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Shikton
2007-01-02, 08:46 AM
Okay, personally I love console RPGs more than anything, my favourite series being Suikoden, which imo beats the doodoo out of the FF series. The storyline, recurring characters, plot twists and turns, the plethora of characters to recruit... Not to mention the music and general mood of the games! Muy loveable!

But what about everyone else? Do you have any love for console RPGs at all? Favourite games?

Artanis
2007-01-02, 12:14 PM
I'm a big fan of Chrono Trigger....but that's hardly a rarity :smallwink:

Unfortunately, I never had enough money to own more than a few games per console generation, so I haven't had very many console RPGs :smallfrown:

WampaX
2007-01-02, 12:43 PM
Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana, and Atelier Iris 2: The Azoth of Destiny were both pretty fun.

Xenogears was pretty good and Xenosaga pt1 was okay, but I still haven't gotten into pt2 or 3, despite buying them.

Chrono Cross and Chrono Trigger were both a blast, for me.

Okage: Shadow King is an odd little RPG, like playing a Game designed by Tim Burton.

Outside of those, I tend to stick with the SRPGs more than the RPGs. Disgaea, Front Mission, Final Fantasy Tactics, Phantom Brave, Saiyuki: Journey West, Tactics Ogre (Ogre Tactics), etc.

Shikton
2007-01-02, 12:57 PM
Ah yes, Xenogears! I have that too. Well, not my copy, a friend's copy, but I've had it for ages now. Maybe I'll replay that someday. Great story there, and I love the gear fights and unlocking combos and everything.

I have Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana. Got stuck on that unicorn boss thing, and that just made me drop the whole game. :P I'm a 'sword' loser ;)

I bought Xenosaga 3, but I haven't finished it. It's pretty good though, so you should consider getting a hold of it.

Tom_Violence
2007-01-02, 02:35 PM
Atelier Iris: Eternal Mana, and Atelier Iris 2: The Azoth of Destiny were both pretty fun.

Xenogears was pretty good and Xenosaga pt1 was okay, but I still haven't gotten into pt2 or 3, despite buying them.

Chrono Cross and Chrono Trigger were both a blast, for me.

Okage: Shadow King is an odd little RPG, like playing a Game designed by Tim Burton.

Outside of those, I tend to stick with the SRPGs more than the RPGs. Disgaea, Front Mission, Final Fantasy Tactics, Phantom Brave, Saiyuki: Journey West, Tactics Ogre (Ogre Tactics), etc.

What's an SRPG?

WampaX
2007-01-02, 02:48 PM
What's an SRPG?

Refers to Strategy RPG. Battles usually take place on a tactical map and are turn based (you go, then enemies go). You usually have a core group of characters, but some games allow you access to a large array of unit types.

Erfworld is a comic based in an SRPG world.

JabberwockySupafly
2007-01-02, 04:31 PM
I'm expecting a lot of blank stares when I mention one of my favourite RPG serieses...eseseseseses...es...


Ys


Yes, two letters, and yet still better gameplay (and music! yes, I will throw down that the composer for Ys, Yuzo Koshiro, is better than Nubuo Uematsu, or at least his equal.) than most games. Not saying I don't like other console games. I played .hack until my eyes bled from sleep deprivation, I'm playing FFIII on the DS right now and I mean literally right now (finally, a proper translation!), and I'm waiting to buy Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth for the PSP as well. As for Disgaea? I refuse to play it again. That game sucked my life away. It should be illegal to have a game be that bloody fun :)
Another series unmentioned: Shin Megami Tensei. Unique. Breathtaking. Stunning. and the best one word description: Demons!
You summon,control, recruit, or become, powerful demons and devils in these games. The name itself loosely translates to Digital Devil Story/Saga.

As for Ys, it's on the PC and the PSP &P PS2, made by a company called Nihon Falcom. It was originally on PC, NES, SNES and Genesis way back in the day, but they have been remaking the old games and really improving them. It's kind of like a platformer action/RPG, and man do the boss fights shine! Also, the music is positively brilliant. Don't believe me? Check out the trailer for the latest installment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6zl0xmb8ek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6zl0xmb8ek)

Now the problem with these games is save for the ones on PS2 & PSP, all the remakes and new games are solely in Japanese. You don't have to read the story to enjoy the game, but it really, really helps :)

Oh, in case anyone can't tell I'm a hardcore gamer :) Sorry if this scares you. I'm not rich and I'm not bragging, I literally scrimp and save most of my money to buy new games and game systems because aside from my wife, games (this includes D&D!) are my life. Ewwww...That rhymed. Bad poetry! Bad!


Cheers
JS

DeathQuaker
2007-01-02, 05:25 PM
I love the Suikoden series as well, for the stories and setting. There are gameplay aspects of it (as with many console RPGs) which irritate me, but I find them worth dealing with to play the story. Suikoden Tactics was kind of lame though.

I was playing Shadow Hearts: Covenant not too long ago and that is also very good. It's a neat setting, sort of a fantasy version of World War I, and the characters are well-written.

What I hate about console RPGs--specifically JRPGs--is random @#$#%!! encounters. I got bored and tired of those back in, oh, 1988 or so. Nothing like artificially extending the length of a game by having "invisible" Cute Bouncy Blobs and Giant Fetuses In Wheels jumping out and sucking you into a combat screen every three steps you take. Blech. I about... well, let's just say I got very excited... when I saw my friend playing Final Fantasy XII and saw that all monsters were "Real time" on the same screen as everyone else. THat'll ensure I get it, in fact. 'Bout damn time they started doing that. If they did that in the next Suikoden I think I'd be happy for the rest of my life.

I've found that CRPGs also have a bad habit of really badly, obviously railroading plot. If they're going to force me in one direction, don't give me the illusion of choice (PCRPGs do this too, but of those I've played, not quite as badly as some CRPGs). One bad example was in Suikoden I, where you meet a guy who "wants to serve you tea." He's obviously seedy and up to something, but if you refuse him, the conversation just cycles over and over until you accept the tea, causing you to fall asleep and have your stuff stolen. Very annoying.

But despite those irritations, I've played some games with stories, characters and concepts that really rock the mind. Good stuff. Usually like the graphics a lot too. Music usually leaves something to be desired (we're in an advanced electronics age; we can have music that doesn't sound like a canned synthesizer now), but visually those games just blow me away.

Shikton
2007-01-02, 05:56 PM
Tactis is just a sidestory thing of Suikoden 4, and it was incredibly dull. S4 was a bore in itself (due to all the naval crap), so what else to expect from a Tactics game based on it? Personally I rate the best ones as 1, 2, 5, 3, 4. That order. I dunno what it is about S1 I like so much, but I do know that whenever I play it I can't put down the controller. :P And you have the Champion rune in Suikoden. Equip that, and voila, no more random encounters. ^_^

Shadow Hearts is a good series too. Gotta love turning into a demon and ripping people apart in an altered form! MASSACRE! =D

Another CRPG *I* enjoyed is Azure Dreams. I know, I know...it was just a town and a tower where you could hunt monster eggs. But no matter how simple it was I still liked it, and I play it from time to time today.

Mr. Moon
2007-01-02, 08:27 PM
The Champions serries. (Champions of Norath and Champions: Return to Arms) I like the first one a little more, but I haven't beaten Return to Arms yet, so there you go.

There are seven races in Return to Arms, five in Norath. Both of them have the basic classes: Barbarian Warrior, Wood Elf Ranger, High Elf Cleric, Erudite Wizard and Dark Elf Shadowknight. The later one has two more advanced classes, which I can't quite recall at the moment. One is a giant wild cat that throws axes and walks on it's hind feet, the other is a lizardy shaman. The plot in Norath may seem simple at first: Quell the orc and goblin army and defeat their leader, but about five plot twists later it.. well, I won't spoil it for you. Let's just say, alot of them surprised even me, who loves to throw in random plot twists when I'm GMing role-plays.

Tom_Violence
2007-01-02, 08:34 PM
Refers to Strategy RPG. Battles usually take place on a tactical map and are turn based (you go, then enemies go). You usually have a core group of characters, but some games allow you access to a large array of unit types.

Erfworld is a comic based in an SRPG world.

I suspected as much. I'd just never heard the term before.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-02, 09:52 PM
Tactis is just a sidestory thing of Suikoden 4, and it was incredibly dull. S4 was a bore in itself (due to all the naval crap), so what else to expect from a Tactics game based on it?

I actually oddly liked Suiko IV... maybe because it was the first one I played (I then went back and played I-III). The sea travel part IS awful, but I liked the idea of your stronghold being a ship. I also liked the characters--people say there's no character development but I actually liked what of it there was.

The main problem with Tactics was that the battles became enormously cumbersome as you got more powerful... rather than pit you against a few strong enemies, they pitted you against TONS... and you had to wait for each and every one to take their freaking turn. The story was also lacking, but mostly because it was easy to get lost in your sidequests and forget what it was you were supposed to be doing. :smallsigh:


Personally I rate the best ones as 1, 2, 5, 3, 4. That order. I dunno what it is about S1 I like so much, but I do know that whenever I play it I can't put down the controller. :P

Dunno. I think I like III best, with V a close second. II and IV tied for next, and I last. Not that any of them were bad, mind you, in my mind, and S1 was a great game for its time... I think I just didn't quite get into the hero or some of the main characters as much. It was also a pretty short game... good for replay value though, in that sense.


And you have the Champion rune in Suikoden. Equip that, and voila, no more random encounters. ^_^

Yeah, but by the time you find the freaking thing, you've already been through the worst of them. No point, really.

[quote]Shadow Hearts is a good series too. Gotta love turning into a demon and ripping people apart in an altered form! MASSACRE! =D

It is oddly satisfying, in a very visceral way. :smallbiggrin:

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-05, 02:11 PM
I'm dissapointed to not see any love for the Shin Megami Tensei (released in the USA on the PS1 as the "Persona" series, I think, and henceforth referred to as "Megaten" for brevity) here. I've played three of them, and from what I've seen the series has been going since the SNES. I hope the Wii's VC can deliver on officially translated versions of those, but chances are woefully slim.

My first one was Nocturne (released in Europe as "Lucifer's Call"). Game play is all about hiring demons, kind of like "Pokemon that eat people." In all honesty, it should be "Pokemon are like Megaten demons that don't eat people" since Megaten had that mechanic first, but I digress... What really pulled me in is that it's not about saving the world, since it's effectively destroyed within the first twenty minutes of gameplay. You're completely free to choose between several different paths, none of which are really a choice between "good" and "evil." You can do that if you want, but most vary more on the lawful-chaotic axis. It's a very dark game with characters that just ooze personality, though they don't get nearly enough screentime to be properly fleshed out. Gameplay is solid and strategic, and most of all BRUTAL. If the main character (nameless) dies, it's game over. There are instant a lot of instant death spells. Some work about 75% of the time if you don't protect yourself against them. So, yeah. Brutal. I love a game that's willing to kick my @$$ once in a while. The game needed voice acting really, really badly, and the characters needed more focus, but otherwise a stellar game.

Next was the Digital Devil Saga games. I've never seen so many diverse environments that are almost completely gray. The game looks and sounds wonderful, and the voice acting is superb. The plot is deep, dark, and wears its "M" rating proudly. Instead of collecting demons, you get a group of five characters that transform into demons with different elemental advantages. It's not quite as difficult as Nocturne since the one-hit game-overs are gone, but it's still really hard and strategy focused. The characters are deep and, in spite of thier absurdly strange circumstances, very believable, and the complex plotline was very well done. Currently my favorite consol game of all time.

The second DDS game was a bit of a dissapointment, simply because it failed to live up to the build-up from the first game. Combat and the skill/spell system are tweaked a bit (for the better) but it's otherwise the same game. The characters and voice acting are still well done, but the plotline just seemed a bit of a letdown after the first game, and a lot is left unexplained. Still, a good end to a good series.

SMT: Devil Summoner was in my Christmas haul. I'll post more about that one when I get done with FFXII.



Aside from Megaten, I give cudos to the many CRPGs that I've played and loved, in no particular order: Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, FF I, IV, VI, VII, IX, X, XII, and Tactics, Golden Sun I and II, Disgaia I and II, Phantom Brave, Kingdom Hears I and II, Wild ARMs I and III, Star Ocean II and III, Bahamut Lagoon, Breath of Fire II, Earthbound, Lufia II, Seiken Densetsu II (Secret of Mana) and III, Secret of Evermore, Super Mario RPG, Xenogears, Fire Emblem (No subtitle, for GBA, main characters were Eliwood, Hector, and Lyn), Harvest Moon, Uncharted Waters II, the .Hack games, and I'm pretty sure I missed a few but I'm sure they'll forgive me.

ElfLad
2007-01-06, 10:11 PM
IWhat I hate about console RPGs--specifically JRPGs--is random @#$#%!! encounters. I got bored and tired of those back in, oh, 1988 or so. Nothing like artificially extending the length of a game by having "invisible" Cute Bouncy Blobs and Giant Fetuses In Wheels jumping out and sucking you into a combat screen every three steps you take. Blech. I about... well, let's just say I got very excited... when I saw my friend playing Final Fantasy XII and saw that all monsters were "Real time" on the same screen as everyone else. THat'll ensure I get it, in fact. 'Bout damn time they started doing that. If they did that in the next Suikoden I think I'd be happy for the rest of my life.

I've found that CRPGs also have a bad habit of really badly, obviously railroading plot. If they're going to force me in one direction, don't give me the illusion of choice (PCRPGs do this too, but of those I've played, not quite as badly as some CRPGs). One bad example was in Suikoden I, where you meet a guy who "wants to serve you tea." He's obviously seedy and up to something, but if you refuse him, the conversation just cycles over and over until you accept the tea, causing you to fall asleep and have your stuff stolen. Very annoying.

But despite those irritations, I've played some games with stories, characters and concepts that really rock the mind. Good stuff. Usually like the graphics a lot too. Music usually leaves something to be desired (we're in an advanced electronics age; we can have music that doesn't sound like a canned synthesizer now), but visually those games just blow me away.


Ever played Tales of Symphonia or Tales of the Abyss? Both are awesome action RPGs with no random encounters and a lot of good sidequests.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-06, 10:27 PM
Baten Kaitos Origins is an excellent, excellent game on a console known for it's lack of good RPGs. If you can get past the stigma of it being a "card" game (which actually makes the combo-based battle system a lot more interesting than the traditional Final Fantasy clone), it's terrific. Even its numerous clichés (http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html) are presented in an entertaining manner. Also, best Plot Twist Of Doom ever.

The first Baten Kaitos (this one is a prequel), is also good, although the voice acting is horrendous, and I've never played more than an hour or so personally.

As to the classics, my favorites are Chrono Trigger and (<- obviously) Final Fantasy III/VI. Unlike most FFVI fans, apparently, I also enjoyed VII, though it is the source of several unfortunate stereotypes. Cloud is the Drizz't of Console RPGs, and Sephiroth their Raistlin.

The Orange Zergling
2007-01-06, 11:02 PM
Well, most of the time I play CRPGs for a few days... get stuck REAL early on... abandon them... buy new CRPG... lather rinse repeat.

However, I think I'm making slight progress in Final Fantasy VII. The graphics both suck and rock at the same time, and the variety of things you can do is astounding. Especially seeing as it came out about ten years ago. I dont like the characters too terribly much... but the plot is interesting, and y'gotta love the Mako Reactor music.

Also, the Legacy of Kain series is superb from what I've seen so far... still, I'm not very far. At all. Combat is interesting, as is the plot. Speaking of the plot, it seems to be the only series where they planned out the entire thing BEFORE making sequels! The characters are also deep.
One of my only complaints is the uncontrollable camera. *twitches*

Tengu
2007-01-07, 07:40 AM
Legacy of Kain are great games indeed, with a surprisingly deep plot... but are they RPGs? I always thought they are action games (and considered them a prime example of action games that are not stupid). Pity that Defiance is probably the last part though. I'd love to see the grand finale of this story...

As for console RPGs (I mostly played the SNES ones):
FF 1-9 and Tactics - I think I do not have to say a word about the quality of those games... well, FF2 (japanese) is quite bad, FF4 didn't age very well, and FF8 is not that good for a FF game... means that the next not-so-perfect FF game will be 16, if following the trend.
Chrono Trigger - was a monster who didn't like this game ever born?
Seiken Densetsu 2 and 3 - 2, otherwise known as Secret of Mana, is a good game... but 3 is even more! They are especially fun if you play'em with a friend, or two.
Tales of Phantasia - this game is awesome! The only think I dislike about it is the horribly high random encounter rate.
Star Ocean - no wonder they never released it in the US, lawyers would swarm like flies in a second... the first part of the game is great, but it goes worse at the end, and it's also horribly short.
Lufia 2 - playing it currently, and having a blast. A whole lot of puzzles, secrets and riddles makes the dungeons in this game interesting and much more challenging then the usual "go through the dungeon fighting random encounters and collecting treasure on the way, up to the boss" route.

Hmm, it really is hard to find a bad console RPG...

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-07, 01:05 PM
Hmm, it really is hard to find a bad console RPG...You sure? You know that list I wrote up before? I could make a list almost as long as that of ones I didn't like if you wanted.

Just as with any genre, there are plenty of bad RPGs. It's just that since this is still a niche audience relative to platformers/shooters/sports/ect. games, bad RPGs tend to fall into obscurity. A few really good ones go that way as well, but MOST bad RPGs you've just never even heard of.

Baldknight
2007-01-07, 01:33 PM
A couple of favorites on different platforms.

Playstation
Final Fantasy VII and VIII, I loved these games and racked up over 100 hours on each when they came out. I prefered VII of the two as it had a better story although VIII had better graphics and gorgeous FMVs.

Vandal Hearts, one of the first strategy RPGs I played and a a lot of fun.

Breath of Fire III, I loved this game, fishing was fun and so was turning into a different dragons.

Playstation 2
Final Fantasy X, my second favourite RPG of all time. The skill system was clever, the story and characters were interesting and I wasted so much time playing it trying to beat all the dark aeons.

Shin Megami Tensei: Lucifers Call, lots of fun collecting demons and mixing them up to make new ones. Graphics weren't the best but it was a very intersting story.

Gamecube
The ultimate and best console RPG of all time, Skies of Arcadia Legends. It's got pirates, flying battleships and giant monsters what more could a game need. I still feel sad that I sold my Gamecube becaues I loved this game so much.

Reinforcements
2007-01-07, 03:48 PM
Console RPGs, let's see... as someone who never owned a PS1 I know I missed out on a lot... and I owned a Super Nintendo but never got all that many games for it, so there you go. Jeez, what have I played?

I have a strong love/hate relationship with the Final Fantasy series - that is, I love the good ones and I hate the intense fandom that builds up around the mediocre ones (I'm glaring angrily at you, Final Fantasy VII). FFVI remains one of my favorite all-time games, though, and FFXII is the best one in a long time. I've played Tactics Advance but not the original Tactics (which I understand is a darn shame). Advance is okay, but it's marred by the stupid law system and the stupid characters. It is the only Final Fantasy game I ever finished, though.

I've played - and subsequently returned - Disgaea 2. I wanted to like it, I really did, but there's just too much there. It paralyzed me, and I couldn't bring myself to play it.

Secret of Mana is, of course, awesome and Sword of Mana is, of course, ****ing terrible. I doubt anyone will dispute me on that.

Tales of Symphonia (the only Tales game I've played) was really good, although I did kinda lose interest halfway through. I got to a part where I didn't know where to go and just never played it again. Oh, well. Tales of the Abyss does look cool, though.

Oh yeah, the Breath of Fire series. I've only played 1 and 2 - BoF2 is one of my favorite RPGs, but BoF1 is just meh.

That's about it. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

The Orange Zergling
2007-01-09, 12:16 AM
Legacy of Kain are great games indeed, with a surprisingly deep plot... but are they RPGs? I always thought they are action games (and considered them a prime example of action games that are not stupid). Pity that Defiance is probably the last part though. I'd love to see the grand finale of this story...

I consider them an RPG series, but I see where you're coming from.

JabberwockySupafly
2007-01-09, 01:32 AM
I'm dissapointed to not see any love for the Shin Megami Tensei (released in the USA on the PS1 as the "Persona" series, I think, and henceforth referred to as "Megaten" for brevity) here. I've played three of them, and from what I've seen the series has been going since the SNES. I hope the Wii's VC can deliver on officially translated versions of those, but chances are woefully slim.


Umm... I mentioned Megaten if you didn't read my original post :)



Cheers
JS

Proven_Paradox
2007-01-09, 05:55 AM
Yes, but one person isn't enough dammit! Megaten deserves MORE!

... I did miss your translation though, and it's incorrect. Straight from Atlus's site:


Shin Megami Tensei (pronounced "shin MEH-gah-mee TEN-say") is a Japanese phrase that translates as "True Goddess Metempsychosis." An unusual piece of philosophical jargon, "metempsychosis" refers specifically to the unending process of birth, death, and rebirth that is of central importance to the Buddhist religious tradition.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-09, 09:21 AM
I like most console RPGs but I have gotten tired of the 20 minute cut scenes you can't skip past. so lately I stick to computer rpgs and console adventure/action games.

Setra
2007-01-09, 09:30 AM
I am a huge Console RPG Fan... though my favorites are hard to pin down..

Probably Xenogears, or Shadow Hearts.

Though I've played over 100 of them :smallamused:

Mr. Moon
2007-01-09, 04:53 PM
A couple of favorites on different platforms.
Playstation
Final Fantasy VII and VIII, I loved these games and racked up over 100 hours on each when they came out. I prefered VII of the two as it had a better story although VIII had better graphics and gorgeous FMVs.

Vandal Hearts, one of the first strategy RPGs I played and a a lot of fun.

Breath of Fire III, I loved this game, fishing was fun and so was turning into a different dragons.

You forgot the best one! Final Fantasy IX. That has to be the best game I've ever played. I'm looking for a copy. I've found some on Amazon, and now I'm just trying to get the money for it.

X15lm204
2007-01-09, 07:06 PM
Poor FFX never seems to get any love from anyone but me. It may not be the best Final Fantasy (I've only played X, VII, and I), but it certainly deserves more credit as an excellent game than everyone gives it. X-2, of course, would be best off joining all those E.T. cartriges in some dump, and whoever came up with the idea needs to be shot in the kidney.

Of all the SRPGs I have ever played, Fire Emblem: Blazing Swords (released in the US without the subtitle, but that's the accepted translation) takes the cake as both best and most frustrating. So...many...playthroughs...Must...get...every...su pport...576 turns in...w-what is that pirate do...NINO!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Best of all RPGs, though, and currently my vote for best game of all time (just beating out the first Halo and Starcraft: Brood War), is Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2. Sure, it was buggy and things were missing, but the 149 hours I have put into the game are truly the most sublime part of my life.

Tengu
2007-01-09, 08:00 PM
Argh, how could I forget about Earthbound! The game with new age retro hippies, annoying old party revelers, and a dungeon builder who loved dungeons so much he became the dungeonman! Well, combat got tedious a bit after a long streak of encounters, but at least you can avoid them in one way or another.

I've heard many good about the Shin Megami Tensei games from a friend. If only I could lay my hands on one of them...

On a slightly offtopic note, I think that people interested in console RPGs will enjoy this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pNzFE8rNPQU

Ryuuk
2007-01-09, 08:40 PM
Hehe, I remember that video. I've had the gun wielder miss from point blank plenty of times as well, but I'd hardly call the healer useless.

I'm finding myself to be a bigger fan of Turn Based Stategy RPGs then regular ones. I got both Disgaea 2 and Final Fantasy XII over the holidays, and Disgaea spent much more time in my PS2.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-10, 03:14 AM
I've been replaying Final Fantasy VIII lately. I originally disliked this game for the junction system, the random-ass plot for the latter half of the game, and that annoying, screen-hogging bastard of a main character. I did finish it, though, and returned to it when I realized I couldn't remember anything that happened between the first Dollet mission and the last dungeon.

Now that I'm playing it again, it occurs to me that I was somewhat too harsh. The Junction system isn't all that bad thing. It has some major flaws (in terms of exploitability, grinding, and the fact that it discourages you from actually using all those damn spells) that make it worse than most of the other FF games, but it's better than, say II's.

The other two problems were connected: I zoned out of the plot sometime in the middle of Disc 2 (where, let's face it, the writers just stopped trying) and therefore failed to notice that Squall, **** though he was, was getting so much attention because under all the plot holes and deus ex machina, it's a story of personal development and maturity. The supporting characters still needed more screentime, though.

Maybe that's why FFVI is still my favorite. There is no main character.

Charity
2007-01-15, 06:12 AM
Anyone played Star Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Ocean_(video_game)) I bought it for my wife, I was wondering if I got the right thing. (I am under strict instruction not to play it)

The Dirge
2007-01-15, 06:25 AM
I once played a weird game i think was a SRpg called 'the hunter' or just 'hunter' for ps1. Anyone else heard of it? Its was sort of futuristic in a dark a grundgy sort of way.

Charity
2007-01-15, 06:48 AM
I've got that game!
It is a bit odd, almost like playing a board game, I haven't seen it in years, so I may have chucked it out.
high move FTW i recall

The Dirge
2007-01-15, 08:19 AM
Good to see someone else has played it! All I can rememeber is that I was a punk with a hand that folded down to shoot lasers and after you got the special item on the board the hunter would appear and kick ass.

Charity
2007-01-15, 11:59 AM
Hence the requisit big move, it was a pretty tricksome game as it goes, though I'd struggle to call it a RPG.

The Dirge
2007-01-15, 06:22 PM
There was some RPG elements, leveling up, finding items, buying/selling items... Those are all things that make it just an RPG in my book

Edit: Sweet! This post made me a 'halfling in the playground'

wrath
2007-01-19, 11:44 AM
I am surprised no one mentioned Dragon Quest VIII. Akira Toriyama (of Dragonball fame) designed characters, great music by Koichi Sugiyama, classic old school Console RPG mechanics and a great story well voice-acted.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-20, 02:38 AM
Funny, I always considered Akira Toriyama to be "of Chrono Trigger fame."

And for some reason, despite being mecahnically almost identical, Dragon Quest never made it as big as Final Fantasy here.

CannibalGnome
2007-01-20, 10:54 AM
Recently (i.e.-previous two years) I've enjoyed Jade Empire and the KOTOR(s). I've played a bit of FFX (blech) and FFVII(enjoyed it), yet my JRPG gaming has been inhibited by a lack of a PS1/PS2.

The Geomancer
2007-01-21, 10:39 AM
Earthbound on the SNES is the best console rpg ever, maybe even the best RPG ever. Ness is one hardcore Gangsta. Besides its only RPG where you can fight Scalding Hot Cups of Coffee or New age Hippies.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-01-21, 02:41 PM
Recently (i.e.-previous two years) I've enjoyed Jade Empire and the KOTOR(s). I've played a bit of FFX (blech) and FFVII(enjoyed it), yet my JRPG gaming has been inhibited by a lack of a PS1/PS2.
If you have a Gamecube, check out Tales of Symphonia/the Abyss (those are the Gamecube ones, right?), Skies of Arcadia, and Baten Kaitos/Baten Kaitos Origins. Barring a few quirks (like the first BK's horrendous voice acting), they're all great, and even somewhat original (gasp), JRPGs.

ElfLad
2007-01-21, 02:46 PM
Tales of the Abyss is only for the PS2. It's still a very good game.

Hannes
2007-01-21, 03:09 PM
Well...Final Fantasy 3, ALTHOUGH I never get to finish it because someone keeps overwriting my saves (Yes I'm pointing at you, sister). And... Bahamut Lagoon.

The Dirge
2007-01-21, 04:46 PM
Which final fantasy had the guy with the machinegun hand?

The Orange Zergling
2007-01-21, 04:48 PM
Final Fantasy VII, if Barret is who you're thinking of.

The Dirge
2007-01-22, 07:05 AM
I think your right

Shikton
2007-01-22, 07:28 AM
Anyone played Star Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Ocean_(video_game)) I bought it for my wife, I was wondering if I got the right thing. (I am under strict instruction not to play it)

Played it, loved it, and I bet it's right up her alley. I also want Star Ocean 2, but haven't gotten around to clutching my claws around it yet... FFVII is the best FF game out there. VIII was too dull, and you could go through the entire game just running away from monsters and still clean the floor with the last boss. Why? Because the mobs level up right alongside you. Meh.

slipnslide
2007-02-01, 05:52 PM
Recently (i.e.-previous two years) I've enjoyed Jade Empire and the KOTOR(s). I've played a bit of FFX (blech) and FFVII(enjoyed it), yet my JRPG gaming has been inhibited by a lack of a PS1/PS2.

did you know they are releasing a jade empire: special edition in february exclusively for the PC. it looks to be just like the orginial but with a bunch of enhancements like new weapons and monsters and advanced combat too. i also read somewhere they are adding an extra difficulty level. cant wait for this to come out.

Deaddude
2007-02-01, 06:05 PM
My all time favorite has gotta be Morrowind. But right now I'm playing The legend of heros for the PSP, BTW its WAYY better than the new Final Fantasy 3 for the DS.(in my opinion)

Lawful_Stupid
2007-02-01, 07:26 PM
The "Tales of" series is good. Symphonia got me into the series, Legendia was "meh" at best, and Abyss is awesome. It's good to see a main character who's a complete jerk for once, and Free Run is a miracle. And Mieu and Dist are some of the best characters in an RPG.

I consider Zelda to be an RPG; you grow stronger as you go, you get better weapons, etc. I've played them all, except those 3. We shall not speak of them, for they have brought shame unto Link.

Skies of Arcadia is awesome incarnate. Cupil, flying ships, pirates, ship vs ship battles... really, it's the best RPG. Period. It desperately needs a sequel. Sega, stop making bad Sonic games (*CoughHeroesand360HedgehogCough* and make SoA2 already.

Other various RPGs I've played are various Final Fantasies, all pre-GBA Pokemon games except Crystal (considering Diamond/Pearl for nostalgia's sake, and the Grass-type Turtle is awesome), Aetlier Iris 1, all the Mario RPGs, and many others that I have forgotten.

ElfLad
2007-02-01, 10:51 PM
The "Tales of" series is good. Symphonia got me into the series, Legendia was "meh" at best, and Abyss is awesome. It's good to see a main character who's a complete jerk for once, and Free Run is a miracle. And Mieu and Dist are some of the best characters in an RPG.

Very much seconded. Except I'd say Symphonia is a better all-around game than Abyss, although Abyss beats Symphonia in spades in a few select areas. And replace "Mieu" with "Guy."


Skies of Arcadia is awesome incarnate. Cupil, flying ships, pirates, ship vs ship battles... really, it's the best RPG. Period. It desperately needs a sequel. Sega, stop making bad Sonic games (*CoughHeroesand360HedgehogCough* and make SoA2 already.

Also seconded. Really, one of the only flaws in this game is the uber-high random encounter rate. Characterization is a bit shallow, but it's still well-done. I'd like to have more party variety, because as it is, you're pretty much forced to keep the same three party members in all the time and switch out number four.

What I loved about it is that it's an RPG where the protagonist doesn't have to go into an angst attack every thirty minutes. That feature has made a great deal of post-SNES RPGs simply unplayable for me, and it's just not there in Skies of Arcadia. I really prefer the Tales system of fighting, but Skies of Arcadia takes turn-based fighting and makes it funner than, "Hey, look at all the menus," which a lot of turn-based RPGs just can't do. Ship battles were hardcore win.

jng2058
2007-02-02, 04:01 PM
Y'all make me feel old.

Since my more modern favorites (Chrono Trigger, FFVII/X, Front Mission III/IV, Xenosaga, etc) have pretty much been covered allow me to delve somewhat into the ancient past...

Lunar: Silver Star Story - A great story, with characters you actually come to care about, and a great escalation from mundane problems to world threatening...you start off just trying to figure out how to hock a diamond, and end up saving the world. Feels very much like an anime series, in fact. Track down the PS1 remake, it expands the story and adds to the graphics with some decent anime-esque cut scenes.

Phantasy Star IV - Last of the great old school PStar games, and now available in the Sega Genesis collection. With an enjoyable story that builds on the history of the previous games and excellent graphics for the time, it was the creme de le creme of Genesis RPGs.

Dark Wizard - A Sega CD SRPG that's a smidge more S than RPG, it nevertheless featured multiple storylines depending on which character you played as, the ability to equip and level up your characters and monsters, and a wonderful music score, this is probably the best CRPG that almost no one's ever played.

Shining Force II - The middle child of the series, this game improved on what was good about Shining Force (multiple characters, good strategic battles, RPG style leveling and exploration) and added more of everything, better graphics, but managed to avoid the failings of its successor, Shining Force CD.

Breath of Fire II - My personal favorite of the Breath of Fire games, notable above and beyond the the fact that you can turn into a badass dragon, but also for an excellent plot branch near the end.

Lufia II - Puzzle RPG, similar to the Wild Arms series in play style, where you get various tools along the way and have to puzzle your way through various dungeons, all the while fighting off the hordes of monsters. Also notable for having the balls to have your entire party die at the end of the game in a noble sacrifice. (Technically a spoiler, but how many of you reading this are willing/able to track down an old SNES game anyhow?)

You can probably find some of these as ROM Emulations out in the wilds of the net, while Lunar and PStar IV are findable as PS1 and 2 games respectively.

TheTick
2007-02-02, 04:08 PM
Lufia II rocked, though the ending sucked if you had played the beginning of Lufia I. ;)

Tengu
2007-02-02, 04:40 PM
. Also notable for having the balls to have your entire party die at the end of the game in a noble sacrifice. (Technically a spoiler, but how many of you reading this are willing/able to track down an old SNES game anyhow?)

Argh! I'm playing this game right now! Those forums have the spoiler feature for a reason, you know.

jng2058
2007-02-03, 01:17 AM
Argh! I'm playing this game right now! Those forums have the spoiler feature for a reason, you know.

Dude, there's an age limit on spoilers. The game's been out there for ELEVEN YEARS, and the "spoiler" was shown in the beginning of Lufia 1 around FOURTEEN years ago. That's like putting a Spoiler Warning on Vader being Luke's dad, Old Yeller getting shot, and Spock dying...some things can be assumed to no longer warrant protection, or else the use of the warning fades to insignificance.

Personally, I go with the Five Year Rule. If its older than five years, it ain't a spoiler anymore. This one was more than twice that, and if you'd played Lufia I, you already knew it going in. Whereas, if I'd said about NWN2 that they do the exact same thing and kill off your whole party at the end of the game without the Spoiler Shield(tm), then I'd agree that it was over the line.

Nevertheless, my apologies if this hurts your gaming experience...it was not my intention.

But I would strongly recommend that you tread with care in threads like these if you're currently playing an old game, because most people (myself included) aren't going out of their way to protect against things that are over a decade old.

Tengu
2007-02-03, 11:29 AM
Don't worry, it didn't hurt me much - I've drank a potion and the wound's gone now.

I think that apart from age, popularity is also important in determining if something is a spoiler or not - it's not a spoiler that Romeo and Juliet die, but it would be a spoiler to write about how does Titus Andronicus end, for example.

Artanis
2007-02-03, 12:15 PM
Dude, there's an age limit on spoilers. The game's been out there for ELEVEN YEARS, and the "spoiler" was shown in the beginning of Lufia 1 around FOURTEEN years ago. That's like putting a Spoiler Warning on Vader being Luke's dad, Old Yeller getting shot, and Spock dying...some things can be assumed to no longer warrant protection, or else the use of the warning fades to insignificance.
Spock DIES?

WHY GOD? WHY DOST THOU MOCK ME SO? *breaks down sobbing*

:smalltongue:

Pepper
2007-02-03, 06:19 PM
I am surprised no one mentioned Dragon Quest VIII. Akira Toriyama (of Dragonball fame) designed characters, great music by Koichi Sugiyama, classic old school Console RPG mechanics and a great story well voice-acted.

I completely agree.

Having been a console rpg junkie since colecovision, and having faithfully endured every incarnation of the classic RPG formula up to Dragon Quest 8.

DQ8 is hands down the most fullfilling console rpg i have ever played. It has everything that i came to enjoy from the formulaic console formula, plus gorgeous graphics, and, wait for it....

THE ABILITY TO SKIP OVER EVERY TEDIOUS PART!!!

no more wandering through fifty random encounters to get to town. No more ten minute click fests to heal up the party and buy items. Magic "zoom" spells when i dont want to walk.

And it lets me powerlevel on slimes to my hearts content. Its truly the culmination of this style of rpg, and im loving every minute of it.

jng2058
2007-02-03, 10:16 PM
Spock DIES?

WHY GOD? WHY DOST THOU MOCK ME SO? *breaks down sobbing*

:smalltongue:

There, there...he comes back from the dead too!! Oh wait, have I said too much? :smallbiggrin:

DArKandEViL
2007-02-05, 07:53 PM
Valkyrie Profile 2 and Radiata Stories, definitely :)

team56th
2007-02-05, 08:42 PM
Urgh... hey, I'm not sure but wasn't KOTOR a console RPG? It was released on Xbox first...

Whatever, Mass Effect FTW :smallbiggrin:

Airk
2007-02-07, 04:13 PM
No one even seems to KNOW that there was a Shining Force 3, nevermind that it was awesome. Alas for the Sega Saturn. ;)

Anyway, I'll throw my heartfelt "thirded!" onto the praise for Skies of Arcadia.

I see a lot of people mentioning the FF games, which I uh...don't care for overmuch. I think FF fandom has resulted in a lot of much better RPGs getting missed out on.

That said, I had one heck of a ride in Star Ocean 3 (never played the earlier ones though.) and La Pucelle Tactics was a gem and a half.

Really, there are so many. I'l taking my queue from this thread and grabbing a few PS2 ones (DQ8, TotA, Ys: Somethingorother) before they get too scarce on me.

talsine
2007-02-07, 04:44 PM
I'm a big Final Fantasy fan, save for 9 which struck me as them trying to recapture what they left behind when they moved to the (then) next gen consoles. Oh well, life goes.

outside of that i love FF Tactics, the Suikoden series (havn't played 5 yet) and The Front Mission games. We need more robot on robot tactical level games. I would cry tears of pure joy for a good version of MechComander.

Last, anyone remember Shadowrun for the SNES (there was a game of the same name for the Genisis but it was completely different)? I loved it, and still do, though its very dated at this point. It also started my love affair with table top SR, and thus will always have a play in my gaming heart.

ElfLad
2007-02-07, 07:01 PM
I see a lot of people mentioning the FF games, which I uh...don't care for overmuch. I think FF fandom has resulted in a lot of much better RPGs getting missed out on.
Seconded. I never really cared for any of the 3D Final Fantasies. FF7 is the most horrendously over-rated game of all time.

But, hey, I enjoyed the Tactics games.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-09, 03:16 AM
You guys helped persuade me to play Skies of Arcadia Legends.

Yep, incredibly good game. Like most RPGs, the clichés run rampant, but like very few good RPGs, it's done in an entertaining manner. Also, ship battles are amazingly fun. Especially since I just got the Delphinus (I think I can say that out of context and have it not be a spoiler.) I ran into a random Black Pirate with that thing, and I about laughed my head off. Can't wait till the next ship boss fight...

BrokenButterfly
2007-02-09, 06:53 AM
My favourite console RPGs have been:

FF7:Mainstream, but one of the first great games I ever played, and probably the first proper RPG for me.

FF9: Got it with my PS2 and this remains my favourite console RPG. Nice characters, and a sweet world.

BoF4: Good RPG, didn't feel that deep, wasn't exactly interested in the characters, but a fun game to play.

Skies of Arcadia Legends: Also an immensely enjoyable game to play, great concept, carried off astoundingly but too many random encounters!

Dark Cloud/Chronicle: Almost forgot! DCh remains one of my favourite games on the PS2, can't get enough of playing it. So much to do, and so playable.

Would like to play: Chrono Cross/Trigger (yay, not released in UK!) FF12 looks fantastic and there's less than two weeks before it's release...

Didn't Like: Dragon Quest: Cursed King thing, Tales of Symphonia

Tengu
2007-02-09, 07:09 AM
I wonder how many people dislike FF7 only because it's so popular.

Reinforcements
2007-02-09, 10:33 AM
I wonder how many people dislike FF7 only because it's so popular.
I don't dislike FF7, although I do think that the story and the characters are crap, especially Sephiroth. But yeah, having to hear about how great something you think is mediocre is all the time can be grating. Not to mention the utter void of creativity or anything else worthwhile that is Advent Children.

BrokenButterfly
2007-02-09, 10:42 AM
I think a lot of people do dislike FF7 on principle, perhaps because they feel that it's not a proper RPG unless it's cult and nobody's heard of it! I liked the characters in FF7, but never really a Cloud and Sephiroth fanboy, much preferred some of the supporting cast like Barret and Red XIII.
Didn't have much against Advent Children either. Hey, it wasn't perfect but it looked great, the soundtrack was fantastic and for me is the best game-film crossover. What would you guys rather have?

Street Fighter:The Ultimate Battle?

ElfLad
2007-02-09, 03:18 PM
You guys helped persuade me to play Skies of Arcadia Legends.

Yep, incredibly good game. Like most RPGs, the clichés run rampant, but like very few good RPGs, it's done in an entertaining manner. Also, ship battles are amazingly fun. Especially since I just got the Delphinus (I think I can say that out of context and have it not be a spoiler.) I ran into a random Black Pirate with that thing, and I about laughed my head off. Can't wait till the next ship boss fight...

Yeah, Skies of Arcadia is easily my favorite turn-based RPG, but I haven't gotten the chance to play FFIV or FFVI yet.

Best part of that game was the sense of exploration. Really came through in the game. If there were less random encounters, the overworld would have been even more fun to travel around.

Tengu
2007-02-09, 03:50 PM
I think a lot of people do dislike FF7 on principle, perhaps because they feel that it's not a proper RPG unless it's cult and nobody's heard of it! I liked the characters in FF7, but never really a Cloud and Sephiroth fanboy, much preferred some of the supporting cast like Barret and Red XIII.
Didn't have much against Advent Children either. Hey, it wasn't perfect but it looked great, the soundtrack was fantastic and for me is the best game-film crossover. What would you guys rather have?

Street Fighter:The Ultimate Battle?

Agreed. Just because something is popular does not mean that you're blindingly following the crowd instead of your own tastes when you like it. And I think that most of FF7's popularity is the result of it being a really good game.
I never really liked Sephiroth. I like Cloud, though less than the other characters you get in the team - though probably he was much more interesting when the game came out, and the archetype he spawned was not common yet. His backstory is also very good, in my book.
Advent Children is nowhere as deep as FF7, but it's enjoyable, and it's directed towards the FF7 fandom more than a broader audience in general - people who didn't like FF7 much or haven't played it at all won't like it. And yeah, it is still the best computer game-based movie. And much better than Spirits Within.

Lawful_Stupid
2007-02-09, 07:04 PM
Ooh, just wait til you get to the next big boss. You had to skimp around fighting the previous two, but now you actually get to fight them properly.



I found a great deal today at Toys R Us. I was searching for a copy of Ar Tonelico, but failed at finding it. I swear, only EBStop has heard of the game, since I have not found it anywhere but there. In any case, I saw a copy of Atelier Iris 2 laying there. I picked it up and gasped at the price.

10 dollars.

I instantly bought it at that price. I mean, it's not even a year old! In comparison, Walmart sells it new for $45 and EBStop wants 25 for a used copy.

I am quite a happy gamer.


EDIT: I found out over on Kotaku that Toys R Us had a major price slashing after Christmas. I guess I just happened across a copy that was on sale for over 2 months. Oh well, I'm still happy.

Ishmael
2007-02-09, 10:31 PM
The only console-based RPG that I've played was Legend of Dragoon. It was excellent, if a little slow at first. Apparently, it is largely a rip-off of FF8, though. I wouldn't know.

The Orange Zergling
2007-02-10, 12:29 AM
I think a lot of people do dislike FF7 on principle, perhaps because they feel that it's not a proper RPG unless it's cult and nobody's heard of it! I liked the characters in FF7, but never really a Cloud and Sephiroth fanboy, much preferred some of the supporting cast like Barret and Red XIII.

Amen, one of my battle.net friends is a Sephiroth fanboy.... biiiiig time, gets annoying, real fast. No, I dont care if Sephiroth started the insane experiment-created villain cliche, it's still a cliche. Cliches are evil.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-11, 01:44 PM
Nah, he didn't create the insane experiment-created villain cliché. Comic books have had that for generations. However, other more original aspects of him have been knocked off a lot, in whole or in part.

Case in point, I'm playing Skies of Arcadia Legends right now. Spoilers therefrom follow:
It's become apparent to me that Ramirez will be the final boss. He has the following qualities to his name:
1. Ridiculously good swordsman who mostly uses flashy magic in battle, and not his sword.
2. Platinum-blond pretty-boy.
3. Secretly a member of an ancient race of morally ambiguous people, although this turned out to be a half-truth for Sephiroth.
4. Burned a town to the ground, just so we could see him staring at the camera through the flames.
5. This is not conclusive, but I'm pretty sure he's going to kill at least one of his superiors before the end of the game.
6. Also a suspicion on my part, he's going to try to kill everyone with either Weapons (as in Emerald) or a storm of small Meteors.
But hey, at least he's not the main character's father.

Reinforcements
2007-02-11, 02:21 PM
Amen, one of my battle.net friends is a Sephiroth fanboy.... biiiiig time, gets annoying, real fast. No, I dont care if Sephiroth started the insane experiment-created villain cliche, it's still a cliche. Cliches are evil.
That's the thing that really gets me about FF7. People say it had a huge impact on the world of RPGs - and it DID, but in a really bad way. Angsty, bad-boy heroes, leather-daddy albino villians and labyrinthine, overly-complicated plots are NOT GOOD THINGS.

Tengu
2007-02-11, 06:07 PM
Angsty, bad-boy heroes, leather-daddy albino villians and labyrinthine, overly-complicated plots are NOT GOOD THINGS.

No?

I think that the biggest influence FF7 had actually happened at the field of western gaming - it has shown the console RPGs to the broader public, and made them popular. Which is a good thing, since I prefer many aspects of console RPGs more (the game telling a story, as opposed to the freedom of classical RPGs, for example).

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-16, 05:14 AM
As I mentioned, I've been playing Skies of Arcadia Legends, and I think I know why it's so popular (among the cult crowd, I mean) and enjoyable: you actually feel proud to be the main character. Vyse kicks ass without being a standoffish jerk, and he's a genuinely nice guy without being an annoying cheerleader like Zidane. Sure, he's kinda whiny in a Luke Skywalker sort of way at the start of the story, but when the game picks up, so does his personality.

The game also really gives you a sense of accomplishment as Vyse gains notoriety as an Air Pirate; you're not just running around after the Plot, doing the villains' dirty work for them and then beating them up (don't get me wrong, you do that too). You're establishing yourself in the world. Not just saving it through thuggery and deus ex machina like a Final Fantasy hero, but being a Bad Ass Mother Wombater of a pirate. This feeling, of course, reaches its zenith when you get your own (extremely sexy) pirate ship, a pirate base, and a pirate crew that you can blow thousands of gold on for no in-game effect. Then there's just the sheer awesomeness of what you do, like pulling off daring rescues, completely embarrassing the Spanish Valuan Armada, and circumnavigating the globe.

Now watch, and the plot's going to take my ship, crew, and pirate-stan all away from me before the end of the game. For now, though, I'm on top of the (extremely high) world.

Lawful_Stupid
2007-02-16, 08:09 AM
No, you'll always have your sexy ship, base, and crew.


The Atelier Iris series needs more love. Too many youngin's are concerned about graphics over gameplay these days. So what if the characters are sprites? The games are damn good and humorous. And the characters are memorable. Gray, Norn, and Noin kick so much *** (not sure if it's allowed on GitP). The Synthing is even fun. Poor Gust and NISA, so many people have overlooked these gems.

Also from NISA and Gust is Ar Tonelico, which I finally found a few days ago. It follows a similar direction as the AI series with the sprites, but it focuses on character relationships rather than AI's item Synthing. There's also a really cool take on magic in the form of Song Magic. Only three characters can use it, and you have to charge up the spells before they get powerful. During that time, you have to shield them from enemy attacks with your other characters. And if you charge it up too much, the spell will just fizzle and the caster will be exhausted for some time. It's a really cool game mechanic. And Misha is awesome.

Of course, both series have their fair shares of innuendo. It's everywhere. The characters talk about it a little, and there's AT's whole "Diving" stuff...

BrokenButterfly
2007-02-16, 10:48 AM
I never really liked the characters in Skies of Arcadia, it was more the concept, and the originality that I liked. While I agree that building up your name, ship and base were great, the main characters were undeniably lacking.

Talking about FF7 again, I think the stereotype of the star/villain with the absurd sword has become one of the real legacies of Cloud and Sephiroth. I thought the buster sword was cool, but the muramasa was really quite silly.

Airk
2007-02-16, 11:26 AM
I never really liked the characters in Skies of Arcadia, it was more the concept, and the originality that I liked. While I agree that building up your name, ship and base were great, the main characters were undeniably lacking.

I just have to agree with Nerd-o-rama and disagree with you. I could -cheer- for the Skies characters. It's not -nearly- common enough that you get characters who haven't been tainted by the whiny angst of the Cloud motif. I thought the entire cast was pretty darn likeable, even the somewhat generic pale-moon-girl Fina and the somewhat froofy Enrique. Maybe we're not talking Phantasy Star IV level of kickass characters, but still leagues ahead of most. There was a charisma there that I find generally lacking in the FF character lineups.



Talking about FF7 again, I think the stereotype of the star/villain with the absurd sword has become one of the real legacies of Cloud and Sephiroth. I thought the buster sword was cool, but the muramasa was really quite silly.

Hm. I dunno. I can't actually think of another title with a hero/villain with a huge sword. >.<

Reinforcements
2007-02-16, 12:32 PM
I'm dying to get my hands on Ar Tonelico, but that's just because I'm a huge sucker for good art, and Ar Tonelico's art is AMAZING.

Lawful_Stupid
2007-02-16, 01:54 PM
If you happen to find one of the first shipment copies, it'll have
an art book packaged with the game. It's a sweet hardcover 52 page book with various little things of the characters. It even shows some of the alternate costumes for the Reyvateils.

Don Leon is awesome, forgot to mention that earlier.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-16, 04:00 PM
I just have to agree with Nerd-o-rama and disagree with you. I could -cheer- for the Skies characters. It's not -nearly- common enough that you get characters who haven't been tainted by the whiny angst of the Cloud motif. I thought the entire cast was pretty darn likeable, even the somewhat generic pale-moon-girl Fina and the somewhat froofy Enrique. Maybe we're not talking Phantasy Star IV level of kickass characters, but still leagues ahead of most. There was a charisma there that I find generally lacking in the FF character lineups.
They're all pretty good. Aika gets on my nerves occasionally, being the peppy party cheerleader archetype, but she's funny enough to make up for it.

Hm. I dunno. I can't actually think of another title with a hero/villain with a huge sword. >.<
Hmm...the only video game I can think of is Final Fantasy VIII, come to think of it. And that's a combination of size and "A sword and a gun? Now I've seen everything" silliness/"coolness".

I suppose Cloud and Sephi are more responsible for creating legions of fanboys of their style, much like Driz'zt in the fantasy/D&D milieu, rather than professionally-published doppelgangers.

BrokenButterfly
2007-02-16, 06:16 PM
Okay, I have to admit that Final Fantasy seems to follow their own cliche in that way, Auron for example. I only really suggested it because of the way everyone was exclaiming "It's too much like Final Fantasy!" in reaction to the large sword wielded by a recent D&D mini. It's not a view I hold that strongly to be honest...

But talking about Skies of Arcadia again. Hey, I love the game, but the appeal for me was always the world and it's fantastical design. That was what really stuck with me, not the characters. I didn't hate them, I thought that Drachma and Gilder were good, but Vyse, Aika and Fina grated on me a bit. They just seemed rather thin that's all, and the voices weren't that good either.

ElfLad
2007-02-16, 06:50 PM
The Arcadia characters strike me as being like the 8BT characters. No one's going to argue that they're deep, but they're consistent, and they're fun to watch.

Gilder kicked ass, though, and I will knife-fight anybody who disagrees.

Airk
2007-02-17, 12:28 AM
Gilder kicked ass, though, and I will knife-fight anybody who disagrees.

No arguement from me. ;)

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-23, 03:34 AM
Man, Skies of Arcadia rocks. I'm a massive fight, a dungeon, and presumably another massive fight away from finishing it. For those of you who've played the game, I'm at the point where everyone you've ever met makes a cameo. Anyway, yeah, I think it's beaten Baten Kaitos Origins for most underrated RPG of all time. Well, maybe not, since BKO sold like 46 copies in America.

One thing I've noticed is that probably at least 80% of this (http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html) happens in both games I mentioned. And yet...their still very fun, and use the clichés to their advantage.

EDIT: 1. Almost. 2. Mostly. 3. Yes. 4. Pretty close. 5. Mostly. 6...No??
EDIT: Heh. The last rule on the list is even named after Vyse. And God, is it accurate.

One more random thought about Skies of Arcadia. Has anyone who's played that watched Yu-gi-oh: The Abridged Series on YouTube? Does Vigoro remind anyone else of the pointy-haired henchman?

"Attention pirates! My hair is making unsubtle innuendos!"

Random thought.

Logic
2007-02-23, 05:24 AM
FF7:Mainstream, but one of the first great games I ever played, and probably the first proper RPG for me.
Now, for me, this is not an RPG, since you have not choice in how your character advances. It is an interactive story at best.

Cubey
2007-02-23, 05:39 AM
Now, for me, this is not an RPG, since you have not choice in how your character advances. It is an interactive story at best.
Many console RPGs are like that. Most of them, I believe.

Jerthanis
2007-02-23, 07:22 AM
Some of my favorites of the RPG market are the Grandia, Shadow Hearts and Star Ocean serieses. The second game of each series is the best in their series. Radiata Stories is also fantastic, and I just beat it recently.

I was never able to get into Skies of Arcadia, unfortunately because of the extremely high encounter rate, playing it right on the tail end of Grandia 2 and expecting another masterpiece on that level, and due to some bad luck with a boss that I underestimated after failing to have saved in far, far too long. From what I played it was the type of RPG that reminds me why it isn't a bad thing to rely on cliche. It desperately wanted voice-overs though.

Final Fantasy 7 holds a special place of contempt in my heart. Perhaps it was playing it a half dozen years after it was special for doing what it did. Perhaps it was the fact that I was treated as if I weren't an RPG fan for missing it. Perhaps it was because the game was always what I thought was the exclaimation mark on my regret over purchasing an N64 rather than a Playstation. Perhaps it was the fact that when I was being rung out at the registers with FF7 the cashier responded with vigorous enthusiasm that it was the best game ever made and that I was "in for a treat", but I have NEVER been more disappointed in a game than I was with this one. Stale graphics aside, the gameplay from the very beginning was unforgivably painful, and ill-advised.

From the very beginning the travesties known as minigames required you to have exacting timing at pressing a button an unknown amount of time after you are prompted to, sneaking past guards which are represented by pinpricks of color in the far distance... and they only got worse from there. Add to this the interminable cutscenes and poor storytelling form (4 or 5 hours into the game the characters sit down in an innroom and dictate to you the plot, offering savepoints in between in case you get bored) telling a plot that falls somewhere between standard and substandard and I couldn't understand how this pervasive culture of worship surrounding this game came about. The only explanation I've ever gotten as to why some people believe this game is good is that they played it when such stories were new to them, and when stories about outsider loners were cherished close to the heart for reminding them of their own feelings at that time. People playing it at an age where they feel Tim Burton movies are giving them the most important lessons of their lives. Playing it with a guide by their side, telling them with all the confidentiality of whispered secrets and inside jokes between friends how to actually navigate the sprawling backgrounds upon which you appear as a speck of dust, how to manage to complete some of the meandering sidequests, imparting knowledge of where the heck to go when you finish at the Golden Saucer, and giving helpful tips on how to actually find the plot. In these ways, FF7 became like a cherished friend to those who liked it, but I was equipped with none of these things, and the game was not seen in terms of the feelings it could evoke, or the secrets I could discover, but in terms of its terrible gameplay, its rehashed FF6 story with its rehashed FF6 villain, and the poor storytelling method of plot dictation.

Logic
2007-02-23, 07:36 AM
Many console RPGs are like that. Most of them, I believe.
To me, none of them qualify as RPGs. In my experience, JRPGs seem to be the most guilty of this.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-23, 09:44 AM
I just hold two definitions of role-playing game; the D&D definition of building a character to suit a role, and the console RPG definition of interactive novel. I enjoy both, so I don't stress over terms.

Airk
2007-02-23, 11:26 AM
I was never able to get into Skies of Arcadia, unfortunately because of the extremely high encounter rate, playing it right on the tail end of Grandia 2 and expecting another masterpiece on that level...

Interesting. The only thing that kept me going through Grandia II was that combat was so much -fun- that I didn't really care that the plot seemed a little wonked and contrived. ;)

Different strokes, I suppose. Hard to argue with that combat system though.

ElfLad
2007-02-23, 11:41 AM
Final Fantasy 7 holds a special place of contempt in my heart. Perhaps it was playing it a half dozen years after it was special for doing what it did. Perhaps it was the fact that I was treated as if I weren't an RPG fan for missing it. Perhaps it was because the game was always what I thought was the exclaimation mark on my regret over purchasing an N64 rather than a Playstation. Perhaps it was the fact that when I was being rung out at the registers with FF7 the cashier responded with vigorous enthusiasm that it was the best game ever made and that I was "in for a treat", but I have NEVER been more disappointed in a game than I was with this one. Stale graphics aside, the gameplay from the very beginning was unforgivably painful, and ill-advised.

From the very beginning the travesties known as minigames required you to have exacting timing at pressing a button an unknown amount of time after you are prompted to, sneaking past guards which are represented by pinpricks of color in the far distance... and they only got worse from there. Add to this the interminable cutscenes and poor storytelling form (4 or 5 hours into the game the characters sit down in an innroom and dictate to you the plot, offering savepoints in between in case you get bored) telling a plot that falls somewhere between standard and substandard and I couldn't understand how this pervasive culture of worship surrounding this game came about. The only explanation I've ever gotten as to why some people believe this game is good is that they played it when such stories were new to them, and when stories about outsider loners were cherished close to the heart for reminding them of their own feelings at that time. People playing it at an age where they feel Tim Burton movies are giving them the most important lessons of their lives. Playing it with a guide by their side, telling them with all the confidentiality of whispered secrets and inside jokes between friends how to actually navigate the sprawling backgrounds upon which you appear as a speck of dust, how to manage to complete some of the meandering sidequests, imparting knowledge of where the heck to go when you finish at the Golden Saucer, and giving helpful tips on how to actually find the plot. In these ways, FF7 became like a cherished friend to those who liked it, but I was equipped with none of these things, and the game was not seen in terms of the feelings it could evoke, or the secrets I could discover, but in terms of its terrible gameplay, its rehashed FF6 story with its rehashed FF6 villain, and the poor storytelling method of plot dictation.

I have to agree. Except for the cashier saying how good it was, that's exactly what happened to me. I really prefer the 2D Final Fantasies.

Lawful_Stupid
2007-02-23, 02:28 PM
Man, Skies of Arcadia rocks. I'm a massive fight, a dungeon, and presumably another massive fight away from finishing it. For those of you who've played the game, I'm at the point where everyone you've ever met makes a cameo.

Ah, you're at that part. Very cool part of the game The ship battle is very long and hard; harder than the last ship battle in the game. Sad to say, you're near the end of the game.


Ar Tonelico doesn't seem as long as I'd hoped; I'm already at the beginning of Phase 3(the last part of the story that is actually optional) with a little less than 30 hours clocked on. I haven't even had anyone die yet, but I did have a few close calls. Oh well, it is a fun game, and it's better to play a fun short game than a boring tedious one. And I still have my $10 copy of Atelier Iris 2 to continue.

BR4life
2007-02-23, 02:40 PM
the RPG I'm looking forward to is Blue Dragon. Its from the same creator as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy, and is set to launch on the 360 in a couple of months (already out in Japan). It also has the art design of Akira Toriyama, the person who did Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Quest. It looks really good here is a link to find out more info if your interested. http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/734/734380p1.html. It was Xbox 360's way of getting into the Japanese public, which it did (sold 80,000 copies. 30,000 were with a 360 system).

Jerthanis
2007-02-23, 09:36 PM
Interesting. The only thing that kept me going through Grandia II was that combat was so much -fun- that I didn't really care that the plot seemed a little wonked and contrived. ;)


I've heard the same said by others, so I'm sure it is a matter of perspective. I found Grandia 2's story to be amazing, and featured extremely well developed characters that you really learned to care for. But others I talk to are often not so entranced by it, claiming the first one was better or that they just didn't like it. But while Grandia 2's story has its peaks and valleys, (The storyline surrounding the Tongue is always painful for me to get through, Selene and Mirumu village, and the story of the Eye is fantastic though) I found a similar effect in Skies of Arcadia, where you're laboriously led by the nose through a bunch of silly hoops and you can tell from the very beginning that you're being duped by the bad guys. The game isn't even subtle about it, making sure the player knows what's going on far before the characters do, and when that part of the story finally plays out (after taking its sweet time) you get into a deus-ex-wave-motion-cannon battle where you cannot win without use of the Harpoon gun... and even then sometimes the Harpoon gun randomly doesn't do enough damage to win and you lose anyway. (this happened to me, and I had to proceed from a previous save before several time consuming battles)... so it's not like Skies was any better on the contrivance factor.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-24, 05:28 AM
Hm. Don't recall a battle where you had to take out the enemy with a single Harpoon Cannon shot or lose. The first Gigas fight was tricky, I'll admit, because I didn't know to buy subcannons, and therefore couldn't knock it out of its attack pattern. Then I went and fought The Lynx, and guessed wrong at every strategic juncture.

You're mostly right, though. I will say that, unlike in other RPGs, stealing the McGuffins from the heroes was at least Plan B.
Belleza, De Loco, and the others tried to get the Moon Crystals without relying on railroaded burglary, but, well...they just sucked at it. I think they gave up and decided to go with "have Ramirez steal them" around the time you're going after the Purple Crystal.

Also, I could have totally taken Ramirez if he hadn't had infinite HP.

ElfLad
2007-02-24, 11:16 PM
So... Baten Kaitos: Lost Wings and the Eternal Ocean or whatever it's called.

Absolutely gorgeous graphics, and a good battle system so far. But it seems to take a perverse pleasure in giving its characters nigh-unrememberable names. I mean, I've been playing for a few hours and all I can remember about the female leads name is that it starts with an "X."

Which is generally not conducive towards memorization.

Lawful_Stupid
2007-02-25, 01:08 PM
Wait, you're at the part when you attack the Hydra, right? That's the annoying ship battle; the thing has well over 100,000 HP, and has its own special super cannon.

I don't think you need subcannons for Recumen; I can always avoid his Red Ray by just hitting him with a normal shot.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-25, 01:58 PM
Yeah, well, it wasn't too tricky. It's just a question of wearing it down, and staying out of the way of it's super cannon.

As for Recumen...well, I still kept getting hit by it even using the regular or Harpoon cannons. Still, I hadn't upgraded my weaponry at all, having not thought to go to the Ship Parts shop on Sailor's Island, and then getting ditched by that crazy old man. That could have been the problem.

I did manage to get through that two-part battle without dying, though. Used most of my party's MP on healing spells, but I got through it.

In fact, I'm in the last dungeon (I assume), and I haven't gotten a game over yet. I was unprepared enough for some of the Wanted battles that it was a close call*, but I still managed, with liberal use of Riselem crystals.

"*Money makes the world go round!" God, that guy sucks. Fortunately, his minions glitched in my game and kept healing each other.

BrokenButterfly
2007-02-25, 02:23 PM
To me, none of them qualify as RPGs.

The very title of the genre is vague. A game where "you play a role"...surely you can say that of almost any game, be it kicking a football or shooting guns. That's your role.

But I think to say that controlling a figure in a story makes something stop becoming an RPG is a bit weird. So what if it's an interactive story? You're playing a pre-determined role so therefore it's still an RPG. As opposed to games such as Oblivion where the role is defined by the player.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-25, 07:03 PM
What, no love for Golden Sun, Secret of Evermore, Mario and Luigi, or the Paper Mario Games?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-25, 09:35 PM
Didn't I give love to Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door earlier? No? Damn, because it's an awesome game. Creative, gorgeous, and fun to play. Also, I want to play Super Luigi.

Haven't really played any other Mario-based RPGs, though.

Golden Sun was good. Intriguing mechanics, but not particularly memorable. Never played Secret of Evermore.

ElfLad
2007-02-25, 11:07 PM
I love all the Mario RPGs. I love the Paper Marios, like the Mario and Luigis, and haven't played enough of SMRPG to give a concrete opinion, but it was really good from what I've played.

I'm loving Baten Kaitos the more I play it, although so far, it overuses the "Well, we're going to the same place, we might as well stick together, even though our relationship at this point could be considered 'mild dislike' at best," card. Heh, I made a funny.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-25, 11:32 PM
Heh, place.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, Baten Kaitos Origins only has three player characters, and the one who tags along for no apparent reason is clearly up to something from the get go. Of course, the main character falls victim to the Thinking with the Wrong Head CRPG cliché, and she comes along.

ElfLad
2007-02-25, 11:51 PM
The best part of my life is that I can consider playing RPGs as research. And as a result, I probably react a bit more strongly to overused cliches, but as long as the battle system's fun, I honestly don't care too much.

One thing I did really like about BK:LWatEO was the way it handled the "Save a girl you met for two minutes from the enemy's castle at great personal risk" thing. Basically, Kalas enters the castle to get revenge on the guy who killed his family, and he passes Xelha's cell and is like, "Well, I'm here anyway, might as well let her out."

Logic
2007-02-26, 03:15 AM
The very title of the genre is vague. A game where "you play a role"...surely you can say that of almost any game, be it kicking a football or shooting guns. That's your role.

But I think to say that controlling a figure in a story makes something stop becoming an RPG is a bit weird. So what if it's an interactive story? You're playing a pre-determined role so therefore it's still an RPG. As opposed to games such as Oblivion where the role is defined by the player.

Let me try to clarify. Role playing games are about choices, mostly the ones that involve developing your character. If your character "advances" yet you have no choice in what they advance in, it is not an RPG.

This is my personal standard and definition to RPG. You may have yours, but I stand by mine.
(I wonder how long it will be before someone shows me I put my foot in my mouth?)

Tengu
2007-02-26, 07:38 AM
That'd be the definition of a western, or classical RPG. Japanese, or console RPGs oftenly give you little freedom in choosing how to develop your character or where to go now in the game, but instead they give you an interesting story. I personally would take the story over freedom every day.

Not to mention that in most console RPGs, you can choose how your character advances. In FF6, there's the esper system that lets you learn spells, in FF7 - materia, which, while not directly connected to levelling, allows good character customization. In Seiken Densetsu 3, you can choose which stat to improve when you level up and at certain points of the game, you can gain different classes for your characters that vary a lot - does it make it an RPG in your eyes, while it was not one previously?

Logic
2007-02-26, 09:26 AM
A good RPG also includes a well involved and immersive story. If all it is is a hackmaster clone, then it is an action game with character development. RPGs are my favorite genre to play, but few games that bill themselves as RPGs fit my definition.

I personally hated every Final Fantasy game (the standards for Japan RPGs it seems) with 4 exceptions: X, X-2, Tactics and Tactics Advance.

Tengu
2007-02-26, 11:49 AM
I usually find the stories of jRPGs much more immersive and well involved than those of classical RPGs, personally.

BrokenButterfly
2007-02-26, 11:53 AM
What, no love for Golden Sun, Secret of Evermore, Mario and Luigi, or the Paper Mario Games?

Enjoyed playing Superstar Saga, and the Golden Sun games are usually fun to play, but they're not my favourite instances of the genre.

Logic: Why enjoy playing FFX if you hated the other games in the series? It does have more room for character customisation but you still have no real choice in story development. Why can you overlook what you deem a flaw in this case and not in the case of the other games?

ElfLad
2007-02-26, 01:13 PM
I definitely understand where Logic's coming from. Most of the dramatic moments in games are ruined, because I know they would happen either way. I may have seen the obvious trap, but the game makes sure the characters don't. If I ever make an RPG, I intend to avoid that. Every major death will be avoidable if you pull the right strings. Some villains that might appear pure evil if you don't dig deeper will have a softer side and opportunities for redemption.

I'd probably also make it possible to get the worst situation available. Best case, you win with all your party and all but one or two important NPCs still alive, and about half the major villains are more or less your allies, and at the very least, they no longer wish you any harm. Worst case scenario, you have two characters left alive in the party, no NPC allies, and all but one or two major villains still alive and hating your guts somewhere out there. Makes a sequel pretty damn hard to make, but just that one game would be draining enough to write and produce.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-26, 02:10 PM
Ambitious. And you'd probably never find a publisher, seeing as the same formulaic stuff over and over again sells and is much cheaper. Or doesn't, in the case of the Baten Kaitos games, which made the mistake of changing the basic combat mechanic.

Man, I'm cynical today.

Tengu
2007-02-26, 02:24 PM
I dunno, Planescape Torment sold rather well.
Though not as much as very "ambitious" Icewind Dale I&II.

Logic
2007-02-26, 02:37 PM
Logic: Why enjoy playing FFX if you hated the other games in the series? It does have more room for character customisation but you still have no real choice in story development. Why can you overlook what you deem a flaw in this case and not in the case of the other games?

It was the first one that I could delve into the character customization quite deeply, and the story actually had me wanting more, despite the fact that I had no choice in how it advanced. The fact was that it was fun to begin with, and the story hooked me from the beginning. I still don't consider it a true RPG (more of an interactive novel than an RPG), but it was the first to get me to tolerate any of the so-called Japan produced RPGs.

I honestly hope my harsh opinion does not offend anyone. Besides, if you enjoy the games that I loathe, more power to you. Just say "That Logic guy doesn't know anything." to yourself. I won't be offended. Honest. :smallbiggrin:

(Keeping in mind you don't say it here where it might be interpreted as flaming. I don't want you guys getting a warning of my accord, let alone banned.)

Airk
2007-02-26, 02:46 PM
I've heard the same said by others, so I'm sure it is a matter of perspective. I found Grandia 2's story to be amazing, and featured extremely well developed characters that you really learned to care for. But others I talk to are often not so entranced by it, claiming the first one was better or that they just didn't like it. But while Grandia 2's story has its peaks and valleys, (The storyline surrounding the Tongue is always painful for me to get through, Selene and Mirumu village, and the story of the Eye is fantastic though)

I thought the individual -subplots- of Grandia II were pretty compelling - particularly the Eye, actually, but I thought the overall "tie it together" plot was weak at best.

And I -really- couldn't get into -any- of the three main characters. I thought Ryudo, Elena, and Millennia were all kinda annoying. =/ Oddly, the character I really liked the best was Tio, and she's -far- from being relevant to the plot.


I found a similar effect in Skies of Arcadia, where you're laboriously led by the nose through a bunch of silly hoops and you can tell from the very beginning that you're being duped by the bad guys. The game isn't even subtle about it, making sure the player knows what's going on far before the characters do, and when that part of the story finally plays out (after taking its sweet time) you get into a deus-ex-wave-motion-cannon battle where you cannot win without use of the Harpoon gun... and even then sometimes the Harpoon gun randomly doesn't do enough damage to win and you lose anyway. (this happened to me, and I had to proceed from a previous save before several time consuming battles)... so it's not like Skies was any better on the contrivance factor.

Er...the heck? I don't remember anything about being "duped by the bad guys", and I personally felt that one of the game's great weaknesses was the fact that all the ship battles were too EASY. I certainly don't remember any that you were required to do anything with the harpoon cannon for.

Maybe it's been too long since I played it, but I can't credit your description of the game at all.

BrokenButterfly
2007-02-26, 03:01 PM
I honestly hope my harsh opinion does not offend anyone. Besides, if you enjoy the games that I loathe, more power to you. Just say "That Logic guy doesn't know anything." to yourself. I won't be offended. Honest. :smallbiggrin:

(Keeping in mind you don't say it here where it might be interpreted as flaming. I don't want you guys getting a warning of my accord, let alone banned.)

Don't worry, I'm not that type of person :smallsmile:

I enjoyed FFX when I first played it through, and most of it stuck with me. I just hated Tidus that's all. Didn't use Kimahri either, just dumped him at the wayside of the Sphere Grid. I prefer clear-cut character types, like FF9, rather than have all my characters blurb into an all-rounded soup. And if you customise to roles, then why not have those roles factored into character story and plot in the first place? I felt that FF9 worked well in this regard.

I guess the downside of story-driven RPGs is when you dislike the way the story is going. If you're spending half of the game yelling...

"Don't go that way, it's clearly a trap!! Look you can see the skeletons cut in half!!! Oh an NPC died, am I supposed to feel some sort of responsibility for that? I didn't want to go that way remember?!"

then you're bound to feel soured towards the genre. I prefer these sorts of RPGs because I like setpieces, and a grand world tour. But in the end it's all going to be down to whether you like the finished product, like any film or book with a tale to tell.

Airk
2007-02-27, 09:39 AM
Two random asides:

1st and 2nd Edition AD&D don't fit the "you must have choice over your character path advancement" model. (Technically you could multiclass, but only if you weren't human, and blahblah.) Which is an interesting irony all things considered.

For those of you who are aggravated by the contrived plot setpieces and linearity of japanese console RPGs, I suggest retreating into the protective warmth of the extreme nonlinearity of Ultima V: Lazarus (http://www.u5lazarus.com/). It's a remake of a truly oldschool american RPG (in the truest sense, to me, which means making decisions -for- your character, rather than decisions -about- your character.) in the Dungeon Seige engine (So yeah, you need Dungeon Seige to play it. Alas.); And no, I have no financial stake in the game (it's free, no one has a financial stake in it. ;P ) but it's good enough that I feel I should plug it all the darn time. ;)

To drag this back on topic a bit: While I appreciate decision based character advancement systems, I find that they suffer several serious flaws. Firstly, they have a tendancy to erase the individuality of characters from a combat perspective - this definitely seems to be the case in FFXII, where, after you get over the initial "Gah, I have -no- license points. Must save to learn to use a bigger knife!" phase of the game, everyone's abilities just kinda glump together and your party becomes pretty much interchangable in combat. This same sort of effect -could- happen in FFX, but would require you to consciously seek it out. I still though the FFX advancement system was stupid and tedious, but at least it avoided the tendance of homgenizing your characters while still presenting the illusion of decision making (There really weren't that many decisions, when you get right down to it. You just bought everything that was nearby.) The other problem with decision-based advancement systems is that they are, apparently, hard to balance. While this isn't AS big a problem with single player RPGs as it with MMOs, it's still there. Even in non-decision-based advancement games, you often end up with one character (or character class) that ends up being basically useless. As soon as you start adding player decision making into the heap, you rapidly increase the number of possible 'classes' that need to be balanced - unless, of course, the choices you make don't really -influence- anything, in which case, we are, again, back to the illusion of choice.

BrokenButterfly
2007-02-27, 02:46 PM
A small thing that I didn't like with the Sphere Grid was that there was simply no real indicator of your strength. Sometimes it's nice to see that you're level X, it helps you guage your strength in response to fellow game players too. But what were you meant to do in FFX? Count the spaces on the grid?

Airk really summed up what I briefly mentioned about character development, totally agree.

Jerthanis
2007-02-28, 11:07 AM
I thought the individual -subplots- of Grandia II were pretty compelling - particularly the Eye, actually, but I thought the overall "tie it together" plot was weak at best.

And I -really- couldn't get into -any- of the three main characters. I thought Ryudo, Elena, and Millennia were all kinda annoying. =/ Oddly, the character I really liked the best was Tio, and she's -far- from being relevant to the plot.

*shrug* different strokes I guess. Ryudo was my favorite character in RPGs period pretty much until... wait, he still is. I also can't believe you found Mareg annoying, as he was awesome through and through. I also was really in love with Tio, and I'd say she was hardly irrelevant to the plot. She had the Claws in her, was the only soul drained individual who could get up and move afterwards, she fell in love and dealt with tragedy, had a Data-esque search for humanity and was the one who unlocked the gates to the Granasaber... and you got her probably more than halfway through the game. Only Roan was annoying in my opinion, and yet his growth from a boy to a man over the course of the game was intriguing to watch.

and the overall plot being that humans were once exalted beings of light who dwelt in perpetual happiness and glee, but who rebelled against the light because they desired freedom, and not just happiness. In their rebellion they released a powerful evil which killed the benevolent and loving god... Thousands of years later a madman brings about the end of the world seeking to acquire the power of the victorious evil god by exploiting the dead god's religion... but the hero who has dealt with his own personal demons on his quest learns what it means to be human and that they need neither good gods to give them everything they want, nor evil gods to frighten them into behaving, and that all humankind really needs is to work for the betterment of everyone's lives, and that will save the world... I just don't see how that is weak or contrived... it speaks to me on a level that I normally think of as that of epic myths or particularly touching sermons.



Er...the heck? I don't remember anything about being "duped by the bad guys", and I personally felt that one of the game's great weaknesses was the fact that all the ship battles were too EASY. I certainly don't remember any that you were required to do anything with the harpoon cannon for.

Maybe it's been too long since I played it, but I can't credit your description of the game at all.

Yeah, you're forgetting a pretty big part of the game and I didn't even beat it. When you're first heading to the ruins in search of the moon crystal thingy, you are approached by a scantly-clad dancer who Vyse is utterly entranced by. She approaches with a sob story and much to Fina and Aika's chagrin, he accepts and races off towards this destination. After completing a dungeon complete with puzzles and (I think) a boss, you get thrown into a ship battle where they are still explaining some of the ship-battle mechanics, tutorial style. When you complete that, somewhat tricky if you're still getting used to the ship battle mechanics, boss battle, another boss battle appears where the scantly-clad dancer girl turns out to be an admiral for the enemy fleet who tricked you into doing her dirty work. This is the first battle in which the Harpoon gun is introduced, and from the number of times they told me to prepare the gun I assumed it was a neccessary step to winning the battle. I fired it, it didn't kill the enemy vessel, mine died and I had to start from my last save. The Harpoon gun HAD dealt over 30 times the damage of my normal cannons, and when I tried again, it killed the enemy in a single hit. If that isn't a Deus-ex-Wave-motion-cannon battle, I don't know what would qualify as one.

Perhaps the ship battles got easy after a while, but they certainly didn't start that way.

I'm not saying I didn't like the game, because I did, I was just explaining my reasons why I never got into it, and used Grandia 2 as an example of what type of game really captures my interest.

Airk
2007-02-28, 12:21 PM
*shrug* different strokes I guess. Ryudo was my favorite character in RPGs period pretty much until... wait, he still is. I also can't believe you found Mareg annoying, as he was awesome through and through. I also was really in love with Tio, and I'd say she was hardly irrelevant to the plot. She had the Claws in her, was the only soul drained individual who could get up and move afterwards, she fell in love and dealt with tragedy, had a Data-esque search for humanity and was the one who unlocked the gates to the Granasaber... and you got her probably more than halfway through the game. Only Roan was annoying in my opinion, and yet his growth from a boy to a man over the course of the game was intriguing to watch.

Where did I say I didn't like Mareg? ;P But again, he's really just a supporting role. And his eventual exit from the party screams "video game contrivance".

I mean, he's basically killed by a couple of 'trash' random monsters, of which you have all collectively, killed dozens of already. For no particularly clear identifiable reason.

As for Tio - I don't know. I liked her, but she didn't feel relevant. Sure, she did a couple of things that were "important to the plot" but as it turns out...they weren't, really. Indeed, if you want to talk about "Oh god, we're being duped by the badguy" it doesn't get any more severe than, say, the first HALF of Grandia II. =/ Indeed, it's almost worse, because the Grandia 2 story gets dangerously close to the LXG "We're saving the world from the badguys who wouldn't be able to endanger the world if it weren't for us in the first place." scenario.

and the overall plot being that humans were once exalted beings of light who dwelt in perpetual happiness and glee, but who rebelled against the light because they desired freedom, and not just happiness. In their rebellion they released a powerful evil which killed the benevolent and loving god... Thousands of years later a madman brings about the end of the world seeking to acquire the power of the victorious evil god by exploiting the dead god's religion... but the hero who has dealt with his own personal demons on his quest learns what it means to be human and that they need neither good gods to give them everything they want, nor evil gods to frighten them into behaving, and that all humankind really needs is to work for the betterment of everyone's lives, and that will save the world... I just don't see how that is weak or contrived... it speaks to me on a level that I normally think of as that of epic myths or particularly touching sermons.

Wow. You make it sound really...preachy. The thing is though, that while it sounds good in summary, I didn't really feel like it -worked- in practice. I'd have to go play through it again, but it really just didn't compel me. Everything from nonevent of a villian to the whininess of Elena just sortof left me blah. I just wanted to reach through the screen, grab the characters, shake them, and say "Stop being so stupid!"

As sort of "Myth", I feel that the Granas/Valmar story works fairly well, but actually 'being' there made it feel kinda... not very grand. It's like the events that happened in the distant past are more interesting than what's happening now.



Yeah, you're forgetting a pretty big part of the game and I didn't even beat it. When you're first heading to the ruins in search of the moon crystal thingy, you are approached by a scantly-clad dancer who Vyse is utterly entranced by. She approaches with a sob story and much to Fina and Aika's chagrin, he accepts and races off towards this destination. After completing a dungeon complete with puzzles and (I think) a boss, you get thrown into a ship battle where they are still explaining some of the ship-battle mechanics, tutorial style. When you complete that, somewhat tricky if you're still getting used to the ship battle mechanics, boss battle, another boss battle appears where the scantly-clad dancer girl turns out to be an admiral for the enemy fleet who tricked you into doing her dirty work.

I don't think that this is a big part of the game at all. The plot is just barely getting started at this point. And honestly, how were the characters "duped"? "The villains have tricked us into doing something we would have done anyway! And have in fact provided us with the means to do it!"? Okay, fine, they didn't realize that the villains were helping them on their way, but it sure didn't come out to anyone's benefit except the heroes when that segment of the plot arc tidied itself up. And I'm glad your RPG-sense told you you were being duped, because obviously there's only one good looking redhead in the world...

I think you are misremembering too though. The party does -not- change their destination. They've been stranded. They're trying to figure out how to go exactly where the villains offer to take them. Some of the party may not trust their good fortune, but it's not as if they had other options, being without a ship at that point.



This is the first battle in which the Harpoon gun is introduced, and from the number of times they told me to prepare the gun I assumed it was a neccessary step to winning the battle. I fired it, it didn't kill the enemy vessel, mine died and I had to start from my last save. The Harpoon gun HAD dealt over 30 times the damage of my normal cannons, and when I tried again, it killed the enemy in a single hit. If that isn't a Deus-ex-Wave-motion-cannon battle, I don't know what would qualify as one.

I have honestly no idea how you managed to lose that fight. The gigas battle is honestly challenging, but the fight that follows? I'm not even sure I fired the Harpoon cannon there. Yes, the Harpoon cannon does do a lot of damage. Yes, it trivializes a couple of fights. But you can easily win just about every fight in the game without it once you understand how ship battles actually work. A Deus-ex situation is one in which using the superweapon is required, and I can assure you, it's not.


I'm not saying I didn't like the game, because I did, I was just explaining my reasons why I never got into it, and used Grandia 2 as an example of what type of game really captures my interest.

Yes. And I am explaining the same thing. And perhaps clearing up what sound like misconceptions on your part.

Jerthanis
2007-03-01, 12:45 AM
Yes. And I am explaining the same thing. And perhaps clearing up what sound like misconceptions on your part.

No, you're responding to me saying "X, Y and Z happened to me, and it ruined my appreciation of what I'm sure is a great game." with "X, Y and Z can't happen!" to which I can only respond, "Uh, sure they can."

BrokenButterfly
2007-03-01, 05:57 AM
I found that Arcadia ship battles became trivialised when you got anything relating to a cure spell. Anytime you were anywhere near to dying, just use a cure and fully cure for minimal cost. But if I remember rightly, you couldn't do this at this point. I also found the Lynx to be trickier than the Gigas, but I still beat her the second or third time.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-01, 06:05 AM
The only times I really had trouble in Skies were the Recumen/Lynx fight, where I kept screwing up, as mentioned above, and a couple of the Wanted battles (and one of the Piastol battles) where I was under-equipped or under-Special Moved. And I still managed to pull through by virtue of having enough healing items, having enough resurrection items, and abusing Skull Shield, Delta Shield, and/or Justice Shield. Haven't gotten a game over yet in the game, and I'm at the last dungeon. Went halfway in to the last dungeon, and doubled back after I beat the last Wanted boss. Semi-unintentionally, but...

Jerthanis: By the end of the game, your main cannons are doing practically as much damage as your Special, especially if you have Main Cannon-boosting crew. The Harpoon and Moonstone cannons make battles far too easy, but they're not required for victory.

Airk
2007-03-01, 09:55 AM
No, you're responding to me saying "X, Y and Z happened to me, and it ruined my appreciation of what I'm sure is a great game." with "X, Y and Z can't happen!" to which I can only respond, "Uh, sure they can."

There was only one "happen" in the list, unless I'm sadly confused. We're both working from memory here, so we're both pretty fallible, I'd say. In any event, there are certainly lots of paralells between the two games, in terms of what you say you don't like, and what you say you do, which I tried to point out.

Disengaging now, thanks.

Edit: Oh, I played the original Dreamcast version, which didn't have the "Wanted" stuff, so any opinions expressed do not apply to content involving those. ;)

Lawful_Stupid
2007-03-01, 06:49 PM
Looking back, they didn't really add much in the GameCube re-release. All that they added was the Wanted battles, the Moonfish sidequest, the few Piastol battles, and a few Discoveries. I'm not sure if the Three Secrets optional boss was added or not, since I've never fought him at all. It's a pain to get the Three Secrets, especially the battles one.

Then again, it's Skies of Arcadia, so who cares if anything was added or not. It's Skies of Arcadia.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-12, 12:57 PM
Well, I finished Skies of Arcadia if it matters to anyone. It kinda cheesed me off when I realized I'd left the game unfinished over spring break when I only had about 20 minutes of dungeon (yay, White Map) and an hour and a half of boss battles left.

Nothing I haven't done before, really. I've blown up the Death Star God knows how many times in various Star Wars games, and I beat Sephiroth when I was 14. Still, at least he used that sword of his this time.

All in all, the ending was good. Typical, but good. I was also amazed at how well Valua seemed to turn out in the end, given that it got, y'know, wiped off the map. Hurray for Enrique's progressive policies, I guess.