quick question about lifting weight.

[Deca4531]

So my party is in a sticky situation. after entering an abondoned mine to look for a missing child a heave rain began to flood the mine. they are in the lower levels and must take a lift to get back to the top level and avoid drowning. to rais the lift using a Capstan (a wheel with poles you rotate) you must either pass a DC 25 Str check or have enough people to reach a combined 25 Str score.

heres the tricky part, the lift is now under water. about 200 cubic feet of water is weighing down the lift (12,400 lbs). if the old requirment was 25 to lift the empty lift what will the new one be? i assume once they get it moving the DC would decrease since water will be flowing off it.

the down side is only 2 PC are still standing after the last battle, leaving 3 helpless. i would think if they try to drag their friends over to the lift they would sink and drowned. and even if they kept them afloat i cant imagen them raising the lift.

[lytokk]

Is the lift made mostly of wood as opposed to metal? I assume you're trying to help the party survive as opposed to not.

[Curmudgeon]

Unless the lift is cupping the water, so you'd need to raise the total weight (lift + water) all the way, there wouldn't be any noticeable increase in the STR required. If the lift is largely made of wood, buoyancy should decrease the STR requirement until you got it above water. All you're trying to do with the water is displace it slightly.

[lytokk]

Its not like there's going to be suction keeping the lift from moving upwards, I doubt the shaft is airtight.

[Belmikor]

Can you clarify what you mean with "combined 25 Str score"? Combined lifting ability? (In case of 25 Str meaning for example max load(/lift over head) of 800 lbs)

Also, agreeing with Curmudgeon. If the platform has holes or open sides or anything which allows the water to flow out, the water will only serve to help their case (no matter what the platform is made out of). I suggest not changing anything.
Unless you want to take into account how fast they are trying to make it move, which will end only in catgirl killfest which D&D is ill-equipped to handle.

[Deca4531]

Can you clarify what you mean with "combined 25 Str score"? Combined lifting ability? (In case of 25 Str meaning for example max load(/lift over head) of 800 lbs)

its part of an adventure book, and the instructions given for using the lift say DC 25 str check or enough people helping to = a 25 str.

and the lift is mostly metal, having been made to haul lauded down ore carts to the surface.

as for the water, there should be some drag caused by the floor of the lift if they try to lift it, or i assume there would be. im not trying to kill the party as much as give them accurate conditions (there are alternate escape methods they just havent bothered looking for them yet.)

[lytokk]

As was said, unless the floor of the lift is solid metal, and sides solid, there wouldn't be an increase in weight. Unless the designer of the system was indeed designing a deathtrap.

[Deca4531]

ok, ty for helping me figure this one out.

[Belmikor]

its part of an adventure book, and the instructions given for using the lift say DC 25 str check or enough people helping to = a 25 str.

Okay, I was just curious mostly. As long as you know or have decided how to handle that or what needs to rolled, it's irrelevant.


as for the water, there should be some drag caused by the floor of the lift if they try to lift it, or i assume there would be. im not trying to kill the party as much as give them accurate conditions (there are alternate escape methods they just havent bothered looking for them yet.)
There will be, but it will be also proportional to the speed of the lift. And as long as the lift will be moving with a slow speed (which I assume it will be as it is operated by muscle power) it won't really matter much. Even heavier-than-water objects experience buoyancy and effectively become lighter underwater (if not much). For simplicity's sake, you can just cross off the drag and the buoyancy of the lift and call it even.



EDIT: Aaand I'm late

[Deca4531]

i made the assumption that the lift would be made mostly of metal, but if i assume instead it was constructed of thick wooden beams then the lift should float with the rising water. now depending on how tightly fitted the lift is to the shaft it might end up causing a kind of seal that would prevent the PCs from getting around it to even worry about trying to lift it in the first place.

i just wanna scare them a bit, there is a mechanic what will save them even if they dont find it themselves.

[Belmikor]

i made the assumption that the lift would be made mostly of metal, but if i assume instead it was constructed of thick wooden beams then the lift should float with the rising water. now depending on how tightly fitted the lift is to the shaft it might end up causing a kind of seal that would prevent the PCs from getting around it to even worry about trying to lift it in the first place.

i just wanna scare them a bit, there is a mechanic what will save them even if they dont find it themselves.

True, without any locks in the pulley system (Are there things like that? I'm not too familiar with how old mining shaft lifts work =P) a wooden lift might very well rise with the water level.
That surely would cause a nice scare for them. Maybe making them resort to hacking their way through the lift floor or something like that.

With an automatic survival mechanic existing, remember to give them a reasonable chance of surviving with their own plan (if it's at all plausible). It can be agitating to have your own plan fail, just to be saved by what might seem like 'loldeusexmachina'.

That said, happy gaming and mine expedition.

[John Longarrow]

Old school mining, the floor of the lift would be made of wood. Unless you have access to some fairly advanced metal casting, the weight of a metal base would make it too heavy to lift with normal humans while carrying a load.

Old school mining also doesn't normally have smooth sides to the shaft, so there should be a fair gap. The wooden support running up the sides will project form the walls several inches. At best, the lift would have wheels along the sides that keep it from banging into the walls.

Net effect, you should have a floor that floats, but not well. The wood should be hard wood (very dense) and coated to prevent rot. Toss on a lot of dirt ground in, and you get something that should be able to hold a couple hundred pounds while floating up the shaft.

Your party may need to worry about the lift getting stuck, tilting if not balanced correctly, or floating up far enough that they won't be able to climb on, but they shouldn't have to worry about getting it up. They may need to worry about getting part way up the shaft, then the rain stops, and they are stuck half way up without a good way to climb out.

[holywhippet]

Is the capstan underwater as well? If so, I'd ask for constitution checks to hold their breath while manipulating it. The DC would be higher than usual since they are trying to exert themselves at the same time.

Also, they could get a strength penalty as they'd have trouble gripping the ground.