Monk feat at 8th?

[SDF]

While gaming last week my friend created a monk character, and was looking at the PHBII feets that monks can take. Several of the entries talk about taking it as the bonus feet for a monk at 8th level. Monks don't get a bonus feet at 8th level. Is it a misprint, or some errata I don't know about?

[Were-Sandwich]

I'd say misprint

[ken-do-nim]

You will also notice in the back of PHII that it suggests monks take improved natural attack at 1st level. Gee, uh, what about that +4 base attack bonus prereq?

PHII is poorly edited.

[Closet_Skeleton]

You will also notice in the back of PHII that it suggests monks take improved natural attack at 1st level. Gee, uh, what about that +4 base attack bonus prereq?

PHII is poorly edited.

It also doesn't work since unarmed strikes aren't natural attacks. They're called natural weapons because their possesor doesn't count as unarmed when using them.

[Thomas]

It also doesn't work since unarmed strikes aren't natural attacks. They're called natural weapons because their possesor doesn't count as unarmed when using them.

That's a whole big argument in itself, but I think this is the one that clinches it:

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Seems like the Improved Natural Attack feat would fall under the definition "effects that enhance or improve... natural weapons."

[Closet_Skeleton]

That's a whole big argument in itself, but I think this is the one that clinches it:

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Seems like the Improved Natural Attack feat would fall under the definition "effects that enhance or improve... natural weapons."

Okay, so that would imply that the feat might work with monks even though it wouldn't work with normal unarmed strikes. It still seems out of character though. That also implies that you could enchant a monk with both greater magic fang and greater magic weapon, not that they'd stack. I guess it lets Monk/Paladins cast Holy Sword and Bless Weapon on their toes.

I don't want to know what 2d10 increases to. Oh well, I looked anyway, 4d6 it seems. Great, a level 17 odd monk with that feat punches harder than a grenade launcher.

[Yuki Akuma]

I think the FAQ says that Improved Natural Attack works with a monk's unarmed strike. Possibly.

[Thomas]

FAQ of 9/20/2006, page 20:


Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (Monster Manual, page 304) to improve his unarmed strike?
Yes. As stated on page 41 of the Player's Handbook, a monk's unarmed strike "is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either" which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack.It goes on to give an example.


I don't want to know what 2d10 increases to. Oh well, I looked anyway, 4d6 it seems. Great, a level 17 odd monk with that feat punches harder than a grenade launcher.

And still sucks in combat. Amazing, huh? 4d6 and whatever tiny bonuses the monk scrapes together is nothing compared to a Power Attacking fighter with a two-handed weapon (and say, oh, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper).

[ken-do-nim]

2d10 improves to 4d8, not 4d6.

Keep in mind that besides lower BAB and an inability to put a high ability score into strength, monks can only get magic weapon/fang or the amulet of mighty fists to improve their unarmed strikes. All the fighters have +1 weapons with tons of various enchantments, then rely on greater magic weapon to supply the rest of the enhancement bonus.

Improved Natural Attack and Ability Focus Stunning Fist are 2 Monster Manual feats that monks should take just to be almost on par with the other classes.

[Bears With Lasers]

I don't want to know what 2d10 increases to. Oh well, I looked anyway, 4d6 it seems. Great, a level 17 odd monk with that feat punches harder than a grenade launcher.

Oh noes! Not 4d6! 14 points of damage on average?! That's bound to cripple CR 17 monsters!

[Pegasos989]

Yeah, improved natural attack makes monks suck lightly less, because it brings damage from 2d10 to 4d8, so from 11 to 18, so 7 points of damage increase on 20th level. Tarrasque has DR 30 and regeneration 40.

Yeah...

[Skyserpent]

That's why Monks should be running around with a stock of 800 healing potions in a handy haversack and being a rapid moving field medic. The Cleric/druid makes potions in his downtime and bashes the crap out of the enemy using tools already at his disposal. problem solved.

[AtomicKitKat]

Back to the original topic, the closest I can figure is that they meant the Monk's 6th level Bonus Feat, but then the BAB requirement makes no sense...

[Skyserpent]

Oh, no I figure it's a bit of a hint for Monks who Multiclass maybe, because a lot use Fighter as a level 1 starting point. Or maybe one of the Ascetic Feats. I dunno...

[Matthew]

Unlike Fighters, Monks don't need to meet the prerequisites to acquire their Bonus Feats... though that rule originally only applied to the Core Feats, I suspect it applies to other Bonus Feats.



Bonus Feat

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedGrapple) or Stunning Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stunningFist) as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes) or Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows) as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedDisarm) or Improved Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTrip) as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.


Monk Bonus Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm)

It would be nice if Fighters had that advantage.

[SpiderBrigade]

Err...it specifically says they can take one or the other of the listed feats at each of those levels. They can't just take any feat. So, no Improved Natural Attack without meeting prereqs.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

FAQ of 9/20/2006, page 20:

It goes on to give an example.



And still sucks in combat. Amazing, huh? 4d6 and whatever tiny bonuses the monk scrapes together is nothing compared to a Power Attacking fighter with a two-handed weapon (and say, oh, Leap Attack and Shock Trooper).

17th level monk with Leap Attack, Raptor School, and Shock Trooper feats. N'uf said. Got that with a VoP Monk/Initiate of Pistis Sophia with the Decisive Strike variantin PHBII. Utterly horrifying amounts of damage =_)

[Bears With Lasers]

Raptor School is terrible, and monks are at a major disadantage when it comes to taking advantae of Power Attack/Shock Trooper synergy. Decisive Strike is its own action and can't be combined with a charge.

[Matthew]

Err...it specifically says they can take one or the other of the listed feats at each of those levels. They can't just take any feat. So, no Improved Natural Attack without meeting prereqs.

Sure, but those were the only Bonus Monk Feats at the time. I don't know whether all Bonus Monk Feats follow the same rules in expansions, I only suspect that they do (which is what I said).

[ken-do-nim]

Sure, but those were the only Bonus Monk Feats at the time. I don't know whether all Bonus Monk Feats follow the same rules in expansions, I only suspect that they do (which is what I said).

PHII introduces some new feats that can be taken as monk bonus feats (hence this thread), but Improved Natural Attack isn't one of them. I maintain it is just poor editing. You know, like that 300 gp enlarge person potion? It happens.

[Matthew]

Fair enough. That seems to make sense.

[Skyserpent]

PHII introduces some new feats that can be taken as monk bonus feats (hence this thread), but Improved Natural Attack isn't one of them. I maintain it is just poor editing. You know, like that 300 gp enlarge person potion? It happens.


I agree, I think that they just messed up trying to make an interesting and different starting package. I mean, He also has Weapon Focus. BAB +1 requirement anybody?

[Devils_Advocate]

Raptor School is terrible, and monks are at a major disadantage when it comes to taking advantae of Power Attack/Shock Trooper synergy. Decisive Strike is its own action and can't be combined with a charge.
You forgot to add how Vow of Poverty is inferior to what you can buy with standard wealth for your level, makes monks useless against flying foes, etc. :smallwink: