Claws with Claws

[PraxisVetli]

Do multiple claw-granting features stack?
I know some things, like the Half-Dragon Template specify "if the base creature doesn't already have one," but I'm not sure about Feral Template (SS), and I know Black Blood Cultist isn't specific.
Do they overrule, granting whichever is the highest?
Or do they stack in a GreaterMightyWallop-esque effect?
I imagine it would be the former, no?

Secondary, Monks.
How does a natural attack affect unarmed? Does a 20th lvl monk Half Dragon have machetes growing out of their hands, or do they have the option of one or the other?


Again, I assume they don't stack..
or is a Feral Goliath swordsage barbarian cultist really that cool?


edit.
same question for bites.
edit edit.
What happens with Improved Natural Attack at BBC lvl7?
should the written description be ignored and replaced with the similiar, but less general Feat of the same name in the MM?

[Blackjackg]

Multiple versions of the same natural attack don't stack, you just get the best version that you have.

Unarmed attacks are different from claw attacks. You choose which kind of attack you're making before you roll it. There is, however, a feat from Dragon Magazine (#355, I think, but don't quote me) called Beast Strike which allows you to add your claw damage to your unarmed strike damage.

[PraxisVetli]

Multiple versions of the same natural attack don't stack, you just get the best version that you have.

Unarmed attacks are different from claw attacks. You choose which kind of attack you're making before you roll it. There is, however, a feat from Dragon Magazine (#355, I think, but don't quote me) called Beast Strike which allows you to add your claw damage to your unarmed strike damage.

Alrighty, that's what I figured on that.
Thanks for the stacky feat, I'll definately look into that!

[PraxisVetli]

What about the class's lvl 7 " Improved Natural Attack?"
see editedit in OP.

[Chronos]

You can only effectively make use of one weapon per limb, anyway. If you have claws but wield a weapon in one hand, you can use the weapon and your other claw, but not weapon and both claws. Likewise if you have multiple hand-based natural weapons, like claw and slam, or the Rilkan's arm spines.

This does not interfere with unarmed strikes, because unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body. So, for instance, you could make your unarmed strikes as kicks, and add both of your claws on to that.

[Urpriest]

You can only effectively make use of one weapon per limb, anyway. If you have claws but wield a weapon in one hand, you can use the weapon and your other claw, but not weapon and both claws. Likewise if you have multiple hand-based natural weapons, like claw and slam, or the Rilkan's arm spines.

This does not interfere with unarmed strikes, because unarmed strikes can be made with any part of the body. So, for instance, you could make your unarmed strikes as kicks, and add both of your claws on to that.

I don't think you meant it that way, but I want to point out to the OP that slams are only sometimes with arms, and sometimes with the whole body instead. In general, if a creature has multiple slams it's usually because they have multiple limbs to slam with, while a single slam is more of a whole body slam. There are exceptions though, so read the description thoroughly.

[PraxisVetli]

I don't think you meant it that way, but I want to point out to the OP that slams are only sometimes with arms, and sometimes with the whole body instead. In general, if a creature has multiple slams it's usually because they have multiple limbs to slam with, while a single slam is more of a whole body slam. There are exceptions though, so read the description thoroughly.

Well, my question's been answered, but as for slams, that means a vampire's slam, for example, is a whole body tackle?

[Fax Celestis]

Not defined, actually. Slams are sort of the 'unarmed strike' of the natural attack world.

[PraxisVetli]

Not defined, actually. Slams are sort of the 'unarmed strike' of the natural attack world.

Its oddly worded, can a vamp full attack with slams?

[Fax Celestis]

Its oddly worded, can a vamp full attack with slams?

No creature can get iterative attacks with a natural weapon barring a specific class feature or feat that allows them to. Rapidstrike is generally the accepted way of acquiring iterative attacks for a natural attack. However, a vampire can make a full-attack with a manufactured weapon and add on his slam attack as a secondary natural attack (so at -5).

[PraxisVetli]

No creature can get iterative attacks with a natural weapon barring a specific class feature or feat that allows them to. Rapidstrike is generally the accepted way of acquiring iterative attacks for a natural attack. However, a vampire can make a full-attack with a manufactured weapon and add on his slam attack as a secondary natural attack (so at -5).

Is there anything stopping the generic MM vamp from FoB her slam?
-quick side, why is she elite? when the other is normal? is it just the level?-

[Fax Celestis]

Yes. Natural attacks aren't monk weapons, so you can't flurry them (exception: you could take the Unorthodox Flurry feat from Dragon 279 and apply it to your slam attack, which would allow you to flurry with your slam but not make regular iterative attacks with it, bizarrely).

The example in the book is elite because she has more than one class level.

[PraxisVetli]

Alright, thanks!
Your new person-art, btw, I dig it.

[PraxisVetli]

Multiple versions of the same natural attack don't stack, you just get the best version that you have.

I don't want to seem redundant, but something occured to me.
Black Blood Cultist proceeds as follows:

1d6 claw attack
Improved Grapple
1d4 bite
scent, a touch of DR/silver
Throat rippy CDG as move action
rend
1d8 claw, 1d6 bite
Stupidly Painful Grapple
more DR/Silver
no gotta rage anymore

Now, the earliest way I see getting into this class, given Prereqs, is at lvl 5 (8 ranks Survival {unless you've ruled where you need 8 total, not 8 ranks, then prestige at two lol}).
This means the lvl 10 ability would be at 15..
The Savage Species' "Feral" Template, however, works like thi
*Firstly, I'll mention its off of HD

1-3. Improved Grab, Darkvision 60', Fast healing 2
4-7. Pounce, Fast Healing 3
8-11. Rake, Darkvision 90, Fast Healing 4
12+ Rend, Darkviosion 120, Fast Healing 5
ON TOP OF AT LVL 1

Claw for 1d8
+6 Natural Armour
+10 Land Speed
+4Str,-2Dex,+2Con,-4Int
the ability to convince dumb DMs that you HD are forever d10s (feral clerics yo)

Now, this for +1 LA, which, aside from BBC's lvl 5 and 7 abilities, would get you everything but the bite 2 lvls cheaper, and I'm sure somewhere there's a bite-attack feat.

Does it seem worth it to take the class, when the template is right there, giving almost everything sooner?
Now, the minus to Int definately blows, but the Str and Con seem worthwhile..at least are comparable to the Barbarian's Rage, one of BBC's prereqs.
I've seen a (Wild?) Elf Druid/Swordsage that took the unarmed variant and then the Feral
Template (this was before we knew unarmed and claw weren't synonymous) that was a downright Clawball 'o' Fury!
The BBC lvl's would've drastically slowed her lvl progression.
Now, this could be a case by case scenario, but I'd like to compare the two.


Pros for BBC: LETHAL bite attack, LETHAL Grapple
Cons for BBC: Consumes lvls

Pros for Feral: Lvl Cheaper in (not overly)long run, darkvision, Fast Healing, +6 to AC
Cons for Feral: no mechanicly and fluffily awesome CDG attack, minus to Int

Opinions?


Sidenote: if preferred, or if we find this to be too much a derailment, I can delete the post and start a new thread on the matter. Probably just copypasta this as new OP.

[Urpriest]

Black Blood Cultist proceeds as follows:

Throat rippy CDG as move action
rend
Stupidly Painful Grapple


The Savage Species' "Feral" Template, however, works like thi
*Firstly, I'll mention its off of RacialHD, except for the Fast Healing and Darkvision

1-3. Improved Grab, Darkvision 60', Fast healing 2
4-7. Pounce, Fast Healing 3
8-11. Rake, Darkvision 90, Fast Healing 4
12+ Rend, Darkviosion 120, Fast Healing 5
ON TOP OF AT LVL 1

Claw for 1d8
+6 Natural Armour
+10 Land Speed
+4Str,-2Dex,+2Con,-4Int
the ability to convince dumb DMs that you HD are forever d10s (feral clerics yo)



Does it seem worth it to take the class, when the template is right there, giving almost everything sooner none of the stuff that people take the class for?


FTFY

The only reason people take Black Blood Cultist is for the Savage Grapple ability. That's the whole point of the class. The rend and the CDG ability are also nice. You don't take it for the claws or bite, since those are easy to get without any LA or levels at all. Saying "why not just take Feral" misses the point of taking Black Blood Cultist in the first place (and also misses the point that you need 12 RHD for Rend, which generally means a big pile of LA as well).

[PraxisVetli]

Oooooh, RACIAL Hit Die, missed that one.
See, I was thinking the class was for the Stranglehold, because that and Amulet of Natural Attacks (I may have called it the wrong thing) would make CDGs easy.
But I definately see the use in Savage Grapple.

However, the feral template now seems...useless...

[Urpriest]

However, the feral template now seems...useless...

Don't get me wrong, it's quality stat boosts and fast healing for +1 LA, that's still handy. I wouldn't put it on most builds, but it's certainly a safe choice for a melee guy.