Advice for handling a DMPC

[Scumbaggery]

Greetings playground.

I'm currently stuck in a little dilemma. My DM has recently become increasingly adamant on having a DMPC. Normally this would not bother me, as he has claimed multiple times that he won't do anything in combat or solve puzzles for us, yadda yadda.

The point of this DMPC was to craft us magical items in a low-gold campaign. The build is Artificer//Wizard 9, currently. He doesn't actually know much about magic, but wanted to be able to buff the party while making us stuff. This would be fine had this actually happened.

Instead, we are running around with about 700 gold each at level 9, with one wondrous item each. Kinda sucks. Not to mention, the DMPC in question has been DM hacked to the point of ridiculousness by being able to control a Diminutive mechanical crab army with numbers reaching into the thousands. His latest achievement is using these crabs to steal the glory from not only me, but another rogue as well by dumping said crabs down a chimney and stealing everything for him without any setbacks. Glorious. He has even taken the leadership feat to gain ANOTHER character in the form of a Warforged monk with DM hax magical items.

I have tried talking to him, even telling him that it makes me and the other players really uncomfortable having a DMPC with such power walking around and that we would much prefer not having it in the game. His response was telling me not to worry about it, the guy is a coward and doesn't fight. This would be fine if he wasn't glory-hogging and using his newly obtained Warfoged cohort to supersede this and fight anyway.

I have a few options in front of me:
1. Leave. I really don't like this option. The DM is one of my best friends, soon to be roommate, and the only person I know who will DM other than myself.

2. Kill the DMPC. I am playing a CE caster and it is well within my power to do so, but I can already feel DM fiat on the horizon for that option. Not to mention I don't really wanna start table drama anyway.

So I ask you, oh wise and knowledgeable play-grounders, what should I do?

[Deathra13]

I can understand your lack of desire to walk, however this is a tough problem, with no easy solution. Killing the dmpc is unlikely to happen if he has gone that all out on building one. I would recommend one of your current players take up dming to show how its done properly. If he refuses to step down or demands to continue playing his dmpc, either the new dm can kill it off through a variety of methods. However unfortunately if you really arent willing to dm and no one else is, your options are going to come down to, put up with it and play a game you dont enjoy, or walk. You could maybe get all the players together to flat out state that you are done playing, or the final option that is most likely to cause the dm the most grief, don't do anything in game, have your characters just hang at a tavern and refuse to go anywhere, let the dmpc handle the problems himself, if the dm takes the time to play out the encounters, bring smartphones, handheld game systems etc.

Wish I had more help to offer you, but good luck.

[Arbane]

Step 1: Talk to the DM. Again.
Step 2: When that fails, you have a wide variety of options, all of them obnoxious.
2a: Quitting (or at least 'taking a break') is probably the least friendship-destroying one.
2b: Trying to kill the DMPC is going to result in bad feelings, even in the vanishingly unlikely situation that you succeed. But if the DM pulls out massive fiat to save the DMPC, call him on it.
2c: Whenever a problem comes up during the game, tell DMPC "it's for YOU." The go back to playing on your Game Boy.
2d: tell the DM you're thinking of switching characters, and ask the GM how YOU'D go about playing something like the DMPC. If he says you can't, start grilling him on WHY.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm currently stuck in a little dilemma. My DM has recently become increasingly adamant on having a DMPC. Normally this would not bother me, as he has claimed multiple times that he won't do anything in combat or solve puzzles for us, yadda yadda.

The point of this DMPC was to craft us magical items in a low-gold campaign. The build is Artificer//Wizard 9, currently. He doesn't actually know much about magic, but wanted to be able to buff the party while making us stuff. This would be fine had this actually happened.

I'll stop it here for one reason.

The reasoning behind it is sound (a character meant to remain in the sidelines, working to craft magic items for you), and had the DM kept to it, I would have placed it as a good way to play a DMPC.

Oh, just one bit: are you playing a Gestalt game? The notation you gave feels like the DMPC is Gestalted, but you didn't mention whether you are Gestalted. Otherwise, that'd be the first mistake.


Instead, we are running around with about 700 gold each at level 9, with one wondrous item each. Kinda sucks. Not to mention, the DMPC in question has been DM hacked to the point of ridiculousness by being able to control a Diminutive mechanical crab army with numbers reaching into the thousands. His latest achievement is using these crabs to steal the glory from not only me, but another rogue as well by dumping said crabs down a chimney and stealing everything for him without any setbacks. Glorious. He has even taken the leadership feat to gain ANOTHER character in the form of a Warforged monk with DM hax magical items.

...but here is where your DM makes the same mistake as many other DMs who make a DMPC; they forget the players are the heroes, and any DMPC is meant to work a supporting role to them, not to be the main hero.

Furthermore; not allowing Leadership to you, but allowing it to his DMPC? That's no longer a healthy place to play in.


I have tried talking to him, even telling him that it makes me and the other players really uncomfortable having a DMPC with such power walking around and that we would much prefer not having it in the game. His response was telling me not to worry about it, the guy is a coward and doesn't fight. This would be fine if he wasn't glory-hogging and using his newly obtained Warfoged cohort to supersede this and fight anyway.

I'd say, do it one more time. Say that you're uncomfortable playing with a DMPC with such power walking around, exactly as you said so, but deliberately leaving aside words such as "Artificer", "Wizard", and anything regarding those. If he responds that the guy is a coward, respond with "but I wasn't speaking about the Wizard; I'm speaking about his Monk cohort!"

BTW: have you considered posting this on the SUE Files thread on General Roleplaying? I wouldn't dare you to read that too much (if you value your sanity), but it will make you feel better about your DM.


I have a few options in front of me:
1. Leave. I really don't like this option. The DM is one of my best friends, soon to be roommate, and the only person I know who will DM other than myself.

2. Kill the DMPC. I am playing a CE caster and it is well within my power to do so, but I can already feel DM fiat on the horizon for that option. Not to mention I don't really wanna start table drama anyway.

So I ask you, oh wise and knowledgeable play-grounders, what should I do?

Leave. That's the best option. If he doesn't have other players to work with, he'll probably notice and perhaps apologize. It might not happen, though; personally, it's pretty hard to remain in the sidelines when you control a DMPC (possible, but hard), and the temptation is strong. You may need to shock him a bit to make him react.

Alternatively, make another of your fellow players DM a short game. If you have an experienced player, this may be a good experience. Make it short and simple, maybe a pre-made adventure, at a level you feel comfortable with, and let your fellow player's imagination fly a bit. Perhaps you may find someone else who can DM, and give your friend a lesson.

[Darrin]

I'd try something like:

3. Embarrass him. If the DMPC's name is Bruce, then every PC renames themselves Bruce's Herald, Bruce's Hairstylist, Bruce's Footwasher. Every problem you encounter, bring it to Bruce to solve because obviously this a job for his crabs or Warforged or for his brilliant intellect. Refuse to do anything unless Bruce takes the lead. When he does anything, praise his benevolent leadership. Lay it on THICK. If all the players pitch in, then hopefully he'll get the message.

[Killer Angel]

Ah, all the threads where we discuss about how much DMPCs can be detrimental to the game... :smallsigh:

I feel sorry for you, but if leaving is not an option, talk with the other players and, all togheter, speak again with him and tell him that you want to play a group of adventurers without a DMPC.

[hymer]

I'll echo the 'take a break' sentiment. I wouldn't make it dramatic, and I'd try to avoid a case of 'he goes or I go'. As time passes, either you will feel less annoyed (or more attracted) and come back, the DMPC will go away, or the game will end.

You may want to gauge the other players' opinions. If they like having the DMPC on board, it seems the DM isn't wrong to keep him.

[Alienist]

You don't want to stop playing, you don't want to start a rebellion, and you don't want to get all passive aggressive (because you're going to have to live with this guy soon).

The answer is actually quite simple. What you need is emotional detachment from the outcomes.

You don't have to go totally buddha and shed all attachment to physical reality, but not caring is the only way to beat a catch-22.

Doesn't mean you can't have fun. Spend more time focusing on the roleplaying aspect of the game, rather than the rollplaying, or dice rolling and mechanical side of things.

Lastly, as for the being overshadowed thing, yeah, this is what happens in 3.5

Even without DM cheese there's no way your rogue can keep up with tier 1 and 2 pcs at higher levels. That's the whole point of the tier system. If you're not casting spells you've already lost at 3.5, you just don't know it yet.

[Keneth]

I'm inclined to agree with the others, if talking doesn't work, taking a break is probably the best idea.

It's always unfortunate to see DMPC gone wrong stories. It gives DMPCs a bad reputation.

[Aran Thule]

Try talking again, and see how the other players feel.
If the DMPC was supposed to remain in town and craft then remind them that.
If they still want the character to go alone then have your character go off solo or stay behind.
That should express the situation without having to resort to violence against the dmpc

[killem2]

What a dbag DM. Gives DM who know how to use a DMPC a bad name.

He should have stopped at using it to make magic items for the party. Would have been a perfect way to buff the party. I don't get the crab thing. Sounds like some stupid d&d dream he's always wanted to do but has gotten destroyed by other DMs. :smallyuk:

[lytokk]

I think part of it is you have to make him realize what he's doing. Try chatting up some barmaid in a tavern, just role playing. "Remember when I killed that hydra, oh wait, that was Bruce. Well, what about the time I saved the princess, oh wait, Bruce again" Its a little passive aggressive, but part of the bad DMPC is that DM's don't always realize what they're doing. Living in a state of denial in order to have fun, and thinking everyone else is having fun just watching him have fun.

If you don't want to do the passive aggressive approach, just talk to the rest of the players, make sure there is a consensus about no one having fun, and let the DM know that. Let him know that you're still his friend, but things just aren't fun with the DMPC winning all the encounters by himself. And let him know that the warforged and the crab army are all part of the DMPC.

[WebTiefling]

I'll post a bit of my own DMPC story and how we "resolved" it.

We're playing along OK (new friend DM), when a player had to leave. The DM takes over his character to fade him out of the storyline. Instead, the entire party was forced to take a couple months break while the now-DMPC became a Lich. We tried doing stuff, but it failed in the manner of "you don't find anything", "they're gone and no one knows where they went", etc.

Finally, the Lich was done, and he came along with us. It one-shotted most things, and the spells it was casting no longer even closely resembled D&D spells, and it seemed to have nearly unlimited spells.

We players talked to him, and the DM insisted that the DMPC was just "helping the party when you need it" and making the exact spells took too much work, so he was just "using general spellcasting abilities". We told him that there were encounters where we didn't do anything (literally, the Lich killed everything before we got a round to act), but he told us it wasn't a problem. :smallfurious:

After one more session with things continuing exactly as they had before (with all of us complaining loudly the whole session to no avail both IC and OOC), none of us players seemed to be available for gaming for several months.

We finally started a new campaign, declaring the old one dead.

Sometimes the only thing to do is stop the campaign. Don't kill the gaming group, but kill the campaign.

Don't do it until after you've exhausted all the talking possibilities, though, and make sure that whatever you do, you get the whole group of players to agree and act together.

[nedz]

Another of these threads :smallsigh:

I'm sure the DM in question believes that he knows what he's doing and that it's all working out just fine; which, of course, is the problem.

If you can't talk to the DM try talking to the rest of the players. Ideally, at the start of the next session, have everyone tell him what they think. If that doesn't work, well he's beyond hope.

[Shred-Bot]

I assume all the crabs are dual-wielding diminuitive katanas? :smalltongue:

Since all your players seem to be on the same page here, can you have ALL your characters go off solo? Like EVERYONE just ditch the guy and his robo-army in the nearest town/forest/volcano/demi-elemental plane of ranch dressing/whatever?

Or, just next time it makes sense, (in character) say something like "Forsooth! My dearest friend, it is time we parted ways. I fear that thine artifice and wizardry hath made us all a bit redundant, and thou wouldst achieve much greater glory without us as companions. Go forth! And think on us fondly."

(Feel free to change the speech patterns if your characters don't speak in intermittent Olde English.)

[Person_Man]

The best solution I can offer is to simply volunteer to be DM yourself, and then run a game without a DMPC.

It's his game. He knows your opinion but has decided to take it in another direction. So I would just suck it up and deal with it for the time being, and to try your best to quickly plow through his plot line until it's done, so that you can move on to a better game without the annoyance of a DMPC.

[Tim Proctor]

I'd try something like:

3. Embarrass him. If the DMPC's name is Bruce, then every PC renames themselves Bruce's Herald, Bruce's Hairstylist, Bruce's Footwasher. Every problem you encounter, bring it to Bruce to solve because obviously this a job for his crabs or Warforged or for his brilliant intellect. Refuse to do anything unless Bruce takes the lead. When he does anything, praise his benevolent leadership. Lay it on THICK. If all the players pitch in, then hopefully he'll get the message.
This is really funny and I think it would be fun to do this, I'd also research a bunch of jokes about crabs and talk about Bruce's crabs and the troll hag that gave him the crabs.

In honesty, I would talk to him again, and be straight out and tell him what your options are and ask his advice.

On a side note: I will say its nice to see someone that talked to the GM first before just complaining about them.

[BRC]

You're not dealing with a DMPC, you're dealing with a shiny new toy.

If you're lucky, the DM honestly realizes why DMPC's are a bad thing, and is just too distracted with his shiny artificer to realize that just because the Artificer HIMSELF is not hogging the spotlight, his army of crabs and warforged monk ARE, which is JUST AS BAD.

You need to get everybody together and confront the DM. Say that the game simply isn't fun with the Crab Army. Say that what he's doing is the DMPC of holding your finger an inch from somebody's eye and saying "not touching you!" over and over.
Say that the crabs and the Warforged are just as much part of the DMPC as the DMPC himself. That what the DM is doing is like having a fighter DMPC kill all the enemies, then say "Well the DMPC didn't do anything, it was his sword that killed them"

I think he had this whole "Cowardly DMPC" idea, which in itself is fine, and kept that in his head even as he expanded his ways to steal glory, all while saying to himself "It's okay, the DMPC is a coward and won't cause problems".

If the DM still refuses, then he's either egotistical or a total idiot, and walk out.

[malmblad]

I really think that DMPC should just disappear as a word (acronym). All DMPCs are just NPCs. Calling an NPC a DMPC validates a potentially bad DM habit.

The enjoyment that players get from the game isn't the same as what a DM should be getting out of the game. When DMs cross that line and starts treading in player territory, they are effectively taking fun away from the players. It's an easy line to cross. Some players are okay with an NPC taking an active role in their adventuring group, but if players aren't the DM should respect that because there is a reason why a line was drawn between PCs and NPCs.

Your DM should be gently reminded that he shouldn't be playing a DMPC. He should be playing an NPC. If your DM wants to play, your group should come up with alternating games where he can play in one.

[nedz]

Even a well run DMPC takes the DM's focus away from what they should be doing — A DM should already have enough to do and has most of the spotlight in the game anyway. It also causes a conflict of interest and unavoidable metagaming.

I frequently have NPCs accompany the party, but it's always on a temporary basis and I invariably have one of the players run them.

[137beth]

I assume all the crabs are dual-wielding diminuitive katanas? :smalltongue:


"Basically, everyone is so amazed at how awesome the katana using robot crabs are that they don't mind if you are so much weaker."

Which raises the question: does anyone in your party have the ability to hack or disrupt robots? Since that might allow you to get rid of those pesky robot crabs (unless of course they are completely unhackable:smalltongue:


More seriously, though, talk to the rest of the group. Figure out where everybody stands. If the other players feel the same as you, talk to the DM as a group.

[Scumbaggery]

Thanks for the advice everyone. It would be a pain to respond to each individual post, so I'll reply with some general information

Said DM loves to play the game. I can understand that he wants to get involved, but I honestly think the 'shiny new toy' statement might be the closest to how he is feeling, minus the egotist or idiot descriptor.

He isn't doing it to be a jerk or because of lack of intelligence, hence why I'm actively looking for a solution that leaves everyone happy.

The DMPC was actually supposed to travel with us, but whenever something as little as a kobold jumped from behind a rock the guy would run away in typical anime coward fashion.

Now for some quotes.


The best solution I can offer is to simply volunteer to be DM yourself, and then run a game without a DMPC.

I am actually DMing the next campaign when this one is over. We play our campaigns in the same timeline (our group is normally that same 4 people with a random guy as our 5th here and there) so it would be beneficial, albeit not totally necessary, to see how this one plays out.


You don't want to stop playing, you don't want to start a rebellion, and you don't want to get all passive aggressive (because you're going to have to live with this guy soon).

The answer is actually quite simple. What you need is emotional detachment from the outcomes.

You don't have to go totally buddha and shed all attachment to physical reality, but not caring is the only way to beat a catch-22.

Doesn't mean you can't have fun. Spend more time focusing on the roleplaying aspect of the game, rather than the rollplaying, or dice rolling and mechanical side of things.

Lastly, as for the being overshadowed thing, yeah, this is what happens in 3.5

Even without DM cheese there's no way your rogue can keep up with tier 1 and 2 pcs at higher levels. That's the whole point of the tier system. If you're not casting spells you've already lost at 3.5, you just don't know it yet.
This might be the route I have to go, as I have already started drifting in this direction. I'm one of the more avid roleplayers of the group; when we sit down to play I am no longer Steve, but Lord Peregrin, master of Undeath and Thievery.

That said, the DM doesn't know much about arcane magic in the game. He normally rolls big burly men whenever he gets to play, and has claimed that a fighter could take down a wizard (hold the laughter). The rogue I am playing is actually a spellthief 1/sorcerer 4/rogue 1/unseen seer 3 with access to the Hunter's Eye spell via advanced learning. I could conceivably take him out with a single Split Scorching Ray or, even worse next level, a Split Enervation.


I assume all the crabs are dual-wielding diminuitive katanas? :smalltongue:

Since all your players seem to be on the same page here, can you have ALL your characters go off solo? Like EVERYONE just ditch the guy and his robo-army in the nearest town/forest/volcano/demi-elemental plane of ranch dressing/whatever?

Or, just next time it makes sense, (in character) say something like "Forsooth! My dearest friend, it is time we parted ways. I fear that thine artifice and wizardry hath made us all a bit redundant, and thou wouldst achieve much greater glory without us as companions. Go forth! And think on us fondly."

(Feel free to change the speech patterns if your characters don't speak in intermittent Olde English.)
No, but if they did that'd be hilarious were it true :smalltongue:. Instead they have some clause that he says he found that allows them to have a free grapple if 5 or more attack you at once.

Also, Lord Peregrin speaks in refined common with an proper English accent, but doing Olde English now seems 20% better.

[Keneth]

I really think that DMPC should just disappear as a word (acronym).

If you can offer an alternative that makes the same distinction between standard NPCs and GMPCs, we might take it into consideration. :smalltongue:

[Scumbaggery]

I'll stop it here for one reason.

The reasoning behind it is sound (a character meant to remain in the sidelines, working to craft magic items for you), and had the DM kept to it, I would have placed it as a good way to play a DMPC.

Oh, just one bit: are you playing a Gestalt game? The notation you gave feels like the DMPC is Gestalted, but you didn't mention whether you are Gestalted. Otherwise, that'd be the first mistake.

We all had the option to, but none of us did except for him.



...but here is where your DM makes the same mistake as many other DMs who make a DMPC; they forget the players are the heroes, and any DMPC is meant to work a supporting role to them, not to be the main hero.

Furthermore; not allowing Leadership to you, but allowing it to his DMPC? That's no longer a healthy place to play in.

He would allow it, but quite frankly I want nothing to do with it and none of the other players are experienced enough to know how to use it



I'd say, do it one more time. Say that you're uncomfortable playing with a DMPC with such power walking around, exactly as you said so, but deliberately leaving aside words such as "Artificer", "Wizard", and anything regarding those. If he responds that the guy is a coward, respond with "but I wasn't speaking about the Wizard; I'm speaking about his Monk cohort!"

BTW: have you considered posting this on the SUE Files thread on General Roleplaying? I wouldn't dare you to read that too much (if you value your sanity), but it will make you feel better about your DM.

No, but now I'm curious



Leave. That's the best option. If he doesn't have other players to work with, he'll probably notice and perhaps apologize. It might not happen, though; personally, it's pretty hard to remain in the sidelines when you control a DMPC (possible, but hard), and the temptation is strong. You may need to shock him a bit to make him react.

I would be lying if I said that I wasn't in his position before. The last Star Wars campaign I DM'd for them I had a DMPC walk in, make everyone else feel insignificant, and then leave. Left such a bad taste in my mouth I almost folded the campaign before scrapping the character.



Alternatively, make another of your fellow players DM a short game. If you have an experienced player, this may be a good experience. Make it short and simple, maybe a pre-made adventure, at a level you feel comfortable with, and let your fellow player's imagination fly a bit. Perhaps you may find someone else who can DM, and give your friend a lesson.

Here is the problem. Other than him, I am the only one with any DM experience. One of the other players has expressed interest in learning how, so this might be a good reason to let him learn.

I would like to find a fresh group to play with, but most seem too far for me to do anything. Might start scouring the boards on here in the recruitment section soon if this keeps up :smalltongue:




I'll post a bit of my own DMPC story and how we "resolved" it.

We're playing along OK (new friend DM), when a player had to leave. The DM takes over his character to fade him out of the storyline. Instead, the entire party was forced to take a couple months break while the now-DMPC became a Lich. We tried doing stuff, but it failed in the manner of "you don't find anything", "they're gone and no one knows where they went", etc.

Finally, the Lich was done, and he came along with us. It one-shotted most things, and the spells it was casting no longer even closely resembled D&D spells, and it seemed to have nearly unlimited spells.

We players talked to him, and the DM insisted that the DMPC was just "helping the party when you need it" and making the exact spells took too much work, so he was just "using general spellcasting abilities". We told him that there were encounters where we didn't do anything (literally, the Lich killed everything before we got a round to act), but he told us it wasn't a problem. :smallfurious:

After one more session with things continuing exactly as they had before (with all of us complaining loudly the whole session to no avail both IC and OOC), none of us players seemed to be available for gaming for several months.

We finally started a new campaign, declaring the old one dead.

Sometimes the only thing to do is stop the campaign. Don't kill the gaming group, but kill the campaign.

Don't do it until after you've exhausted all the talking possibilities, though, and make sure that whatever you do, you get the whole group of players to agree and act together.

Ouch. This might have to be Plan B or C. The current campaign is taking place in Icewind Dale, which is one of my favorite locations. I have the capacity to kill the campaign, but I'd much rather take it over before that.



As an update, our next session is tomorrow night. So far it looks like my options boil down to:

1. Talk to him again. Will see how this goes.
2. Forget about this campaign and start a new one for me to DM (and I just got attached to my Elf too :smallfrown: )
3. Become apathetic to the situation.
(edit) 4. Leave.

[johnbragg]

I am actually DMing the next campaign when this one is over. We play our campaigns in the same timeline (our group is normally that same 4 people with a random guy as our 5th here and there) so it would be beneficial, albeit not totally necessary, to see how this one plays out.

Is that automatic? Maybe you could run something in a different timeline/setting.

Or maybe you could run an adventure for his DMPC, with one of the players taking over the Warforged Monk and one of the players taking over the army of crabs. Let's say they become self-aware.

MAybe it's time to let your other friend try a one-shot.

And definitely show your DM the SUEfiles blog. I'm sure he doesn't want to be that guy. Especially if you offer to DM for his new pet character.

[Keneth]

and I just got attached to my Elf too :smallfrown:

Here's a twist: Set up the campaign in Faerun, during roughly the same timeline (elves live forever anyway), and use your elf character as a DMPC. :smallbiggrin:

[Scumbaggery]

Is that automatic? Maybe you could run something in a different timeline/setting.

Or maybe you could run an adventure for his DMPC, with one of the players taking over the Warforged Monk and one of the players taking over the army of crabs. Let's say they become self-aware.

MAybe it's time to let your other friend try a one-shot.

And definitely show your DM the SUEfiles blog. I'm sure he doesn't want to be that guy. Especially if you offer to DM for his new pet character.

Not official table rules or anything, just something fun to have so that we can see our old characters doing stuff and what effects their adventures had on the world. One of my older characters is actually coming back as a BBEG, along with one that the DM played at some point in the past when we had someone else who would DM.

I just might do that. His problem is that he relies too much on DM magic to make his characters work, as opposed to the rest of us who actually have to pour through the books to make it happen. He'd actually realize how unfathomable his character actually is if he actually tried to play it.



Here's a twist: Set up the campaign in Faerun, during roughly the same timeline (elves live forever anyway), and use your elf character as a DMPC. :smallbiggrin:

I'm just gonna wait until he becomes a Lich and then have him kill the entire party periodically :smallamused:

[Subaru Kujo]

Not official table rules or anything, just something fun to have so that we can see our old characters doing stuff and what effects their adventures had on the world. One of my older characters is actually coming back as a BBEG, along with one that the DM played at some point in the past when we had someone else who would DM.



That's not that out there. One of my DMs had a carnival in a town called Slade. One of the events was a gladiatorial combat event where in between bouts, there was no healing (participants would be raised if accidentally killed). Our warforged knight made it to the final round, when one of the stars of the last campaign chapter, a half-giant who specialized in armor spike grappling, was rolling in on a winning streak through that event.

So it's most certainly possible to do. Just gotta want to do it.

[johnbragg]

His problem is that he relies too much on DM magic to make his characters work, as opposed to the rest of us who actually have to pour through the books to make it happen. He'd actually realize how unfathomable his character actually is if he actually tried to play it.


Izzat bad? Maybe let him play his Warforged Monk or his army of mechanical crabs? Those have to have some kind of defined abilities--you can run an NPC non-combat spellcaster on DM fiat and handwaving, but I suspect he saw Warforged and wanted to play it/play with it, and I also think he got the mechanical-swarm idea and wanted to play with it.

[Scumbaggery]

Well, me and him and discussion #2.

He's gonna knock off the gestalt and roll with just artificer. Not completely my goal, but a step in the right direction.

His warforged won't be focused on damage, but will instead just go for a trip build. Again, baby steps.

The character himself is gonna keep the mechanicrabs on the spare side. Almost managed to convince him to use 'summon monster' to bring in some made-up crab templates so they'd have a limit, but he is still thinking about it.

I've also decided to take the initiate to correct this in character as well. Mr. Peregrin does not enjoy having his glory stolen, and will threaten the DMPC with death if he does it again.

We will see how this goes...

[Tim Proctor]

That's good that he's working with you on the issue.

[Segev]

Honestly, the problem is that he's a member of the party who has fiat-level success. Even if he's doing it 100% by-the-rules, a player who was hogging the spotlight would be just as problematic.

I suggest that you ask him to find a way to retire the character. Perhaps the character gets trapped in a stasis bubble or a time-slowed plane or something, and can be let out just in time to join the next game that runs - the one you're running after this one's over and in the same continuity. DMPCs just don't work out for most DMs. We are human, and our human desire to achieve what we set out for overrides our good sense when it comes to letting the dice fall where they may (and when it comes to ruling in favor of game balance rather than our PC's benefit). For this reason, I - a notorious powergamer - desperately attempt to avoid having pet NPCs that travel with the party. At most, they show up when the party crosses paths with them. They're quest-givers or rivals, occasional allies, but I strive hard to keep them from becoming de facto party members. When that happens, I can no longer guarantee my objectivity in fairness to the NPC and the PCs.

It doesn't make me a bad DM; it just means I recognize the pitfall and avoid it. I actually (if you'll forgive the arrogance) think it makes me a good DM.

The sad truth is, even if I knew completely well that I could play a DMPC and have him take nothing away from the other PCs, the fact that he's a DMPC would risk making people THINK there's an issue. And it's just not worth it.

Talk your friend into saving the character for when he can play him as an actual PC. Everybody will be happier.

[Scumbaggery]

It's not like he is actively trying to be a tool or anything like that. He just wants to be a part of the party, but is taking the entirely wrong approach.

He has also agreed that the other characters should re-gear according to level 9 WBL to catch up to the CR we should be at. So far things are looking better. I'll have to see what happens during the actually session tomorrow night.

[Scumbaggery]

Good things happened last night.

The Artificer has been retired. He will still be approachable, but will instead make items when we have the gold necessary. Win.

The Warforged cohort will be joining us instead and 2 levels lower than normal. I actually don't mind this because he would actually be a perfect fit for the group considering nobody has any hitpoints to write home about.

Gold and loot has started flowing as normal, and encounters are now appropriate for our group.

All in all, things are looking pretty awesome. I suppose talking to him again was the best option after all :smallbiggrin:

[Keneth]

Good to hear you've resolved the issue. I also like the new avatar. :smallbiggrin:

[Scumbaggery]

Good to hear you've resolved the issue. I also like the new avatar. :smallbiggrin:

Me too. I understand the guy wanted to help, he just needed to go about it a better way. And thanks, I get OCD about avatars and I'm currently trying to make an OOTS-style one. Mr. Potassium will do for now :smalltongue:

[The Oni]

A triumph for reason!

[BRC]

All in all, things are looking pretty awesome. I suppose talking to him again was the best option after all :smallbiggrin:

It usually is. 99% of bad DMs are TRYING to be good DMs, they just don't realize what they're doing. They are having fun with their supermonks and mechanized crab armies, and he's crafting really cool scenes. Normally when really cool stuff is happening its because the PCs are doing really cool stuff and everybody is having fun. This is why people on this forum are usually so hostile to the idea of a DMPC, when a DM, even a well intentioned one, starts thinking of themselves as a player, they tend to fall in an awkward place between Player and DM. They have the Player's desire to use the resources at their disposal to make a cool character, but the DM's power.

[killem2]

This is why people on this forum are usually so hostile to the idea of a DMPC, when a DM, even a well intentioned one, starts thinking of themselves as a player, they tend to fall in an awkward place between Player and DM. They have the Player's desire to use the resources at their disposal to make a cool character, but the DM's power.

Except when the person tells you they can handle it and they are an adult and its under control, the forum should then, put out the torches and put down the pitch forks. Instead, they would rather judge.

[johnbragg]

Except when the person tells you they can handle it and they are an adult and its under control, the forum should then, put out the torches and put down the pitch forks. Instead, they would rather judge.

Except that the DM retired the main DMPC and powered down the other one.

Which is sort of admitting that he couldn't handle it and it wasn't under control. Fortunately the DM IS an adult, or acted like one.

So *now* we put down the torches and pitchforks.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by johnbragg
So *now* we put down the torches and pitchforks.

...but only to rest your hands a bit, and then it's off to the other DMPC thread.

:smallsigh:

[nedz]

Burn the DMPC

Part of the problem is that the DM in question thought that there wasn't a problem, when there was. And then someone else comes along and says "DMPCs aren't a problem in my game either".