Laurin's favor

[Everyl]

If my previous post was really tl;dr for David Argall, then I think I now understand why so many of us find discussing things with him to be frustrating.

Let me rephrase my argument to be shorter, then.

Two of Sabine's options are:
1) Tell the truth, but not mention that she's a demon.
2) Feed information to spies and diplomats who will then pass it along to the decision-makers of other countries, avoiding magical interrogation entirely.

If you want to nitpick based on details, please refer to my other post. This version is intended to satisfy those who believe that shorter plans are inherently better than well-described ones.

[The Pink Ninja]

Wild guess:

The real Laurin was killed years ago and replaced with a shapechanger of some sort with levels in Psion.

[David Argall]

Two of Sabine's options are:
1) Tell the truth, but not mention that she's a demon.
She does not really have this option. Everything about her says "demon, lying treacherous type to boot." So she must accept a great deal of mistrust, which make her plan dicey, or she must lie in some way, leaving her vulnerable to discovery, and even worse distrust.



2) Feed information to spies and diplomats who will then pass it along to the decision-makers of other countries, avoiding magical interrogation entirely.
This requires that somebody, probably several somebodies, not under her control behave as machines. Not impossible, but still the chances of something going wrong are major.

Of course there is also a very basic and major flaw in that this whole idea has nearly nothing to do with the party. A zillion things are happening every day that are not worthy of strips in this comic. When we may not even see Tarquin again in any serious way, the relevance of any attack on him is going to be low. Even when Tarquin stays in the plot, Sabine will need to attack him in a way that interacts with the party [Maybe rescues the party after Tarquin captures them, or tries to kill Elan on the theory that hurts Tarquin, the sort of theory Mama Dragon used {which is a reason this will not be used. Our writer is reluctant to reuse stuff.}]

[Math_Mage]

Wild guess:

The real Laurin was killed years ago and replaced with a shapechanger of some sort with levels in Psion.
Ring of True Seeing sees through most shapechange effects.

[orrion]

She does not really have this option. Everything about her says "demon, lying treacherous type to boot." So she must accept a great deal of mistrust, which make her plan dicey, or she must lie in some way, leaving her vulnerable to discovery, and even worse distrust.


This requires that somebody, probably several somebodies, not under her control behave as machines. Not impossible, but still the chances of something going wrong are major.

Of course there is also a very basic and major flaw in that this whole idea has nearly nothing to do with the party. A zillion things are happening every day that are not worthy of strips in this comic. When we may not even see Tarquin again in any serious way, the relevance of any attack on him is going to be low. Even when Tarquin stays in the plot, Sabine will need to attack him in a way that interacts with the party [Maybe rescues the party after Tarquin captures them, or tries to kill Elan on the theory that hurts Tarquin, the sort of theory Mama Dragon used {which is a reason this will not be used. Our writer is reluctant to reuse stuff.}]

You know, now I kinda want Sabine's story written out. Originally I didn't give a flying crap and I myself have stated that this has nothing to do with the party and therefore extremely unlikely to happen, but now I want the Giant to do it just to prove your extremely narrow interpretations of how Sabine is screwed before she starts wrong.

[Brisingry]

She does not really have this option. Everything about her says "demon, lying treacherous type to boot." So she must accept a great deal of mistrust, which make her plan dicey, or she must lie in some way, leaving her vulnerable to discovery, and even worse distrust.

Because Roy here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0134.html) immediately identifies the blacksmith-Sabine as a demon. Oh, and a treacherous liar to boot! I'm surprised he didn't just smite her down on the spot, the aura of evil and demonic identity about her is so obvious!

Ahem.

Sabine's a demon with shapeshifting abilities. Unless one has some form of identification of such, (granted, Empire of Blood seems to have one,) she can appear as harmless and innocent as could be. Furthermore, she can easily worm out of magical lie detection with a couple well-phrased half-truths. (Oh, I got this information from a general's son awhile back, for example.)

To attempt to get this back on topic... It seems like my idea that Laurin was after Tarquin's dagger was as far off as could be. The embarrassing details of a certain memory, on the other hand, is starting to sound like a great idea. Utter defeat with the entire audience laughing at and not with him? Sounds good enough for me.

[mimhoff]

Utter defeat with the entire audience laughing at and not with him? Sounds good enough for me.

Why would Laurin want that?

I need to make sure I don't ever owe anyone in this thread a favour. I could end up dead, married, or humiliated.

[Everyl]

She does not really have this option. Everything about her says "demon, lying treacherous type to boot." So she must accept a great deal of mistrust, which make her plan dicey, or she must lie in some way, leaving her vulnerable to discovery, and even worse distrust.

Really? Is that why her deceptions have such a high success rate? Off the top of my head, she has successfully impersonated a blacksmith and two different uniformed police/military organizations without getting caught. This, despite the fact that she knows nothing of smithing, the fact that Tarquin's army has genre-savvy instructions and anti-doppleganger policies, and the fact that the Cliffport Police Department appears to be a pretty close-knit bunch who would probably notice an unfamiliar face suddenly appearing in their ranks. If there's anything about her that inherently announces that she's a demon to those who meet her, then the standard of perceptiveness she's trying to overcome in this setting is so low that it doesn't matter.



This requires that somebody, probably several somebodies, not under her control behave as machines. Not impossible, but still the chances of something going wrong are major.


Or it requires a basic understanding of how nations collect information on one another using diplomats and/or spies, plus a little persistence in case some people don't behave quite as hoped. Nearly every diplomat on the Western Continent is a potential tool in this scheme, and there are countless ways to feed information to them without exposing herself to scrutiny. Example: Impersonate a guard or household staff member at one of the Imperial capitals, and talk within earshot of foreign diplomats about how strange it was to see a confidante of a different Emperor/Empress talking with a local advisor. Any diplomats who investigate the rumor or report it back to their home country will damage Tarquin's secrecy. All she needs to do is get enough people asking the right questions instead of accepting the Empires at face value.

For a far-more-convoluted example that actually worked in real life, I recommend reading up on Operation Mincemeat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat). That was a misinformation campaign, meaning that it required a lot more resources than revealing the truth would, but it's a good example of how information can be fed from one nation to another in highly legitimate-looking ways.



Of course there is also a very basic and major flaw in that this whole idea has nearly nothing to do with the party. A zillion things are happening every day that are not worthy of strips in this comic. When we may not even see Tarquin again in any serious way, the relevance of any attack on him is going to be low. Even when Tarquin stays in the plot, Sabine will need to attack him in a way that interacts with the party [Maybe rescues the party after Tarquin captures them, or tries to kill Elan on the theory that hurts Tarquin, the sort of theory Mama Dragon used {which is a reason this will not be used. Our writer is reluctant to reuse stuff.}]

Whether it's important enough to the plot to be shown isn't something we can know, as readers, before the story is finished. I can think of a few ways it could be made relevant, but they would be unfounded speculation. Rich has an established history of surprising his readers, so finding a way to make events on the Western Continent relevant to the main plot is not out of the question. It wouldn't even take much space in-comic - I'm pretty sure a well-written cutaway panel could establish what Sabine is doing, and the effects could be shown in a later comic when they become relevant.

And besides, I've only been arguing that it's something she could do, not that it's what she will do. Can she effectively work to bring down the Three Empires scheme as part of a revenge plot against Tarquin? It looks like it to me. Will she? Heck if I know, I'm just a reader.

[Kish]

Why would Laurin want that?

I need to make sure I don't ever owe anyone in this thread a favour. I could end up dead, married, or humiliated.
If you ever owe me a favor, I will certainly go for all three!

(In that order: First dead, then married, then humiliated.)

[Brisingry]

Why would Laurin want that?

I think the reasons were stated elsewhere in the thread, but it's something that can definitely be cleared within a day, something not Business-related, and something that I'd probably do with a favor from the Team Leader (and if I could read minds, but meh :smalltongue: ) I mean, come on, who doesn't like hearing stories about one terrible misadventure their boss had? And if they adamantly refuse to tell you about that story, how much more would you want to hear it?

It's probably not right, but it stands out as the most plausible to me right now. Granted, this is after 5 hours of Abstract algebra homework, so "plausible" might not actually mean actually logically sound now.

[David Argall]

Off the top of my head, she has successfully impersonated a blacksmith and two different uniformed police/military organizations without getting caught.
Playing a blacksmith for Roy was rather an easy task. Roy had no idea he had an active enemy and he was presented with what was a highly believeable idea [at least from his view.] Nor is she going against difficult targets in the other cases. To talk about Tarquin, she has to be facing very difficult targets.



This, despite the fact that she knows nothing of smithing, the fact that Tarquin's army has genre-savvy instructions and anti-doppleganger policies, and the fact that the Cliffport Police Department appears to be a pretty close-knit bunch who would probably notice an unfamiliar face suddenly appearing in their ranks.
We can doubt that Sabine know much about smithing, but we don't know that much about her skills. Tarquin's army has genre-savvy instructions in special cases, which a gate guard is not. Nor is there in the way of gendre that the guards need to be instructed about. The anti-doppleganger policies are special time policies. They add a little danger, but normally will as useful as a turned-out light. The Cliffport cops are heavily portrayed as incompetent. [We also have to consider writer error. While the odds are good that any error would be repeated, we still have story flaw and we don't want that, consistent or not.



If there's anything about her that inherently announces that she's a demon to those who meet her, then the standard of perceptiveness she's trying to overcome in this setting is so low that it doesn't matter.
Sabine often goes around in disguised form [without wings for example.]
While there can be confusion on her exact nature, even low level commoners know she is something nasty when they see her undisguised form.



Or it requires a basic understanding of how nations collect information on one another using diplomats and/or spies, plus a little persistence in case some people don't behave quite as hoped. Nearly every diplomat on the Western Continent is a potential tool in this scheme, and there are countless ways to feed information to them without exposing herself to scrutiny. Example: Impersonate a guard or household staff member at one of the Imperial capitals, and talk within earshot of foreign diplomats about how strange it was to see a confidante of a different Emperor/Empress talking with a local advisor. Any diplomats who investigate the rumor or report it back to their home country will damage Tarquin's secrecy. All she needs to do is get enough people asking the right questions instead of accepting the Empires at face value.
More likely she would just get fired as such people are to be seen and not heard. Other problems would be that the Ambassador just doesn't listen, or is too busy to investigate. And it may well be that everybody knows team TT are friends. The text suggests there are a number of experts around who shift countries rather freely. If so, meetings among them cause no suspicion of a deep conspiracy. [All sorts of suspected plots, yes, but more likely that they are shopping for better jobs than they are all in it together.]



For a far-more-convoluted example that actually worked in real life, I recommend reading up on Operation Mincemeat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mincemeat). That was a misinformation campaign, meaning that it required a lot more resources than revealing the truth would, but it's a good example of how information can be fed from one nation to another in highly legitimate-looking ways.
Read the book. Saw the movie. Both showed several ways the scheme could have come to nothing.



And besides, I've only been arguing that it's something she could do, not that it's what she will do. Can she effectively work to bring down the Three Empires scheme as part of a revenge plot against Tarquin?
She can try of course, and something might happen. but the odds are bad. It is much more likely she will never have the chance. She is just a minion and is likely to be ordered to other work.

[137beth]

It's probably not right, but it stands out as the most plausible to me right now. Granted, this is after 5 hours of Abstract algebra homework, so "plausible" might not actually mean actually logically sound now.

As a mathematician, I feel somewhat obligated to say that everything in abstract algebra is logically sound. I think you meant to say:

so "plausible" might not actually mean what it normally means to you.

[Math_Mage]

I'm not actually interested in nitpicking the point-by-point with Argall to demonstrate the obvious, so I'll just note:

She can try of course, and something might happen. but the odds are bad.
Right, because unlikely things never happen in stories. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) :smallconfused: