PF - Discipline Talents

[Letric]

Is anyone familiar with Psionics in PF?

I have a huge doubt. My psion is a Telepath:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion/psionic-disciplines/telepathy

Each discipline gains access to two psi-like abilities that can be used as long as the psion maintains psionic focus. Discipline talents are treated as 0-level powers for all purposes (such as save DC). The manifesting time for a discipline talent is the same as if it was manifested normally, or a standard action if the discipline talent does not mimic a psionic power. These powers do not count as powers known for the psion; to manifest them normally, he must select them as his powers known normally.

And from what I've read around:
A manifester may manifest any talent that he knows without paying power points as long as he maintains psionic focus. However, if the talent has a duration longer than instantaneous, he can only have one such talent active at a time; manifesting another talent without paying power points in this manner causes the original talent to immediately expire.

His paying nothing to form a link with his party, what do you think? I think I should rule that he can only maintain this link with 1 person.

[Psyren]

Is anyone familiar with Psionics in PF?

Yo.



*snip*

His paying nothing to form a link with his party, what do you think? I think I should rule that he can only maintain this link with 1 person.

Assuming you mean the Mind Link talent, it would be with one person. From the power:


Targets: You and one other willing creature within range that has an Intelligence score of 3 or higher

Getting it to more targets than that requires augmenting it, which you cannot do with talents:


Discipline Talents
...
As long as you maintain psionic focus, you may manifest either of your chosen powers without paying a power point cost, but the power may not be augmented or affected by metapsionic feats.

[Fax Celestis]

That said, he can manifest it and pay the full PP cost to augment it enough to include the entire party, but that's basically manifesting it like a real power, not a talent.

[Psyren]

That said, he can manifest it and pay the full PP cost to augment it enough to include the entire party, but that's basically manifesting it like a real power, not a talent.

Unfortunately this isn't true in the base rules - you have to actually select the talents a second time (as powers known) to gain access to their full range of uses:


These powers do not count as powers known for the psion; to manifest them normally, he must select them as his powers known normally.

They are actually PLAs for the psion rather than powers known.

To get around this, you need to implement the Psionic Talents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/psionic-talents) variant rule introduced in PsiEx.

[Fax Celestis]

Unfortunately this isn't true in the base rules - you have to actually select the talents a second time (as powers known) to gain access to their full range of uses:



They are actually PLAs for the psion rather than powers known.

To get around this, you need to implement the Psionic Talents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/psionic-talents) variant rule introduced in PsiEx.

To be fair, I don't know of anyone who doesn't play with the talents rule.

[Psyren]

To be fair, I don't know of anyone who doesn't play with the talents rule.

Rules, actually :smallsmile: there's 4 implementations.

I would use them myself as well - but since the OP mentioned psi-like abilities I assumed he was using the base DT rule.

[Letric]

Im consufed!

PC has selected Discipline Telepathy, he gets access to Mindlink and Mindthrust.

Considering it's a talent, do we have the limitation on 1 party member?

[Psyren]

Considering it's a talent, do we have the limitation on 1 party member?

Yes. The power says you can only link with one other person, and you can't augment it for more because it's a talent.

[Letric]

Yes. The power says you can only link with one other person, and you can't augment it for more because it's a talent.

Check this out:
Choose two powers from the following list: conceal thoughts, mind link, mind thrust, telepathic lash.

As long as you maintain psionic focus, you may manifest either of your chosen powers without paying a power point cost, but the power may not be augmented or affected by metapsionic feats. The damage of mind thrust is reduced to 1d6. You may only use conceal thoughts on yourself if used as one of your discipline talents.

According to this, you're receiving POWERS, not Talents. It doesn't say you can;t cast it 3 times and affect the whole party. From what I've read they're effectively powers, not talents.

[Psyren]

Okay, so now I'm confused. Are you referring to Discipline Talents (the Psion class feature) or Psionic Talents (the variant rule?) The latter does give you powers, the former only gives you PLAs that are treated like powers.

Regardless, I see what you're trying to do - manifest it 3 times in a row, linking somebody new each time. But this won't work due to the stacking rules:


Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

In this case the "differing results" refers to who you have linked. If I have Bob and Susan in my party with a mindlink between myself and Bob, manifesting it a second time to link myself and Susan will be the same effect with a differing result on me (i.e. linking Susan instead of linking Bob again) because I am one of the targets in both cases. I already have a mindlink on myself, so activating a new one will suppress the previous one(s) in the series.

Because "You" are always one of the targets for your mindlink, the last mindlink you manifest will suppress the others that you have going. In order to have multiple mindlinks up, you must use the augment that allows you to form several bonds with one manifestation - that will mean there is only one instance of the mindlink power active on you that just happens to have multiple additional targets. (Note that the Stacking Rules are also quoted in Psionics Unleashed, pg. 58.)

And if you do mean Psionic Talents rather than Discipline Talents, you will then run afoul of the "one talent with a duration at a time rule," further preventing this.

[Letric]

Okay, so now I'm confused. Are you referring to Discipline Talents (the Psion class feature) or Psionic Talents (the variant rule?) The latter does give you powers, the former only gives you PLAs that are treated like powers.

Regardless, I see what you're trying to do - manifest it 3 times in a row, linking somebody new each time. But this won't work due to the stacking rules:



In this case the "differing results" refers to who you have linked. If I have Bob and Susan in my party with a mindlink between myself and Bob, manifesting it a second time to link myself and Susan will be the same effect with a differing result on me (i.e. linking Susan instead of linking Bob again) because I am one of the targets in both cases. I already have a mindlink on myself, so activating a new one will suppress the previous one(s) in the series.

Because "You" are always one of the targets for your mindlink, the last mindlink you manifest will suppress the others that you have going. In order to have multiple mindlinks up, you must use the augment that allows you to form several bonds with one manifestation - that will mean there is only one instance of the mindlink power active on you that just happens to have multiple additional targets. (Note that the Stacking Rules are also quoted in Psionics Unleashed, pg. 58.)

And if you do mean Psionic Talents rather than Discipline Talents, you will then run afoul of the "one talent with a duration at a time rule," further preventing this.

Excellent. Was referring to Discipline Talents, I wasn't sure, but it seemed way too op to have so many mindlink for free between the party.
I mean, this player is my former DM, so I can't go and say, na, you can't have this, I needed some sort of explanation.
It was adding it up for me, now I'll check the rules and show him this.

Thanks!