go into this level of detail, so your individual DM will get to decide. (Given that Shrink Item applies to "One touched object", your DM might be willing to keep track of where the dome was touched. However, it's impossible to touch the volumetric center since there's nothing there.)

If the shrunken item is resting on its edge, then it will expand out from its edge because it can't go any further that direction. When worn as a hat, the interior is resting upon the character's head, so the spot upon which it rests will be the reference point from which it expands. If your head is perfectly upright, the upper center of the interior is that reference point because that's the spot on the shrunken item where its weight is resting. If the wearer is looking up, then a spot on the interior slightly forward is the spot upon which it rests, and it still expands around the character as normal, just at a slight tilt. The edge of the dome may hit the ground a bit sooner tilted, but it's still far enough from the character that when it falls into place it's still over the character in a protective manner.

Example: You have an enormous log, shrunken to the size of a stick, and it's balancing at the center. When it expands, the center of the unshrunken log is still at the exact same point where the center of the stick was balancing. If it's heavier at one end than the other, and it's balancing on a point 30% from the end, then when it expands it will still have a point 30% from the end at the point where it was balancing.

The same goes for the shrunken dome. If you're looking up and the dome's weight is resting on your head, at a point on the interior of the dome 20% from the center, then it will expand with whatever point of the interior of dome which is 20% from the center for its current size at the uppermost point of your character's head.

[Curmudgeon]

You're assuming the (potential) existence of a houserule (that head tilting is possible, and will have observable in-game effects) while denying that it is a houserule ...
No, I'm pointing out that the game does not have a mechanism to establish any head orientation, either fixed or varying. Whether head tilting is possible is irrelevant.

If the shrunken item is resting on its edge, then it will expand out from its edge because it can't go any further that direction.
You seem to be assuming a limit which is not stated in the text of Shrink Item. Unlike Enlarge Person, there is no restriction on size change which would prevent damage. The expanding item can go in any direction, even if that would impinge on whatever is already there.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You seem to be assuming a limit which is not stated in the text of Shrink Item. Unlike Enlarge Person, there is no restriction on size change which would prevent damage. The expanding item can go in any direction, even if that would impinge on whatever is already there.

You seem to be assuming a capability which is not stated in the text of Shrink Item. Nowhere is it stated that the item is capable of impinging on whatever objects are already present. If a shrunken item tries to expand into a space that it cannot fit into, then the item itself should compress to fit the space, as the spell does not state that it is capable of damaging or moving objects or creatures as it expands.

To further elaborate, Shrink Item can only affect the item it's cast on. The item's growth is another part of that same spell, so the item's growth can only affect the item itself which the spell was cast on, not surrounding items or creatures.

[Curmudgeon]

You seem to be assuming a capability which is not stated in the text of Shrink Item. Nowhere is it stated that the item is capable of impinging on whatever objects are already present. If a shrunken item tries to expand into a space that it cannot fit into, then the item itself should compress to fit the space, as the spell does not state that it is capable of damaging or moving objects or creatures as it expands.
You're making up something that disagrees with the text of the spell:

Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster.
There is no option to grow partway to original size; the item must regain normal composition and size. If damage happens to occur in the process, that's a secondary consequence of strictly following the spell text.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're making up something that disagrees with the text of the spell:

There is no option to grow partway to original size; the item must regain normal composition and size. If damage happens to occur in the process, that's a secondary consequence of strictly following the spell text.

So it returns to its original size, which does not include its original shape. It returns to its original composition, which means it returns to the original material if you chose to shrink it to a cloth patch. None of that explicitly states that it grows to its original shape, and if its original shape will not fit into the current space available, then it will be misshapen until it can be at its original size. The spell is not capable of affecting objects or creatures apart from the shrunken item, and the item's growth is another effect of the spell, so a shrunken item's growth can only affect that item itself.

[TuggyNE]

No, I'm pointing out that the game does not have a mechanism to establish any head orientation, either fixed or varying.

Indeed. In the absence of such mechanism, it is impossible for there to be mechanical consequences for any head orientation, either fixed or varying.

If there are mechanical consequences, there must perforce be a mechanism to adjudge them; this mechanism, houseruled as it must be, should still be possible to interact with in the usual manner of all rules mechanisms, meaning that common-sense solutions with appropriate mechanical backing work fine. After all, head orientation, if present, is a common-sense problem with an appropriate mechanical backing.

You can't have your cake and eat it too; you can't say "in this game, your head may be tilted, which means that expanding lead hats will cut your arm off 20% of the time" without also allowing for "here's a mechanism to ensure my head is not tilted". Unless you're literally using fiat to say that such mechanisms, despite their obvious common-sense basis and lack of any possible rule against them, simply do not and cannot work.

[Pickford]

"If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on."

Sounds pretty convoluted to me. Also, it requires 'some condition' with the only proffered examples being 'any time you are plunged into or otherwise engulfed in water or similar liquid' and 'when you fall more than 4 feet.' Both describe concrete phyiscal condition changes. This suggests only those are valid options. Anything else (i.e. you speak a phrase, or come 'near' an AMF) are invalid.

[ryu]

The given person speaking a specific phrase is an incredibly specific trigger. It fully illustrates the precise thing that will activate it in full detail.

[bot]

Really interesting thread, that I found of great use!

.... until the discussion of theoretic cheese through shrink item was introduced and de-railed the thread utterly :smallsigh:

Hoping to hear more good ingame suggestions.

[TuggyNE]

.... until the discussion of theoretic cheese through shrink item was introduced and de-railed the thread utterly :smallsigh:

Hoping to hear more good ingame suggestions.

What's wrong with a shrunken leadfoil hat? It's pretty practical, makes wizard hat shapes functional, and requires only a decent knowledge of the interaction between two Core spells. There's nothing TO about it.

I mean, maybe it's a bit cheesy, but it's really only maybe a 3 on a scale of Spell Focus to DCFS.

[captain fubar]

rather than trying to make your contingency triger off the amf its self have it trigger once your shink item spell is supressed and a braclet charm turns back into a tower shield or your hat turns back into a hallow cone shaped bolder by having cover you block the line of effect from the sorce of the amf and become excluded from the effect of the emination.