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Soniku
2007-01-02, 11:33 AM
So, has anyone else managed to get their hands on this lovely array of stratergy, diplomacy and amazing combat animations? I managed to get it for christmas and I have been practicly glued to it since, it's definately my favorate total war to date.

Opinions? Rants? I want to hear it!


And does anyone know a way to make it alert you when a character gains a new trait? My one little annoyance :smalltongue:

Maclav
2007-01-02, 12:09 PM
Read the level up messages. :)

Om
2007-01-02, 12:56 PM
Well my computer doesn't run it so that's that. Even if it did though I'm not sure as to whether I'd get it. From what I've heard the AI is a joke, even worse than Rome's, and frankly I think the TW series lost their way after the original Medieval. No where is this more evident than the "Hollywood history" that has characterised the last two games in the series.

Shikton
2007-01-02, 12:58 PM
Not tried that one, but I did play Rome: Total War a while back. Same thing, isn't it? Kept me glued to the screen for hours on end. Fantastic battles!

Soniku
2007-01-02, 05:52 PM
Read the level up messages. :)

I've found that it tells you when they gain new people/items which add points and bonuses like traits, but I never see actual trait ones unless it's a generic spy/diplomat/whatever solo skill trait.


From what I've heard the AI is a joke, even worse than Rome's, and frankly I think the TW series lost their way after the original Medieval. No where is this more evident than the "Hollywood history" that has characterised the last two games in the series.

Can't say I know too much about medieval history, classes tend to focus on modern history, but the AI definately isn't a joke (at least for the avarage gamer <.<;;). The AI in rome did always seem a little... quirky to say the least but appart from the odd problems that plague all games (getting all your troops through a gate? chaos!) I haven't experienced anything at all major.


Not tried that one, but I did play Rome: Total War a while back. Same thing, isn't it? Kept me glued to the screen for hours on end. Fantastic battles!

They've kept the same stratergy map style and interface, but added a lot of medieval era type things which are great. Marrage alliances or even marrying a powerful general away from his own faction into yours are options, as is getting a priest to become cardinal then pope *cough-bribes-cough*, crusade and jihad and... the return of event movies!

Shikton
2007-01-02, 06:01 PM
Are the graphics a lot more demanding than in Rome? If not, I'll have to give it a try. ^^

Muz
2007-01-02, 07:49 PM
I'm having fun with it so far. Unit cohesion is a problem now and again, but then with the TW games, sometimes it's hard to tell if units aren't quite following orders because of a bug, or because they're just low-morale troops who just plain don't much WANT to fight.

Plus it was neat capturing Caernarvon Castle in Wales for me and being able to say "Hey, I've BEEN there!" (Okay, so that's a big deal for me, living in the USA.) The parking lot, however, was NOT included on the battle map, so I'm not sure just how "accurate" it is. ;)

Duraska
2007-01-03, 04:23 PM
I love the Total War games, especially Medieval 1, and Rome, but I gotta say I was very disappointed with M2TW.

First of all, the graphics are great! Absolutely beautiful. No arguments there.

However the way the game "plays" is just screwy. The AI doesn't follow any sort of logic, leaving some lands completely unprotected and marching full stacks into allied lands, only to have them stand there for 20 years.

In battles, a group of 30 peasant archers can easily slaughter a group of 100 dismounted armored knights. Two-handed weapon-based units are broken as they never attack (check out the official forums for user-posted videos showing this).

Battle-replay is broken. It's actually kind of funny. You can win a battle, save the replay then watch the replay and actually see your guys LOSE! The replays only "save" your opening moves, and then the rest of the battle is automatically generated by the computer.

Inquisitors will run rampant through your lands and for no apparent reason, kill your royal family. What medieval kingdom would allow their king to be burned at the stake by a random inquisitor? I always make sure my reputation with the Pope is maxed, and he still send those thugs to my lands.

Royal succession is broken. Heirs are chosen completely at random. It's not uncommon for a King to appoint his son-in-law as heir to the throne instead of his rightful son. Oddly enough, it's not uncommon for your prince to adopt a child who is two-times older than he is. I have screenshots of a 20 year old prince adopting a 50-some year old "child."

Overall, I really wanted to like this game, but it's just "broken," or unfinished, or whatever. Maybe after a few months and a few patches it will be a classic, but right now it's collecting dust on the shelf. :(

Om
2007-01-03, 04:59 PM
The parking lot, however, was NOT included on the battle map, so I'm not sure just how "accurate" it is. ;)
They're saving that one for the expansion pack :smallwink:

The Dirge
2007-01-04, 02:37 AM
The pope doesnt send inquisitoss does he? i thought rival factions did. And i think there is a patch that fixes some of the AI issues. And if you want yout enemy to be smart, play on the hardest difficulty

Soniku
2007-01-04, 11:24 AM
Duraska, I'm not sure whats going on with your game but I haven't seen any of those problems yet. I don't use 2H units that much so they might not be working, I'll go check sometime.

The rest of your problems have never turned up in my games, so mabey I'm just super lucky :smallbiggrin:

Duraska
2007-01-04, 02:39 PM
The pope doesnt send inquisitoss does he? i thought rival factions did. And i think there is a patch that fixes some of the AI issues. And if you want yout enemy to be smart, play on the hardest difficulty

In Medieval Total War (the first one), factions could train and send Inquisitors to rival lands. In Medieval 2 Total War the Inquisitors are all A.I. controlled, and they stem from the Pope.

The developers even admitted they were a problem, hence why they "toned down the Inquisitors" in the first patch. However, they still run crazy all over my lands, even though my people are more than 95% Catholic.


Soniku, I am very glad to hear you're not experiencing the same problems I have, but if you check out the game's official forums, you'll see that I am, sadly, not alone. There's people there who are experiencing a lot worse issues than I have. The developers openly admit that the game wasn't finished when they shipped it -- they planned on releasing what they called a "zero-day patch" which was supposed to come out on the day the game shipped in the States. However, due to internal problems, they delayed the first patch for over a month. Unfortunately, while a few of the major bugs were helped, there is still some signifigant problems with the game. They claim that they're going to release another patch in "early 2007."

You can test the two-handed unit problem via custom battles. The problem is that they changed the way the fighting works in the game. In Rome, and all other games before it, combat was calculated by the computer on a "real-time" basis, and then the on-screen units either got into a fighting animation or died based on the computer's "dice-rolls." In M2TW, the calculations to see if a unit hit another unit (and how much damage was done), are rolled only when a units attack animation has succesfully played. This gives the game its exciting and flashy combat animations. However, two-handed units have extremely slow animations, so they never get an attack out. They start to attack, and then the animation switches over to them blocking against their enemy's attack. Hence, they get slaughtered. The developers said they were looking into this, but frankly, I'm pretty annoyed that they would let a game ship with these bugs. I mean, they're quite obvious. Did any of the beta testers actually play a full campaign?

Duraska
2007-01-04, 02:47 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but here's the current list of bugs that the Total War community has assembled on the official forums for the second patch.

Obviously, some are more major than others. But a lot of the issues stem from bonuses being miscalculated or units not working properly:


Priority Level I:

1. Improve Diplomacy - backstabbing, alliances, map-trading, gifts, reputation: it could all be improved and tweaked (not to mention making the AI smarter)
2. Fix two-handed weapons - they do not fight against cavalry when in melee
3. Fix Passive AI - the AI still does not react well to missile fire or some flanking maneuvers; the AI will also give orders to its unit but the units will remain still, this appears in the form of motionless units that repeatedly shout orders at themselves.
4. Fix siege lag - massive lag occurs if men are trying to get down off the castle wall while a soldier\unit is blocking the wall exit down on the ground.
5. Improve siege-assault AI - suggestions would be teaching the AI to build more ladders and less siege towers, teaching the AI not to ‘zerg’ the gate once it is opened, teaching the AI to keep it’s general from rushing through the gate, teaching the AI that it does not have to use all of its siege ammo before assaulting a settlement, teaching AI not to ignore the gates when they are opened by a spy
6. Fix AI not reacting to flanking maneuvers when the player sallies from his settlement - if the player uses the side gate the enemy does not react, and the player can attack each individual unit in the enemy army, melee or ranged, and the AI will do nothing with the rest of the army.
7. Fix units downhill getting a melee advantage against units uphill - it should be the other way around; units on the higher ground should get the advantage, this occurs because the weapons of the units uphill swing above the units downhill and do not make contact with them.
8. Fix AI not reacting correctly to flanking cavalry
9. Fix some players no longer being able to join a multiplayer game of 2v2 or above
10. Fix AI armies repeatedly conducting the same moves on the campaign map - example: Sicilian army disembarks from boat next to a city, waits two turns, and then re-boards the boat; the next turn the army disembarks again and repeats the previous movements
11. Fix AI camping armies on the player’s territory for long periods of time with no intention of war
12. Teach AI to better defend settlements
13. Teach AI to make more balanced armies - not armies full of archers, crossbows, and siege equipment only, for example
14. Fix the crash that occurs when right-clicking on your reinforcement captain if you have reinforcements available for a battle
15. Add better pathfinding for Cavalry when chasing down routers - they like to aimlessly wander and scatter across the map currently
16. Fix bug in which units will engage in combat with ‘invisible’ enemies - the unit will be shown as fighting despite there not being any enemy in the area; this causes fatigue for the unit
17. Fix melee units not being able to attack and damage siege weapons
18. Fix certain buildings (such as guilds) not giving their bonus when retraining units - example, Woodsmen Guild does not correctly apply +1 experience to archers when the archers are retrained; also affects Tourney Field
19. Fix the gun-powder units that always move backwards when firing
20. Add better unit cohesion - sometimes the first rank of soldiers charge while the other ranks hang back and walk to the melee
21. Fix the game sometimes placing player’s or AI’s army in inaccessible places - on top of a mountain for example; this occurs in battle-map
22. Fix units like archers and artillery not responding to commands - these will sometimes units continually shoot at one target even though ordered to fire at another target
23. Fix placing of units in cities and castles - it’s much too difficult
24. Fix cannons sometimes freezing in place for no reason at all
25. Balance Forlorn Hope - they are useless compared to other troops for the same price
26. Reduce inquisitor power against Faction Leaders and Heirs
27. Give the player more intuitive ways of sorting his agents - maybe separate windows for merchants, spies, princesses, diplomats, etc.
28. Fix the bug where the player’s whole army is killed when the Timer reaches zero.
29. Fix bug where the ‘announcer’ will proclaim that the player’s spy has opened the gates when in fact the gates have not been opened.


Priority Level II:

1. Consider re-balancing multiplayer - some units are cost less or more than other units of equal strength
2. On Hard and Very Hard, teach the AI to stack more forces on the campaign map before attacking
3. In a siege battle, the besieged units should not be destroyed on the campaign map if they remain outside of the castle or have retreated when the siege battle ends.
4. Fix units on top of a wall not being able to move if the wall is under attack by siege artillery.
5. Fix cavalry units not being able to attack the rear of infantry units attempting to ascend siege engines
6. Fix daughters of generals who have died not becoming princesses - example: the player marries his princess to a general, the couple has a daughter but the general shortly dies. When the daughter comes of age she will not be shown as a princess on the campaign map
7. Fix musketeer units being able to shoot through each other
8. Make siege weapons more 'flammable' - currently, it takes much to many arrows to set a Catapult or Trebuchet on fire.
9. Tweak rate at which governors accumulate bad traits - currently, governors staying in cities\castles ruins the general with bad traits
10. Make rebels more aggressive - attack cities and armies
11. Add Heir selection
12. Boost Princesses - the triggers which give charm are broken; princesses rarely have much charm
13. Add agent movement-points meter from Barbarian Invasion
14. Fix the 2D sprites - they’re too bright or dark depending on the player’s angle
15. Fix ambushing army bug - if the player attacks an enemy army that is lying in ambush, but the player can clearly see the ambushing army, the battle will still will play out as if the enemy army had in fact ambushed the player’s army. If the player can see the ambushing army on the campaign map, it should play out as a normal field battle.
16. Make gunpowder units more effective on walls - currently the wall itself blocks the line-of-sight too much; this applies for archers also
17. Fix Aztec/Mesoamerican large and huge city models displaying the Middle Eastern building set
18. Add Multiplayer AI
19. Crossbow troops who are reloading will not interrupt reloading to save themselves.
20. Fix Horse Archers not always skirmishing correctly - they will stand still while enemies walk into them
21. Fix AI merchants from wondering about the map and taking over enemy merchants without taking over the resource.
22. Fix Byzantines/Egyptians/Moors not building their special public health buildings (Public bath/aqueduct/bismaristan)
23.Fix armies lifting a siege if they withdraw from battle on the battlemap - if an army loses all of its siege equipment during the battle without opening a way into the settlement and then is forced to withdraw, it seems that the army should still maintain the siege.
24. Give the player ability to assassinate his own heirs/generals/agents/princesses/priests with assassins
25. Fix cannons/artillery/rocket artillery not always face their targets when firing - rocket artillery, for example, will shoot rockets from its side if the target has moved
26. Fix gunpowder units acting differently when in 'skirmish' mode - when skirmish is on the soldiers crouch to load instead of changing places (maybe a feature?)
27. Fix Pikemen not ‘showing’ their spears lowered when attacking - they do indeed attack with their spears lowered, but the graphics show the spear raised.
28. Add ability to ‘drag-and-move’ the Start Battle and Paused overlays in the Battle Map - currently, those two overlays obscure the important information when viewing Unit Info
29. Add the ability to "lock" your gates in the battlemap
30. Fix overly aggressive Papal States - after v1.1 they now conquer territories (maybe this is intended?)


Priority Level III.

1. Add a road linking Bucharest to its port
2. Add roads leading to the land crossing points - examples: the cross point linking Sicily to Italy, Iberia to Africa, or Ireland to England
3. Fix ballista/cannon towers on the battlemap - Ballista towers on cities fire cannonballs (even before gunpowder is invented). Ballista/cannon towers on castles do not show up.
4. Fix bug that sometimes occurs when the player attempts to pay a ransom - the ransom note will appear correctly, but when the player agrees to pay the ransom the ransom message will pop-up again demanding the player agree to the ransom again. This continues until the player runs out of money.
5. Take a look at assassinations and ‘heresy burnings’ - sometimes an agent will have 95% chance but the agent will fail. (maybe a feature?)
6. Add weather control to non-settlement maps in custom games
7. Add ability to ‘fire’ assassins, spies, and diplomats
8. On the campaign map during the AI turns, remove agent animations - it gets tiresome watching diplomats go through their ‘offer map’ animation every time they want to open diplomacy
9. Consider giving all mace and two-handed swordsmen units "effective against armor" trait
10. Consider reducing siege engine morale
11. Add a pop-up for the death of any Faction Leader
12. Sync the camel handgunner firing animation with the smoke and fire effect - currently, the smoke and fire flare forward but the gunner shoots to his side; this occurs with all pistol cavalry units
13. Fix all son's of the King not being labeled prince - only the Heir is labeled Prince
14. Fix Cavalry Archers having "Currently Shooting" even though they are out of ammo.
15. Add ability to sort cities\castles by current construction or training.
16. Fix Danes and Russians using the same sound files - the Danes are speaking Russian
17. Fix Trebizond archers shouting “stopping artillery!” instead of “stopping fire!” when the player deselects the fire-at-will button.
18. Fix Militia Cavalry, Venetian Archers, and Venetian Heavy Infantry not showing the proper armor when upgraded
19. Add a notification when a rebel army appears in your lands
20. Add a notification when a priest turns heretic
21. Add a notification when a princess 'comes of age'
22. Fix the chocolate resource on the southernmost landmass of the New World being 'inaccessible' - the resource location is inaccessible according to a screen prompt


Again, some of these are just little nit-picks, but there are some pretty big issues in those requests. These requests were compiled by the fanbase and are currently stickied on the official forums. The developers are (supposedly) looking at them for inspiration (which is good).

I really hope they can iron out some of these problems, cause I really do like this game. I'm just very dissappointed by it's current problems. If they ironed out stuff like two-handed units, the way the AI often erratically behaves in combat, the way the Pope tends to conquer his neighbors as a warlord, and a few other little things I would be in love! :)

Ethdred
2007-01-05, 07:05 AM
But hey, the graphics are great!

This really annoys me about games like this - they put so much effort into the graphics and new features and forget about the gameplay. In M2TW they apparently give each of your soldiers a different face - like wow! but who's going to look at that after the first battle? Imagine the system resources all that is using up, to no benefit for the player, and all the development time that must have taken - time that could have been better spent on improving the AI and bug-testing. And, of course, all these graphics require much more powerful machines.

Anyway, I long ago decided that life is too short to buy this game - I'm still addicted to Rome and Medieval 1. Heck, I still fire up Shogun from time to time. This is a fantastic franchise, but I think I'm going to get off the bus now.

Muz
2007-01-05, 12:12 PM
Well, despite it's issues, I'm still having fun with it. :)
(Plus I've got this new cup-and-ball game! You never know which way this crazy ball's gonna go!)

Dragor
2007-01-05, 03:09 PM
I'll admit, there are practically millions of little AI niggles in this game, but I'm still enjoying it overall. I've never been so satisfied in an RTS to have a Spanish Empire spanning from North Africa to Scotland, and as far west as Poland. This may not sound as an amzing feat, but for me it was an excellent triumph. The most professional gunpowder armies in the game I had mustered:

5 Units of Musketeers
5 Units of Gendarmes
5 Units of Tercio Pikemen
3 Units of Basilisk Cannon
1 General.

A very effective fighting force. Cities crumbled before my might, and soon the French, English and the small (now only four cities!) country of the Holy Roman Empire fell.
It was brilliant fun, I can tell you. I can list the most annoying AI problems though:

-Denmark: "Hey, let's have a ceasefire and trade rights." "All right." Next turn- whose attacking? The Danes! Keep your promises! Being a backstabber is one thing, but just attacking and ceasefiring randomly is not a good sign.

-Insane Inquisitors: "Hack! Hack! Kill the monarch and all his family!"

-Mongols: not as rampaging as you'd like; they only go as far as the edge of Egypt and Turkey, and then settle down and wait for the Timurids (a much more powerful force who do EXACTLY THE SAME THING)

-Cavalry units withdrawing their lances JUST before a charge. You have lances, they're good for charging with, don't just put them away a second before your charge!

I may sound like a raving looney- but I do like this game. Honest.