Making an Incarnate, without freaking out the DM

[Kazyan]

I'm playing with a new group tonight, and the DM has allowed us to use all sorts of books, in contrast to the usual policy of PHB+PHBII. The other players are a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, and Bard. I don't know much about the first two, but the Cleric is going to self-buff and whack things (I don't know if this group is familiar with CoDzilla), and the Bard is unfocused. I figured they could do with another fighter, and because I crave novelty, I rolled up an Incarnate.

The problem is that we're going to be starting at level 3, and the DM and I are concerned that the character is a bit over the top. Incarnum is good at low levels, after all. With Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and wielding my Incarnate Weapon in two hands, I get +8 to hit and 1d8+9 damage. Sounds mediocre by this board's standards*, but this appears to be a reasonably low-op group: the DM said no "broken classes", giving Warlock as the example. I haven't even brought up Vitality Belt and Astral Vambraces yet, which would give me a total of 34 HP and DR 2/magic. What do you all recommend for a low-op group's Incarnate, without making the other players feel bad, but not becoming useless at high levels due to Incarnum's poor scaling? Perhaps I'll only shape Incarnate Weapon at first, then introduce the other two preferred soulmelds after our first combat, if it's not too much.

*Dragonborn Water Orc, Whirling Frenzy Lion Spirit Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Warblade 1 with Flaws and Shock Trooper and...

[Corlindale]

Well, if the gm considers the warlock broken but is happy to allow cleric and sorceror, it's pretty hard to predict what exactly would come off as OP.

1d8+9 at level 3 is not bad by any standards, a greatsword barbarian with no special feats or anything can do way more than that at level 1. Still, if you're worried about seeming over the top at early levels, you could hold off getting Expanded Soulmeld Capacity until a bit later in the game.

Staying relevant until higher levels may be more of a challenge - your alignment is probably pretty important when you want to decide on a particular build. Incarnate's main problem is its lack of iterative attacks, I think. But the various handbooks offer some good advice for Building different alignment incarnates.

[Kazyan]

Iteratives, right. That will probably be dealt with via a Skillful weapon. At later levels, +1 Skillful Greater Soulbound and begging the Cleric for Greater Magic Weapon should help with damage output.

I chose Good because it fit with the character's backstory, and dealing with an implode-a-party is not fun.

[Big Fau]

If he freaks out over Warlocks, you'd best stay away from Dissolving Spittle. He'd likely have a cow. Which is a shame, since it would be your best offense...

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, if the gm considers the warlock broken but is happy to allow cleric and sorceror, it's pretty hard to predict what exactly would come off as OP.

QFT

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the DM isn't too familiar with incarnum. My usual advice is to not play any character that the DM doesn't understand well enough. The results are too unpredictable.

[Urpriest]

Well, as the above poster suggests, start by comparing yourself to a low-OP barbarian. Generic Half-Orc Barbarian spends most of his time with say 18 Str, 14 Con. He'd have +7 to hit with his greataxe, and deal 1d12+6 damage. So you're a bit better off, but he beats you in a rage. Meanwhile, he has 31 hit points on average, so again you're beating him with Vitality Belt, and again he beats you in a rage.

I think you'd probably be ok with those two elements, but leave off the Astral Vambraces. DR at low levels makes low-OP folks squirm.

[Kazyan]

If he freaks out over Warlocks, you'd best stay away from Dissolving Spittle. He'd likely have a cow. Which is a shame, since it would be your best offense...

When mentioning Warlocks, there was the "if built right" qualifier, but I'll avoid that one.


QFT

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the DM isn't too familiar with incarnum. My usual advice is to not play any character that the DM doesn't understand well enough. The results are too unpredictable.

Yeah, I had to explain incarnum to the DM. They sort of acknowledged that they'd get weirdness just by allowing a bunch of books, though, so I'll take it slow. Keep essentia and soulmelds where they are until people get comfortable with what I'm doing, then slowly show that I can move stuff around.


Well, as the above poster suggests, start by comparing yourself to a low-OP barbarian. Generic Half-Orc Barbarian spends most of his time with say 18 Str, 14 Con. He'd have +7 to hit with his greataxe, and deal 1d12+6 damage. So you're a bit better off, but he beats you in a rage. Meanwhile, he has 31 hit points on average, so again you're beating him with Vitality Belt, and again he beats you in a rage.

I think you'd probably be ok with those two elements, but leave off the Astral Vambraces. DR at low levels makes low-OP folks squirm.

Good analysis. I'll replace Astral Vambraces with a Soulspark Familiar or something.

[Red Fel]

Part of avoiding DM breakdown will be not only how your character is built, but how it plays.

It's quite common for an extremely powerful class (such as Druid, Druid, or Druid) to be played reasonably, even a bit reserved, in order to prevent it from overshadowing the rest of the party. You can tone down your actions without necessarily paring back your power level. Instead of being the first one to confront an obstacle and say "Wait, I have a soulmeld shaped for this," let the party handle matters. If they ask you for help, provide it, obviously, but don't jump out with easy solutions. If the DM sees you constantly showing off your cool powers, you're more likely to feel the sting of the nerf bat.

Once the DM sees that whatever power your character has is being used wisely, and is predictable, he can build appropriate challenges, and will be more comfortable with your op level.

... and that's when you break out Strongheart Vest and Astral Vambraces and...

[Fouredged Sword]

I agree that you could trade away the vembrances if you wanted too, but I would take something skillish in their place. Thieves gloves or something to add some more skillmonkery to the party would be good. You sound like hitting things with your sword is fine for combat, so consider branching out and spending some of your daily melds on non-combat stuff. This will give you more stuff to do more of the time and decrease your focus in one area to prevent you from seeming overpowered.

[Bloodgruve]

With Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and wielding my Incarnate Weapon in two hands, I get +8 to hit and 1d8+9 damage.

Can you wield Incarnate Weapons two handed?

[Kazyan]

Can you wield Incarnate Weapons two handed?

Nothing suggests otherwise.

[Waker]

While Astral Vambraces are nifty keen, a Low-Op party might get bothered by what can be very good DR at a low level. Since you are going with a focus on physical combat, maybe consider something like Bluesteel Bracers or go with the skill route and take the Thieves Gloves.
You might also consider taking some levels in a martial class like Fighter, Barbarian, Knight etc. As you have noted, Incarnum tends to shine brightest at low levels. Also if you are planning on being the "tank" for the party, you could aim for the Ironsoul Forgemaster, which progresses Incarnum, gives better BAB and several nice abilities, most notably the ability to make magical equipment.

[Big Fau]

Can you wield Incarnate Weapons two handed?

They are considered one-handed weapons, and you've always been able to two-hand those.

[Kazyan]

While Astral Vambraces are nifty keen, a Low-Op party might get bothered by what can be very good DR at a low level. Since you are going with a focus on physical combat, maybe consider something like Bluesteel Bracers or go with the skill route and take the Thieves Gloves.
You might also consider taking some levels in a martial class like Fighter, Barbarian, Knight etc. As you have noted, Incarnum tends to shine brightest at low levels. Also if you are planning on being the "tank" for the party, you could aim for the Ironsoul Forgemaster, which progresses Incarnum, gives better BAB and several nice abilities, most notably the ability to make magical equipment.

Thieves Gloves has two recommendations now. I do have a good Dexterity, so, hey, probably.

Ironsoul Forgemaster is a no-go because I'm locked in as Human instead of Dwarf. (Azurin, like many other nonstandard races, do not exist in this campaign.)

[Fouredged Sword]

A few levels of stoneblessed would fix the dwarf prereq. You can count as a dwarf fairly easily.

[Big Fau]

Thieves Gloves has two recommendations now. I do have a good Dexterity, so, hey, probably.

Ironsoul Forgemaster is a no-go because I'm locked in as Human instead of Dwarf. (Azurin, like many other nonstandard races, do not exist in this campaign.)

As with many race/alignment-restricted Prcs, ISFM has a very helpful adaptation section:


The key benefits of this prestige class are the ability to shape soulmelds and the connection the character has to the weapons and armor that he crafts. While the ironsoul forgemaster is a natural fit for a dwarf character, you could change (or drop) the racial and alignment requirements to make the prestige class available to a variety of other characters. For example, you could make the ironsoul forgemaster neutral or evil in alignment and redesign the bolzral alurdar as a secretive clan of duergar smiths who provide magic weapons to a variety of evil creatures. You could make the prestige class specific to elves and use it to create a high order of elf smiths. Or you could reduce the reliance on personally crafted items and fit the prestige class to any incarnate who wants to improve his skills at melee combat.

There you go, WotC-approved raceless ISFM adaptation. Granted this takes the DM's permission to do, but it's still an option.

[Fouredged Sword]

Stoneblessed is actualy a great class for an incarnate. You say you are incarnate 3? Well if you go Fighter 1 / Stonblessed 3 / Ironsoul forgemaster X you can definitely do well. You get heavy armor prof, weapon profs, +2 con, and can make magic arms and armor. Use the fighter feat for power attack and switch to a soulbound greatsword. It turns you into a nicely tanky character with decent DR, good energy resistances, and an attack that can stun targets.

Your 20 level build would look something like

Incarnate 3 / Fighter 1 / Stoneblessed 3 / Ironsoul forgemaster 10 / Dwarf Paragon 3

You become a very tough high con character who beats his oponents into the ground. In higher OP I would suggest a mix of charging and stacking roll with it for high DR/-.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm actually in the middle of this exact issue-- level 4 Incarnate in a moderate-to-low-op party. It turns out that binding Lightning Gauntlets and adding 4d6 lightning damage to your attacks is frowned upon.

My recommendation would be to hold off on Expanded Capacity until ~6, and not shape too many combat melds. Incarnate Weapon is probably OK, but don't shape it, Lightning Gauntlets, and Mantle of Flame.

[Harrow]

I'm actually in the middle of this exact issue-- level 4 Incarnate in a moderate-to-low-op party. It turns out that binding Lightning Gauntlets and adding 4d6 lightning damage to your attacks is frowned upon.

My recommendation would be to hold off on Expanded Capacity until ~6, and not shape too many combat melds. Incarnate Weapon is probably OK, but don't shape it, Lightning Gauntlets, and Mantle of Flame.

"Adding"? Lightning Gauntlets gives you a once per turn standard action touch attack. It doesn't stack on to other attacks.

[lunar2]

"Adding"? Lightning Gauntlets gives you a once per turn standard action touch attack. It doesn't stack on to other attacks.

however, you can deliver a touch attack via an unarmed strike or natural weapon, iirc. so below BAB 6/1, that's just straight up adding damage to your normal attack.

[Urpriest]

however, you can deliver a touch attack via an unarmed strike or natural weapon, iirc. so below BAB 6/1, that's just straight up adding damage to your normal attack.

Not just that, Lightning Gauntlets has a bind that lets you add the damage to any attack (still 1/turn).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not just that, Lightning Gauntlets has a bind that lets you add the damage to any attack (still 1/turn).
Not so hot at higher levels, but when no-one has iterative attacks...

[Bloodgruve]

They are considered one-handed weapons, and you've always been able to two-hand those.

It's amazing what you can learn after playing a game so long.. Not sure why I made that assumption. Looks like someone needs to reread Core..

Thanks

Blood~

[Kazyan]

The problem with Stoneblessed is that, as I have found during the most excellent first session, this DM does not skimp on fluff. Stoneblessed has a heavy fluff requirement. I also doubt he would be open to an adaptation from Ironsoul Forgemaster, as he frowns on optimization. Finally, I have few skill points to work with; even the few crunchy prereqs for Stoneblessed would devour my skill points for, like, 6 levels. (Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int/Wis/Cha 8. It was Point Buy and I wanted to do one thing well.) The Dwarf Paragon build seems solid, but it's probably not going to work with this DM's playstyle.

The DM seems to really like my character in terms of fluff and RP, but the party is impressed and the DM is reserved about dealing a minimum of 10 damage per hit.

[Fouredged Sword]

Then play the way you want to, and point out that the rogue and the barbarian are both doing the same totals for damage at your level, if note more, and your bab is still lower.

Rogue - 1d4+2 +2d6 = average 10-12ish
Barbarian - 1d12 + 6 = average 12ish (not even raging)

If we wanted a not overpowerd real game comparison, try a barbarian with an enchanted ax and a strength boosting item (+2), and lets say 16 base strength.

16 strength becomes 18 strength with +2 enhancement from an item. Add +4 from rage for 24. That is +7, times 1.5 for two handing means +11 damage to the ax. A +1 ax adds 1 more, so +12 damage.

Then he has 1d12 base damage, so +6 average damage, total 18 damage a swing.

The stock human barbarian is dealing near 2x your damage at level 2.