OotS vs T & M & L

[Dante2001]

Ladies and gentleman! On one side of the desert we have:

-Almost unwounded halfling with a mortal prophecy on his head and epic low CON
-Approximately mid hp high level warrior with magical sword
-Fully healed, wand carrying and flying Rogue
-An unknown gender elven wizard who burnt 3/4 of his spell slots (correct me here if I'm wrong). This wizard may randomly drop and be useless for about 20 minutes at any time (not probable right now, tho)
-High level vampire dwarf cleric who is one dispel away from burning to ashes and has no spells but the ones that are on his staff
-Fully healed without healing spells bard and high use of illusions
-Allosaurus, a (dangerous) cat and a cunning familiar

VS

-Tarquin, high level warrior, father of the aforementioned bard, has just Krillin'ed his own son
-Miron, High level wizard with full health and all spell slots
-Laurin, High level psion with full health and 9/10 spell slots
-Triceratops

Bets? Anyone dying on this battle?

Anyone else thinks Elan will cast an illusion of his own mother to his father just for the laughs? Or maybe that T's rogue is invisibly riding the triceratops?

[Jackson Spades]

Hmm...Well, I've got this idea that at least one of the Order is going to die. My personal wacky theory is that Elan dies in the ensuing battle, and that stops Tarquin from continuing the fight. His motivation for fighting is to get Elan into of the role of "Hero" by removing Roy, but with Elan gone he doesn't really have a reason to kill Roy. Durkon, if I recall rightly, has enough Diamond Dust for one resurrection, so Elan won't be gone for long.

Belkar may die here as well. If another Order member dies as well (like, say, Elan), then Belkar will take second priority to the other dead member, and will not be rezzed. That would take care of the Oracle's prophecy.

...Or maybe I'm completely wrong, and everyone lives.


Or maybe that T's rogue is invisibly riding the triceratops?

Sadly, I think she's busy looking after the Empire of Sweat, but that would be AWESOME.:smallcool:

[Trillium]

We haven't seen V use high-level spells yet. One Prismatic Spray may well take care of dino and possible one or even both casters.
Disintegrate would be very effective too.

Durkon has his abjuration in his staff. As well as a ton of other spells.

Z's wands are yet too be used, but they gotta be used (Checkov's gun).
Ah, and a successful shot from Haley's minty bow may freeze any member of TT solid.

[Gil-Galad II]

Hmm...Well, I've got this idea that at least one of the Order is going to die. My personal wacky theory is that Elan dies in the ensuing battle, and that stops Tarquin from continuing the fight. His motivation for fighting is to get Elan into of the role of "Hero" by removing Roy, but with Elan gone he doesn't really have a reason to kill Roy. Durkon, if I recall rightly, has enough Diamond Dust for one resurrection, so Elan won't be gone for long.

...Y'know, that's the most plausible theory I've read yet explaining Elan's plan. It explain's why Elan wanted to explain it to Durkon...and why The Giant showed us that Durkon has enough Diamond Dust left for a single resurrection. Heck, maybe Durkon will kill Elan himself...I'm convinced until it's proven completely wrong, though!

[Sir_Leorik]

Number one: Psions don't use spell slots in 3.X. They use Power Points, and Laurin's been burning through quite a bit. I'm going out on a limb and assuming Wormhole is equivalent to a 9th level Psion Power (or Nomad Power; that's a distinction from the 3.5 Psionics rules you probably don't know about). She's probably a few high level Powers away from being tapped out, and if she tries pulling a Psteve, she'll be easy pickings for Haley to take out.

Number two: We don't know Miron's class. He could be a Wizard, Sorcerer or a Warlock. All we know if that he's probably got a near full complement of spells for the day.

Number three: V has not cast 3/4 of her spell slots today. At most she's cast half; more likely she's cast 1/4. She has a Ring of Wizardry, and is 15th level. She has plenty of juice for this fight.

Regarding Tarquin: he's got a Ring of Regeneration, a magic axe and who knows what else.

Regarding Belkar: what makes you think he's in danger? He's going to be using the Allosaurus to make attacks, while he and Mister Scruffy keep safe.

Elan's Bardic Music is less effective, since Durkon can not benefit from it. (Vampires are immune to Mind Affecting effects.)

Depending on the duration of V's Fly spells, Haley may or may not be able to Fly during the upcoming battle. But she gets Sneak Attack anyway since it will be a new battle, with a new Initiative roll. She should target Miron, and then start readying actions to disrupt his spells.

This is also a nice chance for Roy to show off his cool new sword move on Miron. :smalltongue:

[multilis]

Mr. Scruffy will win once again while fooling others into thinking he isn't important.

[Onyavar]

...Y'know, that's the most plausible theory I've read yet explaining Elan's plan. It explain's why Elan wanted to explain it to Durkon...and why The Giant showed us that Durkon has enough Diamond Dust left for a single resurrection. Heck, maybe Durkon will kill Elan himself...I'm convinced until it's proven completely wrong, though!

Resurrection is cheap. Tarquin knows that, and won't stop his hunt for Roy if Elan dies.

[King of Nowhere]

seeing as how tarquin was defeating the oots all by himself when durkon still had all his spells, roy was full hp and belkar was not drained, and he's now accompanied by two people as strong as him or little less, the fight seems highly unbalanced against the oots.
Of course that's pretty standard for literature. there would be little fun in reading a book where the heroes are stronger from the beginning. (ok, someone may point out superman, and someone else discuss that his limitation is constituted by him moral code, and so on, but please let's not go down that line)

[Kornaki]

Resurrection is cheap. Tarquin knows that, and won't stop his hunt for Roy if Elan dies.

Kill Elan. Inform Tarquin that if Elan is raised by anybody who does not have the same alignment as Durkon, he will refuse all future raises. Tarquin thinks "wtf is Durkon's alignment now that he's a vampire? Nuts, I can't take this risk" and lets the Order go so that Durkon can raise Elan at a later date.

It's bold, and obviously isn't the plan that Elan came up with originally, but it might be a solid way to get out of this specific fight, and if written well has the bonus of riffing on the forum being confused about Durkon's alignment.

[Sniffnoy]

This seems like a good time to remind people of the death pool thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272967) for those who want to place their bets there...

[Porthos]

seeing as how tarquin was defeating the oots all by himself when durkon still had all his spells, roy was full hp and belkar was not drained, and he's now accompanied by two people as strong as him or little less, the fight seems highly unbalanced against the oots.
Of course that's pretty standard for literature. there would be little fun in reading a book where the heroes are stronger from the beginning. (ok, someone may point out superman, and someone else discuss that his limitation is constituted by him moral code, and so on, but please let's not go down that line)

It's a different tactical situation though. Don't forget, Tarquin got his ass handed to him inside the pyramid when Roy was able to use the surroundings to his advantage. Plus V wasn't around, either.

I'm not going to guess TPK quite yet, personally. :smallwink:

[Muenster Man]

Regarding Tarquin: he's got a Ring of Regeneration, a magic axe and who knows what else.

Unless he had a spare lying around, Tarquin's totally awesome axe was probably lost to him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html) and is likely sitting somewhere in Haley's loot bag now. :smallsmile:


This is also a nice chance for Roy to show off his cool new sword move on Miron. :smalltongue:

I would like for this to happen very much.

[Anteros]

Resurrection is cheap. Tarquin knows that, and won't stop his hunt for Roy if Elan dies.

That's true, but it doesn't really mesh with Tarquin's current plan to kill Roy...

[Mike Havran]

Unless he had a spare lying around, Tarquin's totally awesome axe was probably lost to him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html) and is likely sitting somewhere in Haley's loot bag now. :smallsmile:
I don't think he didn't pack any nifty back-up weapon when he was preparing his army during the few hours he left the pyramid area.

[Pesimismrocks]

That's true, but it doesn't really mesh with Tarquin's current plan to kill Roy...

I'd imagine the execution was just a scene for his son, and if he kills Roy he would either take the body or have Miron disintegrate it.

[Matt620]

It's blithely stacked in Tarquin's favor, even if Wormhole has significant power use by Laurin, Miron's still got all of his juice, and casters are ridiculously overpowered.

But, narratively speaking, Tarquin's got a lot to worry about. He is a villain, and OOtS are heroes.

[veti]

Remember, Laurin has said she's not taking part in this fight.

If her partners look like losing, she might rethink that. But if I were her, if humanly possible, I'd only go as far as "getting them out of trouble", without actually "defeating the enemy".

[pendell]

Some other things which may be important:

Tarquin will not kill Elan. That will hamper TT to some extent, since they can't just drop the moon on them or whatever.

Roy has that anti-spellcaster feat. If it works anything like he did in his dream, he can neutralize Miron. I don't think a psionic requires verbal, somatic components so it won't work on Laurin. But he has the ability to neutralize Miron.

Tarquin is a defensive fighter with many regeneration magic items. He will be difficult to take down.

So ... how DOES OOTS credibly pull a win out of this?

1) Haley looted a bunch of wands from Zzdtri. Might that be useful?

2) We saw Durkon on an extraplanar adventure. Does he have plane shift and can Durkula cast it? If yes, then if Tarquin misses his saving throw he can adventure in the land of ranch dressing for awhile.

To my mind, Tarquin is the key to the battle. Neither Miron nor Laurin have any real desire to be there. If Tarquin can be incapacitated or otherwise placated, they will leave ... unless the manner of incapacitating Tarquin enrages them.

That will be extremely difficult to do.

Can the order take Elan hostage and bargain for their escape with Elan's life?

Can the dinosaur swallow Tarquin? He'll cut his way out, but can the order escape while he is doing so?



My personal wacky theory is that Elan dies in the ensuing battle, and that stops Tarquin from continuing the fight.


Tarquin has already stated he will hold Roy and company personally responsible for Elan's safety. If Elan dies Tarquin is likely to kill them out of revenge.Also, if the body is not disintegrated he will want to recover it for rezzing. Which will split the party.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kalmegil]

Remember, Laurin has said she's not taking part in this fight.

If her partners look like losing, she might rethink that. But if I were her, if humanly possible, I'd only go as far as "getting them out of trouble", without actually "defeating the enemy".

Laurin said that before she decided to let Tarquin owe her a favor. She's going to fight.

[Sloanzilla]

Hayley's dad shows up and sacrifices himself to save her life, taunting Tarky when he dies about stealing the show.

[Cerussite]

Fights between spellcasters are often decided by who goes first. V going first could very well down any of the three with a lucky prismatic spray, or she could neutralize Tarquin with a Forcecage (she hasn't cast any level 7 spells yet that I can remember).

Likewise, Laurin is very dangerous even after her expenditure of PP, and V might not last a round if she decides to disintegrate her, and with her, the chances of a party with no healing and no caster competing against one and a half fully recharged casters and a frontliner that's stronger than theirs are very low (even though he's not using his best weapon anymore).

Depending on what V snatched from Z's corpse, she could also do quite a bit of damage (see Nale with his Enervation wand against Durkon)... Durkon has very little he can do without spells save for straight melee,

All in all, if this were a real game I'd say Tarquin's victory is the most probable outcome. Of course, I don't see Roy dying a second time in this strip, so I'm pretty sure some improbable scenario will happen where the Order will be able to win.

[nocker]

Being conservative and placing Laurin at 17th level, she's one Psionic Dominate (+2 PPs to affect beasts, +8PP for 4 additional targets) away from getting Belkar, the Allosaur and possibly even Halley and Roy temporarily on their side. Incidentally, that dominate will have the save of a 9th level spell.

Tarquin is very good at not dying when the order sans V attacked him. And he was jobbing back then. Now he's out for blood.

No idea of what Miron is and how he contributes on a fight (we're probably one strip away from finding this out), but if he's "merely" a 17th level warlock he can drop disabling effects over the Order, for the whole day if needed.

As for the Order...

Durkon paradoxically is a fragiler being now. Undeads get abysmal Fortitude saves, which means he's one Disintegrate or Polymorph Any Object away from becoming dust or a nice trinket for decorating Malack's memorial. And this is ignoring what a mere dispel magic would do with him now. Anyway, his greatest strength is at "15th level cleric", not at "vampire", and right now he's totally out of spells.

Judging by the dream sequence, Roy's vaulted spellcaster killing feat is a published feat that doesn't let people cast defensively around him. That's actually kind of awesome on the rare situation where he has a spellcaster cornered in a 5' corridor. For the other times, biting one AoO for moving away from him and then killing or dominating him from a safe distance (not to mention tumbling and/or flying away) renders his feat moot.

Halley actually looks decent. A flying high level rogue can drop a scary amount of damage on mostly everything if she wins initiative. If Tarquin's Trio commit the mistake of gating in under 30', we're talking "killing Laurin on the first round" scary. And if one of her wands is of, say, Blink or Improved Invisibility, she could pull a reverse massacre there. If not, she's still painful, but not outright deadly.

Belkar is a mystery. His build shouldn't even work, and my guess is that he convinced the DM that "everything" is a valid favored enemy, and took it at any chance he had. In this case, he's kind of dangerous to have at melee range, but right now he's drained and ABOUT TO DIE(TM).

Elan takes a non-assertive stance on most fights. This is kind of the whole point that got them in this particular mess, but he can be counted to not be very effective.

V can always get extremely lucky with a Prismatic Spray, but other than that, the extremely lopsided fight is extremely lopsided. The Order needs some miracle help, pronto.

[Warren Dew]

I don't think Tarquin's purpose is to defeat the order directly. I think he's going to try to use the triceratops to herd the allosaur back to his army, where it can finish being destroyed finish Roy off.

[Sir_Leorik]

Unless he had a spare lying around, Tarquin's totally awesome axe was probably lost to him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html) and is likely sitting somewhere in Haley's loot bag now. :smallsmile:



I don't think he didn't pack any nifty back-up weapon when he was preparing his army during the few hours he left the pyramid area.

At the very least, Tarquin is armed with a whip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html) and a dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html). Plus he may have had a chance to grab another greataxe in Bleedingham.


Roy has that anti-spellcaster feat. If it works anything like he did in his dream, he can neutralize Miron. I don't think a psionic requires verbal, somatic components so it won't work on Laurin. But he has the ability to neutralize Miron.

Psions don't use Verbal, Somatic or Material components, but their powers still provoke attacks of opportunity and need to be Manifested with the Concentration skill. So I'd say the feat should work on a Psion trying to Manifest Defensively.


Tarquin is a defensive fighter with many regeneration magic items. He will be difficult to take down.

The first time Tarquin fought the Order, he was taking their measure. The second was on Roy's terms. Now, he's mad, and he's out for Roy's blood. I predict that Tarquin will not fight defensively this time. No jokes, no puns, just full attacks.


Being conservative and placing Laurin at 17th level, she's one Psionic Dominate (+2 PPs to affect beasts, +8PP for 4 additional targets) away from getting Belkar, the Allosaur and possibly even Halley and Roy temporarily on their side. Incidentally, that dominate will have the save of a 9th level spell.

Reread the stats for Psionic Dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm). Laurin has to be a Telepath Psion to pull any of that off.


Judging by the dream sequence, Roy's vaulted vaunted spellcaster killing feat is a published feat that doesn't let people cast defensively around him.

Vaunted, not vaulted. Roy doesn't use the feat to jump over obstacles. :smalltongue:


Halley actually looks decent.

Not really, his corpse has been moldering for a while. Oh wait you meant Haley! I'd say she looks a hell of a lot more than decent, and Hank clearly agrees with me (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html). :smallwink:

[Harbinger]

Tarquin is a Fighter. He's Tier 5. And he owned the entire Order (admittedly minus V) by himself. Laurin is a Psion. She's Tier 2. She can kill Durkon, Belkar, and probably V in one hit with Disintegrate if she wants to. Miron could, assuming he's a Wizard or Sorcerer, do the same. The Order isn't going to try to fight these guys, they're going to try to run or get saved by a plot twist.

[jere7my]

Tarquin is a Fighter. He's Tier 5. And he owned the entire Order (admittedly minus V) by himself. Laurin is a Psion. She's Tier 2. She can kill Durkon, Belkar, and probably V in one hit with Disintegrate if she wants to. Miron could, assuming he's a Wizard or Sorcerer, do the same. The Order isn't going to try to fight these guys, they're going to try to run or get saved by a plot twist.

You are assuming that Rich gives a bug's nipples about tiers.

[Harbinger]

You are assuming that Rich gives a bug's nipples about tiers.

He clearly does though, considering he has to write around them all the time. And you can't really just ignore one character being objectively more powerful than another, either.

[jere7my]

He clearly does though, considering he has to write around them all the time. And you can't really just ignore one character being objectively more powerful than another, either.

Batman can defeat Superman, given the right circumstances. This is a story, not a game. Tiers don't matter.

[nocker]

Reread the stats for Psionic Dominate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatePsionic.htm). Laurin has to be a Telepath Psion to pull any of that off.
Does this mean there are psions out there that don't take Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) at least a couple of times? A lot of awesome powers lie on restricted lists, so you set a feat on fire to get them. And are we just assuming Laurin is a nomad? She did three psionic things so far, two from psychoportation, one from telepathy. So, barring a comic where her speciality is outright spelled, I think this is still open, no?


Vaunted, not vaulted. Roy doesn't use the feat to jump over obstacles. :smalltongue:

Not really, his corpse has been moldering for a while. Oh wait you meant Haley! I'd say she looks a hell of a lot more than decent, and Hank clearly agrees with me (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html). :smallwink:
Well, yeah. Writing while sleepy on a non-native tongue can do things like this.

[androkguz]

Being conservative and placing Laurin at 17th level, she's one Psionic Dominate (+2 PPs to affect beasts, +8PP for 4 additional targets) away from getting Belkar, the Allosaur and possibly even Halley and Roy temporarily on their side. Incidentally, that dominate will have the save of a 9th level spell.
Interesting point. However, the Order of the Stick is now quite more resistant to this kind of mind control given that they have Elan, who can play Song of Freedom.

Tarquin is very good at not dying when the order sans V attacked him. And he was jobbing back then. Now he's out for blood.

:vaarsuvius: Forcecage

No idea of what Miron is and how he contributes on a fight (we're probably one strip away from finding this out), but if he's "merely" a 17th level warlock he can drop disabling effects over the Order, for the whole day if needed.

See Roy below


As for the Order...

Durkon paradoxically is a fragiler being now. Undeads get abysmal Fortitude saves, which means he's one Disintegrate or Polymorph Any Object away from becoming dust or a nice trinket for decorating Malack's memorial. And this is ignoring what a mere dispel magic would do with him now. Anyway, his greatest strength is at "15th level cleric", not at "vampire", and right now he's totally out of spells.

You are vastly underestimating the power of 2 drained levels per hit. Specially against casters or high levels in general. Anyway, he can tank and make OAs and his Fortitude save is base on his Cleric level, not on being undead (he will lose his constitution bonus, though)


Judging by the dream sequence, Roy's vaulted spellcaster killing feat is a published feat that doesn't let people cast defensively around him. That's actually kind of awesome on the rare situation where he has a spellcaster cornered in a 5' corridor. For the other times, biting one AoO for moving away from him and then killing or dominating him from a safe distance (not to mention tumbling and/or flying away) renders his feat moot.

With an opportunity attack, you can grapple or trip the escaping caster in order to prevent him from escaping. Not that many casters should be able to survive Roy's power-attack-boosted greatsword attack more than twice (first after Roy charges, then during an OA).


Halley actually looks decent. A flying high level rogue can drop a scary amount of damage on mostly everything if she wins initiative. If Tarquin's Trio commit the mistake of gating in under 30', we're talking "killing Laurin on the first round" scary. And if one of her wands is of, say, Blink or Improved Invisibility, she could pull a reverse massacre there. If not, she's still painful, but not outright deadly.

Belkar is a mystery. His build shouldn't even work, and my guess is that he convinced the DM that "everything" is a valid favored enemy, and took it at any chance he had. In this case, he's kind of dangerous to have at melee range, but right now he's drained and ABOUT TO DIE(TM).

Elan takes a non-assertive stance on most fights. This is kind of the whole point that got them in this particular mess, but he can be counted to not be very effective.

V can always get extremely lucky with a Prismatic Spray, but other than that, the extremely lopsided fight is extremely lopsided. The Order needs some miracle help, pronto.

I agree on the rest except on the idea that the battle is so lopsided

[Obscure Blade]

One possibility that has occurred to me; L & M may somehow find out what's really going on. Namely, that the OOTS is trying to save the world, the same world that they are living in, and that Tarquin is banking on his absolute belief that Elan will be able to save the world without his allies (because anything else means acknowledging that Tarquin isn't the central figure of the story). At that point they may back down out of sheer self interest.

[Everyl]

Does this mean there are psions out there that don't take Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) at least a couple of times? A lot of awesome powers lie on restricted lists, so you set a feat on fire to get them. And are we just assuming Laurin is a nomad? She did three psionic things so far, two from psychoportation, one from telepathy. So, barring a comic where her speciality is outright spelled, I think this is still open, no?

Laurin's Wormhole power is probably level 9 on the Nomad list, like its closest SRD equivalent, Psionic Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportationCirclePsionic.htm). That means that Laurin is either a Nomad, or has Epic Expanded Knowldge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicExpandedKnowledge). Possible, but maybe not the most likely first purchase for a low-Epic character.

As for a Nomad taking Psionic Dominate, that's definitely possible. It depends entirely on her build, though, and it's not at all clear that she's the type to dedicate that much of her build to mind control. I won't deny that Psionic Dominate is absolutely terrifying in the hands of a Psion with the levels to augment it sufficiently, but one-shot dominating all non-undead members of the Order sounds like the product of akind of optimization that is rarely seen in OOtS.

And for everyone who thinks that Tarquin and company will effortlessly win due to spellcasting advantage, it's important to remember that most of Laurin and Miron's options for quickly defeating V work just as well in reverse. V has been known to prepare Disintegrate rather generously, and can probably do in the neighborhood of 30d6 damage to a low-fort-save caster who hasn't pre-cast any defensive spells quite easily. There's not a lot of dramatic interest in watching the casters have a disintegrate quick-draw battle, though, so I think that's unlikely to happen.

[Sir_Leorik]

Tarquin is a Fighter. He's Tier 5. And he owned the entire Order (admittedly minus V) by himself. Laurin is a Psion. She's Tier 2. She can kill Durkon, Belkar, and probably V in one hit with Disintegrate if she wants to. Miron could, assuming he's a Wizard or Sorcerer, do the same. The Order isn't going to try to fight these guys, they're going to try to run or get saved by a plot twist.


You are assuming that Rich gives a bug's nipples about tiers.


He clearly does though, considering he has to write around them all the time. And you can't really just ignore one character being objectively more powerful than another, either.

Tiers don't really matter that much, but they do matter. But in this case the Order has one high Tier character, several mid-tier characters, an Allosaurus, a Vampire Cleric and Mr. Scruffy, versus two high tier NPCs, a mid tier NPC and a Triceratops. The odds are not in TT's favor, even though they're a few levels higher than the OotS. Basically the CR of Tarquin, Laurin, Miron and the Triceratops is much lower than the ECL of the OotS.


Batman can defeat Superman, given the right circumstances. This is a story, not a game. Tiers don't matter.

Batman can only beat Superman if Superman keeps to his pledge not to kill and Batman breaks his. Or Batman uses that modified Red Kryptonite from "Tower of Babel" that makes Superman's skin translucent, preventing him from absorbing sunlight. Or the fight takes place on Zuhr-En-Ahrr. But otherwise, Superman just flies away and says "Nice try!"

[rodneyAnonymous]

Interesting point. However, the Order of the Stick is now quite more resistant to this kind of mind control given that they have Elan, who can play Song of Freedom.

No, Song of Freedom requires one minute of uninterrupted concentration, it can't be used in combat.

[jere7my]

Batman can only beat Superman if Superman keeps to his pledge not to kill and Batman breaks his.

"I want you to remember, Clark…in all the years to come…in your most private moments…I want you to remember…my hand at your throat…I want you to remember...the one man who beat you…"

If you haven't read the source for that line, you should.

In the hands of a sufficiently talented author, Batman could defeat Superman. Or Superman could defeat Batman. Authors get to choose the circumstances, the breaks, the "die rolls", the special equipment. Batman can always defeat Superman if the author wants him to, and if it's a good author he can do so in a highly satisfying manner.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Batman can only beat Superman if Superman keeps to his pledge not to kill and Batman breaks his. Or Batman uses that modified Red Kryptonite from "Tower of Babel" that makes Superman's skin translucent, preventing him from absorbing sunlight. Or the fight takes place on Zuhr-En-Ahrr. But otherwise, Superman just flies away and says "Nice try!"

Batman has in fact defeated Superman in DC canon. It involved powered armor and none of those conditions except that Superman didn't kill anyone.

[Bird]

"I want you to remember, Clark…in all the years to come…in your most private moments…I want you to remember…my hand at your throat…I want you to remember...the one man who beat you…"

If you haven't read the source for that line, you should.

In the hands of a sufficiently talented author, Batman could defeat Superman. Or Superman could defeat Batman. Authors get to choose the circumstances, the breaks, the "die rolls", the special equipment. Batman can always defeat Superman if the author wants him to, and if it's a good author he can do so in a highly satisfying manner.
That requires (including in Frank Miller's case) for Superman to act like an idiot, forget most of his powers, forget that he moves so fast that Bruce is a statue, etc. Or else just let Bruce beat him.

Yes, it is possible for writers to portray Bruce defeating Cal in a "satisfying" way, but this almost always involves storytelling legerdemain. The audience has to forget what Cal is actually capable of, and focus on the characterization, emotion, art, etc.

Mind, superhero stories run on this kind of legerdemain. Most stories with The Flash (or Superman, or any other character who moves at even a significant fraction of light speed) make no sense when you consider the character's capabilities. Why didn't Wally solve all the problems in the first picosecond of the issue? Because the plot required him not to.

The cross that the Giant has to bear is that much of his audience has played D&D, is exquisitely aware of what high-level characters are capable of, and will have their suspension of disbelief broken if the characters don't behave up to those capabilities. At a certain point, I think most Superman readers just accept that the stories don't make any sense and move on -- or else they just don't think too much about it in the first place. Many OotS readers are a lot more more persnickety than that.

Of course, superhero readers are persnickety in their own ways. They just sort of have to accept that high-tier characters are rarely depicted in a way that makes sense given their power sets.

And, FWIW, OotS is infinitely more internally consistent than most superhero stories. Being tied to D&D just creates a lot of issues for certain members of the audience, it all.

[Taelas]

Tier is not strictly speaking about power disparities, anyway, but versatility. While a wizard is probably more deadly overall than a fighter, that is not the reason he's Tier 1 and the fighter is Tier 5.

Tactics and strategy have more of a say in whom wins a battle than to which tier their classes belong.

[jere7my]

The cross that the Giant has to bear is that much of his audience has played D&D, is exquisitely aware of what high-level characters are capable of, and will have their suspension of disbelief broken if the characters don't behave up to those capabilities.

All that means is that Rich has different constraints than Frank Miller did. He is by no means constrained to make his battles follow the likely dice rolls, and he's said so in this forum. If he wants Elminster to be defeated by a pair of ducks, within the framework of the D&D rules, he'll work out a way to do it. If he wants the Order to beat Tarquin, he'll work out a way to do it—or, rather, he won't let them get into a situation in which he has no way to do it. Possibly he'll use a smokestick.

I'm not going to quibble about the plausibilty of the Superman-Batman fight in The Dark Knight Returns, because I don't have to. It's one of the most famous and well-regarded stories in the DC canon, and has been for decades. It's widely viewed as a masterpiece, which demonstrates that it's possible for Batman to beat Superman in a way that most readers find satisfying. That's not because superhero comic readers are somehow less picky than OotS readers—comic book fans are the poster children for fanboy entitlement. If Rich can make any battle in his comic have half the impact of that one, it'll be a great accomplishment.

But I'm happy to check back in after comic 935 or so. At that point, we can discuss whether the "tiers" of the various participants in the coming battle had more effect on the outcome than, say, Elan's secret plan, or some stratagem Roy knocks up, or Tarquin's Achilles heel (whatever it may turn out to be).

[ti'esar]

Honestly, I'm not sure anyone can make confident statements about the way that fight scene is viewed anymore, as, to a large extent, Frank Miller's oeuvre in general has undergone whatever the opposite of "vindication by history" is. (I'm reasonably certain the Giant has gone on the record as disliking him, for instance).

Not that this really has anything to do with the topic at hand, since I think everyone agrees on the underlying premise: a sufficiently skilled writer can have Batman beat Superman and make it satisfying, and the same is likely true for the upcoming fight between Team Tarquin and the OOTS.

[Bird]

All that means is that Rich has different constraints than Frank Miller did. He is by no means constrained to make his battles follow the likely dice rolls, and he's said so in this forum. If he wants Elminster to be defeated by a pair of ducks, within the framework of the D&D rules, he'll work out a way to do it. If he wants the Order to beat Tarquin, he'll work out a way to do it—or, rather, he won't let them get into a situation in which he has no way to do it. Possibly he'll use a smokestick.
Yes. The Giant is talented like that. He knows what he's doing.

That's essentially what I'm saying. That a subset of OotS readers are especially picky with respect to one specific constraint. I focused on that specific constraint because it's the topic of discussion.


That's not because superhero comic readers are somehow less picky than OotS readers—comic book fans are the poster children for fanboy entitlement.
Different groups of fans are picky in their own ways.


If Rich can make any battle in his comic have half the impact of that one, it'll be a great accomplishment.
Yes. Most folks do find that scene very satisfying. (I'm one of them, by and large.)

FWIW, if The Giant wrote the equivalent of TDKR fight in OotS in terms of the way that respective power levels are handled, a lot of folks would cry foul, is all I'm saying. Despite TDKR fight being really cool.

The Giant isn't going to write the equivalent of that scene. Based on past history, it's clear that the Giant handles the relative power levels of his characters differently than Frank Miller did in DKR.

Note: I wouldn't be surprised if, back when The Dark Knight Falls first hit the stands, a lot of folks did kvetch about the plausibility of the Clark/Bruce fight. I don't really know. However, the lack of Internet means that we wouldn't hear as much about it. In addition, the fact that we're looking back at the work decades later means that technical details about power levels will be much less a part of the conversation than the overall artistic merits of the work.


I think everyone agrees on the underlying premise: a sufficiently skilled writer can have Batman beat Superman and make it satisfying, and the same is likely true for the upcoming fight between Team Tarquin and the OOTS.
Yes.

[Sir_Leorik]

"I want you to remember, Clark…in all the years to come…in your most private moments…I want you to remember…my hand at your throat…I want you to remember...the one man who beat you…"

If you haven't read the source for that line, you should.

In the hands of a sufficiently talented author, Batman could defeat Superman. Or Superman could defeat Batman. Authors get to choose the circumstances, the breaks, the "die rolls", the special equipment. Batman can always defeat Superman if the author wants him to, and if it's a good author he can do so in a highly satisfying manner.

I no longer consider Frank Miller to be a talented writer. :smallmad:


Batman has in fact defeated Superman in DC canon. It involved powered armor and none of those conditions except that Superman didn't kill anyone.

That fight is no longer in canon. It hasn't been in canon since 1986, when Crisis on Infinite Earths wrapped up. The Batman and Superman who appeared in The Dark Knight Returns were the Silver Age Batman and Superman, in a distant future. (A distant future that contradicts the end to "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", by the way.) It never happened canonically, because of the interference of the Anti-Monitor, and the efforts of the Silver Age Flash to save reality. It never happened because of the interference of Extant and a Parallax-possessed Hal Jordan, and the efforts of other heroes to stop him. It never happened because Superboy Prime punched reality so hard you felt it while reading Infinite Crisis. It never happened because Darkseid's Omega Effect sent Bruce Wayne on a trip through time much more awesome than anything Frank Miller's written in twenty years. It never happened because of something with the Barry Allen Flash coming back to life, thus invalidating his sacrifice in Crisis, punching Professor Zoom, and history going kablooey and being put back together wrong. (I think. I really don't understand the logic behind the Nu52.)

Would it have happened anyway in the future in a different way? Who knows. Was it a good story? Yes, but Frank Miller told a much better story in "Batman: Year One", IMO.


That requires (including in Frank Miller's case) for Superman to act like an idiot, forget most of his powers, forget that he moves so fast that Bruce is a statue, etc. Or else just let Bruce beat him.

Or be interested in tricking Batman into thinking he's beaten him. Or Batman and Superman want to trick someone else into thinking Batman's beaten Superman. (The Silver Age could be weird. :smalltongue:)


Yes, it is possible for writers to portray Bruce defeating Cal in a "satisfying" way, but this almost always involves storytelling legerdemain. The audience has to forget what Cal is actually capable of, and focus on the characterization, emotion, art, etc.

Kal. With a "K". "Kay". Not "Cee".


Mind, superhero stories run on this kind of legerdemain. Most stories with The Flash (or Superman, or any other character who moves at even a significant fraction of light speed) make no sense when you consider the character's capabilities. Why didn't Wally solve all the problems in the first picosecond of the issue? Because the plot required him not to.

Wally has a pretty short attention span; however, once he's figured something out he's good to go. See the issue of "JLA" where Wally figures out that the "Evil Queen" the JLA are fighting gains her power from imagination, and can only be trapped in a book. So Wally runs home, grabs a $20 bill, gives Linda a peck on the cheek, runs over to a bookstore... and buys a copy of the United States Tax Code for 1999. He than races back to the fight and swaps the "Evil Faerie Tale" book for the Tax Code, all in the time it took him to wait for the cashier to ring him up. One Evil Queen trapped for eternity, with tax regulations, offshore expenses, family deductions and an index, to keep her company. :smallbiggrin:


The cross that the Giant has to bear is that much of his audience has played D&D, is exquisitely aware of what high-level characters are capable of, and will have their suspension of disbelief broken if the characters don't behave up to those capabilities. At a certain point, I think most Superman readers just accept that the stories don't make any sense and move on -- or else they just don't think too much about it in the first place. Many OotS readers are a lot more more persnickety than that.

Of course, superhero readers are persnickety in their own ways. They just sort of have to accept that high-tier characters are rarely depicted in a way that makes sense given their power sets.

You are seriously underestimating how persnickety comic book readers can get. But that's okay, Dan DiDio does the same thing all the time, which is why I stopped reading DC comics last year. (I'd buy more Marvel books if they'd cut back on the annual crossovers! AvX , then Age of Ultron, now Infinite something! And the worst part is that they're not bad stories, they're just too sprawling! C'mon Joe, a quick hiatus for four years! Just do a few movie tie-ins instead, or have Phineas & Ferb meet Howard the Duck! Just stop with the massive crossovers!)


And, FWIW, OotS is infinitely more internally consistent than most superhero stories. Being tied to D&D just creates a lot of issues for certain members of the audience, it all.

I find that's true when you have a single creator who isn't tied to a shared universe. While I was ribbing Marvel for their annual crossovers, I do enjoy the Marvel Universe as a shared universe. I like the idea that a writer like Mark Waid, who's writing Daredevil, can have Matt Murdock face off with Dr. Doom or team up with She-Hulk for a courtroom drama. That's one of the problem with the Nu52: they took decades of continuity in a shared universe and flushed it down the toilet all to get a short term sales boost. In the mid-1990's, the Batman creative team were using portions of Dark Knight Returns as a potential roadmap. Would things turn out exactly as they did in the mini-series? No, they couldn't, but there were Easter Eggs, and potential plot twists that they lifted directly from DKR. Even if the Bat-editors didn't put the kibosh on that direction, the Nu52 has wiped out any possibility of it happening at all.


All that means is that Rich has different constraints than Frank Miller did.

Frank Miller has proven to the world that he operates with zero constraints. :smallannoyed:


He is by no means constrained to make his battles follow the likely dice rolls, and he's said so in this forum. If he wants Elminster to be defeated by a pair of ducks, within the framework of the D&D rules, he'll work out a way to do it. If he wants the Order to beat Tarquin, he'll work out a way to do it—or, rather, he won't let them get into a situation in which he has no way to do it. Possibly he'll use a smokestick.

Which pair of ducks? Two regular ducks? A pair of Awakened ducks with levels in archmage? Howard the Duck and Duck-tor Strange? I would pay good money to see a fight between Elminster and Howard the Duck! Maybe we should toss in Perry the Platypus too!


I'm not going to quibble about the plausibilty of the Superman-Batman fight in The Dark Knight Returns, because I don't have to. It's one of the most famous and well-regarded stories in the DC canon, and has been for decades. It's widely viewed as a masterpiece, which demonstrates that it's possible for Batman to beat Superman in a way that most readers find satisfying. That's not because superhero comic readers are somehow less picky than OotS readers—comic book fans are the poster children for fanboy entitlement. If Rich can make any battle in his comic have half the impact of that one, it'll be a great accomplishment.


Honestly, I'm not sure anyone can make confident statements about the way that fight scene is viewed anymore, as, to a large extent, Frank Miller's oeuvre in general has undergone whatever the opposite of "vindication by history" is. (I'm reasonably certain the Giant has gone on the record as disliking him, for instance).

Not that this really has anything to do with the topic at hand, since I think everyone agrees on the underlying premise: a sufficiently skilled writer can have Batman beat Superman and make it satisfying, and the same is likely true for the upcoming fight between Team Tarquin and the OOTS.


FWIW, if The Giant wrote the equivalent of TDKR fight in OotS in terms of the way that respective power levels are handled, a lot of folks would cry foul, is all I'm saying. Despite TDKR fight being really cool.

The Giant already wrote that sort of fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html), exactly that way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html). I was not on these boards at the time, so I can not report on what the prevailing sentiment was over the outcome of that fight.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Does this mean there are psions out there that don't take Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) at least a couple of times?

Yes, just like there are druids that don't take Natural Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html).

GW

[Cerussite]

Yes, just like there are druids that don't take Natural Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html).

GW

Just like there are clerics that don't take DMM and burn nightsticks for the win, and just like there are wizards that actually forsake conjuration, and there are people who play rangers with a wisdom penalty. Welcome to the 'real' world :P

[The Pilgrim]

Triceratops vs T-Rex is a classic of the genre. Triceratops wins, obviously. His riders, not so much, they are doomed by plot.

What I'm wondering is why Tarquin doesn't calls the two remaining members of his team (catgirl-whose-name-was-mentioned-but-I'm-too-lazy-to-look-for, and shoulder-pad guy).

[fehler]

I'm interested in what those wands Haley has will turn out to be. Z was prepped and stacked for a V fight, so they have to have some good anti-caster charges.

[Taelas]

Or, contrary to what people may believe, Z wasn't all about being V's evil opposite, and prepared for more than just one opponent.

[Sir_Leorik]

Just like there are clerics that don't take DMM and burn nightsticks for the win, and just like there are wizards that actually forsake conjuration, and there are people who play rangers with a wisdom penalty. Welcome to the 'real' world :P

There are DMs who ban cheap stuff like the DMM/Nightstick combo, or Frostcheese.

[F.Harr]

Hmm...Well, I've got this idea that at least one of the Order is going to die.

What, a THIRD dead OotSer? Isn't that a little repeditive? Especially given Belkar's prophisey?

On the other hand, a FAKE dead OotSer, that might work.

[Kornaki]

I'm interested in what those wands Haley has will turn out to be. Z was prepped and stacked for a V fight, so they have to have some good anti-caster charges.

On the contrary, Z has always fought V and never used a wand - likely those wands are what Z uses when he accidentally has to fight someone who isn't his good opposite.

[quasit]

1: Dino swallows whole T.
2: Flesh to stone dino.

...too bad V can't cast flesh to stone, besides, that would be just hilarious.

oh, and disposing Big guy like that would be just mean and totally non-good, too...

[Harbinger]

"I want you to remember, Clark…in all the years to come…in your most private moments…I want you to remember…my hand at your throat…I want you to remember...the one man who beat you…"

If you haven't read the source for that line, you should.

In the hands of a sufficiently talented author, Batman could defeat Superman. Or Superman could defeat Batman. Authors get to choose the circumstances, the breaks, the "die rolls", the special equipment. Batman can always defeat Superman if the author wants him to, and if it's a good author he can do so in a highly satisfying manner.

Batman can beat Superman. But not in a straight fight. Just like Roy can beat Xykon. When I wrote my original, I was more responding to the peple who seemed to think they would do exactly that, directly fight Tarquin and his buddies and win.


1: Dino swallows whole T.
2: Flesh to stone dino.

...too bad V can't cast flesh to stone, besides, that would be just hilarious.

oh, and disposing Big guy like that would be just mean and totally non-good, too...

Belkar would probably eviscerate V if she did that. Or at least try to.

[Mike Havran]

What I'm wondering is why Tarquin doesn't calls the two remaining members of his team (catgirl-whose-name-was-mentioned-but-I'm-too-lazy-to-look-for, and shoulder-pad guy). Because they know about his Scheme.

If he called them, everybody relevant to his Scheme would be in one place and the Plot could turn the fight into a TPK for Tarquin and his team.

But since they are not present, they can't be killed here which would mean the Scheme will outlast whatever turn the confrontation might take.

Since the Scheme persists, the Heroes are forced to return to the Western Continent because they need to solve it.

Since they are going to return to solve it, it makes sense Tarquin will be there as the most developed antagonist.

Not calling them is much safer option for Tarquin by far.




...too bad V can't cast flesh to stone, besides, that would be just hilarious. V can cast Flesh to Stone (it isn't stated she doesn't have it in the spellbook)

[zimmerwald1915]

V can cast Flesh to Stone (it isn't stated she doesn't have it in the spellbook)
Even if the Giant doesn't want to give her flesh to stone for whatever reason, prismatic spray can petrify if he needs it to.

[quasit]

Belkar would probably eviscerate V if she did that. Or at least try to.

That depends on V being quick enough to tell Belkar that petrification can be undone easily and it will be, not before a reasonable ammount of time has passed to ensure that the ****er is crushed, smothered and ready to be digested. Hey , even Big gets high level treats, neat win for everibody!
Yeah, it sounds quite hard to explain in only a few seconds...




V can cast Flesh to Stone (it isn't stated she doesn't have it in the spellbook)
Okay he MAY, but neither did before nor mentioned elsewhere... damn:smallredface:

[zimmerwald1915]

That depends on V being quick enough to tell Belkar that petrification can be undone easily and it will be, not before a reasonable ammount of time has passed to ensure that the ****er is crushed, smothered and ready to be digested.
You just posited a scenario where V is quick to tell someone something with concision and clarity. Think about that for a second :smalltongue:

[Tebryn]

V can cast Flesh to Stone (it isn't stated she doesn't have it in the spellbook)

That's not how that works. V's able to cast Flesh to Stone but we don't know if she has it. It's not stated she does have it either. We can't assume she does just because we're not told she doesn't.

[allenw]

Fights between spellcasters are often decided by who goes first. V going first could very well down any of the three with a lucky prismatic spray, or she could neutralize Tarquin with a Forcecage (she hasn't cast any level 7 spells yet that I can remember).


While Tarquin is apparently not actually as uber-prepared as, say, the Oracle or Batman, it seems plausible that he might carry a Rod of Cancellation for just such situations.

[137beth]

You just posited a scenario where V is quick to tell someone something with concision and clarity. Think about that for a second :smalltongue:

It doesn't require that--it just depends on Belkar (who is constitution-drained) failing a fortitude save.

[Matt620]

Durkon's got no more spells left, Roy and Belkar are injured. V is their most powerful opponent, but M is a caster with all his juice. Couldn't he just counterspell V?

[kit_reyne]

Interesting thread evolution going on here.

I think what would be the most interesting is if Haley gets killed, Elan goes to the Dark Side and takes his rightful place at Tarquin's side by blaming Roy and killing him while singing "It's your fault, fault, fault..."

[Kornaki]

Durkon's got no more spells left, Roy and Belkar are injured. V is their most powerful opponent, but M is a caster with all his juice. Couldn't he just counterspell V?

Assuming that he has come prepared to counterspell an enemy spellcaster and recognizes the tactical benefit/necessity of doing so in time.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html

emphasis on "seldom used"

[orrion]

Durkon's got no more spells left, Roy and Belkar are injured. V is their most powerful opponent, but M is a caster with all his juice. Couldn't he just counterspell V?

Until he was out of identically prepared spells and Dispel Magic charges, yeah.

How boring would that be, though?

[LadyEowyn]

Kill Elan. Inform Tarquin that if Elan is raised by anybody who does not have the same alignment as Durkon, he will refuse all future raises. Tarquin thinks "wtf is Durkon's alignment now that he's a vampire? Nuts, I can't take this risk" and lets the Order go so that Durkon can raise Elan at a later date.

It's bold, and obviously isn't the plan that Elan came up with originally, but it might be a solid way to get out of this specific fight, and if written well has the bonus of riffing on the forum being confused about Durkon's alignment.
Tarquin would know that vampires are almost inherently Evil-aligned, and saw enough of Durkon's behaviour while he was at the palace to work out that he's Lawful (also, given what Durkon has to say about being a dwarf I'd guess that the large majority of dwarves are Lawful). So they're both Lawful Evil, and a dead Elan can't determine which one of them a Raise Dead is from.

[Everyl]

What I'm wondering is why Tarquin doesn't calls the two remaining members of his team (catgirl-whose-name-was-mentioned-but-I'm-too-lazy-to-look-for, and shoulder-pad guy).

Most likely, he arranged for the two party members with the most ranks of Knowledge, Spell/Psicraft, and anything else that would have been relevant to analyzing a captured Gate to come join him. He set most of that up before even leaving the city, and sent the signal to come when he ran off for a few hours while the Order was in the shared illusion. Getting the other two to join would require a time-consuming series of Sendings and Wormholes, draining their casting resources and making it harder to pinpoint the Order for yet another Wormhole to catch up to them. And that's assuming that they aren't already busy with other business - which comes before pleasure, unless Tarquin has more favors to call in. And probably even if he does.

[JCAll]

Triceratops vs T-Rex is a classic of the genre. Triceratops wins, obviously.

Even if T-Rex is hopped up on defensive potions?

[David Argall]

Let's ask the experts.
Tarquin obviously deems this a clear win for his side.
M is talking about victory even before L says she is coming.
L obviously expects both her and Tarquin to, at the very least, survive.
Roy is running, directly away from Tarquin.
Nor does the rest of the party seem to disagree.

Based on the evidence before us, the party is toast. D&D rules just can't save them. We can expect the next strip or so to be very bleak for the party.

[Mike Havran]

Let's ask the experts.
Tarquin obviously deems this a clear win for his side.
M is talking about victory even before L says she is coming.
L obviously expects both her and Tarquin to, at the very least, survive.
Roy is running, directly away from Tarquin.
Nor does the rest of the party seem to disagree.

Based on the evidence before us, the party is toast. D&D rules just can't save them. We can expect the next strip or so to be very bleak for the party.The Order behaves reasonably. Tarquin underestimates the Order because he believes the Plot is on his side. It isn't. Miron and Laurin trust Tarquin's judgement, because they are used to him being usually on the mark.

The Order wins any confrontation with Tarquin because Plot is on their side. Vaarsuvius alone is powerful enough to defeat practically anything non-divine and it'll still be within the limits (ask the Gargantuan Pit Fiend Statue). The probability-based rules will service the Narrative as would a silver-piece harlot.

[zimmerwald1915]

Let's ask the experts.
Why should we credit as "expert" the rough-and-ready judgment calls made by people in the moment with far from complete information and in a far from wholly rational state of mind? All we know from their respective decisions is that Roy is not willing to risk facing Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, while Tarquin is willing to risk himself, Miron and Laurin in attacking the Order. All we can infer from this is that Tarquin judges the potential gain to be had more worth the risk of confrontation than Roy does. We can not infer that there is no risk to Tarquin, Miron and Laurin.

[AKA_Bait]

Until he was out of identically prepared spells and Dispel Magic charges, yeah.

How boring would that be, though?

Pretty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html)Boring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html).


The Order wins any confrontation with Tarquin because Plot is on their side. Vaarsuvius alone is powerful enough to defeat practically anything non-divine and it'll still be within the limits (ask the Gargantuan Pit Fiend Statue). The probability-based rules will service the Narrative as would a silver-piece harlot.

Because the Giant is so predictable that the plot is always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)on the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) Order's side (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html).


Tarquin obviously deems this a clear win for his side.

Are we totally sure about that? Tarquin seems to have thought that he needs the other two to win. He needs them badly enough, in fact, to go into debt to L and cash in a favor he has been sitting on for over a decade. That implies that he didn't think it would be a cake walk with just him and M, at a minimum.

[Sloanzilla]

Do psi's need to make concentration checks in 3.5? Assuming the Order was making optimal choices and TT doesn't get a surprise round, I'd probably sick the vampire on the psi and grapple away.

[Mike Havran]

Because the Giant is so predictable that the plot is always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)on the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) Order's side (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html).OK, let me adjust that one sentence.

The Order wins any confrontation with Tarquin because right now, Plot is on their side.

[innk]

How powerful exactly Elan is D&D-wise?

I'm not discussing what really Elan should do or how powerful he really is, but assuming a character exactly like his would be played in a real campaign.

Considering the upcoming scenario as a real D&D battle, how useful it really is to have a bard/dashing swordsman on that battle? How should this character be played?

By reading the comic without a great knowledge of D&D I get the impression that his songs are effectively useless all the time (I get the impression that his songs should give like a +1 bonus to something or anything statistically useless), his spells are incapable of doing any kind of good in a combat situation (save his low level healing spells or an occasional neutralize poison) and his skills as a fighter are REALLY inferior to everyone else.


But I must be wrong, because after all he is just as high level as the others, and a high level PC no matter what class should be able to at least play along the others, right?

[Sunken Valley]

Miron is not Wizard. He is the least intelligent of the four members of Team Tarquin we've heard talk (splashy butt thing). And given that Shattersmith pulls Sorcerer duties, it would be a waste to have 2 similar characters. I think Miron might be bard. Tarquin said a jack of all trades bard was needed in a 5 man party. Miron sounds like a streetwise bard.

[Sir_Leorik]

Do psi's need to make concentration checks in 3.5? Assuming the Order was making optimal choices and TT doesn't get a surprise round, I'd probably sick the vampire on the psi and grapple away.

Yes, Psions (and Wilders and Psychic Warriors) need to make Concentration checks to avoid having their powers disrupted or to manifest their powers defensively. They also need to make a DC 20 Concentration check to assume their Psionic Focus, and practically EVERY Psionic or Metapsionic feat in existence requires Psionic Focus.

Laurin probably has max ranks in Concentration, though given how she got so distraught over hearing of Malack's destruction, she probably has lost her Psionic Focus. :smalltongue:

[Mike Havran]

How powerful exactly Elan is D&D-wise?

I'm not discussing what really Elan should do or how powerful he really is, but assuming a character exactly like his would be played in a real campaign.

Considering the upcoming scenario as a real D&D battle, how useful it really is to have a bard/dashing swordsman on that battle? How should this character be played?

By reading the comic without a great knowledge of D&D I get the impression that his songs are effectively useless all the time (I get the impression that his songs should give like a +1 bonus to something or anything statistically useless), his spells are incapable of doing any kind of good in a combat situation (save his low level healing spells or an occasional neutralize poison) and his skills as a fighter are REALLY inferior to everyone else.


But I must be wrong, because after all he is just as high level as the others, and a high level PC no matter what class should be able to at least play along the others, right?Elan's song should be a +3 at his level. But that's not the main point. Elan just has low INT so most of the time, he can't determine what should he do and how should he use his tricks and spells. And also, he is happy to follow Roy's command.

Tier-wise, a high-charisma Bard with a dip in dex-based melee class should be more powerful than Haley or Roy.

[innk]

Elan's song should be a +3 at his level. But that's not the main point. Elan just has low INT so most of the time, he can't determine what should he do and how should he use his tricks and spells. And also, he is happy to follow Roy's command.

Tier-wise, a high-charisma Bard with a dip in dex-based melee class should be more powerful than Haley or Roy.

Thanks, its this kind of explanation I was looking forward to. I know that Elan himself just really plays as an useless party member from time to time because of the story, but I figured that his character sheet actually being played by someone in a real D&D game should be way more powerful than it looks like on the strips.

But how exactly should Elan be useful on that battle? There are lots of possibilities for the other characters on this thread (e.g. V prismatic spraying the dino with everyone on top of it, Haley sneak attacking the caster from above with an icy arrow, etc.) but I see no possibility for Elan... How could he be more powerful than Roy? By jumping into melee range with the caster and smacking her up with puns? :smallbiggrin:

[Sir_Leorik]

How powerful exactly Elan is D&D-wise?

I'm not discussing what really Elan should do or how powerful he really is, but assuming a character exactly like his would be played in a real campaign.

Considering the upcoming scenario as a real D&D battle, how useful it really is to have a bard/dashing swordsman on that battle? How should this character be played?

By reading the comic without a great knowledge of D&D I get the impression that his songs are effectively useless all the time (I get the impression that his songs should give like a +1 bonus to something or anything statistically useless), his spells are incapable of doing any kind of good in a combat situation (save his low level healing spells or an occasional neutralize poison) and his skills as a fighter are REALLY inferior to everyone else.


But I must be wrong, because after all he is just as high level as the others, and a high level PC no matter what class should be able to at least play along the others, right?

This is where the concept of character tiers comes in. Bards are described as "jacks of all trades, masters of none". They have the same combat ability as a Rogue, but fewer skills and skill points, some spellcasting ability, but much less than a Sorcerer, and a unique ability of Bardic Music. A Bard who maxes out Perform (Song), carries a longbow, and chooses his spells carefully, to maximize healing and buffs, can be a very great help to a party. Elan requires a two handed musical instrument and singing to use Bardic Music, meaning he can't attack and buff the party with Bardic Music at the same time. He mostly knows Illusion spells, but rarely chooses good ones. Intelligence is one of his dump stats, meaning he has fewer skills and a worse Bardic Knowledge bonus than a typical Bard.

A typical Bard would be able to fill the gaps in a party, or buff up a party containing a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard and Ranger, while still attacking from a distance. Elan is not a typical Bard. He is the very definition of "master of none", without even being a "jack of all trades". Without the bonus from Dashing Swordsman, Elan is a poor melee combatant. Elan cannot engage in melee and use Bardic Music at the same time. Elan is, in short, often a danger to himself and others.


Miron is not Wizard. He is the least intelligent of the four members of Team Tarquin we've heard talk (splashy butt thing). And given that Shattersmith pulls Sorcerer duties, it would be a waste to have 2 similar characters. I think Miron might be bard. Tarquin said a jack of all trades bard was needed in a 5 man party. Miron sounds like a streetwise bard.

We don't know Miron's class, since the only thing we've ever seen him do is use a wand to threaten someone and write a letter. (Or dictate a letter. We didn't actually see Miron write it.)

We've seen Laurin manifest Psionic Disintegrate, Wormhole, and sorm form of telepathy. We saw Malack engage in multiple battles which indicated how high his Cleric level was (lower than Durkon's). We've seen Jacinda make a Death Attack (an Assassin class feature). We don't know anything about Miron's abilities.

[orrion]

Pretty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html)Boring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html).


Um, Bait, that was two Counterspells over how many spells cast? Not consistent Counterspelling to completely shut down the opposite wizard.

[AKA_Bait]

OK, let me adjust that one sentence.

The Order wins any confrontation with Tarquin because right now, Plot is on their side.

I think that's entirely debatable. I, for one, thought Plot was on their side at (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) points where it clearly wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html) when viewed in retrospect.


Considering the upcoming scenario as a real D&D battle, how useful it really is to have a bard/dashing swordsman on that battle? How should this character be played?
*snip*
But I must be wrong, because after all he is just as high level as the others, and a high level PC no matter what class should be able to at least play along the others, right?

We don't entirely know because the dashing swordsman class is homebrewed by the Giant. Might be a good topic of it's own thread.


I think Miron might be bard. Tarquin said a jack of all trades bard was needed in a 5 man party. Miron sounds like a streetwise bard.

That seems improbable to me. Miron certainly doesn't dress like a bard and Tarquin's suggestion that he get in there and start casting doesn't make all that much sense if he were a bard. Most bard spells aren't really the offensive type of spell I take Tarquin to mean in that context.


Um, Bait, that was ONE Counterspell. Not consistent Counterspelling.

There were actually 2 links there, from the same battle. Granted, it's not counterspell after counterspell after counterspell. My point was that so long as other things are going on in panel it really won't be that boring.

Edit: Ah the confusion of edits within edits.

[orrion]

I think that's entirely debatable. I, for one, thought Plot was on their side at (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) points where it clearly wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html) when viewed in retrospect.


You really thought plot was on the Order's side at the time when Roy was on a flying zombie dragon facing an epic lich sorcerer by himself?

I.. don't know what to say to that.

[AKA_Bait]

You really thought plot was on the Order's side at the time when Roy was on a flying zombie dragon facing an epic lich sorcerer by himself?

I.. don't know what to say to that.

Honestly, it looked like a heroic epic moment for me. The sort of thing where the rules covering D&D would get bent and the dice roll just right for our hero. After all, the falling head did save V.


We don't know Miron's class, since the only thing we've ever seen him do is use a wand to threaten someone and write a letter. (Or dictate a letter. We didn't actually see Miron write it.)

We've seen Laurin manifest Psionic Disintegrate, Wormhole, and sorm form of telepathy. We saw Malack engage in multiple battles which indicated how high his Cleric level was (lower than Durkon's). We've seen Jacinda make a Death Attack (an Assassin class feature). We don't know anything about Miron's abilities.

Also, I don't think that we can jump to the conclusion that Tarquin isn't the fifth man of the party. I've seen pretty good arguments that Tarquin is a Factotum, which is just about as fifth manish as you can get.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You really thought plot was on the Order's side at the time when Roy was on a flying zombie dragon facing an epic lich sorcerer by himself?

Errrr... yes? I mean, trope-wise, that sounds like a million-to-one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MillionToOneChance) chance to me, and everyone knows that those pop up nine times out of ten.

No, the problem here was not the lich or the undead dragon, it was the fact we had not yet been to all the gates: being in the second act of the story was not a good sign. But I didn't expect Roy to die in the process of not winning.

Grey Wolf

[orrion]

Errrr... yes? I mean, trope-wise, that sounds like a million-to-one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MillionToOneChance) chance to me, and everyone knows that those pop up nine times out of ten.

No, the problem here was not the lich or the undead dragon, it was the fact we had not yet been to all the gates: being in the second act of the story was not a good sign. But I didn't expect Roy to die in the process of not winning.

Grey Wolf

Knowing that they hadn't been to all the gates yet would seem to indicate that the plot was at best neutral and at worst on side of the villain.

[Sir_Leorik]

I think that's entirely debatable. I, for one, thought Plot was on their side at (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) points where it clearly wasn't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0441.html) when viewed in retrospect.

In retrospect, the Battle of Azure City began as a chess match between the OotS and the Azurites vs. Redcloak and the Hobgoblin Army, with Xykon as the wildcard preparing to kick the table at any moment. Each side made moves (Redcloak preparing the decoys and summoning Elementals, V dismissing three elementals and Haley figuring out Redcloak's gambit with the decoys) and then the wildcard was identified. At that point Roy made the decision to jump onto the Zombie Silver Dragon, and that point the battle became less of a chess match, and more of a battle of attrition. Between Redcloak deciding to stop throwing away Hobgoblin lives needlessly, and Miko destroying the Gate, the Hobgoblins won the battle of attrition.

Part of that battle of attrition was V and Durkon running out of spells, Xykon killing Roy, and Xykon casually slaughtering the Sapphire Guard. Like O-Chul said: "This is a war. There are likely to be significant casualties." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) That's how wars work.

Tarquin believes the world to operate under different rules, the rules of narrative causality. He believes himself to be the main villain in a fantasy adventure story, and as a result he lives his life accordingly, trying to "game the system" in his favor. But he's wrong.

The main villain in this story isn't General Tarquin, a devious warlord who plans to unify the chaotic Western Continent into a single Empire, by working behind the scenes, it's Xykon.

Once a peasant boy with Sorcerer powers, able to Animate the dead when he was a child, and whose mastery of Arcane magic has grown to Epic proportions in the past century
Xykon is now a Lich, an undead monstrosity consumed with a hatred for the living and and whose unquenchable boredom is only alleviated by watching them suffer. Redcloak, a Goblin Cleric and the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, chosen prophet of the Dark One, god of all Goblinkind, provided Xykon with a secret ritual which Xykon thinks will allow Xykon to control the Snarl, a Primordial beast able to undo creation. That's actually a lie; the ritual lets the Dark One shift the Gate to a Plane of his choosing, such as the throne room of one of the gods, and threaten to release the Snarl there.

Since Tarquin puts so much faith into the power of narrative causality, if he were to honestly compare his origin story (divorcee warlord working petty ante scheme to conquer a continent, may not be complete before he dies, plus his son hates him) vs. Xykon's (go read Start of Darkness!) and compares their ambitions, he'd realize he's a minor villain. The only reason he even rates higher than Daimyo Kubota, Bozzok, Grubbwriggler, Samantha or the Snail, is his relationship to Elan. (By the same token, Nale and the ABD rate higher than those losers, because Nale is also related to Elan, and the ABD threatened V's family in revenge for the killing of her son. The IFCC rate higher than any of them, but not quite on Xykon's level, because we know so little about them.) However Tarquin's ego has him convinced he's the main villain (plus he probably confused Xykon with some demon or devil with an eating disorder :smallwink:).

In terms of narrative, book five is drawing to a final showdown between the OotS and TT (or parts of it). The Order has some serious issues (Belkar's Con drain, Durkon out of healing and low on spells), but V has plenty of spell slots left (including high level ones), courtesy of her Ring of Wizardry. Haley has some brand new wands to try out with UMD, Roy has a new sword trick, Belkar has an Allosaurus he tamed with Wild Empathy, and Durkon's a Vampire now. Everyone but Elan has a cool new trick or some hefty firepower to bring to this fight. This is not a Bolivian Army Showdown for the OotS. They can win using the D&D rules, and they can win because The Giant wants to wrap up Book Five in a satisfactory way, and then go finish the Kickstarter goodies he was working on when he injured his thumb.

[Sir_Leorik]

Errrr... yes? I mean, trope-wise, that sounds like a million-to-one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MillionToOneChance) chance to me, and everyone knows that those pop up nine times out of ten.

No, the problem here was not the lich or the undead dragon, it was the fact we had not yet been to all the gates: being in the second act of the story was not a good sign. But I didn't expect Roy to die in the process of not winning.

Grey Wolf

I remember Rich writing in the commentary to War & XPs that he intended Celia's Talisman to be a red herring to keep readers from thinking Roy was in danger when he made the leap. He also set up the strip in question in a vertical line, scrolling down, to build up suspense and make readers wonder how Roy would weasel his way out of danger. Worked pretty well, if I remember. :smallfrown:

[veti]

Honestly, it looked like a heroic epic moment for me. The sort of thing where the rules covering D&D would get bent and the dice roll just right for our hero. After all, the falling head did save V.

That "falling head" thing keeps coming up...

But to me, it was obvious that V had been backed into that (metaphorical) corner for comic purposes, and her salvation from it would also be played for laughs. I didn't know how it would happen, but I wasn't the least surprised when it did. There was no "drama" involved.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Knowing that they hadn't been to all the gates yet would seem to indicate that the plot was at best neutral and at worst on side of the villain.

Which was my point. Yours was that we should expect the main character to die when confronting the big bad. Which is literately unlikely to the extreme. For one thing, Roy has already managed to defeat him once. For another, we know he will defeat him again. The only reason to think Roy was in danger was the act number, not his adversaries.

Grey Wolf

[Sloanzilla]

I like Sir Leorik's assessment of the situation on post 85, but as a reader/viewer, I'm really hoping that Elan will wind up being the ace in the hole here- either via roleplay or combat.

The "Elan is useless" joke is fun, but we've been reminded of it so many times over the past few strips that it feels like we're being set up. The other five heroes all more or less were given deliberate moments of badassery, with Elan then commenting that he sort of enjoys the lower level of pressure.

I like the idea of Book 5 ending with an Elan moment of badassery, saving the group because he was underestimated by both sides.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm really hoping that Elan will wind up being the ace in the hole here-

He already has been (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html). He might be again, in the future. But Elan's strength is not in the combat arena, but in the understanding of plot. Like Tarquin says, Elan's understanding of "narrative physics" means he is fare more likely to predict the future and bend the rules to his advantages than anyone else. V needs to use all v's power to break the rules of physics. Elan just needs to know when the plot will break them for him.

Grey Wolf

[Sir_Leorik]

I like Sir Leorik's assessment of the situation on post 85, but as a reader/viewer, I'm really hoping that Elan will wind up being the ace in the hole here- either via roleplay or combat.

The "Elan is useless" joke is fun, but we've been reminded of it so many times over the past few strips that it feels like we're being set up. The other five heroes all more or less were given deliberate moments of badassery, with Elan then commenting that he sort of enjoys the lower level of pressure.

I like the idea of Book 5 ending with an Elan moment of badassery, saving the group because he was underestimated by both sides.

Ever since Therkla died in his arms, Elan has been determined to be more and more competent as a hero. He was already on that path in the escape from Cliffport in W&XPs, but I think that his failure to save Therkla, and how much his rejection hurt her in her final moments, had a profound affect on Elan. He not only failed to be the dashing hero he pretends to be, he hurt Therkla, without meaning to. Between that and his crushing realization in the Phantasm trap, Elan is not the same person he was at the beginning of this story.

Maybe that will be how he outwits and defeats his dad: showing that life isn't a silly little story to tell to children at bedtime (or to read on the internet in comic format), where Good always triumphs over Evil. Life is about people with petty concerns, and real worries, who interact with each other, sometimes hurting each other without meaning to, and letting each other down. But sometimes True Love does win out, the Hero beats the Villain, and Big Damn Heroes can best a Team of Dastardly Bad Guys. And someone writes down those events and makes into a song or story to tell to children at bedtime (or slowly writes and draws a webcomic about it over forteen or fifteen years, injuring his thumb in the process, and breaking a record on Kickstarter). Basically Tarquin has it backwards, and Elan has it right: stories don't influence real life directly, real life influences stories. I believe that The Giant once wrote that he felt that art that doesn't comment on our lives is not worth creating. By commenting on our lives, the story is there to provide commentary or opinion, to pass on some wisdom or folklore. It's not there to provide Tarquin with cheat codes to help him in his conquests.

So it is possible Elan will have a Crowning Moment of Awesome, but it will be by making a speech, singing a song or reciting an Epic Poem that sums up the wisdom he's learned, and tells Tarquin where he went wrong. Not by winning a swordfight or casting a spell. :smallcool:

[Benthesquid]

Something I've only just considered- Sir Baron Professor Archibald Lizardface wasn't working alone- he mentions "Reptilia's spies," uncovering the plot, and Miron remarks that this bumps Reptilia up to the top of the list to be conquered.

However, such an invasion would take a while to muster, since it apparently wasn't already on the schedule, and while Reptilia may or may not believe Ian is the direct assassin, they may very well already know what Sir Baron Doctor Professor Archibald Von Lizardface, MD, PhD, JD, did, and be able to figure out that Tarquin is the major threat.

Therefore, I issue my Official Zany Prediction- the Order will be saved by a legion of Lizardfolk, who will be frustrated that they had to plan the entire encounter using human miniatures.

[Sir_Leorik]

Something I've only just considered- Sir Baron Professor Archibald Lizardface wasn't working alone- he mentions "Reptilia's spies," uncovering the plot, and Miron remarks that this bumps Reptilia up to the top of the list to be conquered.

However, such an invasion would take a while to muster, since it apparently wasn't already on the schedule, and while Reptilia may or may not believe Ian is the direct assassin, they may very well already know what Sir Baron Doctor Professor Archibald Von Lizardface, MD, PhD, JD, did, and be able to figure out that Tarquin is the major threat.

Therefore, I issue my Official Zany Prediction- the Order will be saved by a legion of Lizardfolk, who will be frustrated that they had to plan the entire encounter using human miniatures.

That would be quite the Brick Joke. :smallbiggrin:

[Sunken Valley]

For another, we know he will defeat him again.


No, we don't. We saw it go that way in the fake happy ending. If we saw it a second time, that would be boring. Very little that happens in the fake happy ending will happen in reality. This includes Roy killing Xykon. Another candidate has already been set up who could kill Xykon. And that's O-Chul.

[Sir_Leorik]

No, we don't. We saw it go that way in the fake happy ending. If we saw it a second time, that would be boring. Very little that happens in the fake happy ending will happen in reality. This includes Roy killing Xykon. Another candidate has already been set up who could kill Xykon. And that's O-Chul.

The issue isn't whether Roy will destroy Xykon, it's whether Roy will do so in such an easy fashion as he did in the Phantasm. He won't have it so easy. But that doesn't mean he can't do it. He's done it once before, albeit with a Deus ex Machina in the form of the runes on Dorukan's Gate.

[Sunken Valley]

The issue isn't whether Roy will destroy Xykon, it's whether Roy will do so in such an easy fashion as he did in the Phantasm. He won't have it so easy. But that doesn't mean he can't do it. He's done it once before, albeit with a Deus ex Machina in the form of the runes on Dorukan's Gate.

Of course he can do it. He's finished his character development (more than the others). But from a narrative perspective, this author likes to subvert expectations. It is expected that Roy will kill Xykon. We saw it in the fake happy ending, even if it was too easy. But very little from that ending will happen in any way in reality. O-Chul is by logic a far more exciting choice for killing Xykon. Mitd says he's more important than Roy. That's foreshadowing. Rich even said O-Chul has "a major role" to play in the story. The author who said with regard to book 5 "someone will die. But you already know that" (a tease setting up the possibility of Belkar's death but really meaning Durkon). You could say that's turning Mitd to good. That's what he wants you to think. He subverts your expectations.

[veti]

No, we don't. We saw it go that way in the fake happy ending. If we saw it a second time, that would be boring. Very little that happens in the fake happy ending will happen in reality. This includes Roy killing Xykon. Another candidate has already been set up who could kill Xykon. And that's O-Chul.

There should be a pool on this: "who gets to kill Xykon (for the next, and presumably final, time)?"

My money would be on the MitD or the Snarl. Conceivably Redcloak. Think I'd give reasonable odds against O-Chul.

[David Argall]

The Order behaves reasonably. Tarquin underestimates the Order because he believes the Plot is on his side. It isn't. Miron and Laurin trust Tarquin's judgement, because they are used to him being usually on the mark.

The Order wins any confrontation with Tarquin because Plot is on their side. Vaarsuvius alone is powerful enough to defeat practically anything non-divine and it'll still be within the limits (ask the Gargantuan Pit Fiend Statue). The probability-based rules will service the Narrative as would a silver-piece harlot.
Based on plot, of course the party will win, or rather survive. But that is not the point under discussion. Given a "real" party vs a "real" TT, the party is quite correct to be running for their lives and Tarquin & friends would cakewalk to victory.
Plot tells us little about how reasonable the plot result is. In fact we have a presumption that it is unreasonable in cases like this. The worse the odds for the heroes, the greater their victory, and so their foe must be the odds-on favorite. They win when by any reasonable standard they should lose, whether by fluke, overlooked resourse, or ...
So V is powerful? Sure, but our girl is doing magic he can't match. She's just a talented amateur compared to our psion. And we have already seen Roy has no chance vs Tarquin. He's good, but he is still way outmatched. The party, by any reasonable measure, is threatened with major loss.

[orrion]

The issue isn't whether Roy will destroy Xykon, it's whether Roy will do so in such an easy fashion as he did in the Phantasm. He won't have it so easy. But that doesn't mean he can't do it. He's done it once before, albeit with a Deus ex Machina in the form of the runes on Dorukan's Gate.

It was hinted at that the gate would destroy evil way before Roy threw Xykon into it. He'd been sending goblins over to try and activate it for a long time, and we as readers were aware of that.


Of course he can do it. He's finished his character development (more than the others). But from a narrative perspective, this author likes to subvert expectations. It is expected that Roy will kill Xykon. We saw it in the fake happy ending, even if it was too easy. But very little from that ending will happen in any way in reality. O-Chul is by logic a far more exciting choice for killing Xykon. Mitd says he's more important than Roy. That's foreshadowing. Rich even said O-Chul has "a major role" to play in the story. The author who said with regard to book 5 "someone will die. But you already know that" (a tease setting up the possibility of Belkar's death but really meaning Durkon). You could say that's turning Mitd to good. That's what he wants you to think. He subverts your expectations.

Eh, O-Chul could kill Redcloak. That would be a major role.

Or he could be the bridge between Paladins and goblins, stopping the senseless killing of the goblin race merely because "they're evil." That would be a major role and possibly even more important than the completion of the plot in terms of the things Rich wants readers to think about.

[zimmerwald1915]

Based on plot, of course the party will win, or rather survive. But that is not the point under discussion. Given a "real" party vs a "real" TT, the party is quite correct to be running for their lives and Tarquin & friends would cakewalk to victory.
That may be your impression, but your impression is not the reality. The reality is that the Order has a non-zero chance of actually defeating Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, and a far better chance of doing what they want to do: escape with at most one life lost.

[Sloanzilla]

How about both? Hayley is knocked out and Roy is defeated, etc. Elan verbally tells his father to grow up while physically disarming/defeating him. The impact would still be on the narrative, but the physical victory would emphasize Elan's mental growth.

[ReaderAt2046]

My thoughts on how this battle will fall out, assuming zero plot modifiers on rolls and adherence to D&D rules.

V, I suspect, will be a lot weaker than everyone seems to think. V tends from what I've seen to prepare a lot of AoE spells, and those are strong against low-level mooks (see previous couple of strips) but weaker against small numbers of high-end fighters. Durkula is essentially fresh out of spells at the moment, so he's useless on that front. Elan probably still has most of his juice, but he's out of healing and his illusions won't be very helpful.
On the other side of the coin, we have Miron, who is some kind of caster and has not spent any spells today as far as we know. So he roughly equals or slightly exceeds V in power. We also have Laurin. Now according to my math, assuming Laurin is level 17 (the lowest level where you can manifest 9th-level powers), she has a minimum of 250 PPs without counting in her bonus points for high Int. Now, she's manifested four powers today, and you can't spend more than your level in PPs on any given power, so she's spent an absolute max of 68 PPs. That leaves her 182, or enough for 10 max-power manifestations, without counting in probable extras from a higher level or ability bonuses.
In short, TT has a huge edge in casters.
Melee is where the Order may have the edge. Roy is a fairly well-built fighter, and still has most of his Hp thanks to Durkula's potions. Also, Durkula is almost as powerful in straight combat as Roy by this point, between DR, fast heal, level-draining slams (though TT are pretty likely to make their saves) and his ability boosts.
Belkar will need to stay out of this due to being fragile enough to get killed by splash damage, but that T-Rex of his has potential to put pressure on Tarquin. Finally, Elan and Haley are probably best used harassing the casters, trying to keep Miron and especially Laurin to busy fending them off and trying to make their concentration checks to sway the tide.

[allenw]

Tarquin would know that vampires are almost inherently Evil-aligned, and saw enough of Durkon's behaviour while he was at the palace to work out that he's Lawful (also, given what Durkon has to say about being a dwarf I'd guess that the large majority of dwarves are Lawful). So they're both Lawful Evil, and a dead Elan can't determine which one of them a Raise Dead is from.

Technically, a soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm) So, Tarquin would need to find a high-level Lawful Evil cleric whose real name is "Durkon Thundershield". Lucky for him, Elan is even less likely than we are to know what (if any) deity Durkon now serves.

[CombatOwl]

...Y'know, that's the most plausible theory I've read yet explaining Elan's plan. It explain's why Elan wanted to explain it to Durkon...and why The Giant showed us that Durkon has enough Diamond Dust left for a single resurrection. Heck, maybe Durkon will kill Elan himself...I'm convinced until it's proven completely wrong, though!

Or, you know, Elan just proclaims himself the new leader of the OOTS. Seems like the sort of thing Roy would propose, if he knew the circumstances.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Those three have clearly been established by the plot as being far more powerful than the party by this point. The Order is battered, fleeing for their lives, and in no shape narratively to just win this battle.

IF the Order wins then it will be a victory through diplomacy, negotiation, or a sudden plot twist from Elan's mysterious plan. They are simply not going to win through raw power.

I am expecting this to end in some form of truce.

[Everyl]

My thoughts on how this battle will fall out, assuming zero plot modifiers on rolls and adherence to D&D rules.

V, I suspect, will be a lot weaker than everyone seems to think. V tends from what I've seen to prepare a lot of AoE spells, and those are strong against low-level mooks (see previous couple of strips) but weaker against small numbers of high-end fighters.

V has been known to prepare Disintegrate multiple times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html). Against enemy casters with middling Constitution and no known defensive spells or items in effect, that's a highly effective one-shot kill even if those casters are ~5 levels higher. When V last had a chance to prepare spells, they were expecting to be combating illusions and encountering possibly-hostile sorcerers, so it's not unreasonable for V to have prepared that and/or other anti-caster spells I'm not knowledgeable enough about high-level combat to anticipate.

Of course, Miron and Laurin probably have defensive magic items. Laurin, at the very least, has ioun stones, which can fill the role, assuming the green one also has lavendar bits that don't show up from a distance. They could also have unusual Constitution for casters, or good luck on the save or damage rolls, or any number of other factors that we can't predict.

My point is just that, without knowing what spells and/or powers each combatant readied for today, and exactly what persistent defensive items they have and/or temporary defensive effects they've cast off-panel, the fight really is totally up in the air. If V just beats Miron and Laurin on initiative and goes on the offensive, the fight can go from 6 vs. 3 to 6 vs. 2 in a single spell, just based on spells we already know V can cast. Laurin could theoretically eliminate V just as easily. We'll just have to see how Rich decides that everyone acts and see how he decides the dice fall; there simply isn't enough information available to make a good guess.

[137beth]

There should be a pool on this: "who gets to kill Xykon (for the next, and presumably final, time)?"

My money would be on the MitD or the Snarl. Conceivably Redcloak. Think I'd give reasonable odds against O-Chul.

I'm going to second this. I think Redcloak will be pivotal to destroying Xykon, given how close they are...
if I had to pick one, I'd probably guess the MitD. Although Xykon does have influence over the MitD in the form of enchantment, at some point I think the MitD's "true nature" will conflict with any enchantment cast upon him. As of right now, I think it is totally within the realm of enchantment magic to get the MitD to

Eat Redcloak..
But sooner or later, Xykon will want the MitD to eat the order. Or O-Chul.

[AKA_Bait]

But sooner or later, Xykon will want the MitD to eat the order. Or O-Chul.

Not to mention we still haven't seen MitD acquire the necessary nutmeg. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html)

[innk]

So... V wins initiative after all.. and her choice is... hold monster? :smallfrown:

I'm kind of disappointed, why not a prismatic spray to hit them all? Or, what the hell, if the idea was to hold the dinosaur why not hit it with a disintegrate instead and have it done permanently? Would the dino survive it?

[Doug Lampert]

So... V wins initiative after all.. and her choice is... hold monster? :smallfrown:

I'm kind of disappointed, why not a prismatic spray to hit them all? Or, what the hell, if the idea was to hold the dinosaur why not hit it with a disintegrate instead and have it done permanently? Would the dino survive it?

Quite likely the dino would survive a disintigrate, it's got 196 HP on average (unbuffed and without any special advancement, note that the allosaur is pretty clearly an advanced model based on size, so expecting a bog standard mount for Tarquin is pretty optimistic).

It's got a +19 fortitude save as opposed to a +6 will save, which would YOU rather go up against.

V casting disintigrate probably has a DC of 21 or so, so we're in "only misses on a one territory" even vs. the weakest likely triceratops. And 5d6 of damage averages 17.5 HP, roughly 9% of what's needed, on a FAILED save V averages only 105 HP, which still won't kill the triceratops (unless it rolls a SECOND one on a save and fails the save due to massive damage).

Basically, V disintigrating the dino is very subotimal, if you're hoping for a miracle and have a disintigrate handy hit one of the riders (L and they can't catch you, T and they have no reason to catch you, M and they can't protect the dino from things like "hold" which actually work on it).

[innk]

Quite likely the dino would survive a disintigrate, it's got 196 HP on average (unbuffed and without any special advancement, note that the allosaur is pretty clearly an advanced model based on size, so expecting a bog standard mount for Tarquin is pretty optimistic).

It's got a +19 fortitude save as opposed to a +6 will save, which would YOU rather go up against.

V casting disintigrate probably has a DC of 21 or so, so we're in "only misses on a one territory" even vs. the weakest likely triceratops. And 5d6 of damage averages 17.5 HP, roughly 9% of what's needed, on a FAILED save V averages only 105 HP, which still won't kill the triceratops (unless it rolls a SECOND one on a save and fails the save due to massive damage).

Basically, V disintigrating the dino is very subotimal, if you're hoping for a miracle and have a disintigrate handy hit one of the riders (L and they can't catch you, T and they have no reason to catch you, M and they can't protect the dino from things like "hold" which actually work on it).


Hmm I see!

Nice thanks for the explanations, I was considering the dinos to be much less scarier since the order supposedly beat one so easily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0923.html) moments ago.. I thought it had absolutely no chance to survive a 1-shot kill against a high level wizard.

I think I was just really hoping to see V cast something ridiculously awesome since there was such a big threat of getting one shot killed by the other team..

[Benthesquid]

Hmm I see!

Nice thanks for the explanations, I was considering the dinos to be much less scarier since the order supposedly beat one so easily (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0923.html) moments ago.. I thought it had absolutely no chance to survive a 1-shot kill against a high level wizard.

I think I was just really hoping to see V cast something ridiculously awesome since there was such a big threat of getting one shot killed by the other team..

They didn't kill that one, though, AFAWK. Big Guy made some sort of combat maneuver (looks like Overrun+a bite attack), which succeeded, and then they were past it. V zapped it with something on the way past, but we don't see the effects of that.

Edit: I have no idea why, mechanically, the dinosaur is doing a somersault there. Possibly it is tumbling to avoid an attack of opportunity.

[Olinser]

Quite likely the dino would survive a disintigrate, it's got 196 HP on average (unbuffed and without any special advancement, note that the allosaur is pretty clearly an advanced model based on size, so expecting a bog standard mount for Tarquin is pretty optimistic).

It's got a +19 fortitude save as opposed to a +6 will save, which would YOU rather go up against.

V casting disintigrate probably has a DC of 21 or so, so we're in "only misses on a one territory" even vs. the weakest likely triceratops. And 5d6 of damage averages 17.5 HP, roughly 9% of what's needed, on a FAILED save V averages only 105 HP, which still won't kill the triceratops (unless it rolls a SECOND one on a save and fails the save due to massive damage).

Basically, V disintigrating the dino is very subotimal, if you're hoping for a miracle and have a disintigrate handy hit one of the riders (L and they can't catch you, T and they have no reason to catch you, M and they can't protect the dino from things like "hold" which actually work on it).

Unless V researched and is casting, 'V's Overly Eloquent Spell Of Reducing Things To Tiny Piles Of Dust But Requires A Charisma Save' :smallcool:

But on a more serious note, I can't help but notice Laurin is burning a LOT of PP very quickly.

Greater Teleport costs 15 PP - she appears to be using some variety of Gate, which technically isn't a Psion power, but her power should be using somewhere around 15-20 PP a cast, plus whatever spell she just used on Haley (probably around 10 PP), and the Disintegrate on Nale (11 PP). (Plus maybe a few for reading Nale's mind - she had the yellow glow on her, it may have cost 3-5 or something like that).

She has cast that Gate spell so far 4 times (once for the army, once for Miron/Kilkil, and twice for the Triceratops party).

So she's already burned somewhere around 85-115 PP, maybe more if the massive army-sized Gate portal cost more than the others since it was so much bigger.

That's an awful lot of PP with not a lot to show for it. Even if she's level 20 and has a high Intelligence score she can't have more than about 350-400 PP.

[Topus]

That's an awful lot of PP with not a lot to show for it. Even if she's level 20 and has a high Intelligence score she can't have more than about 350-400 PP.
It hasn't been showed, but there are objects you can tap to obtain PP.

[Deliverance]

Five arrows. Tarquin snatches two, two perforates Miron, and one goes 'dink' and is deflected off a small round transparent shield-effect of some sort rather than hitting Miron in the head.

It isn't the effect the Giant uses for Protection from Arrows (see e.g. 920), where they bounce off the person hit, so what is it that protects Miron here?

[Olinser]

Five arrows. Tarquin snatches two, two perforates Miron, and one goes 'dink' and is deflected off a small round transparent shield-effect of some sort rather than hitting Miron in the head.

It isn't the effect the Giant uses for Protection from Arrows (see e.g. 920), where they bounce off the person hit, so what is it that protects Miron here?

Could be a few things. Stoneskin is most likely, could also have been something like Mage Armor as well.

[Sir_Leorik]

Could be a few things. Stoneskin is most likely, could also have been something like Mage Armor as well.

Stoneskin would have protected him from most of the arrows; I think Mage Armor (Greater Mage Armor?) or Shield is the likelier culprit.

[zimmerwald1915]

Stoneskin would have protected him from most of the arrows; I think Mage Armor (Greater Mage Armor?) or Shield is the likelier culprit.
For what it's worth, I agree it's probably not stoneskin, but I don't think it's shield either. That spell looks different (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html) and if Miron had cast the spell back in Bleedingham (he certainly didn't cast it on-panel and had no particular reason to cast it off-panel before Tarquin roped him into chasing the Order), shield might have worn off by now.

[Deliverance]

I am pretty sure that both Shield and Mage Armor are supposed to be invisible - and that Shield, at least, even if it was visible would be larger than such a small disk? Then again, that's a question of artwork vs. SRD, and artwork wins every time in a visual medium like a comic, so perhaps I am wrong.

EDIT: Right, 861 shows us Shield which does fit the SRD description. Thanks. So definitely not Shield.

[Sloanzilla]

Assuming Miron is a full caster, he's probably got what, 90 hit points? (3 hp per level in 3.5 and buffed to 16 con). He probably took 30 damage or so there 2 (D8+D6+5) + twice Hayley's str bonus, if any.

The Order's decisions were actually not bad. Take out the low level will save monster and shoot one of the casters. Only error was the two arrows shot at Tarquin, but he may well have been catching arrows shot at Miron.

[zimmerwald1915]

Assuming Miron is a full caster, he's probably got what, 90 hit points? (3 hp per level in 3.5 and buffed to 16 con). He probably took 30 damage or so there 2 (D8+D6+5) + twice Hayley's str bonus, if any.
Assuming twenty-three levels of a caster class (to match his ECL with Malack's, assuming the latter was a lizardfolk vampire) your 16 Constitution (though there's no particular reason to believe this), and no other boosts to either Constitution or HP total, he'd have anywhere between 92 and 161 HP, 126 HP on average. Further assuming no DR or energy resistance, Haley would have done anywhere between 14 and 38 damage to him, 26 on average. Judging by the V v. Xykon fight, Rich tends, especially when dealing with spellcasters to either highball HP and lowball damage, or eyeball both HP and damage with no reference to HD and damage dice (the latter being much more likely).

In any case, Miron's look of mild annoyance as he pulls the arrows out is all the indication we need that he is nowhere near low on HP yet.

[Olinser]

Stoneskin would have protected him from most of the arrows; I think Mage Armor (Greater Mage Armor?) or Shield is the likelier culprit.

Stoneskin only gives 10/adamantine damage reduction. So the first one was going to do less than 10 damage (Haley probably rolled a 1), and the others did more than 10 and went through.

Mage armor is certainly a possibility, Rich may have just put the graphic to make it clear that magic was deflecting the spell.

Shield isn't very likely simply from the fact that he's right up against Laurin - there's no place for the Shield to actually manifest.

[Sloanzilla]

Has it been established somewhere that all six members have matching ECLs at this point? I figured they are all high level, but with no forced matching of ECL.

I'm in no way claiming he's at low hit points, but hitting a caster with 5 arrows on the first round would not have been a terrible move. Hayley needs to buy some dust of disappearance.

[zimmerwald1915]

Stoneskin only gives 10/adamantine damage reduction. So the first one was going to do less than 10 damage (Haley probably rolled a 1), and the others did more than 10 and went through.
Stoneskin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0792.html) doesn't manifest a force effect; the offending projectiles simply bounce off the character model. I'm leaning more and more towards mage armor because its duration would let it be cast well before we ever see Miron, and because it's a spell we haven't seen before. V can't cast it, Xykon uses an Epic version whose visual effect could be different, and I don't think any other caster has ever used it or referenced it.


Has it been established somewhere that all six members have matching ECLs at this point? I figured they are all high level, but with no forced matching of ECL.
It has not. But Tarquin's catching of two arrows simultaneously (i.e., within the same round) makes me - after months and months of denial - think he's Epic, and Malack at minimum had an Epic ECL. The math doesn't change much if you assume, say, Sorcerer 17, not that the math mattered much.


I'm in no way claiming he's at low hit points, but hitting a caster with 5 arrows on the first round would not have been a terrible move.
No, it wouldn't have.

[Sloanzilla]

that geek thread says Hayley has a str between 13-19, so assuming a composite str bow that matches the blind guy's str, that's another 3 damage or so a hit too.

[bguy]

The Order's decisions were actually not bad. Take out the low level will save monster and shoot one of the casters. Only error was the two arrows shot at Tarquin, but he may well have been catching arrows shot at Miron.

Since V won initiative though it probably would have made sense for hir to open with Power Word Stun. She could probably have neutralized either Laurin or Miron with that spell which would go a long way to evening up the odds. As it is I'm not sure what V expected to accomplish by taking out the triceratops. Even if TT didn't have the ability to get it moving again, they could simply start blasting the Order from long range.

Really I'm not clear why Roy is trying to disengage anyway. Even without taking into account Laurin's teleporting ability, all that trying to keep their distance from Tarquin does is turn the fight into an artillery duel where the Order is significantly outgunned. The Order has much better odds at melee range.

[AKA_Bait]

Really I'm not clear why Roy is trying to disengage anyway. Even without taking into account Laurin's teleporting ability, all that trying to keep their distance from Tarquin does is turn the fight into an artillery duel where the Order is significantly outgunned. The Order has much better odds at melee range.

Not sure I agree with that. Tarquin doesn't seem to be able to do much a long range. At close range he becomes a huge factor which is not relevant now.

[zimmerwald1915]

Since V won initiative though it probably would have made sense for hir to open with Power Word Stun. She could probably have neutralized either Laurin or Miron with that spell which would go a long way to evening up the odds. As it is I'm not sure what V expected to accomplish by taking out the triceratops. Even if TT didn't have the ability to get it moving again, they could simply start blasting the Order from long range.
Power word: stun has a hit point limit beyond which it does nothing. All of the Order's enemies in this fight are either high level (the humanoids) or have a bucket of hit points (the dinosaur). None had taken damage at the time V cast her spell. There was no particular reason to believe power word: stun would work at all.

Plus, it's a level 8 spell. I have no problem whatsoever with V husbanding her highest-level spells, particularly after what happened the last time she frittered them away precipitously.


Really I'm not clear why Roy is trying to disengage anyway. Even without taking into account Laurin's teleporting ability, all that trying to keep their distance from Tarquin does is turn the fight into an artillery duel where the Order is significantly outgunned. The Order has much better odds at melee range.
Running away is the Order's oldest and most successful stratagem. :smallbiggrin:

[Sir_Leorik]

Running away is the Order's oldest and most successful stratagem. :smallbiggrin:

The Order of the Stick: Running away from Encounters way above our recommended CR since strip #4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0004.html)!

:smallbiggrin:

[bguy]

Power word: stun has a hit point limit beyond which it does nothing. All of the Order's enemies in this fight are either high level (the humanoids) or have a bucket of hit points (the dinosaur). None had taken damage at the time V cast her spell. There was no particular reason to believe power word: stun would work at all.

Plus, it's a level 8 spell. I have no problem whatsoever with V husbanding her highest-level spells, particularly after what happened the last time she frittered them away precipitously.

Power Word Stun stills work on a target with up to 150 HPs. It's unlikely either Laurin or Miron has more than that amount.

And what exactly is V saving her higher level spells for if not for this exact type of situation? It doesn't do any good for V to be holding on to a bunch of high level spells if she gets disintegrated or paralyzed by an enemy spellcaster that she could have taken out if she had used one of her high level spells. V had an opportunity here to knock out half of TT's spellcasters right at the start of the battle and wasted it to take out an animal. She's just lucky that Laurin and Miron also largely wasted their opening round, so she has another chance to use it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Power Word Stun stills work on a target with up to 150 HPs. It's unlikely either Laurin or Miron has more than that amount.
Says you. Miron and Laurin could have been born with unusually high Constitutions. They could have boosted their hit point totals with feats or spells. They could have boosted their Constitutions with magic items or spells. Any or all of the above could be true. Why take the risk?

Besides, why even assume that V even has power word: stun prepared?


And what exactly is V saving her higher level spells for if not for this exact type of situation? It doesn't do any good for V to be holding on to a bunch of high level spells if she gets disintegrated or paralyzed by an enemy spellcaster that she could have taken out if she had used one of her high level spells. V had an opportunity here to knock out half of TT's spellcasters right at the start of the battle and wasted it to take out an animal. She's just lucky that Laurin and Miron also largely wasted their opening round, so she has another chance to use it.
Let's see, can we imagine any stupidly powerful personal enemies V has made over the course of the story so far, that she knows about, that might choose to take advantage of the opportunity represented by her using her level 8 and level 7 spells?

[innk]

Power Word Stun stills work on a target with up to 150 HPs. It's unlikely either Laurin or Miron has more than that amount.

And what exactly is V saving her higher level spells for if not for this exact type of situation? It doesn't do any good for V to be holding on to a bunch of high level spells if she gets disintegrated or paralyzed by an enemy spellcaster that she could have taken out if she had used one of her high level spells. V had an opportunity here to knock out half of TT's spellcasters right at the start of the battle and wasted it to take out an animal. She's just lucky that Laurin and Miron also largely wasted their opening round, so she has another chance to use it.


Totally agree.

I don't know that much of D&D mechanics to know exactly what V could´ve done so I won't argue much about it, but as a reader point of view it seemed like a really non optimal battle call..

This was the situation when V needed to be an AWESOME high level wizard somehow, not a situation to cast a 5th level spell on someone's horse..




Of course, I'm meaning that my expectations were that, by any means not that the plot is messed up :P
I'm guessing this isn't V's battle, so I doubt it will be resolved by hir...

[zimmerwald1915]

This was the situation when V needed to be an AWESOME high level wizard somehow, not a situation to cast a 5th level spell on someone's horse..
Why did it strike you as that kind of situation, and not, say, the kind of situation that demanded contributions from the whole team?

[innk]

Says you. Miron and Laurin could have been born with unusually high Constitutions. They could have boosted their hit point totals with feats or spells. They could have boosted their Constitutions with magic items or spells. Any or all of the above could be true. Why take the risk?

Besides, why even assume that V even has power word: stun prepared?


Let's see, can we imagine any stupidly powerful personal enemies V has made over the course of the story so far, that she knows about, that might choose to take advantage of the opportunity represented by her using her level 8 and level 7 spells?

V used Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html) to interrupt a couple of sub-plot mid level NPCs... why on Earth would she save it against 3 epic level characters 1 round away from 1 shooting someone?



edit


Why did it strike you as that kind of situation, and not, say, the kind of situation that demanded contributions from the whole team?

Because she is currently the most powerful/capable character on the team, who won initiative! :smallbiggrin:

[Silverionmox]

They should all hide behind Elan. He's the only one that Tarquin wants to survive.

[zimmerwald1915]

V used Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html) to interrupt a couple of sub-plot mid level NPCs... why on Earth would she save it against 3 epic level characters 1 round away from 1 shooting someone?
Because, due to the nature of the spell, power word stun is more likely to work on mid-level schlubs than it is against Epic characters. This is a problem all power word spells share, and probably why we've never seen V cast power word: blind. Which, incidentally, would be much more likely to work, and is a level lower.

[innk]

Because, due to the nature of the spell, power word stun is more likely to work on mid-level schlubs than it is against Epic characters. This is a problem all power word spells share, and probably why we've never seen V cast power word: blind. Which, incidentally, would be much more likely to work, and is a level lower.

Humpf :smallfrown:

You're probably right, I was just expecting to see some super fancy trick from V here.. most of this forum thread was about whichever spellcaster got to fire first could've easily be the winner/really ****up the other, and well, apparently V couldn't really do much could she?

[Sloanzilla]

Range caster arguments aside, if Chuck Norris, Mike Tyson and Bruce Lee were chasing me on a horse and my goal was to get away from them (not defeat them), I would probably also attempt to first stop their horse. She didn't know they had another wormhole- that's a full round of dinosaur movement in the opposite direction.

[zimmerwald1915]

Range caster arguments aside, if Chuck Norris, Mike Tyson and Bruce Lee were chasing me on a horse and my goal was to get away from them (not defeat them), I would probably also attempt to first stop their horse. She didn't know they had another wormhole- that's a full round of dinosaur movement in the opposite direction.
Zombie Bruce Lee on a horse

:smalleek:

[Sloanzilla]

"Zombie Bruce Lee on a Horse" would make an excellent name for a band

[Sir_Leorik]

Humpf :smallfrown:

You're probably right, I was just expecting to see some super fancy trick from V here.. most of this forum thread was about whichever spellcaster got to fire first could've easily be the winner/really ****up the other, and well, apparently V couldn't really do much could she?

The point is that paralyzing their mount, an Animal with a Will Save of +7, was a perfectly valid tactic. It forced Miron to waste his turn undoing what Vaarsuvius did, while Belkar turned the Allosaurus around and Haley used her Boots of Speed to make a Rapid Shot Full Attack on Miron. At that point Tarquin cheated revealed he has some Epic feat that lets him not only snatch two arrows a round, but snatch arrows that are targeting an adjacent character. Otherwise Miron would have taken hits from four of Haley's arrows, not two.

EDIT:

There is another thing V might decide to do: She could confer with Blackwing, and check if his bravado about saurian/avian relations extends to knowing how to speak to a Triceratops. If Blackwing says yes, V should cast Charm Monster on the Triceratops, and through their Empathic Link V and Blackwing should work together to get the Triceratops to throw Team Tarquin off and then trample them. Let's see Miron cast Greater Dispel Magic while threatened with an AOO from their former mount. :smallwink:

[Olinser]

The point is that paralyzing their mount, an Animal with a Will Save of +7, was a perfectly valid tactic. It forced Miron to waste his turn undoing what Vaarsuvius did, while Belkar turned the Allosaurus around and Haley used her Boots of Speed to make a Rapid Shot Full Attack on Miron. At that point Tarquin cheated revealed he has some Epic feat that lets him not only snatch two arrows a round, but snatch arrows that are targeting an adjacent character. Otherwise Miron would have taken hits from four of Haley's arrows, not two.

EDIT:

There is another thing V might decide to do: She could confer with Blackwing, and check if his bravado about saurian/avian relations extends to knowing how to speak to a Triceratops. If Blackwing says yes, V should cast Charm Monster on the Triceratops, and through their Empathic Link V and Blackwing should work together to get the Triceratops to throw Team Tarquin off and then trample them. Let's see Miron cast Greater Dispel Magic while threatened with an AOO from their former mount. :smallwink:

Considering the feat specifically says you catch an arrow with just 1 hand, it is not unreasonable to house-rule it that if you use both hands and take no other action, you can catch two arrows.

And he didn't snatch arrows that were going to hit Miron. Look at the comic- the 2 arrows were most definitely going to hit Tarquin. Haley was aiming at Miron, but Miron is hiding behind Tarquin (essentially using him as 'cover' if you will).

[137beth]

Considering the feat specifically says you catch an arrow with just 1 hand...
How are you determining the feat in question? Making it up? As far as I can see there's no reason to think it isn't a class feature of Tarquin's custom class, or an entirely homebrewed feat (considering you're suppose to homebrew epic feats...)
It doesn't specifically say anything--it isn't written.

[Olinser]

How are you determining the feat in question? Making it up? As far as I can see there's no reason to think it isn't a class feature of Tarquin's custom class, or an entirely homebrewed feat (considering you're suppose to homebrew epic feats...)
It doesn't specifically say anything--it isn't written.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Snatch_Arrows

[Menas]

There is another thing V might decide to do: She could confer with Blackwing, and check if his bravado about saurian/avian relations extends to knowing how to speak to a Triceratops. If Blackwing says yes, V should cast Charm Monster on the Triceratops, and through their Empathic Link V and Blackwing should work together to get the Triceratops to throw Team Tarquin off and then trample them. Let's see Miron cast Greater Dispel Magic while threatened with an AOO from their former mount. :smallwink:

I like this.

Here are some other possible tactics on top of that once they're dismounted:

- (Seen this suggested already) Have Durkon cloud form to L and then grapple and drain her without letting her turn her head around to see him. He could also attempt to dominate anyone who runs toward them to help.
- Revive Haley if possible so she can continue to harass M, as he's already proven to be susceptible to her attacks.
- Have everyone else take out Tarquin and let Elan run interference. Anytime Tarquin attacks, have Elan jump in his way. After Tarquin attacks and has to cancel his attack to avoid hurting Elan, have everyone else nuke him. Rinse and repeat until Tarquin goes down. Once Tarquin is down the rest of TT won't have any reason to continue fighting OotS unless it's to avenge a friend, but this was HIS idea that he insisted on over their objections.
- If Elan dies using this tactic it could very well end the battle in the OotS's favor also (seen this suggested already).

[bguy]

Says you. Miron and Laurin could have been born with unusually high Constitutions. They could have boosted their hit point totals with feats or spells. They could have boosted their Constitutions with magic items or spells. Any or all of the above could be true. Why take the risk?

Any of that could also be true as to the triceratops. Tarquin could have it buffed against mind altering spells or it simply could have made its saving throw. There's always going to be a risk of failure, but at least by targetting Laurin or Miron, V will be achieving something with a success.


Besides, why even assume that V even has power word: stun prepared?

Because we've seen her use it before, so we know V has it and typical preps it.

Anyway, if V doesn't have it prepared then she should have still attacked Laurin or Miron. Throwing a disintegrate at them (which V is bound to have a couple of prepared), is not quite as optimal as Power Word Stun since it allows a save, but it does at least still have the chance of a one hit kill on either of the casters.


Why did it strike you as that kind of situation, and not, say, the kind of situation that demanded contributions from the whole team?

Because the Order is being attacked by 3 very powerful opponents which is the time when you need to break out the big guns. (And there would still be plenty for the rest of the team to do even after V stunned one of the enemy casters.)


Because, due to the nature of the spell, power word stun is more likely to work on mid-level schlubs than it is against Epic characters. This is a problem all power word spells share, and probably why we've never seen V cast power word: blind. Which, incidentally, would be much more likely to work, and is a level lower.

A mid-level fighter can easily have about as many HPs as a high level caster. (Especially when the mid-level fighter in question is half-dragon which means a +2 racial bonus to its CON.) And anyway V had no way of knowing what Enor and Gannji's level were. She used the spell anyway, even with the chance it would fail, because it was an emergency situation, and it was the best spell she had available. The same is true here.


Range caster arguments aside, if Chuck Norris, Mike Tyson and Bruce Lee were chasing me on a horse and my goal was to get away from them (not defeat them), I would probably also attempt to first stop their horse. She didn't know they had another wormhole- that's a full round of dinosaur movement in the opposite direction.

The problem is you can't really ignore the ranger caster argument. What V did would be the equivalent of stopping Chuck Norris, Mike Tyson, and Bruce Lee's horse when Mr. Norris and Mr. Lee were also fully armed world champion snipers.


The point is that paralyzing their mount, an Animal with a Will Save of +7, was a perfectly valid tactic. It forced Miron to waste his turn undoing what Vaarsuvius did, while Belkar turned the Allosaurus around and Haley used her Boots of Speed to make a Rapid Shot Full Attack on Miron. At that point Tarquin cheated revealed he has some Epic feat that lets him not only snatch two arrows a round, but snatch arrows that are targeting an adjacent character. Otherwise Miron would have taken hits from four of Haley's arrows, not two.

But V just got lucky that Miron wasted his round casting Greater Dispel Magic on the triceratops instead of blasting V. There was certainly no urgent need for Miron to get the triceratops immediately back up and running. Thanks to Laurin TT can pretty much catch up to the Order at will, so Miron could have easily spent a round blasting V, then another couple of rounds quoffing healing potions to heal his own wounds, and then a round dispelling V's hold spell, after which they could resume chasing down the rest of the Order (which would now be down both V and Haley.) V's tactic thus only worked because Miron acted foolishly.

[FireJustice]

The point is that paralyzing their mount, an Animal with a Will Save of +7, was a perfectly valid tactic. It forced Miron to waste his turn undoing what Vaarsuvius did

Yeah, beats me why he did that.

would be smarter (by a lot) to use greater dispel on flying wizard (V).

I mean, they could teleport anyway, so distance wasn't a concern.


and i he knew they could teleport one more time, unlike V



buuut i see how it is.
the only way to the OotS win in those conditions is if their enemies pull their punches or comit begginers mistakes

[pendell]

Okay, so what does the OOTS do now?

It occurs to me that a man who can snatch two arrows in the same round is NOT a man I want to close to melee with if it can be avoided.

Sooo...

1) Run away. Yes, Laurin can just open a portal, but a round she spends opening a portal is a round she's not doing something else vicious and nasty.

2) Of all the targets, the triceratops probably has the lowest saves. Is there some way to one-round it? Or at least inflict damage on it? It occurs to me that they probably don't have any healing save potions with malack not around, so it may be possible to shut down the triceratops through attrition.

3) Can Miron be kept busy? I don't know how much juice he's packing, but if he's spending every round neutralizing the OOTS' latest hold monster or whatever that's another round he's not being offensively productive.

Any other ideas?

Also 4) Are psions really this overpowered? If so, why did we have a joke earlier about how useless they were in 3.5 E?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sloanzilla]

short range spells = 25 feet + 5 per two levels

Dinosaur's full round running move is, I'm assuming, 240 feet or so.

By the end of the round, you've cut off around 1/2 of each caster's options (short range and touch) even assuming she knew they were both ranged casters- and you are closing in on getting out of medium spell-casting range. They may have more transportation spells, but they also may not. In fact, V has no idea what they can do other than that someone in T's group obviously made one big portal.

Shooting out the tires is not a bad option, even with snipers in the car. Especially when you know the shot (in this case, a will save for a dinosaur) has a good chance of working.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also 4) Are psions really this overpowered?
Yes. Psion is a very strong class.


If so, why did we have a joke earlier about how useless they were in 3.5 E?
When was this? Before Laurin showed up, the last reference to psionics occurred when Redcloak was interrogating O-Chul, but that reference did not disparage psionics' power, but the uncertainty as to its presence in the setting. It was followed up by a joke at incarnum's expense, but psionics and incarnum are...distinct.

[Sloanzilla]

I kind of loved that he cast Greater Dispel Magic because it is one of the few spells that all 4 primary casting classes get- thus doing nothing to tell us what class he is.

[pendell]

When was this? Before Laurin showed up, the last reference to psionics occurred when Redcloak was interrogating O-Chul, but that reference did not disparage psionics' power, but the uncertainty as to its presence in the setting. It was followed up by a joke at incarnum's expense, but psionics and incarnum are...distinct.


That was what I was thinking of . IIRC, he was given the choice between more psionics and an 8-ball. He was conflicted as to which would be the better option. It's been awhile and I'm not at this time willing to devote the time to dig through the archive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ti'esar]

That was what I was thinking of . IIRC, he was given the choice between more psionics and an 8-ball. He was conflicted as to which would be the better option. It's been awhile and I'm not at this time willing to devote the time to dig through the archive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Actually, it was a choice between an eighteenth-level incarnum user, a magic 8-ball, and a bushel of fortune cookies - Redcloak ordered Jirix to "bring up the cookies and keep the 8-ball on standby." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

There is a strip in SSDT making fun of "Psteve the Psion" and his tragic demise, however.

[137beth]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Snatch_Arrows

1. 'dandwiki' is not, and has never been, a rules source for D&D rules.
2. Snatch Arrows happens to be the name of a feat from the PHB. Of course, there is virtually no reason to think that the feat Tarquin has just conveniently happens to be Snatch Arrows
3. In fact, there is a very good reason to think that Tarquin was not using the PHB Snatch arrows feat: he wasn't following the rules for that feat. It was most likely either a customized improved variant, or a class feature from the "Tarquin" class.

[Sloanzilla]

heh, "snatch arrows"

sounds like a style of vajazzling

[Menas]

1. 'dandwiki' is not, and has never been, a rules source for D&D rules.


I completely disagree. It has two sections, SRD and homebrew, and you can tell which is which. If you don't like the homebrew content, that's your call, but it's all based on core rules just like any other legitimate homebrew I've seen.

SRD is SRD.

[Emanick]

Actually, it was a choice between an eighteenth-level incarnum user, a magic 8-ball, and a bushel of fortune cookies - Redcloak ordered Jirix to "bring up the cookies and keep the 8-ball on standby." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

There is a strip in SSDT making fun of "Psteve the Psion" and his tragic demise, however.

And from what I remember, the strip was more making fun of how unoriginal psionics is ("like magic, but cooler!") than of how weak it is. As far as I know, OotS has never made fun of psionics for being a weak system. (And even the Psteve jab was probably aimed more at people and products who use the psionics system badly than the actual concept of the system.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

buuut i see how it is.
the only way to the OotS win in those conditions is if their enemies pull their punches or comit begginers mistakes

First, FAQ #7 (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7).

Second, just because you can think of a better action after spending five minutes on the problem doesn't make it plausible that someone should've come up with the same idea in the one second they actually have to decide what to do in the round.

Third, their purpose is to catch and kill the warrior. Killing the wizard does not further their purpose, especially if that gives the warrior time to get away.

Grey Wolf

[Mordae]

Third, their purpose is to catch and kill the warrior. Killing the wizard does not further their purpose, especially if that gives the warrior time to get away.

I think this is the crux of the position. Tarquin doesn't want to beat Elan's team, he wants to prove to Elan that he is better than the best hero Elan knows. Combined with earlier statements Tarquin's made regarding Greenhilt proving to be a wonderful challenge, I'm pretty sure his strategy is to get to one-on-one with Roy as quickly as possible.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, beats me why he did that.

would be smarter (by a lot) to use greater dispel on flying wizard (V).

I mean, they could teleport anyway, so distance wasn't a concern.


and i he knew they could teleport one more time, unlike V



buuut i see how it is.
the only way to the OotS win in those conditions is if their enemies pull their punches or comit begginers mistakes

On the contrary, Marion doing that proves V made a good call. It's also reasonable. That Allosaurous is moving fast. Fast enough that one round of movement basically got them out of effective combat range (so that they had to teleport instead)

That psion does not have unlimited teleports, and is likely going to run out soon as I imagine teleporting in an entire army takes more PP then just three people and their mount. So soon they won't have any way to keep up beyond their triceratops.

[Everyl]

On the contrary, Marion doing that proves V made a good call. It's also reasonable. That Allosaurous is moving fast. Fast enough that one round of movement basically got them out of effective combat range (so that they had to teleport instead)

That psion does not have unlimited teleports, and is likely going to run out soon as I imagine teleporting in an entire army takes more PP then just three people and their mount. So soon they won't have any way to keep up beyond their triceratops.

We're left to make a lot of assumptions about how Laurin's Wormhole power works, since it's not a published power in 3.X. To me, it looks like it's basically Psionic Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportationCirclePsionic.htm) with special effects to make it look like a 2e Wormhole. There are some differences - you can't see through a Teleportation Circle, and Laurin's power appears to be two-way - but that does set a benchmark to work with for how expensive it is to teleport an army an arbitrary distance using psionics. The answer: 17 Psi Points for as many soldiers as you fit through over the next 3+ hours.

I'm also open to the idea that all of Laurin's teleport powers look Wormhole-ish. It would make sense for the ones that pop open and closed long enough to let a triceratops and its riders to just be Psionic Teleport with fancy special effects. Even if she is burning 17 Psi Points per hop, though, Laurin's still at something like 75% of her total reserves. She can't do that forever, but she's in no danger of running out during this fight unless the Order pulls of some amazingly hardcore stalling tactics.

[coineineagh]

Ladies and gentleman! On one side of the desert we have:

6 heroic NPCs + entourage
and a wounded, charmed Allosaur

VS

3 high level enemies on a Triceratops

Place your bets now!

TBH, Rich has always surprised us with storyline, so I doubt anyone can accurately guess what happens. D&D stats matter, narrative NPC status matters, but it's still a toss up.:smallbiggrin:

[Tebryn]

Ladies and gentleman! On one side of the desert we have:

6 heroic PCs + entourage
and a wounded, charmed Allosaur

VS

3 high level enemies on a Triceratops

Place your bets now!

TBH, Rich has always surprised us with storyline, so I doubt anyone can accurately guess what happens. D&D stats matter, narrative NPC status matters, but it's still a toss up.:smallbiggrin:

Fixed that for you. The OoTS are PCs not NPCs.

[coineineagh]

Fixed that for you. The OoTS are PCs not NPCs.

Blame my gaming background for that slip of the tongue. In games, NPCs can be recruited, and effectively become the heroic PCs. Only the main character is referred to as the PC. Roy, in the example of OotS.

[Tebryn]

I've never really got why people think Roy is the main character of OoTS. Elan, Haley and to a lesser extent V and Durkon have had just as much screen time if not more (in the case of Elan) than him. Sure it's his backstory that started the whole comic but that doesn't make him the default main character.

[AKA_Bait]

2. Snatch Arrows happens to be the name of a feat from the PHB. Of course, there is virtually no reason to think that the feat Tarquin has just conveniently happens to be Snatch Arrows

What, other than the fact that he's snatching arrows?


3. In fact, there is a very good reason to think that Tarquin was not using the PHB Snatch arrows feat: he wasn't following the rules for that feat. It was most likely either a customized improved variant, or a class feature from the "Tarquin" class.

He was if he's epic and took infinite deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infinitedeflection).

[Koo Rehtorb]

I think the Giant has just stopped sticking to canon feats and starting homebrewing everything.

He catches two arrows because he has two hands free and it makes intuitive sense that he could deflect that many and no more.

[coineineagh]

I've never really got why people think Roy is the main character of OoTS. Elan, Haley and to a lesser extent V and Durkon have had just as much screen time if not more (in the case of Elan) than him. Sure it's his backstory that started the whole comic but that doesn't make him the default main character.
That can be debated, of course. The comic is named after the adventuring party which he leads. He is the decision maker. His will was the driving force to defeat Xykon even before it became clear it was a save-the-world quest.

And I think there was an old thread which kept count of appearances of each character in every strip. Despite being the dull straight man character, decision-maker Roy still had the most panel time. But that was before they entered the desert, so I don't know if it's outdated info now.

[Dracon1us]

"I want you to remember, Clark…in all the years to come…in your most private moments…I want you to remember…my hand at your throat…I want you to remember...the one man who beat you…"

If you haven't read the source for that line, you should.

In the hands of a sufficiently talented author, Batman could defeat Superman. Or Superman could defeat Batman. Authors get to choose the circumstances, the breaks, the "die rolls", the special equipment. Batman can always defeat Superman if the author wants him to, and if it's a good author he can do so in a highly satisfying manner.

simply the best of the best.
but the key in that fight is careful planning...something the OOTS doesn't have.

to win, the fight must become a brawl...mix it up.

roy must stall Tarquie until the 2 spellcasters are killed...than massacre ensures.

[Kornaki]

roy must stall Tarquie until the 2 spellcasters are killed...than massacre ensures.

Isn't the killing of 2/3rds of the enemy party the massacre? There's nobody left to kill at that point.

[Sir_Leorik]

Actually, it was a choice between an eighteenth-level incarnum user, a magic 8-ball, and a bushel of fortune cookies - Redcloak ordered Jirix to "bring up the cookies and keep the 8-ball on standby." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

There is a strip in SSDT making fun of "Psteve the Psion" and his tragic demise, however.

There's also a joke at Incarnum Users' expense in the bonus strips to SSDT. Psteve, however, is very powerful, the problem is that he Overchannels to such an extent that he leaves himself easy pickings. On the other hand, Vaarsuvius should have remembered that she had prepared Hold Monster earlier. Psteve's death was an avoidable tragedy. :smallfrown:


And from what I remember, the strip was more making fun of how unoriginal psionics is ("like magic, but cooler!") than of how weak it is. As far as I know, OotS has never made fun of psionics for being a weak system. (And even the Psteve jab was probably aimed more at people and products who use the psionics system badly than the actual concept of the system.)

Psteve was using his powers exactly the same way V was using her spells at that time: as a blunt instrument. In that regard, yeah there's no major difference between Psteve's powers and V's spells, except that she needs to prepare hers in advance, while he has a finite number of powers and power points, but can augment his powers (and Overchannel to make them even more powerful). But in terms of effect, the Psionic Dominate power and the Dominate Person spell are not different at all. That is what Rich was spoofing. That and urban fantasy trends where the hero has a mohawk, is covered in half a dozen tattoos, has pierced half a dozen visible body parts (and several that we'd prefer not to know about) and wears nothing but leather. Had Psteve been a robed, bearded, sage, or a stern faced young man wearing a linen vest and trousers and wooden clogs, he'd fit into the generic fantasy milieu of D&D much better. But Psteve (and his buddy Ialdabode) overdo it with the tats, the piercings, anachronistic hairstyle, and lots of crystals. By comparison, Laurin wears a simple robe and sensible shoes, and the Ioun Stones that float around her are a sign of station and power, not pretention.


I've never really got why people think Roy is the main character of OoTS. Elan, Haley and to a lesser extent V and Durkon have had just as much screen time if not more (in the case of Elan) than him. Sure it's his backstory that started the whole comic but that doesn't make him the default main character.

Let Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html) explain it to you. Or Eugene Greenhilt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html). Or Roy Greenhilt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html). I could keep going, but Roy is the main protagonist if this comic, with Xykon and Redcloak the main antagonists.

Elan's main issue was an Evil twin brother constantly seeking revenge on him. Otherwise, Elan was content to follow Roy, Haley or Hinjo. Durkon was sent on a mission decades ago, and found nothing better to do then hang out and adventure with his best friend in the Human lands, Roy Greenhilt. Haley's motivation was to raise money she needed to spring her dad from prison (and then steal the money back). She acquired a new motivation when she fell in love with Elan. Vaarsuvius' original motive was power. That's not a healthy motive for a protagonist to have; usually antagonists are the ones seeking power, and it often turns out bad for them. So V got the power she sought and she no longer has it. Instead she has placed a dead albatross around the necks of the Order of the Stick. As for Belkar, he never cared about the main plot, he's just here for the beer and pretzels (i.e. to kill stuff).

Roy is the primary protagonist, with V, Haley and Elan being secondary, Durkon tertiary, and Belkar barely qualifying for the term. Xykon and Redcloak remain the primary antagonists, with Sabine the sole remaining member of the original Linear Guild known to be alive and active, Team Tarquin vying to be a better one-shot villain than Samantha, and the IFCC lurking mysteriously in the background as the best secondary recurring antagonists in the comic.

[zimmerwald1915]

I've never really got why people think Roy is the main character of OoTS. Elan, Haley and to a lesser extent V and Durkon have had just as much screen time if not more (in the case of Elan) than him. Sure it's his backstory that started the whole comic but that doesn't make him the default main character.


That can be debated, of course. The comic is named after the adventuring party which he leads. He is the decision maker. His will was the driving force to defeat Xykon even before it became clear it was a save-the-world quest.

And I think there was an old thread which kept count of appearances of each character in every strip. Despite being the dull straight man character, decision-maker Roy still had the most panel time. But that was before they entered the desert, so I don't know if it's outdated info now.
That would be this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276152), which is quite current, and shows that Roy has far and away more appearances in-panel than any other character.

[Perseus]

Okay, so what does the OOTS do now?

It occurs to me that a man who can snatch two arrows in the same round is NOT a man I want to close to melee with if it can be avoided.

Sooo...

1) Run away. Yes, Laurin can just open a portal, but a round she spends opening a portal is a round she's not doing something else vicious and nasty.

2) Of all the targets, the triceratops probably has the lowest saves. Is there some way to one-round it? Or at least inflict damage on it? It occurs to me that they probably don't have any healing save potions with malack not around, so it may be possible to shut down the triceratops through attrition.

3) Can Miron be kept busy? I don't know how much juice he's packing, but if he's spending every round neutralizing the OOTS' latest hold monster or whatever that's another round he's not being offensively productive.

Any other ideas?

Also 4) Are psions really this overpowered? If so, why did we have a joke earlier about how useless they were in 3.5 E?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

4: Psions are on the same tier as Wizards... With slight optimization. But out of the box they are tier 2.

Though psions can do things like make a save point for the party (theoretically) soooo yes Psions are this overpowered and so far you have only seen mere stage magic compared to what she could potentially do.

Come a little closer V!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/decerebrate.htm

(One of my favorite powers)

Edit: I love it when my character says "Finish Him" and then uses that power.

[Matt620]

If Miron is a sorcerer, than the fact that he has Greater Dispel Magic and Baleful Polymorph is really bad for OOtS. One Greater Dispel Magic would wipe out Durkon, especially since, as far as I know, Durkon has no way to activate Malack's staff for the spell (They need command words, don't they?). Similarly, Baleful Polymorph would wreck utter havoc to V, the strongest member of their group. It has before. Not to mention Belkar and his terrible saves.

Laurin could easily take down Haley in that amount of time with more of those psionic blasts. Tarquin could take down Roy.

If Elan tries to interfere, I'm sure Tarquin wouldn't disagree if Miron cast Baleful Polymorph on him, as long as he dispelled it when he was done (GDM, as I recall, will automatically dispel any spell you cast)

[orrion]

I've never really got why people think Roy is the main character of OoTS. Elan, Haley and to a lesser extent V and Durkon have had just as much screen time if not more (in the case of Elan) than him. Sure it's his backstory that started the whole comic but that doesn't make him the default main character.

The main character in a story will often get some reduced screen time eventually, but everyone still knows who the main character is.

For example, Rand got reduced PoV time as the Wheel of Time series progressed (to the point of barely being in a few of them) but he was still undeniably the main character of the series.

We're still following Roy's quest, and Roy is the leader. He's the main character.

[Perseus]

If Miron is a sorcerer, than the fact that he has Greater Dispel Magic and Baleful Polymorph is really bad for OOtS. One Greater Dispel Magic would wipe out Durkon, especially since, as far as I know, Durkon has no way to activate Malack's staff for the spell (They need command words, don't they?). Similarly, Baleful Polymorph would wreck utter havoc to V, the strongest member of their group. It has before. Not to mention Belkar and his terrible saves.

Laurin could easily take down Haley in that amount of time with more of those psionic blasts. Tarquin could take down Roy.

If Elan tries to interfere, I'm sure Tarquin wouldn't disagree if Miron cast Baleful Polymorph on him, as long as he dispelled it when he was done (GDM, as I recall, will automatically dispel any spell you cast)

Belkar is still kicking a good fort save even without a con modifier or with a penalty. 14 + levels of ranger with a +2 from barbarian? Yeah fort should be the lease of...holy crap that would fulfill the prophecy if he fails his will save and thinks he is a bunny or whatever...

But Tarquin won't allow for a second baleful polymorph, it will get repetitive and lose dramatic effect :p

[Kornaki]

But Tarquin won't allow for a second baleful polymorph, it will get repetitive and lose dramatic effect :p

The rest of the story can be about Elan trying to level up so he can cast greater dispel magic and free the rest of his team. After that he would have to be the leader right?

[Perseus]

The rest of the story can be about Elan trying to level up so he can cast greater dispel magic and free the rest of his team. After that he would have to be the leader right?

Wait what?

Why would that be dramatic or good for the narrative? Actually Roy would still be the leader or did he lose that position after he was brought back from the dead?

[AstralFire]

Wait what?

Why would that be dramatic or good for the narrative? Actually Roy would still be the leader or did he lose that position after he was brought back from the dead?

The poster is summarizing Tarquin's perspective.

[Benthesquid]

Wait what?

Why would that be dramatic or good for the narrative? Actually Roy would still be the leader or did he lose that position after he was brought back from the dead?

Not if Roy was currently an adorable wombat after failing his save.

[Perseus]

Not if Roy was currently an adorable wombat after failing his save.

That doesn't help the narrative. And actually with how Elan thinks (which T understands better now), Elan would still consider Roy as the leader even if Roy failed his will save and became a wombat.

Even from Tarquins point of view it makes no sense. Because it will be repetitive to cast the same spell and thus there will be no drama in it. Tarquin wants Roy dead (most likely disposed of too) not hindered for a bit or he might as well said "I'm going to break his leg so that Elan can be the leader".

Cause you know, magical effects are just as easy as fixing a broken leg in d&d. Probably a standard action for the friendly vampiric cleric.

[DiamondHooHaMan]

here's how I call it.

Elan makes sure to do nothing the whole fight but stand between Tarquin and Roy, stopping any charges or attacks, then Roy can focus on whittling down one of the casters, and Durkon the other. Haley keeping up a pelting of arrows as extra distractions on Tarquin so it's even harder to engage the rest of the party.
meanwhile V can just be doing whatever the heck it is pissed off wizards with lots of spells can cast. (lightning bolt! disintegrate! another disintegrate! that rainbow beam spell thing I don't know the name of!)

Belkar can.... throw his daggers at Lin? maybe. I dunno.

[Filcher]

I am thinking that Tarquin has used a sizable number of soldiers and resources trying to change the narrative, and he does have a number of persons that would love to see him fall. He seems to have weakened his defenses elsewhere in a misguided attempt to make Elan the hero and himself the villan.

We start with Enor and Ganji, the bounty hunters, then there is Ian Starshine and Geoff who are hiding out in that general vicinity. We can go to Sabine, who has seen Tarquin kill her lover, and the IFCC who do have an interest in the Oots and in keeping them alive, intact and under the command of a strong leader. There is the woman (forget her name) who tarquin bedded and then invaded her realm, as well as the ambassador that cat woman killed a few strips ago.

Now, we have 3 members of the Tarquin party involved in a skirmish with Ooots, (they are away from armies and additional backup and thus more vulnerable than usual) that while hardly fitting opponents to Tarquin Miron and Laurin can provide momentary distraction and additional muscle for any of these people to use to exact revenge. I suspect that we will see someone appear to aid the Order.

[orrion]

I am thinking that Tarquin has used a sizable number of soldiers and resources trying to change the narrative, and he does have a number of persons that would love to see him fall. He seems to have weakened his defenses elsewhere in a misguided attempt to make Elan the hero and himself the villan.

We start with Enor and Ganji, the bounty hunters, then there is Ian Starshine and Geoff who are hiding out in that general vicinity. We can go to Sabine, who has seen Tarquin kill her lover, and the IFCC who do have an interest in the Oots and in keeping them alive, intact and under the command of a strong leader. There is the woman (forget her name) who tarquin bedded and then invaded her realm, as well as the ambassador that cat woman killed a few strips ago.

Now, we have 3 members of the Tarquin party involved in a skirmish with Ooots, (they are away from armies and additional backup and thus more vulnerable than usual) that while hardly fitting opponents to Tarquin Miron and Laurin can provide momentary distraction and additional muscle for any of these people to use to exact revenge. I suspect that we will see someone appear to aid the Order.

Why would any of those people be in the vicinity, and how would they have gotten there anyway?

Sabine is banished for 24 hours, so she's out.

Enor and Ganjii would have to be morons to stay in the Empire after escaping the arena.

The woman Tarquin wants to marry is alone without resources and is presumably back in a cell like the one Elan found her in.

There's no real evidence that Ian and Geoff are anywhere nearby, and it's been speculated that Geoff is an inside man, so why would he help anyway?

The ambassador is dead and we don't even know if his country of origin is aware of it yet, let alone had any time to rally an army and make any sort of impact. Even if they had, why in the world would they have followed Tarquin? If you were leading an army coming to attack and saw Tarquin take a gigantic army elsewhere, your first instinct should not be "OMG FOLLOW THEM." It should be "Well.. that guy just left his empire that I was coming to defeat undefended. I'll just take over it now. Thanks a lot, chump!"

[Havokca]

The woman Tarquin wants to marry is alone without resources and is presumably back in a cell like the one Elan found her in.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html - Captain Amun-Zora from the Free City of Doom.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html - Her city was overrun, but *someone* fired off a sending to her. Thus implying either that someone got away, or fired off the sending before dying. One of the two (and we don't know which).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html - Tarquin evades a lot of attacks (kind of to be expected since he's armoured and has boatloads of Dex), but she does land a hit, so she may actually have some levels.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html - And she left to contact her homeland quite some time ago (likely more than enough time to group up a small insurgent force if she's got a few casters)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html - She's an unknown and wants to kill Tarquin. We have no idea what she has access to, in terms of resources; Her city held out for 7 months against the weepies (do we know how big a force they usually use?) and she didn't need a sizeable force to tip the balance (just 500 low level soldiers).

I'd say it's unlikely that she'll show up... but she's far from a write off, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that she's back in a cell.

[orrion]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html - Captain Amun-Zora from the Free City of Doom.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0756.html - Her city was overrun, but *someone* fired off a sending to her. Thus implying either that someone got away, or fired off the sending before dying. One of the two (and we don't know which).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html - Tarquin evades a lot of attacks (kind of to be expected since he's armoured and has boatloads of Dex), but she does land a hit, so she may actually have some levels.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html - And she left to contact her homeland quite some time ago (likely more than enough time to group up a small insurgent force if she's got a few casters)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html - She's an unknown and wants to kill Tarquin. We have no idea what she has access to, in terms of resources; Her city held out for 7 months against the weepies (do we know how big a force they usually use?) and she didn't need a sizeable force to tip the balance (just 500 low level soldiers).

I'd say it's unlikely that she'll show up... but she's far from a write off, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that she's back in a cell.

Which brings us back to the other questions.. a) how would she have gotten there in the first place, and b) how did she manage to follow a few dinos with a group of 500 soldiers, c) if she had managed to do that, how could Tarquin and the rest of the army have been unaware of a force of that size in a gigantic open desert?

[mimhoff]

Tarquin betraying the nations he has promised to help is the normal part of the plan though. If they have done it right, Amun-Zora will be heading to the Empire of Sweat to ask for help from Laurin and Jacinda and... did we ever find out the name of their "ruler"?

[zimmerwald1915]

Tarquin betraying the nations he has promised to help is the normal part of the plan though. If they have done it right, Amun-Zora will be heading to the Empire of Sweat to ask for help from Laurin and Jacinda and... did we ever find out the name of their "ruler"?
Queen Shvitzer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), whose name is a play on the Yiddish for "to sweat."

EDIT: huh, looking at this strip again, I find it an odd coincidence that pauldron-guy's sword has a pale orange blade. Perhaps "Rob Redblade" isn't as offhand a comment as it seemed?

[Olinser]

Queen Shvitzer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html), whose name is a play on the Yiddish for "to sweat."

EDIT: huh, looking at this strip again, I find it an odd coincidence that pauldron-guy's sword has a pale orange blade. Perhaps "Rob Redblade" isn't as offhand a comment as it seemed?

CLEARLY, the 6th member of the party is, in fact, the sword itself. It lay dormant until some poor schmuck picked it up and allowed the sword to possess him, and now he hangs with Tarquin attempting to free his sword brethren and take over the world from the puny meatbags.

[David Argall]

I am thinking that Tarquin has used a sizable number of soldiers and resources trying to change the narrative, and he does have a number of persons that would love to see him fall. He seems to have weakened his defenses elsewhere in a misguided attempt to make Elan the hero and himself the villan.

We start with ... and the IFCC who do have an interest in the Oots and in keeping them alive, intact and under the command of a strong leader.
The IFCC is being kept so mysterious that just about anything can be claimed as their plan. But they seem to be under major limits on acting on the material plane. They are almost certainly effectively helpless in the current situation, and when they are able to act at all, an army would make no difference.



There is the woman (forget her name) who tarquin bedded and then invaded her realm,
Tarquin's next wife tried to kill him, and Tarquin did not bother to counterattack. Eventually he got bored and just ordered his guards to subdue her. To the best of our knowledge, she is currently without friends [and almost certainly nowhere near the rift]. As a danger to Tarquin, she ranks way, way down there.



I suspect that we will see someone appear to aid the Order.
Our author loves surprising us, and we thus can not rule out even the unlikely, but this is still the story of the Order of the Stick. They are the heroes who do all the heroics, and NPCs coming to the rescue is not going to happen at all often.

[Havokca]

There are still a lot of unknowns (which lodge this firmly in the "unlikely, but not impossible" category), but here goes:


a) how would she have gotten there in the first place?

Gotten where? Back to her people, or to TT?

Back to her people - Riding, presumably. How much time has elapsed since the showdown with Nale in the abandoned part of the palace? How long did it take for Durkon and Belkar to retrieve V from the demiplane of Ranch Dressing? V did have time to complete some sort of side-quest while there... but the response-half of a sending ritual means that she doesn't actually have to get back to her people to coordinate any actions against TT.

To TT - She knows exactly whom she hates (good ol' Tarquin and --somewhat misguidedly-- Elan). A few divination spells and some teleportation, and they could be there in a flash.


b) how did she manage to follow a few dinos with a group of 500 soldiers?

The 500 soldiers were Tarquins; They trashed her city. She states here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html) that she's going to contact her homeland. We've no idea what forces her homeland consists of.


c) if she had managed to do that, how could Tarquin and the rest of the army have been unaware of a force of that size in a gigantic open desert?

Nothing says it's a gigantic force. Could be a small strike team. And if that strike team is getting to Tarquin by magical means, nothing says they have to have even LEFT yet. And all this wormholing around has left OotS and TT some distance from TT's army.

Again, boatloads of ifs and maybes ... but still well within the realm of possibility.

It all depends on what "her homeland" consists of... if it's a few hundred/thousand NPC-class characters and the odd L2 caster... then she's irrelevant. Throw in even one caster of a slightly higher level, though, and she could arrive at *just* the right time to make things a bit more chaotic.

[Topus]

I'm sorry if it has been already cleared, nut i can't find it, so i'd like to know if the ioun stones surrounding Laurin have been identified.
Maybe the orange is the +1 level caster (even if it's usually a prism), but i can't identify the other two (assuming they were ioun stones).

EDIT: ok, i found the discussion about ioun stones (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298737), using the spell "google". Sorry to bother.

[137beth]

I completely disagree. It has two sections, SRD and homebrew, and you can tell which is which. If you don't like the homebrew content, that's your call, but it's all based on core rules just like any other legitimate homebrew I've seen.

SRD is SRD.

The SRD is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35). Not on "dandwiki".


CLEARLY, the 6th member of the party is, in fact, the sword itself. It lay dormant until some poor schmuck picked it up and allowed the sword to possess him, and now he hangs with Tarquin attempting to free his sword brethren and take over the world from the puny meatbags.
That's outrageous! It's obvious that the 6th member of the party is actually Tarquin's whip:smalltongue:

[orrion]

Nothing says it's a gigantic force. Could be a small strike team. And if that strike team is getting to Tarquin by magical means, nothing says they have to have even LEFT yet. And all this wormholing around has left OotS and TT some distance from TT's army.


I have faith that Rich is not going to dues ex machina a magical strike force in to save the Order.

[zimmerwald1915]

I have faith that Rich is not going to dues ex machina a magical strike force in to save the Order.
I agree. But I see a difference between a strike force sent from the Formerly-Free City of Doom to assassinate Tarquin and a strike force sent from, say, the Elven Lands to the middle of the desert for Thor knows what reason.

[orrion]

I agree. But I see a difference between a strike force sent from the Formerly-Free City of Doom to assassinate Tarquin and a strike force sent from, say, the Elven Lands to the middle of the desert for Thor knows what reason.

How would they even find them, anyway? If I were Tarquin I'd have had a magical item made to protect from scrying by now.

[zimmerwald1915]

How would they even find them, anyway? If I were Tarquin I'd have had a magical item made to protect from scrying by now.
You also, I hope, wouldn't burn a couple dozen slaves to make a sign, or keep slaves in the first place, or endorse or prop up a slave system. What you would do in Tarquin's place and what Tarquin does do not necessarily have to correspond.

[Havokca]

I have faith that Rich is not going to dues ex machina a magical strike force in to save the Order.

A few panels were wasted in her dialogue with Nale. More than would have been required in order to simply know that she escaped. Enough panels that she's either:

going to be part of this encounter
going to be part of a future encounter
a red herring

[Olinser]

How would they even find them, anyway? If I were Tarquin I'd have had a magical item made to protect from scrying by now.

Because she's pissed and looking for Elan first, who has no protection from scrying.

[Havokca]

Because she's pissed and looking for Elan first, who has no protection from scrying.

Correct, and she hates Tarquin for double-crossing her *and* Elan for getting in between them when she tried to attack Tarquin.

EDIT: All this is to say that it's not really a Deus Ex Machina; There's nothing unexpected about her coming to try and kick the asses of both Tarquin and Elan. She's an unresolved plot element with a hate-on for both of them, and would undoubtedly wield whatever resources are left of her homeland in extracting revenge for its fall.

The question really isn't whether or not she'll show up to inconvenience Tarquin and/or Elan, but rather when she'll show up (and, to some extent, with what forces and by what means).

[orrion]

Correct, and she hates Tarquin for double-crossing her *and* Elan for getting in between them when she tried to attack Tarquin.

EDIT: All this is to say that it's not really a Deus Ex Machina; There's nothing unexpected about her coming to try and kick the asses of both Tarquin and Elan. She's an unresolved plot element with a hate-on for both of them, and would undoubtedly wield whatever resources are left of her homeland in extracting revenge for its fall.

The question really isn't whether or not she'll show up to inconvenience Tarquin and/or Elan, but rather when she'll show up (and, to some extent, with what forces and by what means).

Except that this arc has been set up to be a showdown between Tarquin and the Order. A third party jumping in to save the day using means we've never been informed of them having access to (scrying, teleportation, a strike force capable of taking Tarquin out) in the middle of said showdown is definitely a dues ex. This plot needs to be resolved by the Order and Tarquin.

As for scrying Elan instead.. that's a little contrived, don't you think? She manages to scry Elan during the only, what, 10 or 15 minutes he's been near Tarquin lately?

We've been getting no hints whatsoever that a 3rd party is ready to or even has the means to step in.


A few panels were wasted in her dialogue with Nale. More than would have been required in order to simply know that she escaped. Enough panels that she's either:

going to be part of this encounter
going to be part of a future encounter
a red herring


What exactly tells you she's has the potential to be a part of THIS encounter, other than generalizing to the point of absurdity?

[Havokca]

Except that this arc has been set up to be a showdown between Tarquin and the Order.

I think it's more set up to lead to Tarquin's defeat. The best way for him to be defeated right now is for him to somehow lose everything and live out the rest of his life as a nobody; Forever forsaken by the plot.

In his mind: if he kills Roy, and Elan steps up as leader, he wins. If he gets killed in a blaze of glory against his son's party, he wins. If he lives out the next 30 years of his life as a (behind the scenes) king, he wins.

In which case it's far more likely (for giving us all the plot-y goodness of him getting his just deserts) that he is unable to kill Roy, his team is either killed or deserts him, and the shell-game falls apart.

EDIT: And there has been some foreshadowing that people are starting to get wise to the shell game. Which could mean that a NUMBER of people suddenly crash the party.


A third party jumping in to save the day using means we've never been informed of them having access to (scrying, teleportation, a strike force capable of taking Tarquin out) in the middle of said showdown is definitely a dues ex. This plot needs to be resolved by the Order and Tarquin.

I'm not sure I agree. I'll grant you, that if Amun-whatsername shows up with a dozen epic-level friends all riding ancient dragons… then yes… Deus ex. Not so much if she shows up with just enough to turn the tide.


As for scrying Elan instead.. that's a little contrived, don't you think? She manages to scry Elan during the only, what, 10 or 15 minutes he's been near Tarquin lately?

Not if her first thoughts on escaping were to tag the "low hanging fruit" and kill Elan before killing Tarquin. In that case, she's had quite a bit more time (possibly days, depending on how long it took them to fetch V from the demiplane of ranch dressing).


We've been getting no hints whatsoever that a 3rd party is ready to or even has the means to step in.

I'll concede that it's unlikely (been conceding that since I brought it up, really). However, the hint was when she said that she had to return to her homeland before fulfilling her vow to see Tarquin's blood on her sword. That's a hint.

(Unless the entire purpose of her dialogue with Nale was just to give Nale the opportunity to say "here's my card")


What exactly tells you she's has the potential to be a part of THIS encounter, other than generalizing to the point of absurdity?

Simple: She was setup to recur after the last time we saw her. This encounter is after the last time we saw her. So it's not impossible.

I'm just tossing out hypotheticals, and there's no reason why she couldn't show up (other than the fact that it may not be as dramatic… unless she does show up with some heavy hitters and decides that she wants to off both Tarquin and Elan)… but she did vow to have Tarquin's blood on her sword. If that's going to happen, it'll have to be before he dies… and the general consensus seems to be that he's going to die before the end of the book.

Personally, my money's on the following:


TT has no ranged spells of note (or they'd have used them on V by now)
V and Haley maintain range and snipe Miron and Laurin (that and a number of people think V is planning something using portals and electricity)
Tarquin tries to go for Roy, but Elan runs interception and Tarquin won't kill him, but nor can Roy lay into Tarquin
This goes on until one of two things happen:
Tarquin loses it, goes full offense, and his entire team is taken down (ie. he, Miron and Laurin die, or Laurin and Miron desert him and he dies), or
Tarquin realizes he can't get what he wants without killing Elan, and he backs out. TT return to whence they came only to find that it's been conquered (since he took a large chunk of the army away), and he's ousted from his group for making such poor business decisions.
Belkar dies (or becomes Durkula's thrall)

[Taelas]

I think it's more set up to lead to Tarquin's defeat. The best way for him to be defeated right now is for him to somehow lose everything and live out the rest of his life as a nobody; Forever forsaken by the plot.

In his mind: if he kills Roy, and Elan steps up as leader, he wins. If he gets killed in a blaze of glory against his son's party, he wins. If he lives out the next 30 years of his life as a (behind the scenes) king, he wins.
While once he might have found meaning in dying at the hands of a random hero, he now wants Elan to do the job. If someone else from the Order kills him -- like, say, Roy -- I very much doubt he would see it as a "win."

There's no way Tarquin would live quietly as a nobody. He'd find a way to claw himself back to power. The only way to end his threat is to kill him. He's much too clever and genre-savvy to be left to rot somewhere.

The way to do that is to kill him and not let anyone know. Let him have disappeared without a trace, preferably with as many members of his party as possible. If Team Tarquin were to vanish, their empire would crumble into dust immediately, as their patsies would no longer work together.

And I doubt Jacinda and the pauldron-wearing sixth member could run it on their own, anyway; each of the non-casters in Team Tarquin were teamed up with a caster (Miron and Shoulder-Pad Guy, Jacinda and Laurin, Malack and Tarquin), most likely for magical (and psychic) intra-team communication.

[Havokca]

While once he might have found meaning in dying at the hands of a random hero, he now wants Elan to do the job. If someone else from the Order kills him -- like, say, Roy -- I very much doubt he would see it as a "win."

There's no way Tarquin would live quietly as a nobody. He'd find a way to claw himself back to power. The only way to end his threat is to kill him. He's much too clever and genre-savvy to be left to rot somewhere.

The way to do that is to kill him and not let anyone know. Let him have disappeared without a trace, preferably with as many members of his party as possible. If Team Tarquin were to vanish, their empire would crumble into dust immediately, as their patsies would no longer work together.

And I doubt Jacinda and the pauldron-wearing sixth member could run it on their own, anyway; each of the non-casters in Team Tarquin were teamed up with a caster (Miron and Shoulder-Pad Guy, Jacinda and Laurin, Malack and Tarquin), most likely for magical (and psychic) intra-team communication.

I suppose it's just a question of what outcome would marginalize him more? You're right, death is the likely answer there… but maybe the Giant has something else up his sleeve?

[innk]

Ha!
Finally! That's what I was talking about some strips ago! Prismatic spray the hell out of everyone instead of lighthing bolt, hold monster and all that low level stuff :P

[AKA_Bait]

Ha!
Finally! That's what I was talking about some strips ago! Prismatic spray the hell out of everyone instead of lighthing bolt, hold monster and all that low level stuff :P

Indeed. I think we may also start seeing Laurin and Miron take the kid gloves off as well.

[Matt620]

Indeed. I think we may also start seeing Laurin and Miron take the kid gloves off as well.

I sure hope so, the V vs. Z battle was fun to watch. V vs. Miron would be even more fun, and I'd like to see what other psionics Laurin has in her repetoire

[mimhoff]

EDIT: And there has been some foreshadowing that people are starting to get wise to the shell game. Which could mean that a NUMBER of people suddenly crash the party.



I'm not sure I agree. I'll grant you, that if Amun-whatsername shows up with a dozen epic-level friends all riding ancient dragons… then yes… Deus ex. Not so much if she shows up with just enough to turn the tide.

Not if her first thoughts on escaping were to tag the "low hanging fruit" and kill Elan before killing Tarquin. In that case, she's had quite a bit more time (possibly days, depending on how long it took them to fetch V from the demiplane of ranch dressing).

I'll concede that it's unlikely (been conceding that since I brought it up, really). However, the hint was when she said that she had to return to her homeland before fulfilling her vow to see Tarquin's blood on her sword. That's a hint.

(Unless the entire purpose of her dialogue with Nale was just to give Nale the opportunity to say "here's my card")

Simple: She was setup to recur after the last time we saw her. This encounter is after the last time we saw her. So it's not impossible.

I'm just tossing out hypotheticals, and there's no reason why she couldn't show up (other than the fact that it may not be as dramatic… unless she does show up with some heavy hitters and decides that she wants to off both Tarquin and Elan)… but she did vow to have Tarquin's blood on her sword. If that's going to happen, it'll have to be before he dies… and the general consensus seems to be that he's going to die before the end of the book.

I disagree here, I think Amun-Zora has served her narrative purpose, and that was to be the victim of the shell game. It would seriously diminish the reputation of TT if the only in-comic demonstration of their amazing plan in fact backfired.

What makes her different from the others the Empire of Blood has betrayed in the past?

[Kornaki]

What makes her different from the others the Empire of Blood has betrayed in the past?

The fact that two different high level adventuring parties then showed up and started mucking about and causing trouble, including letting her go free?

[Kish]

It would seriously diminish the reputation of TT if the only in-comic demonstration of their amazing plan in fact backfired.

However, there might also be a down side.


What makes her different from the others the Empire of Blood has betrayed in the past?
While Tarquin is certainly forced a number of his wives to marry him, I doubt he's forced an ambassador from every country he's "offered to help" to marry him.

If Amun-Zora had the anatomy required for anyone Tarquin would recognize as a potential threat, Amun-Zora would not have survived her (er, his) attempt to kill Tarquin.