Daggerspell Mage PRC Build Help

[Savith9]

I need help with a daggerspell mage. The class seems flavorful and sounds like they would be fun to do. In the current setting 90% of all magic is divine with the remaining 10% being arcane/psionics and outlawed however from what I understand a majority of the group is already wanted for illegal magic use (including some that cant even use magic due to association). The DM has been clear that we can make any type of character we want but drawbacks could be severe based on the class. For example a wizard would be hunted due to their use of arcane magic.

Back to the daggerspell mage, what would be a solid build for one? I was thinking going a few levels into warlock since they dont have a set number of spells in order to use the daggerspell mages class specific abilities every round but im not sure if that would work. My other though was spellthief or 5 levles sorc and 1 level rouge to meet the prerequisites. If you have a better class that uses melee and magic or has that type of feel to it please post it. (yes i know the swordsage is probably better)

[Pluto!]

Daggerspell Mage is one of those classes that just doesn't quite get where it's supposed to go - it pushes characters into melee with dagger attacks without giving the chassis or class features to support melee combat and while losing the brute force of full casting, which a character might otherwise use to pretend to be a melee character. I'm not saying this to steer you away from the class; I just want to give a bit of forewarning that DsM's going to take some elbow grease compared to other gish builds, and isn't going to be as powerful as its alternatives even after that work.

Also, Daggerspell Mage's abilities don't work with SLAs, so Warlock is probably not a good idea unless your DM is letting you fudge the DsM's rules (which would actually be totally reasonable as long as you're both on board with it, and have clearly discussed how the DsM's abilities interact with SLAs ahead of time).

The biggest problems DsM has are that it doesn't provide much in the way of resiliency or help in melee combat, while also requiring two-weapon fighting - the single weakest combat style in 3e - and usually quite a few small HD. To make things worse, DsM's class features don't really do much until the capstone. Together, these mean that the character's spells, feats and outside levels need to pull a lot of weight, especially in terms of melee abilities and survival.

This makes me think that to build an effective DsM, we might be looking at something like:
SA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) Fighter 1/Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Conjurer Wizard 4/Daggerspell Mage 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Daggerspell Mage 7.
Feats: Level 1: Craven (Champions of Ruin), Weapon Finesse; Level 2: Two-Weapon Fighting; Level 3: Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane); Level 6: Combat Casting; Level 9: Minor Shapeshift (Complete Mage); Level 12: Extend Spell (Complete Warrior); Level 15: Arcane Strike; Level 18: Persist Spell

If you can use flaws, definitely bump Combat Casting down to a level 1 feat to sneak Knowledge Devotion (Complete Mage) into the level 6 slot. It will dramatically increase your odds of hitting and maybe even make dagger damage meaningful in combat. Also, you would probably want to push Extend Spell to level 1 to free up a slot for Quicken Spell to keep your spellcasting from interfering with your fighting.

Explanations:
Sneak Attack Thug Fighter: From most perspectives, this is weaker than either Rogue or Spellthief, but with a daggerspell mage, we're really trying to jockey the character's numbers up: you're going to have a low attack bonus, be taking penalties on attacks, and be in a position where monsters are going to swing at you and occasionally punch through whatever Invisibilities and Mirror Images you use to protect yourself. So this is a blatant HP/BA-grab.

Martial Conjurer Wizard: Martial is because this character needs more feats. Even with it, I can't fit in all the feats that the build needs without dropping its combat numbers or sacrificing the one useful DsM ability. Conjurer because it's a solid discipline (the teleportation subschool is going to be the most important for a gish, but battlefield control effects and summons are good for setting up sneak attacks) and because it has the cheesiest Sudden Magic ability from Player's Handbook 2, which you're probably going to need to survive, if you're trying to stab things with a low- to mid-level wizard.

Abjurant Champion: Taken as early as possible because the character's basically going to be relying on these 5 levels for its entire career. They crank the character's numbers up, smooth out combat actions and cost basically nothing.

Craven feat: A damage source that scales absurdly well into higher levels, provided your character can punch through sneak attack immunities. Ideally, it would be taken at a level would be more consequential, leaving the low level feat slots for something more immediately rewarding, but competition for higher-level slots is just too fierce.

Combat Casting: Required for Abjurant Champion, which I'm hoping will be good enough to carry the build on its own.

Minor Shapeshift: All about the temporary HP. Maintaining a 2*CL HP buffer is an excellent way to stay alive, even as a squishy melee wizard.

Arcane Strike: Turn prepared spells into damage without using actions outside your normal attack routine. The spells are normally more powerful, but only if you have time to cast them, and only if they are actually applicable to the situation (not always a given with prepared casters).

Persist Spell: Maintain powerful effects like Bladeweave, Wraithstrike, Cloud of Knives, Mirror Image, Critical Strike, Hunter's eye, etc.
Gear:
I don't particularly want to detail this specifically when it's already done for characters with similar gear needs here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=6jpiu9rsrm3hfducus1kjcbl80&topic=8273.0;msg=131154). I'd just keep an eye on the Gloves of the Balanced Hand (cheap Greater Two-Weapon Fighting), Amulet of Tears (cheap HP), Shadow Cloak (cheap Immediate Action defenses) and Circlet of Rapid Casting (cheap impromptu Quicken Spells) in particular.


... Actually, looking back on that build after spending the time to write it up, I'm skeptical as to its viability in melee, and I suspect that it would spend most gametime playing a lot closer to a gimped wizard who occasionally takes part in combat cleanup instead of playing like the semi-coherent melee character that most gish builds usually start feeling like around level 6. A staple goodstuff build like Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 5, Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8 or Crusader 1/Wizard 4/Urban Savant 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5 builds would probably just be better. :smallsigh: Still, if you want to go DsM specifically, this approach might be worth a shot.

[HylianKnight]

It pushes characters into melee with dagger attacks without giving the chassis or class features to support melee combat and while losing the brute force of full casting, which a character might otherwise use to pretend to be a melee character.

... Actually, looking back on that build after spending the time to write it up, I'm skeptical as to its viability in melee...

Well isn't the class essentially just a Rogue/Wizard option? You take a skillful class and style of playing, and compliment it with the power of being a Wizard at the cost of 2 casting levels.

I wouldn't expect this class to be a GISH one, but as a way to fill the Rogue's role in the party, it seems like it could work just fine.

[Fouredged Sword]

I personally like to do a Spellthief 1 / duskblade 4 / Daggerspell mage 10/ unseen seer.

You become a in close melee striker who focuses on putting 2 half slashing uncapped shocking grasps into a dagger strike sneak attack. You use the swift action casting you get at 15th level to spam hunter's eye (you get that from unseen seer)

It is definitely not high op, but it should serve as a caster with a heavy martial rogue feel. Consider Grey elf and initiate of faerie miseries for int to HP to counter the low HD.

[Pluto!]

Well isn't the class essentially just a Rogue/Wizard option? You take a skillful class and style of playing, and compliment it with the power of being a Wizard at the cost of 2 casting levels.

I wouldn't expect this class to be a GISH one, but as a way to fill the Rogue's role in the party, it seems like it could work just fine.
With the class's prerequisites and all the class's features until level 8 aimed toward whacking things in melee, avoiding melee seems again like fighting against the class to make a build work.

You should definitely check out the Unseen Seer that Fouredged Sword mentioned. It's in Complete Mage and both advances the stuff Daggerspell Mage does, if you're looking for an endcap to the build, and it blows the DsM out of the water in terms of the magic skillmonkey role you describe, if you're looking for a replacement.

[Fax Celestis]

Duskblade is an excellent entry for DsM, however...

Duskblade 3/Warmage 3/Spellthief 2/Daggerspell mage 10/Spellthief +2 is pretty cool. Channel spells, use Master Spellthief to get a bunch of your levels back, and other smitey sort of things. You can drop Duskblade and get a Spellsword dip or something else if that's too wacky for you, or you can go Duskblade 4/Spellthief 1 with Master Spellthief to get into Daggerspell Mage. Dusk 2/Sptf 1/Dusk +2/DsM 10/something (Spellwarp Sniper?) 5

[jaybird]

Well isn't the class essentially just a Rogue/Wizard option? You take a skillful class and style of playing, and compliment it with the power of being a Wizard at the cost of 2 casting levels.

I wouldn't expect this class to be a GISH one, but as a way to fill the Rogue's role in the party, it seems like it could work just fine.

That's the thing - it's arguably the worst of the Rogue/Mage hybrids. Unseen Seer and Spellwarp Sniper are significantly better.

EDIT: also, as a psionic alternative, Psionic Rogue? I hear that's good in 3.5.

[Callin]

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is awesome. Add on 3 of Shadow Mind from Comp Adventurer and you are looking at

PR 5/SM 3/Whatever X

And if you are of the mindset that WoTC said in an Online Article (http://dmreference.com/Fantasy/WotC/RotG/All_About_Psionics/All_About_Psionics-Part1.htm) that Powers=Spells you can trade out the 2 powers from SM for certain spells. The one thats Ranger and gives Sneak Attack is really really good. (This is not usually supported by anyone on these boards. I know I tried to use it in an Iron Chef challenge once, but by RAW its there)