Sublime Chord Build

[Ortesk]

Since my group has dubbed me go to guy for getting advice on here for them, Now i must approch he playground on a sublime chord build. The player wants as good of a build i can get for him. He is human, 5 flaws, and gets Bard Level+Charisma mod a day in bardic music (so no need for extra music) he is not good at builds per se, and my specialty is melee so now i come here for help. He will use some dragonfire and snowflake wardance (i think is name) but he wants spell casting power as well, which is why he wants a beastly sub chord build. Thanks in advance folks

[Grod_The_Giant]

Something like Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso (progressing SC) 9 works pretty well. Or maybe Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 8/any arcane advancing 1, if you want a bit more inspire courage.

If you play a Silverbrow Human, you can qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration.

[Talya]

See signature.

Okay, maybe not ideal for most groups. :smallbiggrin:

[Ortesk]

Something like Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso (progressing SC) 9 works pretty well. Or maybe Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 8/any arcane advancing 1, if you want a bit more inspire courage.

If you play a Silverbrow Human, you can qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration.

As powerful as virtuoso is, i doubt he wants to eat the CL loss. But i'll try selling it, its really nice

[eggynack]

As powerful as virtuoso is, i doubt he wants to eat the CL loss. But i'll try selling it, its really nice
If you do it with the virtuoso before the sublime chord for a level, you don't get the CL loss. You get a whole new spell system, and then you pull in the PrC with its cost already paid. My favorite sublime chord build is something like a bard 7/war weaver 1/virtuoso 1/uncanny trickster 1/sublime chord 1/war weaver 4/uncanny trickster 2/virtuoso 3. That build simultaneously bypasses the lost caster level of three separate classes, which I think is neat.

[Ortesk]

See signature.

Okay, maybe not ideal for most groups. :smallbiggrin:

I like it, But he's NE and well, wont change that. He's a suave dashing young man by night, and an evil murderer by night. But his vanity would be well suited by that build

[Ortesk]

Also is there an evil WoC? he really wants to stack dragonfire, Hes gonna pick up leadership and with bagpipes lead an army lol

[Keld Denar]

There is no evil WoC. He'll have to deal with just a Insp Boost + Badge of Valor + Songs of the Heart + normal basic IC progression.

Virtuoso is ok, but it's abilities aren't that impressive. A lot of people like to put it onto SC builds, but I haven't personally seen it make that big of a difference. You'd probably be better off gishing that spellcasting with something like AbjChamp. He could even fit in some boring old Eldritch Knight if the 1st level is taken before level 11. You'd take a hit to your music progression, but it's not like you'll be advancing IC anymore anyways, since neither Virtuoso nor SC advances IC.

[Ortesk]

There is no evil WoC. He'll have to deal with just a Insp Boost + Badge of Valor + Songs of the Heart + normal basic IC progression.

Virtuoso is ok, but it's abilities aren't that impressive. A lot of people like to put it onto SC builds, but I haven't personally seen it make that big of a difference. You'd probably be better off gishing that spellcasting with something like AbjChamp. He could even fit in some boring old Eldritch Knight if the 1st level is taken before level 11. You'd take a hit to your music progression, but it's not like you'll be advancing IC anymore anyways, since neither Virtuoso nor SC advances IC.

What about giving IotSV in the build, pick up a level at 9, a level in sub at 20, then go iotsv until 26, then finish with abjur champ or so?

[Keld Denar]

I don't really deal in 21+ builds. They don't matter. Just take Epic Spellcasting and write "I Win" at the top of your sheet.

[Ortesk]

I don't really deal in 21+ builds. They don't matter. Just take Epic Spellcasting and write "I Win" at the top of your sheet.

No its a 20 build, im thinking an IotSV would be really solid (he can finish it by level 17 after i looked)

[TiaC]

Prestige Bard gets faster IC progression, If you take Chaos Music and a Vest of Legends, you can have +4 IC from level 10.

[herrhauptmann]

I also think that bard6/abjurantchamp4/sublimechord would be a great way to go for this character.
If you can find a way to swing all martial weapons, go Spellsword 1 as well.

I did have a build from Zinc Saucier which made use of SC, but it lost a few caster levels with swiftblade added into the mix. So I can pull it out if needed, but it's not too useful for this purpose.

[A_S]

A build from a gish-only party I posted about a while back:

Silverbrow Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 8
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 15

1 - Bard 1 - Lingering Song, Dragonfire Inspiration
2 - Bard 2
3 - Bard 3 - Snowflake Wardance
4 - Bard 4 - Cha 16
5 - Bard 5
6 - Crusader 1 - Song of the White Raven
7 - Bard 6 - Song of the Heart (b)
8 - Bard 7 - Cha 17
9 - Warblade 1 - Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots)
10 - Druid 1
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Sublime Chord 2 - Open Least Chakra (feet), Cha 18
13 - Fochlucan Lyrist 1
14 - Fochlucan Lyrist 2
15 - Fochlucan Lyrist 3 - Arcane Strike
16 - Fochlucan Lyrist 4 - Cha 19
17 - Fochlucan Lyrist 5
18 - Fochlucan Lyrist 6 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord)
19 - Fochlucan Lyrist 7
20 - Fochlucan Lyrist 8 - Wis 15

ACF's: Eberron Bard (Suggestion > Song of the Heart at level 7), Healing Hymn, Savage Bard, Spellbreaker Song, Swift and Deadly Hunter, Urban Companion, Urban Sense, Voice of the City

Skills:

1 (32) - Balance 4, Concentration 3, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Listen 4, Perform (dance) 4, Perform (stringed instruments) 1, Sleight of Hand 4, Spellcraft 4, Tumble 4
2 (8) - Balance 5, Gather Information 1, Knowledge (nature) 5, Listen 5, Perform (dance) 5 Sleight of Hand 5, Spellcraft 5, Tumble 5
3 (8) - Gather Information 3, Knowledge (arcana) 2, Listen 6, Perform (dance) 6, Sleight of Hand 6, Spellcraft 6
4 (8) - Gather Information 5, Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 7, Sleight of Hand 7
5 (8) - Gather Information 7, Knowledge (arcana) 8, Listen 8, Perform (stringed instruments) 4
6 (6) - Concentration 6, Diplomacy 7
7 (8) - Knowledge (arcana) 10, Listen 10, Perform (stringed instruments) 8
8 (8) - Knowledge (arcana) 11, Listen 11, Perform (stringed instruments) 10, Profession (astrologer) 4
9 (6) - Concentration 10, Knowledge (arcana) 12 (cc)
10 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 13 (cc), Listen 13, Profession (astrologer) 6
11 (6) - Decipher Script 1, Knowledge (nature) 7, Perform (stringed instruments) 13
12 (6) - Decipher Script 7
13 (8) - Concentration 16, SKILL TRICK: Conceal Spellcasting
14 (8) - Bluff 5, Concentration 17, Diplomacy 8, Perform (dance) 7
15 (8) - Bluff 8, Concentration 18, Diplomacy 9, Perform (dance) 8, SKILL TRICK: Social Recovery
16 (8) - Concentration 19, Diplomacy 10, Perform (dance) 10, Spellcraft 8, SKILL TRICK: False Theurgy
17 (8) - Concentration 20, Diplomacy 13, Perform (dance) 14
18 (8) - Concentration 21, Diplomacy 17, Perform (dance) 17
19 (8) - Concentration 22, Diplomacy 20, Perform (dance) 21
20 (8) - Concentration 23, Diplomacy 23, Perform (dance) 23, SKILL TRICK: Listen to This

Balance: 5
Bluff: 8
Concentration: 23
Decipher Script: 7
Diplomacy: 23
Gather Information: 7
Knowledge (arcana): 13
Knowledge (nature): 7
Listen: 13
Perform (dance): 23
Perform (stringed instruments): 13
Profession (astrologer): 6
Sleight of Hand: 7
Spellcraft: 8
Tumble: 5

Skill Tricks: Conceal Spellcasting, False Theurgy, Social Recovery, Listen to This

Base Saves:
Fort: +10
Ref: +11
Will: +16

Maneuvers:
6 - Battle Leader's Charge, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames, Mountain Hammer, Vanguard Strike, Bolstering Voice (stance)
9 - Action Before Thought, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Punishing Stance (stance)
Gets: 16 BAB
Full Sublime Chord casting
Inspire Courage as Bard 17, other songs as Bard 15, DFI
A few utility maneuvers, including WRT
Gish feats (Arcane Strike, Snowflake Wardance)
Druid spells up to level 5, which gets you the full Heart of X line, Acorn of Far Travel, and various other utility goodies
Fight with a Crystal Echoblade for extra damage (single longsword works with Snowflake Wardance, too). Take advantage of the Harmonize spell and Song of the White Raven to use your Bardic Music as whatever type of action you want, which lets you start fights with the following progression:

Round 1:
Swift: Inspirational Boost
Standard: Harmonize
Move: Inspire Courage (DFI)

Round 2:
Swift: Inspire Courage (no DFI)
Move: Inspire Greatness
Standard: Cast a spell or attack

Round 3 on: Fight and cast as normal

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to keep it simple, Bard 8/ Virtuoso 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8. That gets Bard 9 casting and Sublime Chord 10 casting, at a caster level of 19 in both. All ten levels of Virtuoso class features, Inspire Courage at a base +2, etc. Trade Hypnotism for Healing Hymn in CC, it works with Cure Minor Wounds. Trade your Suggestion song for Song of the Heart per ECS. Trade Countersong for Spellbreaker Song in CM. Trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack in PH2.

Make him a Silverbrow Human in Dragon Magic, get Dragonfire Inspiration in Dragon Magic, Melodic Casting in CM, Inspirational Boost in SC, a Badge of Valor in MIC, and if good/exalted get Words of Creation in BoED. That will allow him to Inspire Courage for +9d6 fire damage to everyone's attacks, including his own bow attacks and any natural weapons on animal companions or wild cohorts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). Obtain Familiar in CA plus Improved Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFamiliar) (more choices in CW) is also fairly good. Give him an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) for a unique companion similar to Drizz't's Guenhwyvar.

Use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) to get around the limited number of spells known. The Raiment of the Four set in MIC is also quite useful for this. A Runestaff counts as a Quarterstaff, which is a double weapon and can hold two Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape. Put a Wand of Wings of Cover (RotD) at caster level 6 in it and get max ranks in Use Magic Device. An Elvencraft (RotW) (Composite) Longbow can be used as a Quarterstaff as well as a bow, it can be a Runestaff and it can also hold a third Wand Chamber, but you'll want to gain longbow proficiency to shoot with it. Definitely include the feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon, and Lyric Spell from CV is also extremely useful. The Summon Elemental reserve feat in CM is fantastic for Nodwicking traps.

[Socratov]

I'll give you my favorite bard build (*hint, it's similar to what you allready found here):

CG Human Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8
ACFs: Healing Hymn, spellbreaker song, trade suggestion for Song of the heart, Bardick Knack
Flaws: pick 5

Feats:
Dragontouched
Dragon Fire Inspiration
Jack of All trades
Draconic Heritage [pick dragon with sonic breathweapon]
Able learner (never leave home without it)
Lingering Song
Versatile Performer
Words of Creation
Chaos Music (to mitigate the loss of IC levels due to SC)
Lingering Song
Versatile Performer

Just fit any of these in there and you're golden, with 5 flaws it shouldn't really be a problem.

Equipment:

Vest of legends
Chrystal Echoblade
masterwork Alphorn

Fighting routine:

round 1: pop inspirational boost, use SotH, IC/DFI with masterwork horn, use WoC (thisorder is important),

round 2: pop inspirational boost, use SotH, IC/DFI (whichever you did not use in round 1)with masterwork horn, use WoC (thisorder is important),

now you add to people's attack (at lvl 20 with chaos music and vest of legends):

+14d6 of sonic damage (if chosen apropriate heritage dragon)
and

+14 to to-hit and dmg. Not bad for a 2 round routine. both effects last for enough rounds (lingering song)

` due to vest of legends and/or chaos music

round 3: you can throw spells, dance the dance macabre (i.e. snowflake wardance), or do whatever you want

[Talya]

Stuff

You actually made good use of the Fochlucan Lyrist. I'm seriously impressed. I like it.

[Eldonauran]

EDIT: Nevermind - Move along

[Talya]

The problem with this build is that ... it doesn't work. See below, bolded for effect.



Since levels of Sublime Chord are taken after aquiring the Virtuoso levels, Sublime Chord is an illegal choice for spellcasting increases from Virtuoso.

Spells per Day/Spells Known prestige class advancement just doesn't work the way you are using it. :smallfrown:

If you read what you quoted, it doesn't say you choose once at first level which spellcasting class to increase. You have to choose every time you gain a new PrC level which spellcasting class to increase.

[Ortesk]

Okay everyone thanks for all the help. hes going bard 9/virto 1/sublime 1/virto 9 for the more bardic like abilities that virto gets. Hes gonna have alot of musical choices due to scrapping bards for acf features, but virtuoso gives some nice ones. also dm ruled virto will get amount a day = to level+cha bonus. Personally i said go IotSV but its kind of banned (once dm had me make a level 18 boss before real campaign boss, was told go crazy. even being bad with spellcasters, the wizard/master spec/incantrix/init was tpk, since then no bueno )