[3.5] Turning a Werewolf Warshaper into a Battle Caster

[SoraWolf7]

So I had an idea with the Warshaper that sounded pretty cool to me. A Warshaper that can deliver magic while running around and tearing things apart.

I did some preliminary research before posting this, mostly because I can't decide on what to do. I realize that Duskblade would be great for getting a werewolf into Warshaper by ECL 6, and then continuing the casting class afterward, but it doesn't really feel like what I'm looking for.

In saying that, what I'm looking for is a Werewolf, or other werecreature if you feel so inclined to alter the concept slightly and pitch it to me, that buffs themselves at rounds 1-2, then charges in, shifting mid-run and then tearing his opponent a new nostril or other bodily hole.

Please help me out! I'd like to try to avoid psionics, as I don't really understand how they work.

[Urpriest]

Any particular reason for using a Werewolf, or a Warshaper, as opposed to a shapeshifter in general? There are other sorts of shapeshifting races and PrCs that will give you the same "I am a hungry furry beast who attacks with fang and claw" feel while meshing better with casting. If you're flexible about this, let me know what the goals are in general and it's likely there's something that will fit.

[SoraWolf7]

Well, the werewolf bit is a more aesthetic thing for me, so if you feel the need to replace it or Warshaper, go right ahead.

Basically, I just like the idea of a character who can turn themselves into a beast or beast-like creature, and then tear into an opponent. What can I say, I like my melee combat.

[Dessembrae]

I'd ditch Werewolf for sure and substitute maybe Shifter or Changeling to qualify for warshaper.

If magic is going to be a significant part of your build you wanna try and lose as few spellcasting levels as possible. An afflicted werewolf loses 4 levels, a natural werewolf loses 5.

Shifter matches the fluff of what you're describing better, Changeling is arguably better because your shapechanging ability can be used constantly, all day long, granting you all the fun stuff from Warshaper.

[Yogibear41]

1 level of druid with shapechanger afc gets you the ability to change at will (although you gear doesn't function :smallfrown:) a bite attack, a boost to str and nat armor, with warshaper you could create yourself claws and have claws and a bite, and even more if you feel like getting silly. Not sure if you can make the claws primary or if they are stuck as secondary though. Anyway the druid form can basically be anything thats medium sized so you can theme yourself as a "werewolf"

Druid2/Battle Sorcerer4/Warshaper2/Abjurant Champion 5 something like that could work. Although druid 4 gets you a +1 enh on your natural weapons, and druid 5 gets you flight form.


EDIT: crap just realized you can't cast while in this druid acf :smallfrown: houserule maybe? :smallsmile:

Although technically, if you used warshaper to give yourself claw attacks perhaps you have modified your original claws from the druid form enough to allow for at least somatic components of spells?

[Rhatahema]

I don't think you could go wrong with a Druid Shifter. For starters, check out Races of Eberron. There are Shifter druid substitution levels that allow a Shifter to replace their animal companion with a beast spirit (essentially an ongoing buff) and replace Wild Shape with additional benefits to shifting. There are also a handful of useful shifting feats and shifter-only spells (Aspect of the Werebeast).

Outside of that, Spell Compendium has the Bite of the Were-X line of spells, which are great round/level melee buffs. The Weretouched Master PrC (Eberron Campaign Setting) is worth looking at, but check the errata (capstone is nerfed to something not insane).

Any combination of Druid, Warshaper, and Weretouched Master would be viable and fit your concept, I think. I would start with Druid6/Warshaper1/Druid+5, to pick up Bite of the Werebear (6th) at level 12. Weretouched Master is the weakest of the three, so I'd take fewer levels of it. Anyway, hope some of that helps!

[Urpriest]

Well, the werewolf bit is a more aesthetic thing for me, so if you feel the need to replace it or Warshaper, go right ahead.

Basically, I just like the idea of a character who can turn themselves into a beast or beast-like creature, and then tear into an opponent. What can I say, I like my melee combat.

Any preference for turning into a quadrupedal beast-like thing (like the werewolf's wolf form) versus a bipedal beast-like thing (like the hybrid form)?

As others have pointed out, there are a few ways to do this. Shifter is probably the best race for the concept, they get an ability which is already a lot like a werewolf's shapeshifting, just a bit more limited.

Beyond that, you'll want abilities that can turn you into what you want without losing caster levels, and in general that's going to mean Wild Shape or spells. Wild Shape can turn you into animals easily, and it's pretty easy to make a badass melee character out of just Druid 20 if you know what you're doing. With spells, Bite of the Werewolf (or Wererat, or Wereboar, or Weretiger, or Werebear) from the Spell Compendium lets a Druid or Wizard or Sorceror gain traits like a lycanthrope's hybrid form for a few rounds. There are tricks to make the spell last all day if you want it to.

Either way, you probably don't want levels in Warshaper. Warshaper is great on a non-caster, but for a caster it's usually better to take classes that advance casting.

[SoraWolf7]

Any preference for turning into a quadrupedal beast-like thing (like the werewolf's wolf form) versus a bipedal beast-like thing (like the hybrid form)?

As others have pointed out, there are a few ways to do this. Shifter is probably the best race for the concept, they get an ability which is already a lot like a werewolf's shapeshifting, just a bit more limited.

Beyond that, you'll want abilities that can turn you into what you want without losing caster levels, and in general that's going to mean Wild Shape or spells. Wild Shape can turn you into animals easily, and it's pretty easy to make a badass melee character out of just Druid 20 if you know what you're doing. With spells, Bite of the Werewolf (or Wererat, or Wereboar, or Weretiger, or Werebear) from the Spell Compendium lets a Druid or Wizard or Sorceror gain traits like a lycanthrope's hybrid form for a few rounds. There are tricks to make the spell last all day if you want it to.

Either way, you probably don't want levels in Warshaper. Warshaper is great on a non-caster, but for a caster it's usually better to take classes that advance casting.

I'd prefer the character to stay on two legs, and this all makes sense from where you're coming from.

So then with my mind now focused, I'm looking for a Caster who fights like a melee were/shifter character.

[SoraWolf7]

So yeah, it looks like I'd end up at this point going into as a Longclaw Tiger Shifter ACF Druid, then using some combination of Moonspeaker and Weretouched Master to get the result I want, and I can add the Wolf trait using the Extra Shifter Trait Feat from Moonspeaker. Would anyone know of a proposed level breakdown that would work for this?

[Phelix-Mu]

I would like to echo the above poster and say to check the errata for Weretouched Master PrC. I remember two different sources where they changed things (irritatingly), but both were a huge nerf down from the psychotic level of power that the original RAW for the PrC granted. Make sure that your DM approves one version or the other if this character is going to see actual play, and that you understand the rather confusing errata involving the various incarnations of Change Shape (which I seem to recall being brought up in the errata...errata based on errata).

This is an iconic idea, however, and one which isn't particularly easy to replicate in 3.5 (due to ECL being terrible for maintaining power levels). Moonspeaker is a crazy awesome PrC, but it fits more with a summoner-type concept, usually. I'd like to see a melee-oriented Moonspeaker, though, and I'm sure it could be done.

Consider the Wild Shifting substitution level for shifter druid if you are taking 5 druid levels. You lose Wild Shape, but your shifting gets a big buff and keys off Wisdom instead of Con. This synergizes well with the all-day buffs granted by the Beast Spirit substitution level feature for the earlier druid level. Eventually, Moonspeaker gives back a mildly nerfed form of Wild Shape anyway, I think, so you don't actually lose out on too much utility in the long run. Also frees up the feat slot for the normally obligatory Natural Spell, allowing more shifter feats!

Also, do check out the druid spells in Races of Eberron. Several are tailored to shifters, and several of them are just generally awesome. Huge insight bonuses to Spot/Listen? Yes, please. Bonuses to Jump/Climb? Sounds awesome for maintaining that shifter flavor. If you have the caster levels, combine with Essence of the Raptor(Spell Compendium) and be awesome.

[Fouredged Sword]

The shapeshifter ACF druid does what you want right out of the tin.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If he wants a Were-wolfish Battle caster it is doable, but you need to have LA buy off available.

Start as Quasi-Lycanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) Human, this get's you Shapeshifer Subtype, At will Disguise self (only minor appeareance, but we will get there soon) and DR 10/Silver which isn't bad.

Go your favourite full bab class for four levels (I suggest Duskblade 2/Warblade 2) and then hop into Warshaper for 3 levels (Don't forget to buy of the LA at level 3)

At this point you have Bab +7, some negligible spellcasting a few maneuvers and some decent HD. Now you hop into Suel Arcanamach (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070829) for some gishing (Duskblade gives you Combat Casting for free at level 2 and you can get Iron Will via Otyough Hole).

Continue Suel till 4 and then hop into other prestige classes such as Abjurant Champion or you can go back and finish Warshaper (but the fast healing isn't that good IMO), true your casting isn't the best, but it is perfectively serviciable

End build
Quasy-Werewolf Duskblade 2/Warblade 2/Warshaper 3/ Suel Arcanamach 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1 (to finish Suel casting)/ Something 3 (Dragon Disciple could nab you some extra spells and more str if you want).

You get 17 BAB 10/10 Suel casting and most Warshaper Goodies.

You need to have at least 15 Cha to cast all your Suel spells, but thanks to the +4 Str/Con courtesty of Warshaper your other stats won't suffer that much.

One important thing is that your Disguise Self ability function as the spell with CL=HD so in order to keep it all day you need to spend a standard action every 10 or so minutes, might be anoying but what ever.

[Nocharim]

In case you still want a gish werebeast.

Duskblade 1/Animal 1/Duskblade +3/Warshaper 2/Ur-Priest 2/Black Blood Hunter 3/Ordained Champion 3/Divine Abjurant Champion 5 (Or Ur-Priest +5)

Pros:
Serval/Lynx/Caracal as base animal for Pounce or another 1 HD animal.
Access to DMM Persistent Spell (Divine Power).
+16 BAB, 9th Level Divine Spellcasting.
Channel Spell from two sources.
Beefed up hybrid form.

Cons:
Loses the reach from Warshaper 3, but gets the earlier goodies.
Very feat hungry due to Black Blood Hunter.
Skill hungry as well, human advised if not required.
Fluff Rapey when it comes to deities.
Locked to Evil alignments.
Uses an adaptation to a PrC, which may not fly for most DM's.
Assumes level adjustment buyoff.

Ur-Priest can be replaced with another fast casting progression PrC such as Divine Crusader, but that offers less flexibility when it comes to casting. Most of the latter half can be just ripped off and replaced with an arcane build if divine casting is not desired.

Still need to hammer out a few kinks in the build and double-check for mechanical illegalities.

[SoraWolf7]

So this is the build I THINK I might end up using, thanks to Dusk and Nocharim.

Quasi-Werewolf Human

Duskblade4/Warshaper3/Suel Arcanamarch4/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1/Dragon Disciple3.

With being able to take Iron Will as a feat, or going to the Otyough Hole as suggested by Dusk, I can easily run through to Warshaper, Suel, AC, Spellsword, and DD.

I'd end up with an +18 BAB, +15 Fort, +8 Reflex, and +18 Will at level 20, 10/10 Suel Casting, DR10 Silver, A Breath weapon thanks to level 3 of DD (which might be cold to emulate the Winter Wolf), a natural bite and claws that can be empowered through transmutation spells and Morphic Weapons, get a +6 to Str and +4 to Con, and cast as an 18th-level Suel. I also get two bonus spells as a Dragon Disciple, so there's that too.

I do realize I'd be missing out on maneuvers, but this build is made without ToB in mind, for those DMs who don't like it for some reason or another.

[WhamBamSam]

Practiced Manifester Ardent into Slayer might be a nice way to go, since werewolves get Track as a bonus feat and a racial Wis bonus. Use the Substitute Power ACF to build your own Mantles with the necessary gish powers off the PsyWar list (Expansion to get bigger and meaner, Psionic Lion's Charge because pounce is good, Form of Doom as your DM is probably not letting you make arbitrary numbers of natural weapons with Morphic Weapons)

Ardent 1/Afflicted Werewolf 2/Ardent +3/Warshaper 4/Slayer 10 gets you 9th level powers and 17 BAB along with all the Warshaper goodies except Flashmorph.

[SoraWolf7]

So aside from Iron Will, what feats should I actually use here? I want to focus on the idea of tearing something to bits, so weapon feats might be out. Metamagic would be good, for casting while in were-form. Any other ideas?

[IronFist]

Shifter Duskblade 4/Warshaper 4

[Dusk Eclipse]

Doesn't Warshaper have a clause that all it's abilities only work when you are in a form other than you own? If that is the case then Shifter is a terrible way to do it, since you have such few rounds to shift.

Edit: Yep, right there under the Class Features heading in page 90



All of the following are class features of the Warshaper. The class features only function when the warshaper is in a form other than her own (which for dopplegangers and phasm warshapers is most of the time).

[Urpriest]

Doesn't Warshaper have a clause that all it's abilities only work when you are in a form other than you own? If that is the case then Shifter is a terrible way to do it, since you have such few rounds to shift.

Edit: Yep, right there under the Class Features heading in page 90

These builds are using Quasi-Werewolf, which can presumably be in a different form constantly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was responding to Iron Fist's suggestion of using Shifter, besides I was the one to suggest Quasi-lycanthrope in the first place :smallwink:

[Urpriest]

I was responding to Iron Fist's suggestion of using Shifter, besides I was the one to suggest Quasi-lycanthrope in the first place :smallwink:

Ah I see.

Still, a properly optimized Shifter is Shifting for every combat anyway, otherwise you're not really getting full benefit from the race.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It means using almost all your feats in [Shifter] feats and while they are some which are really good (shifter savagery, Longtooth elite) most are decent at best. I usually ask to houserule Shifting to advance like a barbarians rage, 1+1 every four levels or so per day.