Any advice for Necropolitans or similar?

[Krazzman]

Hello again playground,

in one of our Groups we achieved Level 4 and I play a Cleric of Tymora3/Warlock1 going for Eldritch Disciple.
The Group is:
Halfing Factotum 4
Halfling Unarmed Swordsage 4
Elven Sorcerer 4
Elven Illusionist Specialist WIzard 3/Master Specialist Illusion 1(or Wizard 4 and he takes MS next level)
Human Druid of Malar (Augment Summoning and Ashbound summoning)
and my Character.

The DM had some concerns about our druid due to me having to fill in for her and player her falsely (taking the summoned wolves from her Animal Companions stats instead of the real ones). After some bit of Reverse engineering we finally have them right but he was a bit dumbfounded as he never saw a such effective druid before (despite having played 3.5 for quite some time, albeit without optimizing...)

With the current arc I feel like we could lose some of us (we faced a "dragon" and he did 22 damage against my 40 hp in one turn and this would've roasted both our Arcane casters) and as such I am, possibly overthinking it again, collecting ideas for a backup character.

Stats will be rolled with 4d6b3. And to keep it in line to some sort of prophecy he has I should probably join again with something that has a strong believe and is rather good aligned.

But I am curious about the Necropolitan Template. Where can I find it officially mentioned?

So to streamline this: can you help me make something that hits most of the points on the following list?

Non-Evil Alignment
Strong in Faith
Strong Survivability
no LA
non-cheesy
T4 to T2 in terms of Flexibility
only minor Bookkeeping needed
around level 4
Immortal/no need to sleep/eat
No Warforged (:smallfrown:)
No Class I am currently playing (see signature[Cleric would be ok])
Not too dependend on WBL


Available Sources:
Core, Phb2, ToB, MoI, all Completes, Races of Destiny, Races of the Wild, Unearthed Arcana (on case by case basis), Dungeonscape.

We play with Fractional BaB and Fumbles (Pathfinder Fumble/Crit decks in use).

So any recommendations where I should look with this?

A few things I considered(not combined): Crusader, Necropolitan, Bardsader, Luckfeats(Up till Better Lucky than Good), Initiate of Mystra, Incarnate/Necrocarnate, Bloodstorm Blade.

[Jack_Simth]

Necropolitan is in Libris Mortis - not on your source list.

Be careful with it, though; being undead is basically giving permission for your DM to take you out of the fight whenever he feels like (evil Cleric at level+2: "Rebuke!" ... and you're Cowering for 10 rounds, no save; Good Cleric at level+2: "Turn Undead!"... and you're fleeing for 10 rounds, no save).

[Story]

There are ways to boost your turn resistance. You can also avoid being turned by staying more than 60 feet away or having total cover. But it is a risk.

Of course, it's a lot easier to boost turning checks then turn resistance. But then it's more obvious when you're facing an opponent specifically optimized to make you useless and your DM may not want to open the can of worms that lets you turn epic Lichs twice your level.

Disguising yourself so that people don't realize you're undead in the first place might be the best defense. Disguise Undead lasts 24 hours.

Of course this is all moot if you don't have access to Libris Mortis.

[OldTrees1]

[only applicable if you gain access to Libris Mortis]
Necropolitian does not give LA but does cost 3000gp, you lose 1 level. (level loss resets you to half the xp to gain that level) and then you lose 1000xp
It starts with +2 Turn Resistance

So a 3rd level (3000xp) character would lose a level [2nd level, 2000xp] and then lose 1000xp [2nd level, 1000xp]
Of course that is a rich 3rd level character.

Lifebond is a feat in LM that can be taken multiple times. Each time it gives +4 turn resistance and +2 saves as long as yet another bonded living creature is within 60ft of you.

As long as you stay away from Sun fanatics, you just need +2 Turn resistance to avoid being Destroyed or Controlled by clerics that are not optimized for turning. Each +2 turning of optimization requires +1 turn resistance.

[Story]

There's also a cloak that gives +4 resistance for 11k.

And of course you could always use the ablative armor trick by surrounding yourself with a horde of tiny viper skeletons. But that gets a bit unwieldy.

[Ravens_cry]

Or you could use Disguise to make yourself look human. Don't use any magic other than items that boost your Disguise skill directly (so no hat of disguise, but a custom item of disguise works) and you should be golden. Hopefully.

[JaronK]

Basics of being a Necropolitan:

1) Lifesight is an awesome feat. It's in Libris Mortis, which is where Necropolitan is found. Take it if you want to auto detect living things.

2) If possible, get yourself Spellstitched (Complete Arcane). Make sure your Wisdom is 19 when that happens.

3) Try to get made into a Necropolitan in an area that's desecrated and has an evil altar. That's a free (assuming you have someone to cast the spell) +2 HP/HD. It would be even better if a Dread Necromancer 8 or UA Variant Necromancer Wizard could do the procedure for 2 more HP/HD and a free +4 enhancement bonus to Str and Dex, but that's harder to get.

4) Always disguise yourself as a living creature. This will avoid Clerics Turning or Rebuking you. Clerics won't have enough spot ranks to see through your disguise. Also, there's lots of specific anti undead stuff that you don't want people using on you... and you DO want people trying stuff on you that you're actually immune to.

JaronK

[Story]

Why not use both magic and mundane disguise?

[Ravens_cry]

Why not use both magic and mundane disguise?
Because magic can be removed and detected by magic, while nothing can pierce some well applied grease paint apparently.

[Story]

But you're still better off then if you didn't have the magic in the first place.

The easiest spell to dispell is the one that was never cast.

[Ravens_cry]

But you're still better off then if you didn't have the magic in the first place.

The easiest spell to dispell is the one that was never cast.
Actually, that's the hardest spell to dispel. Someone finding you have an illusion spell in place on you might have their suspicions aroused a more than a little. While their mind will not leap to 'Undead!', it will leap to 'Hiding Something!'.

[Story]

Yes but adventurers always have dozens of spells on them anyway, so it wouldn't really stand out.

[Krazzman]

Woah, awesome responses, but let's assume that the Necropolitan was just a small part of what direction I want to go.

The Libris Mortis... I have a pdf-scan from our old group where we had a physical copy.
Another thing that could be great is a Psionic character (we have the Comp Psi and I think the SRD will be ok).

"Immortality" is only a secondary part of what I want to accomplish, I can wait for it if it needs to.

[Ravens_cry]

Yes but adventurers always have dozens of spells on them anyway, so it wouldn't really stand out.

Illusion would, as people don't go around wearing illusion spells at all times unless they are hiding something about their appearance. One way to get some leeway might be to have a hat of disguise and turn your hair an obviously fake colour as part of the disguise. That way ,when they detect illusion, they will likely think 'Oh, hat of disguise'. Still, it's a risky gambit, though it could work in a high magic universe.

[Krazzman]

Would a Changeling Necropolitan retain his special abilities (the +10 to Disguise?)

[OldTrees1]

Would a Changeling Necropolitan retain his special abilities (the +10 to Disguise?)

Yes Necropolitians retain all previous racial traits (except Constitution)

[Krazzman]

Ok then, would you mind, if one of your players chars would die, if they bring a Necropolitan at one level below into the game?

[OldTrees1]

Ok then, would you mind, if one of your players chars would die, if they bring a Necropolitan at one level below into the game?

I would not mind.

In fact I would likely have them start part way into that lost level (since lower level characters get more xp from the same challenges).

I would have them use the wealth by level equal to what the other players are at. (so WBL 1 level higher than they actually are) But they would have to deduct the 3000gp ritual cost from their WBL.

So if the party were 4th level:
The new Necropolitian would be 3rd level with slightly more than 4000xp and would have 2,400gp of wealth after the ritual.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a Necropolitan, say he was created by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with all of the Corpsecrafter feats in LM, within the area of a Desecrate spell with an evil altar present. Say the Desecrate was cast with the Fell Energy Spell metamagic feat from Dragon Compendium, which adds +2 to all numerical bonuses that the spell grants to undead it affects. All of this will give you the following benefits:

+8 HP per level.
+4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity (doesn't stack with most items and spells).
+4 Turn Resistance (total +6 counting the +2 that Necropolitans normally get).
+1d6 cold damage added to all of your natural weapon attacks.
+2 natural armor.
+4 initiative.
+10 ft. base land speed.

Add to this the fact that you can put your absolute worst stat on Constitution and it won't even matter, and if you're playing a caster you can put your second worst stat in Strength and with that free +4 you probably won't have a penalty.

It looks like your party needs a tanky character. With 1d12+8 hp per level you could easily fill that role, even being a level behind. Crusader maneuvers would still be able to heal you, as they're not specifically positive energy. You could put your second lowest stat on Dex and still get a bonus, which won't matter much if you wear full plate. I'd even make the character something like an Earth Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfEarth), so you're not slowed down by armor, and you'll get +8 vs trip, bull rush, etc. Get the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) and you'll have a 40-ft. base land speed even in heavy armor!

[Thanatosia]

For a Necropolitan, say he was created by a Dread Necromancer 8+ with all of the Corpsecrafter feats in LM, within the area of a Desecrate spell with an evil altar present.
I'm not sure this would work. Corpsecrafter and all the related feats state "Benefit: Each undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell gains...".

The problem is the Ritual of Crucimigration is not a Spell.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not sure this would work. Corpsecrafter and all the related feats state "Benefit: Each undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell gains...".

The problem is the Ritual of Crucimigration is not a Spell.

Nowhere is it stated that this ritual is not a spell, and when undead are created it's typically via necromancy spells. I'd say there's a better chance that it is a necromancy spell, than it not being one.

[Krazzman]

I'm not sure this would work. Corpsecrafter and all the related feats state "Benefit: Each undead you raise or create with any necromancy spell gains...".

The problem is the Ritual of Crucimigration is not a Spell.

This + although I like it I doubt the DM would be OK with this and I assume getting Books thrown at me for that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This + although I like it I doubt the DM would be OK with this and I assume getting Books thrown at me for that.

It costs you a level, it should give you some perks.

[Krazzman]

It costs you a level, it should give you some perks.

The thing is from what I read about it I am unsure wether it is a spell which would be on a shaky ground + I doubt that the party in general would be OK with it.

[ddude987]

It costs you a level, it should give you some perks.

because immunity to poison, disease, and almost every other fort save in the game isn't a perk.

[Ravens_cry]

because immunity to poison, disease, and almost every other fort save in the game isn't a perk.
Immunity to mind-affecting effects is also awesome.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

because immunity to poison, disease, and almost every other fort save in the game isn't a perk.

Being subject to Turn/Rebuke Undead and all the various anti-undead spells is the price you pay for that stuff. Warforged get the same immunities and don't have any level adjustment or cost you a character level at all.

[Story]

Necropolitans get a lot more immunities then Warforged. But they do have some downsides too.

[JaronK]

Being subject to Turn/Rebuke Undead and all the various anti-undead spells is the price you pay for that stuff. Warforged get the same immunities and don't have any level adjustment or cost you a character level at all.

Note that for everything you become vulnerable to (such as Command or Control Undead) you become immune to far more (Dominate Person, Dominate Monster, Charm Person, Charm Monster, etc).

JaronK

[OldTrees1]

Fell Energy Desecration (at an Altar) does not require the animation to be spell based.
Thus I would allow the non spell ritual to benefit from Fell Energy Desecration (+2hp/HD +2hp).

However since a 5th level ally is harder to obtain than a 3rd level ally, I would recommend just using normal desecration (at an Altar) for +2hp/HD

Since Corpsecrafter and Dread Necromancers do not work by RAW, I would ask your DM whether they think it would work. (remember that writing mechanical benefits from higher level allies into a backstory is usually a no-no)

I am usually a leiant DM and would allow my players to benefit from Corpsecrafter and Dread Necromancer. However I also say no to backstory mechanical benefits from higher level allies and necropolitian has a higher xp cost the later you wait (due to the level loss being a higher level).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fell Energy Desecration (at an Altar) does not require the animation to be spell based.
Thus I would allow the non spell ritual to benefit from Fell Energy Desecration (+2hp/HD +2hp).

However since a 5th level ally is harder to obtain than a 3rd level ally, I would recommend just using normal desecration (at an Altar) for +2hp/HD

Since Corpsecrafter and Dread Necromancers do not work by RAW, I would ask your DM whether they think it would work. (remember that writing mechanical benefits from higher level allies into a backstory is usually a no-no)

I am usually a leiant DM and would allow my players to benefit from Corpsecrafter and Dread Necromancer. However I also say no to backstory mechanical benefits from higher level allies and necropolitian has a higher xp cost the later you wait (due to the level loss being a higher level).

A given ritual leader turning anyone into a Necropolitan would almost certainly be considerably higher level than the party level. Furthermore, it makes perfect sense for the most qualified candidate who can create the strongest undead minions to be the ritual leader. They're likely all apprentices of the High Ritual Leader of Nocturnus, each of them aspiring to reach the same mastery over undeath. Also keep in mind that this gives the DM free reign to give any Necropolitan opponents the same benefits!

[Krazzman]

Yes, the best possible conditions should be met regardless of who actually perform the ritual.

The way I would tell the backstory is unvoluntarily turned into a Necropolitan as a testsubject for the Necromancers own Transmutation but being able to escape.

But now what class would fit to the other things? Or what base-race should I use?

[Thanatosia]

Nowhere is it stated that this ritual is not a spell, and when undead are created it's typically via necromancy spells. I'd say there's a better chance that it is a necromancy spell, than it not being one.
It's not on a spell list, you don't cast it out of a spell slot.

Not all magic is a spell, and claiming its a spell just because it doesn't say it's not a spell is utterly ridiculous. There's nothing explicitly stating that says smite evil or turn undead are not spells, that doesn't mean you can counterspell them or otherwise treat them as one.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's not on a spell list, you don't cast it out of a spell slot.

Not all magic is a spell, and claiming its a spell just because it doesn't say it's not a spell is utterly ridiculous. There's nothing explicitly stating that says smite evil or turn undead are not spells, that doesn't mean you can counterspell them or otherwise treat them as one.

It doesn't stay that it's not cast from a spell slot, it could be a special spell that's kept secret and doesn't appear on any spell lists. It could be one of these (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm) even.

I don't think he's even going to ask for those benefits apart from Desecrate to be applied, so it doesn't even matter. No need to continue discussing it here.

[OldTrees1]

It doesn't stay that it's not cast from a spell slot, it could be a special spell that's kept secret and doesn't appear on any spell lists. It could be one of these (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm) even.

I don't think he's even going to ask for those benefits apart from Desecrate to be applied, so it doesn't even matter. No need to continue discussing it here.
"It doesn't say it isn't an X" is not a valid argument for "It is an X". If it were then ____s would be _____s because the rules don't clarify that they are not. (Fill in the blanks with almost any pair of nouns)

Moving on:
Based on the criteria in the OP, we still need more suggestions for the Faith themed, T2-T4, non cheesy build.

[Alberic Strein]

Favored Soul6 / Fighter1 into Hellreaver ?

[Alberic Strein]

Of course, a cleric 7 into Hellreaver is just better.

Of course, once you reach sufficiently high spells, cleric will do everything you want, and then some. But it's way more powerful than you asked...

Just noticed that Hellreaver is not on your list of possible ressource books though... Dunno if you could convince your DM about it. If DM convincing is possible, then Bone Knight also fills your needs (at a relatively high level though, and arguing for that PrC is going to be way harder)

Or you could just go crusader and see if you can get the undead feature that lets you use your charisma as your constitution modifier, letting you be less MAD.

[Krazzman]

Ok, where can I find the different bonis given through various means for the Necropolitan?

I think we have the Fiendish Codex 1 as sourcebook but I doubt that I will be able to use it.

My current character is a going to be Eldritch Disciple Cleric 3/Warlock 1. So That isn't that problematic as spells have a failurechance (except atm due to being in the realm of dreams).

Necropolitan is a stretch already due to it being only avaible as a pdf-scan.

Also the +Cha to HP is unavailable without getting the right type of Undead from what I read, was my first idea when thinking about Necropolitan going Cha Caster.

[XmonkTad]

Immortality is easy enough: Killoren (RotW) are a favorite of mine because of their aspects. Goes quite well with Incarnate, as you change what you're doing every day.

However, for your party makeup, why not go for a Chameleon build? That's a pretty safe choice.

If your worried about overshadowing the party, bard and squire of legend-Reikhardt (CChamp) + evangelist (CDiv) could play a nice support and face. Get amplify (bard 1 SC) and be really loud.

[Alberic Strein]

@Krazzman : As you've probably already noticed, I am everything but a decent optimizer. Besides throwing ideas up in the air, and keeping the thread alive so someone way more competent than me may see it, I don't think I can do much to help.

The question I have is : How big on the spells do you want to be ? If reaching level 4 spells is really important to you (righteous might) then you want to go cleric 7, or take a PrC that advances spellcasting.

If you are more on the "bashing things" side of the scale, then Hellreaver has the survivability you want with some decent damage options.

Bone knight kicks seven kind of arses while simultaneously making the cleric dip necessary to enter it net you level 5 spells. It will do the Same for favored soul if you find a way to get turn undead.

Luckily, Sacred exorcist is a way for favored souls to get turn undead "rather" easily, which helps tremendously and is in one of your source books.

You can get a lot from dips :

Barbarian gives some nice things at level 1 (pounce) but may need a few level investment to get the most of it. It has a lot of alternate features, so you can really get what you want.

If you go the necropolitan template, then Ferocity might be the best way to go, you don't care about being sickened, and it allows you to let dex remain at 10 while still getting the best out of a full plate
If you manage to get Bone Knight as a possible PrC, it makes you immune to fatigue, which works wonders with most kind of rages. It also eventually supresses the need to go necropolitan (level 8 makes you immortal)


The classic cleric dip is still god-awesome, and really, how better can you make "strong in faith" than by going cleric ? It gives you a hellish number of spells though and may require some extensive book-fu. Again, a lot of variants, some of them should appeal to you.

Crusaders gain their power through their devotion (strong in faith), are resilient, give you a number of nice options, and can be anything but unaligned. You may dislike their maneuver system though.

Fighter dipping is still a thing I reckon. While thematically it may fill your needs less than a barbarian or a crusader, it neats you some very nice proficiencies plus a feat. The +1BAB may be needed to get into a PrC quick. Also a nice way for Favored Souls to get armor.



I'm repeating myself a lot, am I not ?

[Krazzman]

The question I have is : How big on the spells do you want to be ? If reaching level 4 spells is really important to you (righteous might) then you want to go cleric 7, or take a PrC that advances spellcasting.

The thing is because of some meteor freak accident the weave is damaged resulting in random overflowing, negating, weakening and reversal of magic in faerun.
Currently this doesn't happen due to us being involuntarily in the realm of dreams.

How big on spells... I have to put it bluntly I don't like prepared casting. Not in the slightest. I prefer spontaneousity by a very big margin but choosing stuff is the problem here.
This + utterly hating the Favoured Soul makes it a tad bit hard. That's why I wanted the PC to go into Eldritch Disciple (Current Feats: Travel Devotion, Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric, Armored Caster: Medium). Due to lucky rolls I have possibly the highest HP in the party (40). And ED would give me something to spam as well as the possibility to have options.

Furthermore something simple should be the best way. As this DM is even astoundished by a simple Summoning Druid (given that I did mistakes) with augment summoning and ashbound summoning, albeit OKing it beforehand.

This would make Incarnum or ToB quite good as we can explain it in a simple way but some multiclassed thing with 20 special abilities would be too hard to explain.

[Alberic Strein]

"Daddy, how did the weave get damaged ?"

[Faerun, 20 years ago]

Evil Cleric : "Mystra, yo momma so fat she tears the weave!"
Mystra : "Oh yeah ? Oh yeah ?! OH YEAAAAAH ?!"

"..."

"Daddy ?"

"...Meteor freak accident."


Back to the subject, maybe some duskbladery would solve a bit of your issues, then

Edit : Scratch that, wrong PrC in mind.

So, second level divine spells... And NOT prepared... And NOT favored soul...

Spirit Shaman ?

[OldTrees1]

Ok, where can I find the different bonis given through various means for the Necropolitan?

Also the +Cha to HP is unavailable without getting the right type of Undead from what I read, was my first idea when thinking about Necropolitan going Cha Caster.

Descecrate [Spell]: Srd/Player's Handbook
Fell Energy Spell [Metamagic Feat]: Dragon Compendium #1
Corpsecrafter feats: Libris Mortis
Dread Necromancer 8th level class feature: Heroes of Horror
Spellstiched template: Libris Mortis
Lifesight feat: Libris Mortis

You are correct that only certain undead get +Cha/HD to hp. Pathfinder undead get Unholy Toughness for free but in 3.5 the Dry Lich is the easiest way to get it.


You have considered Crusader.

[Alberic Strein]

At that point OP, do you still have a question or did you reach a conclusion ?

[Jack_Simth]

You are correct that only certain undead get +Cha/HD to hp. Pathfinder undead get Unholy Toughness for free
Sort of; Pathfinder Undead get "their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution(such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC)." - but they also only get d8 hit dice, rather than d12 (just an average difference of 2 hp/hd, but worth mentioning).

but in 3.5 the Dry Lich is the easiest way to get it.
Yes... but your options to get there, and the effects of it, is somewhat debatable.

Some will say you can take the template with some simple shenanigans; others, that taking ten levels of Walker in the Waste is the only way to get there.

Then there's the debate on whether or not you have to pay the +5 LA if you get there via Walker in the Waste....

[Krazzman]

At that point OP, do you still have a question or did you reach a conclusion ?

Actually I can't really decide between Kiloren Crusader or Necropolitan Crusader or something else...

I looked Spirit Shaman up but didn't really like it at first glance (due to having DnD night yesterday I couldn't really look it up) but will look a bit more into it.

On the other hand I really start to like incarnum. Played my Totemist yesterday and had really great fun with his set of abilities... but this would totally be trashed by a Necropolitan.