Merging the Pathfinder and The Planescape Campaign Settings

[123456789blaaa]

(the PSCS I'm talking about is the one (http://www.planewalker.com/sites/www.planewalker.com/files/chapter1.pdf)that also incorporates 3E material.)

I'm wondering how you'd incorporate the Pathfinder Campaign Setting into the Planescape cosmology. The first thought I had was to make Golarion a world in a Crystal Sphere. The beings and deities that don't appear in the other settings are handled easily enough. They can be said to only operate in that particular crystal sphere. The beings that exist in both Golarion and previously published dnd settings (Asmodeus, Lamashtu, Socothbenoth etc) are a little trickier. The problem is that their are often differences between the two.

For example, Lamashtu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamashtu_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)) in dnd plays a very minor role in the setting. She's a demon lord of monstrous births who was once Pazazu's lover. She abused his true name so he put out her eyes and imprisoned her in his realm.

Lamashtu (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Lamashtu) in Pathfinder on the other hand, plays quite a large role in the setting. While I think it's pretty clear they're the same being, there are some major differences as well. Pathfinder!Lamashtu is a major deity (said to be the first to achieve godhood). She's very active and has many worshippers.

Some of the layers of "Hell" are named differently and are ruled by different beings. Some remain the same.

Any ideas on how to reconcile these? Any ideas on other aspects of merging the two settings? I'm pretty unfamiliar with Golarion so info is appreciated.

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, big fish, small pond would be one way. Sure, she may be a major player in the Galarion, but in the far broader waters of the multiplane, she's just another minor player. She found a way to escape to that 'verse while maintaining the façade of being imprisoned, but she can't leave without revealing the fraud.
As for the latter, every 'verse has its own hell. Unlike the Abyss, which is infinite, there is only so many devils per Hell.

[Psyren]

Asmodeus is fairly minor (not even a deity) in 3e D&D as well. It was only PF and some 4e settings (PoL/Faerun) that bumped him up to major player status the way they did.

Lamashtu in Golarion is roughly on par with Lolth from 3.5 I'd say. Not sure where that puts her in the Planescape echelon.

[123456789blaaa]

Eh, big fish, small pond would be one way. Sure, she may be a major player in the Galarion, but in the far broader waters of the multiplane, she's just another minor player.

No less so than Gruumsh or Moradin. The difference is that she's only major in one Crystal Sphere while they are active in many.

Anyways the problem is that Lamashtu is both free and walking around on her layer in the Abyss according to Pathfinder and yet is also imprisoned and helpless on Pazazu's layer according to dnd. How do you reconcile those two?

Maybe the events of the PCS takes place in the future when she's freed herself?

EDIT:


Asmodeus is fairly minor (not even a deity) in 3e D&D as well. It was only PF and some 4e settings (PoL/Faerun) that bumped him up to major player status the way they did.

Lamashtu in Golarion is roughly on par with Lolth from 3.5 I'd say. Not sure where that puts her in the Planescape echelon.

Asmodeus is really really powerful. He is the ruler of an entire plane and its major inhabitants while gods rule over fiefdoms in others. He has all the resources of Baator at his command. He has enormous personal power (He's epic level even in his aspect form). He can demote and promote devils at will and bleeds Pit Fiends. I would not call Asmodeus "fairly minor".

In other words: http://nooooooooooooooo.com/ :smalltongue:.

[Ravens_cry]

No less so than Gruumsh or Moradin. The difference is that she's only major in one Crystal Sphere while they are active in many.

Anyways the problem is that Lamashtu is both free and walking around on her layer in the Abyss according to Pathfinder and yet is also imprisoned and helpless on Pazazu's layer according to dnd. How do you reconcile those two?

Maybe the events of the PCS takes place in the future when she's freed herself?
My edit answers that I believe. If you only had one Hell in the whole multiverse, the Devils would be stretched so thin as to be easily outmatched by the infinite Demons.
Oh bother, scratch that.

[123456789blaaa]

My edit answers that I believe. If you only had one Hell in the whole multiverse, the Devils would be stretched so thin as to be easily outmatched by the infinite Demons.
Oh bother, scratch that.

Source for there being multiple hells? . Everything I've seen-from the link in the OP to the Wiki's, to Afroakuma's (a HUGE planes buff) planar questions thread, indicates that there's only one Hell (well, technically there are Nine but you get my point). See: the Manual of the Planes.

As for the devils being overwhelmed...Afroakuma had a ton of responses to this in his planar questions threads. I'll try to dig them up.

[Alleran]

As far as crystal spheres are concerned, if Golarion is one then it is a huge one, because it encompasses an entire universe, complete with other solar systems, galaxies, and so on and so forth. Plus the Mythos.


Anyways the problem is that Lamashtu is both free and walking around on her layer in the Abyss according to Pathfinder and yet is also imprisoned and helpless on Pazazu's layer according to dnd. How do you reconcile those two?
Her old demon lord form/shell/husk is trapped, while her risen god-self can wander around on her own layer?

[137beth]

James Jacobs said that the reason Lamashtu was promoted to demon-prince was because they could not use Demogorgon (more specifically, they can indirectly reference the name 'demogorgon', since it is the name of a mythological creature, but they cannot talk about Demogorgon as the creature in other D&D settings (or, for that matter, as Demogorgon was presented in the last Dungeon magazine AP, which was Paizo's attempt to say everything they wanted to say about Demogorgon before losing the right to talk about him)), since that was a creation of Gygax, so they wanted another creature to be the 'ruler of the abyss'.
He also said that if they had the rights to Demogorgon, they probably would have made him into a god, with roughly the same status Lamashtu has now.

So if you are combining Planescape with Golarion, I'd say promote Demogorgon, have him replace PF Lamashtu, and keep the planescape version of Lamashtu.

[123456789blaaa]

As far as crystal spheres are concerned, if Golarion is one then it is a huge one, because it encompasses an entire universe, complete with other solar systems, galaxies, and so on and so forth. Plus the Mythos.


Her old demon lord form/shell/husk is trapped, while her risen god-self can wander around on her own layer?

Is there a limit on how big a crystal sphere can be?

I actually really like the "husk" idea. There isn't really a precedent for it but I think it could fit.

Though...the more I think about it, the more I favor the "Golarion takes place in the FUTURE" theory. It fits with things like Asmodeus becoming a god.


James Jacobs said that the reason Lamashtu was promoted to demon-prince was because they could not use Demogorgon (more specifically, they can indirectly reference the name 'demogorgon', since it is the name of a mythological creature, but they cannot talk about Demogorgon as the creature in other D&D settings (or, for that matter, as Demogorgon was presented in the last Dungeon magazine AP, which was Paizo's attempt to say everything they wanted to say about Demogorgon before losing the right to talk about him)), since that was a creation of Gygax, so they wanted another creature to be the 'ruler of the abyss'.
He also said that if they had the rights to Demogorgon, they probably would have made him into a god, with roughly the same status Lamashtu has now.

So if you are combining Planescape with Golarion, I'd say promote Demogorgon, have him replace PF Lamashtu, and keep the planescape version of Lamashtu.

I dunno, does Demogorgon really gain much from being a god? What would his portfolio be anyways?

[hamishspence]

Evil awakened animals, maybe? Apparently troglodytes worshipping him as "Ahmon-Ibor, the Sibilant Beast" specialise in awakening animals and filling them with fanaticism.

[123456789blaaa]

Evil awakened animals, maybe? Apparently troglodytes worshipping him as "Ahmon-Ibor, the Sibilant Beast" specialise in awakening animals and filling them with fanaticism.

Source? I'd be interested in reading more about that.

[hamishspence]

Fiendish Codex 1 - though I think it gets it from older material.

Dungeon Magazine Issue 120, as I recall, had an adventure- heroes vs troglodytes and awakened apes in one of his temples.

[Cog]

As far as crystal spheres are concerned, if Golarion is one then it is a huge one, because it encompasses an entire universe, complete with other solar systems, galaxies, and so on and so forth. Plus the Mythos.

Is there a limit on how big a crystal sphere can be?
Warning: completely baseless speculation ahead. Perhaps there's a reason Golarion's sphere is different - perhaps, at some time in the past, it was a typical crystal sphere with a single sun within. Somebody, or some group, attempted to steal it, wrenching it from the material plane into the Ethereal or Shadow. It turns out that there's a really good reason or the phlogiston; that stuff inhibits the growth of crystal spheres. Unchecked, Golarion's sphere is expanding, spawning this new cosmos within, like a demiplane on steroids.

[CombatOwl]

Lamashtu in Golarion is roughly on par with Lolth from 3.5 I'd say. Not sure where that puts her in the Planescape echelon.

"Next on the PC's target list."

[Psyren]

"Next on the PC's target list."

PF deities have no stats :smalltongue: (and aren't likely to for a long time)

[137beth]

PF deities have no stats :smalltongue: (and aren't likely to for a long time)

Of course Deities and Demigods still works perfectly as well as it ever did, so if we're already talking about statting up 3.5 gods then that's a pretty bad excuse.
...
...
Unless, of course, the method you use to stat up deities somehow depends on stuff that can't be used in PF.
EDIT: although actually I'm not sure if this thread so far has specified what rules set is in use, so it might work just as well to stat the Golarion gods with whatever method you prefer to use for the Planescape gods.

[BWR]

It's a lot easier to combine Golarion with PS than with Spelljammer.
An easy fix would be to just ignore the SJ aspects of PS, with terms like 'crystal spheres' being ones the ignorant use about solar systems.
You could also adopt SJ with a little more tweaking - instead of cyrstal spheres, you just have a biiiiig vacuum dotted with stars and planets, spelljammers dip into the Ethereal rather than phlogiston, the stranger SJ crystal spheres will have to be rewritten a bit but most of it should work well enough.