[3.5] Bear PC

[WesleyVos]

My wife has started to show some interest in playing D&D, and she wants me to run her through a solo game. The character she wants to play is an intelligent (for an animal) black bear. Fluffing it to fit mechanics, I've decided it will be the cub (or grandcub, perhaps) of Awakened black bears. In order to compensate for her being new, I've decided to ignore the extra 2 HD that awakening an animal usually adds; instead, she'll be able to add class levels to the existing 3 HD of a standard black bear, plus adjust ability scores based on its standard stats, adjusting Intelligence to 8 instead of 2. The result is racial ability modifiers of +8, +2, +4, -2, +2, -4.

That said, I'm not sure where to go with the build from here. She's much more interested in the roleplaying aspects than the mechanics, so she doesn't want to build the character herself, or at least she doesn't want to do a lot of the number crunching required for the build. So she's asked me to come up with the numbers to fit the character.

As of now, the bear is not supposed to be super-intelligent, and it's not a spellcaster. She's playing the character as a very naive bear, not prone to aggression.

Here is the challenge for the Playground:

1) Recommend an LA for the bear. Savage Species is little help here.
2) Help me build a reasonable character for her to play. I can fluff most anything mechanics-wise, but note the above restrictions - no spellcasting. ECL should be between 4 and 6.
3) Just for kicks, build the most broken, insane thing you can with a 3HD awakened black bear using the above ability score adjustments. I just want to see what the Playground will come up with. Tippyverse is acceptable for this build.

EDIT: Note - please do not suggest alternate systems. 3.5 is what I know, and me trying to learn a new system while trying to teach her as well would not be good.

[Big Fau]

There's a prestige class for this (Bear Warrior).

[WesleyVos]

I know of the class. Thing is, she wants to start out as a bear. An honest to goodness bear, with bear parents. She's actually come up with a full awakened bear society. Pretty creatively, too. So while the class might help a normal character turn into a bear, it's not quite what she's looking for.

[Kennisiou]

If you want no spellcasting (and I assume no maneuvers as well) on a class that an awakened bear would be good at... I think fighter or fighter/rogue multiclass are you best bets. If you think she'd be okay with minimal spellcasting then consider ranger. She wouldn't have spells until ranger level 4 and its nature-themed skillset makes sense for a bear.

That said... how are you ruling weapons with this character? If the bear can't wield weapons then it may be better for her to play a monk so that she can make unarmed attacks then follow it with a full set of natural attacks at base attack bonus -5 (or -2 if she takes multiattack). If she wields any weapons she'll lose out on the claw attacks for those hands, so a monk may even actually be appropriate here.

[Forrestfire]

http://i.imgur.com/BtvWas5.jpg

More on-topic, I'd honestly just run the character without LA. If it's a solo game, there's no rest of the party to worry about comparing to, and having no opposable thumbs is a pretty bad drawback.

For classes, Warblade or other initiator levels might fit, as would Barbarian (not prone to aggression unless seriously provoked fits the rage ability fairly well imho). A Bearbarian going into Bear Warrior and Warshaper to turn into a bigger, scarier bear would be hilarious, but might come too close to magic for her tastes. Lion Totem Barbarian, refluffed to fit the beariness, is nice to give pounce for a melee character.

Don't forget to add multiattack to the character so the bite attack is useful.


For 3), start with a Bear 3/Paladin 1 and say "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu..." :smallamused:

[Fax Celestis]

I'm going to recommend Ranger, probably with the Fangshields substitution levels (Champions of Valor), which will replace her combat style with natural-attack improving stuff and give her a slightly better animal companion (which can maybe be her little brother or something). Also the Champion of the Wild ACF in CCham, which will take off the spellcasting and replace it with bonus feats.

[lytokk]

what about barBEARian? Oh wait, not prone to aggression. I just really wanted to make the pun.

Fighter I think would work out well for bear stats. Perhaps monk?

[Deca4531]

http://i.imgur.com/BtvWas5.jpg

More on-topic, I'd honestly just run the character without LA. If it's a solo game, there's no rest of the party to worry about comparing to, and having no opposable thumbs is a pretty bad drawback.

For classes, Warblade or other initiator levels might fit, as would Barbarian (not prone to aggression unless seriously provoked fits the rage ability fairly well imho). A Bearbarian going into Bear Warrior and Warshaper to turn into a bigger, scarier bear would be hilarious, but might come too close to magic for her tastes. Lion Totem Barbarian, refluffed to fit the beariness, is nice to give pounce for a melee character.

Don't forget to add multiattack to the character so the bite attack is useful.


For 3), start with a Bear 3/Paladin 1 and say "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu..." :smallamused:

or go Bear Warrior and instead turn into a human warrior just for fun.

[lytokk]

a reverse were-bear who turns into a human in the light of a fullmoon?

[WesleyVos]

That said... how are you ruling weapons with this character? If the bear can't wield weapons then it may be better for her to play a monk so that she can make unarmed attacks then follow it with a full set of natural attacks at base attack bonus -5 (or -2 if she takes multiattack). If she wields any weapons she'll lose out on the claw attacks for those hands, so a monk may even actually be appropriate here.

I haven't decided yet. I know I'm going to let her purchase a novelty item that allows her bear to write (she wants him to keep a journal), so I may do the same for something that allows it to use weapons.

I hadn't thought about the Fangshield substitution levels. That might work well.

I think a bear with Bear Warrior might be a little much for her, this being pretty much her first real interest in the game, and the first character that she's really invested time into developing...well, the character part at least, not the mechanics.

And the bear --> human and were-bear --> human...yeah, those made me chuckle. Well done. Don't think she'd go for that, though...

[Deca4531]

there are a pair of magic gloves in Savage Spieces that give a creature hands and fingers. it would let her write and hold a weapon.

[WesleyVos]

I hadn't caught those before. Still, those are a bit more expensive than what I had in mind. 42,000 gp is a lot. I think I'll stick with the fluff item that lets her hold a pen. No weapons, then, I guess, at least until much later.

[Thrair]

You don't even have to ignore the +2 HD of the spell. iirc, a younger bear, perhaps a cub, would have lower HD, yes? I'm used to Pathfinder, granted, but 3.5's fairly similar.

So if the bears in this society are awakened at a young age, they wouldn't have extra bear racial HD, they'd start getting class HD instead. At least NPC classes. Although the thought of a Level 1 Bear Commoner amuses me. I wonder how it would do against a housecat? :smallyuk:

*EDIT* To clarify, I mean you would still have the +2 HD of the spell, but the Bear HD would be lower to compensate. So instead of 5 HD of Bear, it'd be 3 HD of Bear, 2 of which come from the spell.

Side note: Does 3.5 have animal barding? Because that will be a must.

[WesleyVos]

That...would be interesting.

I think, if the society ever comes into play in the game, that I'll be ruling that the awakened bears can take levels in either a class or racial HD, up to the max. That makes the housecat fight a little more reasonable. An awakened bear is still a bear.

And the fluff is that the offspring of two awakened bears is also awakened. The offspring of an awakened bear/non-awakened bear has a 50% chance of being awakened itself.

[Thrair]

Oh... and I apologize for this.... but....


Daaaaa Bears!

[Deca4531]

And the fluff is that the offspring of two awakened bears is also awakened. The offspring of an awakened bear/non-awakened bear has a 50% chance of being awakened itself.

well in that case i dont see a need for any extra HD from the spell since it was never cast on her. i would simply run it as an option between bear lvs or class levels. it wouldnt be heard to make a leveling system for the bears racial bonusus.

[lytokk]

I'm pretty sure there's barding in 3.5 I know my paladins clawfoot mount had it. Something like pick the armor bonus (full plate, half plate, whichever) and add 25% of the cost for making something not fitting a humanoid form.

will she be part of the bear cavalry? Black Bears riding grizzly bears riding polar bears into battle?

[Kazyan]

For the journal-writing item, how about a Hand of the Mage, since that already exists? It would let the bear manipulate pencils and other very small items as well. Cheap enough for Level 3 WBL, and probably well worth the investment when you don't have opposable thumbs.

[WesleyVos]

Could work, though it might be a bit too magicky for her tastes.

And yes, barding is definitely an option.

[Urpriest]

If she's not interested in learning the mechanics, she probably won't be interested in leveling up herself, right?

In that case, I'd make sure to not make her a caster, and instead of using XP just level her up when you feel she can handle new abilities. That way, you don't have to come up with a level adjustment: she doesn't have to be balanced against her allies because it's a solo game, and you can match the enemies to her actual capabilities rather than to CR.

In terms of actual classes, I'd go for something straightforward. If you'd like to get her to start thinking tactically and doing interesting things in combat, make her a Warblade. If you want her to be able to fight fast and get combat over with when it comes up without thinking too hard, go for Barbarian.

Edit: I should point out that even though you said you don't want to use another system, if it's just based on a lack of desire to learn a new system you can just run it free-form. If she has no interest in the mechanics and all you're trying to do is give her an "rpg experience", then complete free-form will allow you to focus on the RP and non-D&D-related story that she cares about.

[Macrovore]

Oh... and I apologize for this.... but....


Daaaaa Bears!

You don't have to apologize for anything, son. The PC was awakened by the power of Ditka.

[WesleyVos]

If she's not interested in learning the mechanics, she probably won't be interested in leveling up herself, right?

Edit: I should point out that even though you said you don't want to use another system, if it's just based on a lack of desire to learn a new system you can just run it free-form. If she has no interest in the mechanics and all you're trying to do is give her an "rpg experience", then complete free-form will allow you to focus on the RP and non-D&D-related story that she cares about.

She does want to learn the mechanics, but she doesn't want to start the character from scratch. She'll want to level it up herself, I think, as she becomes more interested in the game.

And she does want to learn the mechanics. She's just not that interested in creating a character from scratch. At least mechanically.

[Urpriest]

She does want to learn the mechanics, but she doesn't want to start the character from scratch. She'll want to level it up herself, I think, as she becomes more interested in the game.

And she does want to learn the mechanics. She's just not that interested in creating a character from scratch. At least mechanically.

I'd still advise going for a "you level up when I say so" system. XP isn't a big part of learning the game, the only reason to include it would be if you were intentionally sticking close to RAW, at which point you wouldn't be letting her play something with no level adjustment.

In general, this isn't that great of a starting character, because it requires houserules to function at all and doesn't interact well with the setting at large, plus it invokes rules that most players don't need to start out knowing, like natural weapons and RHD.

That said, for "let's learn the mechanics" purposes, Warblade really is probably your best bet. Pick up the right maneuvers and she can learn pretty much any aspect of the game, and she can pick whatever looks cool on level-up and not weaken her character.

[Thurbane]

Modified black bear:
Medium Magical Beast
Move 40 ft
+2 natural AC
Natural weapons (2 claws, 1 bite)
SQ: low-light vision, scent
Str +8, Dex +2, Con +4, Int -2, Wis +2, Cha -4
Major drawbacks: 3 racial hit dice; cannot effectively wield equipment, without a magical item such as the Gloves of Man

...I'd eyeball that at around LA +1. Net +10 to ability scores is significant enough not to be ignored, IMHO, especially when combined with scent, natural armor and above average movement rate. Weighed up against the major disadvantages, I'd still say worth +1 LA.

It depends whether you want comparable LA to similar creatures by WotC rule of measure (such as the Krenshar which has much worse ability mods, and is ruled at LA +2), or you want to waive LA altogether because any sort of LA (coupled with RHD, especially) hoses players badly.

[Telonius]

Magic Items might be a minor issue. Will she have access to all of the usual slots? Just as importantly, is she going to actually be using those slots? (You say she's very RP-focused; if her bear would find it annoying to wear human-ish things, that might be a problem). Other equipment questions - will she be wielding any manufactured weapons, or is this going to be strictly claw/claw/bite?

If she's going for a more "Bear Necessities" sort of character (:smallbiggrin:), this might be the very rare case where Vow of Poverty makes some sense.

Otherwise, Fighter, Ranger, or some combination of the two would be perfectly all right. Personally I'd hold off on Warblade until she's had a taste of what the "classic" classes can do (and an idea of why certain changes were needed). But if you think she's ready, go for it.

[WesleyVos]

I'd still advise going for a "you level up when I say so" system. XP isn't a big part of learning the game, the only reason to include it would be if you were intentionally sticking close to RAW, at which point you wouldn't be letting her play something with no level adjustment.

In general, this isn't that great of a starting character, because it requires houserules to function at all and doesn't interact well with the setting at large, plus it invokes rules that most players don't need to start out knowing, like natural weapons and RHD.

It will definitely be a level-when-I-say system. And I know it's not the best starter character, but I told her to come up with a concept, and this is what she came up with. Telling her she can't play her bear would probably be worse than whatever hoops I have to jump through to make it playable. Actually, no probably about it. It would be worse. She's already gotten really attached to the character.


...I'd eyeball that at around LA +1. Net +10 to ability scores is significant enough not to be ignored, IMHO, especially when combined with scent, natural armor and above average movement rate. Weighed up against the major disadvantages, I'd still say worth +1 LA.

It depends whether you want comparable LA to similar creatures by WotC rule of measure (such as the Krenshar which has much worse ability mods, and is ruled at LA +2), or you want to waive LA altogether because any sort of LA (coupled with RHD, especially) hoses players badly.

I had initially pegged it at LA +1 or +2, but I wasn't sure. And depending on how I run the encounters against her, the LA shouldn't be a problem. But it's a good introduction to racial hit die and Level Adjustment, which she'll need if she ever actually gets into the game and making her own characters.


Magic Items might be a minor issue. Will she have access to all of the usual slots? Just as importantly, is she going to actually be using those slots? (You say she's very RP-focused; if her bear would find it annoying to wear human-ish things, that might be a problem). Other equipment questions - will she be wielding any manufactured weapons, or is this going to be strictly claw/claw/bite?

If she's going for a more "Bear Necessities" sort of character (), this might be the very rare case where Vow of Poverty makes some sense.

Otherwise, Fighter, Ranger, or some combination of the two would be perfectly all right. Personally I'd hold off on Warblade until she's had a taste of what the "classic" classes can do (and an idea of why certain changes were needed). But if you think she's ready, go for it.

Yeah, I think Warblade might be a bit much for her at first. She's still trying to figure out what all the skills do, and how attacking works, and which dice to roll. Adding maneuvers and maneuver mechanics would, I think, overwhelm her.

I don't think VoP would work, since she does want possessions. She's already got the bear carrying a backpack full of cooking equipment (for making berry pies) as well as other things.

I haven't decided how to play the magic items issue yet. As for weapons, she's mostly going to be claws and bite, though there may come a time where she wields some sort of manufactured weapon. Probably she'll just stick with the claw/claw/bite, though.

[Telonius]

Ridiculous build: Warlock. Not exactly a "caster," and certainly not overpowered. But give it Fell Flight, and you have a flying bear with frickin' laser beams shooting out of its eyes.

[Blackjackg]

Some excellent suggestions already, but what about the non-spellcasting ranger from Complete Warrior? It's got some bear-appropriate abilities, and some others that your wife might well enjoy.

[WesleyVos]

If I go ranger, it will either be the non-spellcasting version from CW or the Champion of the Wild ACF.

And the Warlock bear would be hilarious. I might have to include that as a villain in the game.

[lytokk]

Wesley, I think you meant "making BEARY pies"

puns are still funny right?

[Thurbane]

Assuming Magical Beast, 3 RHD would get you the following:

3d10 hp
BAB +3
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1
2 feats.
No weapon or armor proficiencies.
Skills point equal to 6 * (2 + Int modifier); racial skills are Climb, Listen, Spot, Swim; +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.

...nowhere near as good as class levels, but not too horrible for a melee type.

[Astral Avenger]

Assuming Magical Beast, 3 RHD would get you the following:

3d10 hp
BAB +3
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1
2 feats.
No weapon or armor proficiencies.
Skills point equal to 6 * (2 + Int modifier); racial skills are Climb, Listen, Spot, Swim; +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.

...nowhere near as good as class levels, but not too horrible for a melee type.

Wait, how is survival no on that skill list, or at the minimum Survival(Fishing), its a bear after all

[Thurbane]

Well I was literally going by the skilsl a Black Bear has in the SRD. I don't think it would be at all unreasonable for a DM to add Survival to that list. :smallwink:

[nedz]

Reasonable character: Rogue or Scout with Craven (Non aggressive). This should give lots of skill points for exploring the game.

Ridiculous character: DFA — fire breathing dragonbear.
Though a caster with access to Alterself could be funny; also DMM Cleric.

Item: Mylund's Spoon — for plenty of porridge :smallbiggrin: