Which is more 'Powerful'

[TabletopGamer]

Which of the following is strictly better or more powerful then the other.

Spell to Power Erudite

Or

A Wizard

Both are average Optimization

And then if their highly specked for Optimization

Out of those two situations which one is better, more powerful, etc

[Fouredged Sword]

STP erudite is more powerful, but only marginally. It's all rocket tag, but infinite PP are easier to get than infinite spell slots.

[TabletopGamer]

I was gonna say this, if run by RAI the Erudite gets 11 powers per day.

But if your running it by RAW I would say the Erudite is much more powerful with its 99 powers per day.

[JaronK]

Neither is strictly better than the other. At that point, it comes down entirely to spells/powers known, what's allowed, what you do with them, etc. Both are perfectly capable of hitting the allowed optimization and power level limits of virtually any campaign.

JaronK

[TabletopGamer]

But which can do it faster, or better then the other. They cannot be perfectly even is my point.

[tyckspoon]

But which can do it faster, or better then the other. They cannot be perfectly even is my point.

At sufficient optimization they're pretty much indistinguishable. The only practical limit either of them has is whether or not the player is aware of the right spell or power to solve their situation.

At lower optimization points, I'd say the Erudite has an edge; the Spell to Power mechanism means he has better access to Wizard tricks than the Wizard has to Psionic specialties, and things like Power Point recharges and using Synchronicity/Schism to casually ignore any concept of 'action economy' are more readily performed by psionics than equivalent tricks are for Wizards.

[Flickerdart]

Erudite is a level behind in spells (unless you follow the absurd interpretation that "spells" count as a discipline), so he will never have access to the wizard's best tricks at medium op.

[JaronK]

But which can do it faster, or better then the other. They cannot be perfectly even is my point.

They can, because the limit is "what your DM will allow." Consider this: both are capable of generating infinite wishes by level 11. Will any DM allow this? No, of course not. So both are limited to whatever the maximum is.

It's like comparing two race cars capable of going well over a thousand miles an hour when the race rules limit their speed to 150 miles per hour. Neither is faster, because the required speed limiter sets them to exactly 150mph.

JaronK

[TabletopGamer]

I figured the Erudite would have been a little better due to having a wider array of lists. Also the spontaneous casting, and repeated casting of useful powers without needing to have set up multiple copies in each of the slots.

[Nettlekid]

I'd say Erudite is stronger, for two reasons. One is the PP recharge, which as people have said, makes a big difference in the long run. They can nova and then fuel back up. But secondly, one of the biggest advantages, is action economy. With Schism, Hustle/Psychic Meditation/Linked Twinned Synchronicity shuffle stuff, they can manage to get many more actions than a Wizard on equal footing. Think about how good people say Celerity is, or how frequently people insist on Shapechanging into a Chronotyryn for the dual actions. StP Erudite can do those tricks and more. So that's what gives it a big power boost. (And if you assume that Body Outside Body retains manifesting, then the whole thing goes out the window.)

[TabletopGamer]

Has anyone ever done an Erudite Handbook? I know they did a Psion Handbook but I don't know if that would fit as well with how to run a StP Erudite.

[Nettlekid]

Has anyone ever done an Erudite Handbook? I know they did a Psion Handbook but I don't know if that would fit as well with how to run a StP Erudite.

To my knowledge, no, they haven't. Most people just say "Use the Psion handbook for feats and look through the Wizard handbook for good spells and stuff" but that really doesn't do it justice. The Psion handbook assumes a very small number of powers known, so it focuses on greater utility versus utmost effectiveness at the cost of versatility, which you as an Erudite can afford because you can learn tons of stuff. As for the Wizard spells, the fact that you no longer need to use material components means that many impractical but otherwise useful Wizard spells are perfect for you (like Forcecage or Ruby Ray of Reversal), and they don't really take that into account. Plus the Erudite just has its own tricks, like what I mentioned before about Body Outside Body.

By the way, don't worry about UPD. Just use Soul Crystal (from Magic of Incarnum) to bypass it, as the only power you manifest is Soul Crystal, not any other. Use an augmented Temporal Acceleration, and then in that spare time use the Mental Pinnacle spell (as a power) to quickly refuel PP. Done and done. You can go forever. I recommend being an Elan so you don't have to eat, age, and you don't really have to sleep because you don't need to recover PP. Also, if you have the Swift actions for it, manifest Temporal Reiteration every round, and all your buffs will last forever.

[TabletopGamer]

Hmm interesting ideas but its not a full replenish, but I suppose its broken that you could cast it again and again since it would be your UPD

[Psyren]

Has anyone ever done an Erudite Handbook? I know they did a Psion Handbook but I don't know if that would fit as well with how to run a StP Erudite.

Open a psion handbook in one window and a wizard handbook in the other. There, StP Erudite handbook.

[TabletopGamer]

And if this were a Gestalt of Psion and Wizard I would agree with you.

But there are some complexities to the Erudite. Knowing virtually unlimited powers means the spells the Psion Handbooks discard out of hand because they dont want you to waste your powers known on powers that wont be Optimal.

Wizards Handbooks also discard spells that they feel are useless due to cost or something.

[Psyren]

Those situationally useful powers are still in the psion handbooks, they're simply relegated to items instead (power stones, psicrowns and dorjes.) Usually the rating of the power will mention it.

I mean, you're certainly welcome to make an Erudite handbook but I think there's more than enough info in the psion and wizard ones out there that such wouldn't be necessary.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm interesting ideas but its not a full replenish, but I suppose its broken that you could cast it again and again since it would be your UPD

You have all the time in the world. Yes, it is a full replenish. Mental Pinnacle will cost you 13 PP to manifest (11 for the power, +2 for the material component.) It gives you 3*ML PP. At the earliest you can use it, your ML is 13 (since you had to learn it when you could manifest powers of one level higher), so in a single manifestation, you gain a net profit of 26 PP.

So let's say you notice yourself getting a little low on PP. Manifest Soul Crystal Linked to Synchronicity, expending your Psionic Focus to do so. That's only one of your UPD, since Synchronicity is being Linked, and you never actually manifest it. The whole thing costs you 14 PP. If you have Overchannel, you can do this at level 13. Into the Soul Crystal you store Mental Pinnacle, and 26 PP. (Actually, you could do all the setup for this at the beginning of the day, but let's say that for some reason you were surprised or ran out mid-battle.) Use the Standard action granted by Synchronicity to activate another Soul Crystal, this one containing Temporal Acceleration. Augment it, spending 15 PP from the crystal (at the beginning of the day you made it with 30 PP, so it's good for two uses), to give you two rounds of stopped time. Use your move action to recover Psionic Focus, and then your Standard to activate your freshly made Soul Crystal to gain 39 PP. You've just paid off both the Soul Crystal's creation. Use it again to gain another 39 PP, which more that pays off the whole 15 PP you used for this Temporal Acceleration, and the 1 extra PP from Synchronicity, and gives you a net gain of 13 PP. This isn't even assuming you're using your Psicrystal's Psionic Focus and your own to use Quickened Twinned Synchronicity within the Temporal Acceleration to give you more time, which you totally would. Then the Temporal Acceleration ends, and you've no reason not to use a Synchronicity Standard Action to activate your Soul Crystal again, restart the Temporal Acceleration, and keep refueling. All in the blink of an eye before your opponent can react. Yes, it does in fact refuel you.

[Silva Stormrage]

Ya I am also backing the STP. Mental pinnacle alone means it has infinite pp's with a core spell. Syncroncicity + other psionic tricks will put him ahead even if you want to argue that magic doesn't count as its own discipline (I believe Magic Mantle also lets you learn spells of the same level).

But really both classes are absurdly strong.

[Psyren]

For the record I'm with JaronK, comparing their power is really meaningless because at the levels where one class may start to pull ahead the game has long since broken down and you may as well flick rubber bands at each other or play calvinball instead.

There is a supposed "T0" which includes StP Erudite, as well as two other poorly-edited noteworthies (Arcane Swordsage, Psionic Artificer) but the designation does not mean they are above Wizard et al., it simply means they need even more DM attention to be usable without shattering the campaign.

[Snowbluff]

STP for having a slightly wider selection of spells, but really either one is capable of capsizing a game.

[Spuddles]

I ran a level 20 one shot. The *regular* erudite knew every power in the XPH and that level of versatility, to have access to every power, instantly, was pretty insane.

From a practical standpoint, I would give the spontaneity of an stp erudite head and shoulders above a wizard.

If you get into metamgic abuse, I think wizards with persistent spell win. Having all day buffs up is so, so sweet.

I suppose unlimited pp via mental pinnacle/dweomer of transference is effectively persistent spell. Combine with linked synchronicities to take unlimited actions per turn. Not bad.

You also get the save game trick.

[Saidoro]

But which can do it faster, or better then the other. They cannot be perfectly even is my point.

They are not perfectly even, but their inequalities are not resolvable into a simple better than/worse than pairing. This is true when making almost any meaningful comparison between two things.