PDA

View Full Version : Mass Effect Races (From Races, Races everywhere)



Acatalepsy
2013-10-13, 10:30 PM
...anyway, on the subject of races that I hate from games - okay, it's a video game not a tabletop game, but, uh, I'm ignoring that for now. I'm sure someone has made an ME tabletop game or several by now anyway.

The goddamned Asari. Okay, we have mostly humanoid aliens in the galaxy. Not all of them, but a lot of them - whatever. Chalk it up to convergent evolution (not a great explanation, but in this case, not actually terrible) and the needs of the game. We still get a good deal of variety - in terms of biology, culture, etc. ME's aliens were very well done, by space opera standards.

...then you come to the Asari. A race of green blue/purple skinned space babe bisexuals. Who can breed with every species because [bull**** reasons] and every species thinks is sexy. Who also have natural force powers. Really, Bioware? Just - really?

Also, it's not helpful that your first introduction to the Asari is this:
http://honestcake.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/12benezia.jpg

I rest my case.

...the Vulcans are number two on my hit list, for the entire culture consisting of the writing failing to understand how logic and reason work.

AgentofHellfire
2013-10-13, 10:43 PM
...the Vulcans are number two on my hit list, for the entire culture consisting of the writing failing to understand how logic and reason work.

I haven't played ME, so I'm not going to touch on Asari, but you actually bring up a pretty good point with Vulcans. I rather dislike their interpretation of "logic".

HalfTangible
2013-10-14, 12:15 AM
...anyway, on the subject of races that I hate from games - okay, it's a video game not a tabletop game, but, uh, I'm ignoring that for now. I'm sure someone has made an ME tabletop game or several by now anyway.

The goddamned Asari. Okay, we have mostly humanoid aliens in the galaxy. Not all of them, but a lot of them - whatever. Chalk it up to convergent evolution (not a great explanation, but in this case, not actually terrible) and the needs of the game. We still get a good deal of variety - in terms of biology, culture, etc. ME's aliens were very well done, by space opera standards.

...then you come to the Asari. A race of green blue/purple skinned space babe bisexuals. Who can breed with every species because [bull**** reasons] and every species thinks is sexy. Who also have natural force powers. Really, Bioware? Just - really?

Also, it's not helpful that your first introduction to the Asari is this:
[IMG]http://honestcake.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/12benezia.jpg[IMG]

I rest my case.

...the Vulcans are number two on my hit list, for the entire culture consisting of the writing failing to understand how logic and reason work.

I (and some others) feel they do a lot better with the Asari in subsequent games. But yeah, the first one kinda dropped the ball big time... though personally I better remember the Asari as the race with the ultra-commandos that (as we find out in 3) are apparently good enough they don't need a regular standing army :I

The Oni
2013-10-14, 12:46 AM
I think that's a little unfair to the Asari. First of all, like most of the ME races, they're a deconstruction. Yes, they are blue-skinned space babes, but they're hardly Mary Sues. They're clearly pretty flawed; they're concealing a lot of nasty stuff about their species including the common-ness of Ardat-Yakshi, the Justicar system, and

the fact that their seemingly super-awesomely advanced race had a bunch of hands-on help from the Protheans to get started. They're not "just better" like Space Elves tend to be; somebody slipped them a really good hand of cards.

It's also implied in 2 by a certain scene on Ilium that their attractiveness may be totally or partially an illusion - either because their biotics generate a field that causes other races to fixate on whatever they find most attractive about Asari, or that really strong pheromones cause people to not care so much that they're far more alien than players see them as. A common theory is that while humans see an attractive, tentacly blue human, a Krogan sees a comely, skinnier blue Krogan.

If you're just like "Oh look, anything can have sex with it, ugh fanservice" consider that that is an excellent evolutionary strategy, and makes perfect sense for a single-gendered race that can't otherwise acquire greater genetic diversity, especially when the consequence of that genetic bottleneck is more Ardat-Yakshi.

Also Vulcans supposedly feel much stronger emotions than humans, and their Strawman Logic isn't so much an attempt at real logic as a safeguard against society-degrading Vulcan Rage.

Yora
2013-10-14, 03:56 AM
the fact that their seemingly super-awesomely advanced race had a bunch of hands-on help from the Protheans to get started. They're not "just better" like Space Elves tend to be; somebody slipped them a really good hand of cards.

They also enforced the law that any species that wants to join the Citadel Space has to share any piece of Prothean technology with the other races or face severe punishment for keeping any find secret. While they have the only existing fully functional Prothean super-computer in the galaxy and used its information to bio-engineer their race off the scale for thousands of years. And of course never told anyone about it.
They not only got a really good hand of cards, they also cheated like there's no tomorrow.

I think to make good new races, they need to be distinctively biologically different. And then you use those differences and try to find some ways in which it would make their society and culture different from human ones.
If it's only culture that ignores the biological differences, then you end up with just pointy eared humans and those usually don't get very great responses from the audience.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-14, 06:01 AM
I think that's a little unfair to the Asari. First of all, like most of the ME races, they're a deconstruction. Yes, they are blue-skinned space babes, but they're hardly Mary Sues.

I don't think they're "Mary Sues", and in fact I think that the term "Mary Sue" is a blight upon the internet and all discussion relating to fiction. "Deconstruction" is another term that's mostly been rendered meaningless.

What I do think is that the Asari are a cancer upon the otherwise fairly good worldbuilding of ME, and that it's impossible to take them seriously as an alien species because they're a blatant vehicle for fanservice. Also, I award Bioware zero points for having Asari complain about being stereotyped, or otherwise trying to 'deconstruct' the Green Skinned Space babe...while also milking those stereotypes for all they're worth.


http://www.cinemablend.com/images/sections/21385/mass_effect_2_21385.jpg
Pictured: An elite Asari warrior. Not pictured: High ****ing heels.


It's also implied in 2 by a certain scene on Ilium that their attractiveness may be totally or partially an illusion - either because their biotics generate a field that causes other races to fixate on whatever they find most attractive about Asari, or that really strong pheromones cause people to not care so much that they're far more alien than players see them as. A common theory is that while humans see an attractive, tentacly blue human, a Krogan sees a comely, skinnier blue Krogan.

An easily-missed, overheard side conversation that amounts to several drunk guys speculating. Never mentioned in a Codex entry, nor in any dialog. You never have any option to say to Liara or Samara "hey, don't you have pheromones that are screwing with my head?". Given that the rest of the Codex and dialog conversations goes into detail on everything from the FTL internet to ancient galactic history to how your guns work, that seems like...a bit of an oversight, don't you think?

So, uh, no. I award Bioware zero points. They know how stupid and problematic it is, but they're not willing to come out and have it be anything but a sort of in-joke that everyone already knows about. They get no credit for noticing the problem but doing nothing about it.


If you're just like "Oh look, anything can have sex with it, ugh fanservice" consider that that is an excellent evolutionary strategy, and makes perfect sense for a single-gendered race that can't otherwise acquire greater genetic diversity, especially when the consequence of that genetic bottleneck is more Ardat-Yakshi.

No, it is not an excellent evolutionary strategy. It doesn't make evolutionary sense, or any other kind of sense for that matter; quite the opposite. It's a fractal of biological nonsense - on every level you examine it, it contains the entire assemblage of fail.

I mean, where to even start? How does something like that even evolve? What kind of mechanisms uses a "neural map" to "scramble" the DNA? How does that even make sense in the first place as a thing to do? What possible benefit is there for information on other species nervous systems? Why evolve a system that enables a species to mate with other sentient species, when you don't have any other sentient species on the planet?

Is there any way you can justify this other than "It lets us add literally mindblowing sex with Blue Skinned Space Babes" ?

(No, you cannot invoke the Protheans here. Not only is there no evidence that they engineered this ridiculous biofail contraption, if they did it would be immediately obvious that someone had tampered with the Asari biology. The Prothean involvement was a complete secret - and this was a major plot point - which requires literally every other species to fail at evolutionary biology forever.)


http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/36157273.jpg

It's not even that they wanted to have a species that every species could have sex with - okay, that's sort of dumb, but there are ways it could be done that make a degree of sense. It's not that they have fanservice (I have separate complaints on that front, but those are, well, separate). It's that, when it came to the Asari, creating a universe filled with verisimilitude - that felt like a real place - came second place to the desire to have Green Blue Skinned Space Babes with prominent boobs, and also to not have to think about it that much.


Also Vulcans supposedly feel much stronger emotions than humans, and their Strawman Logic isn't so much an attempt at real logic as a safeguard against society-degrading Vulcan Rage.

It's just a shame that no one bothered to tell the audience that. Or the writers, for that matter.

Kalmageddon
2013-10-14, 06:49 AM
I'm with Acatalepsy on this one, Asari are there just for the fanservice and they detract from the setting with their presence.
Quarian are also guility of this in a minor way, they are fairly alien for the most part, culturally and phyisically, but then you find out that they are basically humans with wierd hands and legs.

Anyway, as you can guess I hate fanservice races as well, I think they are an immature concept designed to lure in teenagers and the like, only that it's even more absurd nowdays when porn is readly available on the Internet for everyone.
We shouldn't need that stuff in our video games/books/movies too.

I also deeply despise any anime-esque race. You know what I'm taling about, a race of catgirls whose only cat-like feature is cat ears and a tail, or a race of demons/angels that just have small, useless wings sprouting out of their back because it's cute or any of that crap.
Luckly not too common in tabletop rpgs.

I also hate D&D (pathfinder, not so much) gnomes. Mostly because I really, really like folklore and the whole concept of feys and gnomes don't do it any justice. I also always found their role reduntant with dwarves.
Aren't dwarves supposed to be the experts when it comes to steam tech, clockwork stuff and other kind of weird inventions? Crafing things is their whole deal after all.
I guess gnomes are more of a "wacky scientist whose invention backfire" kind of thing, which is another reason to despise them because that's a terribly overused trope that needs to die in a fire.

ShadowFighter15
2013-10-14, 07:52 AM
Still working away at my own setting but I'm a touch stumped for my reptilian species, the slaraken. Idea is that they evolved on the same continent as elves and, for a while, were indentured servants of the elves. Not slaves, though, and any slaraken will be quick to point out the difference. Got the idea for that bit of them from a side-quest in Mass Effect 2 on Illium, where Shepard helped out an asari slave broker and a quarian who'd willingly entered into an indentured servitude contract (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Illium:_Indentured_Service). The terms of it all actually sounded reasonable, better than an actual slave but a bit below a normal hired servant, and with various laws to uphold the indentured's rights.

Idea is that the elves initially tried normal slavery but the slaraken rebelled with peaceful methods. They weren't trying to abolish slavery entirely - they were happy to work for the elves and do a lot of the heavy lifting, not even asking for pay, just to have decent living conditions, be treated with respect, be provided decent food or be allowed to grow or catch their own and have a way to obtain their freedom if they desired it. Elves were long-lived enough to look at the long term more seriously than human would and realised trying to force them to continue as slaves was just going to cause problems down the line and that it was easier to concede.

Anyway, I'm trying to work out what these guys would be good at compared to the other species - humans are your normal jack-of-all-trades sort, though I've added that they aren't as affected by radically-different climates as the other species (ie - dwarves are bad with high altitudes since they evolved underground, elves are particularly prone to dehydration and cold temperatures due to their tropical homeland, etc), elves are the masters of magic and research as well as possessing one of the finest navies in the world, dwarves haven't changed much from the fantasy norm save that they aren't notable drinkers and the whole pathological stubbornness I mentioned a few pages back, felinids are either expert wilderness fighters/survivalists or financial wizards*, depending on whether they were raised by a wilderness tribe or one in a city, but I'm stuck on what the slaraken should be good at. All I have so far is that the elven navy uses a lot of slaraken soldiers as amphibious assault teams or aquatic saboteurs as they're able to breathe underwater. Toyed with the idea of making them legal experts as well, a holdover from when they all heavily studied their rights as indentured servants so that they would know just when they could take their employer to court over rights violations.


*Idea there was that felinid like nice things (think your pampered house cat with sentience) and jobs that involve working with a lot of money tend to pay well enough that they can afford those nice things while still leaving them enough free time to enjoy them. So Urbankin felinid actively desire such jobs.


I also hate D&D (pathfinder, not so much) gnomes. Mostly because I really, really like folklore and the whole concept of feys and gnomes don't do it any justice. I also always found their role reduntant with dwarves.

I kind of agree with you about gnomes - they never really seemed to fit in any setting (Eberron had a nice use for their inquisitive natures, though, but didn't really tie into the folklore much), but Golarion put a good spin on them.

For those unfamiliar - Golarion's gnomes are exiles from the First World; the world of the fae and a prototype for the Material Plane. While they've adapted so that they're considered native inhabitants of the Material Plane, they still have some very fae-esque traits. Like how they're effectively immortal as long as they continue to experience new things - a gnome who goes too long without new experiences undergoes the Bleaching (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Bleaching), where all the colour slowly drains from their body and they become slow and listless before finally falling dead.

AgentofHellfire
2013-10-14, 12:55 PM
What I do think is that the Asari are a cancer upon the otherwise fairly good worldbuilding of ME, and that it's impossible to take them seriously as an alien species because they're a blatant vehicle for fanservice. Also, I award Bioware zero points for having Asari complain about being stereotyped, or otherwise trying to 'deconstruct' the Green Skinned Space babe...while also milking those stereotypes for all they're worth.


I should point out about this complaint specifically that the way a lot of stereotypes originate comes from certain (not all) people of that group justifying it.



http://www.cinemablend.com/images/sections/21385/mass_effect_2_21385.jpg
Pictured: An elite Asari warrior. Not pictured: High ****ing heels.

Are we sure that's the uniform she uses in combat, and not just ceremonial garb?

Especially since "elite warrior", once you get to the Industrial Revolution or beyond, often means you yourself aren't actually in battle?

And that there are (http://lvlt.bioware.cdn.ea.com/bioware/u/f/eagames/bioware/masseffect2/resources/assets/media/wallpapers/wallpaper-28-liara-1920x1080.jpg) plenty of examples (http://www.xboxgazette.com/i/pic_mass_effect_races.jpg) of non-vamped up Asari in the images I can find.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I admit that the "Everyone's attracted to them"/"can breed with everyone" bit is weird, I don't think all the issues are a big deal.

AgentofHellfire
2013-10-14, 01:01 PM
Anyway, as you can guess I hate fanservice races as well, I think they are an immature concept designed to lure in teenagers and the like, only that it's even more absurd nowdays when porn is readly available on the Internet for everyone.
We shouldn't need that stuff in our video games/books/movies too.

While I agree that dedicating an entire race to fanservice is a little overboard, I should point out that fanserviced characters can reflect a preference for sources of arousal that are, you know, humans rather than impersonal things on a screen. Which ain't necessarily immature.

The Oni
2013-10-14, 02:14 PM
"Deconstruction" is another term that's mostly been rendered meaningless.



No, it hasn't been rendered meaningless just because some jokers on TVTropes used it in improper context; it's a real literary device and, BTW, BioWare uses it a lot.

You figure a Proud Warrior Race with few diplomacy skills is likely to be as successful as the Klingons are in Star Trek? Hell, no; they're a lot more likely to have the galaxy turn on them, and end up like the Krogans.


What I do think is that the Asari are a cancer upon the otherwise fairly good worldbuilding of ME, and that it's impossible to take them seriously as an alien species because they're a blatant vehicle for fanservice.

I take it that's why Liara ended up being one of the trilogy's most developed characters and a hugely essential plot point. Several times. :smallannoyed:


http://www.cinemablend.com/images/sections/21385/mass_effect_2_21385.jpg
Pictured: An elite Asari warrior. Not pictured: High ****ing heels.

...The high heels are a fair point.



An easily-missed, overheard side conversation that amounts to several drunk guys speculating. Never mentioned in a Codex entry, nor in any dialog. You never have any option to say to Liara or Samara "hey, don't you have pheromones that are screwing with my head?". Given that the rest of the Codex and dialog conversations goes into detail on everything from the FTL internet to ancient galactic history to how your guns work, that seems like...a bit of an oversight, don't you think?



Dude, what kind of logic is that? You want a universe with verisimilitude, but it doesn't count if you didn't read it in a book? The universe feels more real and alive if you experience it organically.




No, it is not an excellent evolutionary strategy. It doesn't make evolutionary sense, or any other kind of sense for that matter; quite the opposite. It's a fractal of biological nonsense - on every level you examine it, it contains the entire assemblage of fail.

I mean, where to even start? How does something like that even evolve? What kind of mechanisms uses a "neural map" to "scramble" the DNA? How does that even make sense in the first place as a thing to do? What possible benefit is there for information on other species nervous systems? Why evolve a system that enables a species to mate with other sentient species, when you don't have any other sentient species on the planet?



Uh, yeah - the planet the Asari originated on is chock so full of eezo they have to purify all the food for visitors or they'll die from it (That IS in a Codex entry, BTW). When the Asari were little blue lizards crawling out of the primordial soup they were already developing natural biotics, and

They were intelligent humanoids in the last cycle - intelligent enough for the trappings of Prothean religion, at least, but not enough to be considered Reaper-fodder - meaning they've been evolving said powers for several cycles


so it is completely reasonable to think that such a system could have evolved alongside biology as we know it. You realize, of course, that Element Zero itself, and Mass Effect fields, the enabling premise of the entire series, violate the hell out of conventional physics, because it tells conservation of mass to step aside for space-travel - having accepted that, the fact that it allows for cross-species breeding is a minor hurdle at best.




Is there any way you can justify this other than "It lets us add literally mindblowing sex with Blue Skinned Space Babes" ?



How about "If there were an alien race superficially resembling human women with psychic powers this is what they might be like? That their behavior and aesthetics come from being a very long-lived people without a history of gender-based oppression (having no genders to base said oppression off of?)"

If you wanted to get cynical about it, it's ultimately "we ran out of budget and couldn't make an Asari male model to put in our game, so we took the concept and ran with it."

HalfTangible
2013-10-14, 02:57 PM
... Am I the only one who didn't find Samara's exposed cleavage even remotely fanservicey? It's hard to go 'woohoo fanservice' when you just watched this woman kill five people, one of whom was flat on their back, openly admitted she would kill any police officers who got in her way, and then later wants you to help murder her daughter (albeit because she was a space succubus - I have to wonder how that came about or how it remains in the genepool anyway)

What I saw was utter confidence in one's biotic barriers and, to be honest, if something could take down her biotic barriers, it would probably shred through armor too. (The high heels, though, WERE incredibly stupid)

Acatalepsy
2013-10-14, 07:54 PM
Are we sure that's the uniform she uses in combat, and not just ceremonial garb?

Yes. It's the uniform she uses while fighting a bunch of mercenaries, and the uniform she wears when you bring her along to save the galaxy, exchanging gunfire with the enemy- high heels and all.


What I saw was utter confidence in one's biotic barriers and, to be honest, if something could take down her biotic barriers, it would probably shred through armor too. (The high heels, though, WERE incredibly stupid)

The actual military forces of everyone else in the game has armor, even on shielded or biotic troops. This is for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that ME barriers aren't actually supposed to be magic SF 'shields' - among other things, they don't actually stop energy weapons, heat, pressure, radiation, or toxins.

...what it ultimately came down to was that Samara's character design didn't include space for things like "is at least somewhat practical".


No, it hasn't been rendered meaningless just because some jokers on TVTropes used it in improper context; it's a real literary device and, BTW, BioWare uses it a lot.

You figure a Proud Warrior Race with few diplomacy skills is likely to be as successful as the Klingons are in Star Trek? Hell, no; they're a lot more likely to have the galaxy turn on them, and end up like the Krogans.

Deconstruction in the literary sense has nothing to do with anything discussed here. An author can subvert or play with audience expectations (or start to play with expectations and almost try to challenge the audience, only to ultimately jump back into their little safe space), but that's entirely a different thing from 'deconstruction', which deals with language and how we interpret things to have meaning.


I take it that's why Liara ended up being one of the trilogy's most developed characters and a hugely essential plot point. Several times. :smallannoyed:

Liara is one of the most developed characters - but that has literally nothing to do with what we're talking about. There's nothing contradictory between "Asari are a cancer upon the otherwise fairly good worldbuilding of ME, and that it's impossible to take them seriously as an alien species because they're a blatant vehicle for fanservice" and "Liara is one of the most well developed, important characters in the series".

I mean, I liked ME. I wouldn't be posting about it if I didn't. Bioware is at its best when doing characters, and in a lot of ways that's the part that matters. That doesn't mean I'm going to just ignore the problems in the construction of their universe and story.


Dude, what kind of logic is that? You want a universe with verisimilitude, but it doesn't count if you didn't read it in a book? The universe feels more real and alive if you experience it organically.

It doesn't count in the sense that Bioware gets no credit for dealing with the problem if the only place where they so much as acknowledge the problem brought up by the Asari is in this one tiny scene. This is not a small bit of trivia that is being used to flesh out the universe (like, say, trivia on how the extranet works, or indentured servitude on Illium) - this is integral to the concept of the Asari.

You cannot point to this seen and say "look, here's where we dealt with the obvious massive implications of an alien species that can appear universally attractive!". It was a lampshade hung on the problem, a winking nod to the 60's scifi tropes that spawned the Asari, without actually coming out and either using the obvious hooks or resolving the obvious problems.

The closest they come in the codex is to point out how much of the characterization of the Asari as 'promiscuous' is the result of wishful thinking, and that humans often don't take them seriously because of human cultural biases. That's all well and good, but it doesn't deal with the problem that having Space Babes as a literal species is problematic (and huge verisimilitude hit) and that the Asari are the ones most closely associated with sex and sexuality throughout the series.


Uh, yeah - the planet the Asari originated on is chock so full of eezo they have to purify all the food for visitors or they'll die from it (That IS in a Codex entry, BTW). When the Asari were little blue lizards crawling out of the primordial soup they were already developing natural biotics, and so it is completely reasonable to think that such a system could have evolved alongside biology as we know it. You realize, of course, that Element Zero itself, and Mass Effect fields, the enabling premise of the entire series, violate the hell out of conventional physics, because it tells conservation of mass to step aside for space-travel - having accepted that, the fact that it allows for cross-species breeding is a minor hurdle at best.

I don't get on ME for having, well, the Mass Effect. It's sort of in the name, it's literally what makes the entire setting work. It's how you can take space opera, and condense the handwavium down to managable chunks, and ME does a damned fine job of it. In narrative terms, it's part of the premise of the story; it does some physically questionable stuff (not quite as questionable as you might imply, actually) but it keeps that stuff consistent, explained.

The mass effect itself is not real or plausible by what we know of physics, but once you grant it, everything else pretty much follows. Shields, FTL, flying cars, etc. Biotics are much more sketchy, but it doesn't actually wreck any part of the setting to suppose that this might be possible.

So ,biotics I can give a pass - but notably, what does not follow from "eezo is a thing" is "oh, by the way, evolution now does bat**** insane stuff like nonsensical brainsex because reasons". There's literally nothing about eezo that makes that 'evolutionary' path work. I don't want to go back to here (http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/36157273.jpg) (I will if you want to go there, but let's not), but suffice it to say that there's no biological justification you can cook up in universe that explains the Asari as they are presented.

And again - even if by some twisted train of logic you can justify it in-universe (I guess by a really perverted Prothean? I don't think anything else will work) what it comes down to is that Bioware decided that they wanted Green Skinned Space Babes, and then not really deal with it.


How about "If there were an alien race superficially resembling human women with psychic powers this is what they might be like? That their behavior and aesthetics come from being a very long-lived people without a history of gender-based oppression (having no genders to base said oppression off of?)"

Yeah, it's funny how that works out to "somehow ends up as if designed by artists to be titillating for heterosexual adolescent males, and an obvious tribute/reference to 60's science fiction tropes (see: Green Skinned Space Babes)".

(Also the psychic powers - not the biotics, that's covered under eezo - but the actual psychic powers - are sort of bull**** and another part of the Asari that needs to go die in a fire.)


If you wanted to get cynical about it, it's ultimately "we ran out of budget and couldn't make an Asari male model to put in our game, so we took the concept and ran with it."

That's fairly obviously not what happened. They didn't have female Turian, Salarian, Batarian or Krogan models, but somehow did not make any of those monogendered races. I don't think they had any male Quarian models in the first game, either, though I could be wrong.

HalfTangible
2013-10-14, 09:58 PM
The actual military forces of everyone else in the game has armor, even on shielded or biotic troops. This is for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that ME barriers aren't actually supposed to be magic SF 'shields' - among other things, they don't actually stop energy weapons, heat, pressure, radiation, or toxins.

...what it ultimately came down to was that Samara's character design didn't include space for things like "is at least somewhat practical".

It still didn't feel like fanservice when someone with exposed cleavage says she had no choice but to kill dozens of people. :smallwink::smalltongue:


It doesn't count in the sense that Bioware gets no credit for dealing with the problem if the only place where they so much as acknowledge the problem brought up by the Asari is in this one tiny scene. This is not a small bit of trivia that is being used to flesh out the universe (like, say, trivia on how the extranet works, or indentured servitude on Illium) - this is integral to the concept of the Asari.

Not on its own but when you do scenes like that repeatedly, creating dozens of characters, situations and bits of lore that contradict the 'we exist to be fanservice' crap, you've done all you can =/

-Ardat-Yakshi
-The girl being wooed by a krogan
-The commando lore
-PTSD/therapist Asari in ME3
-Liara
-Samara (with the exception of her outfit)
-Samara's daughters
-The (semi-)drunk twins on the no-fly list
-And others

Acatalepsy
2013-10-14, 10:36 PM
Not on its own but when you do scenes like that repeatedly, creating dozens of characters, situations and bits of lore that contradict the 'we exist to be fanservice' crap, you've done all you can =/

You're grossly mischaracterizing my argument. I'm very much not claiming that all Asari characters exist only for the purpose of fanservice; I'm claiming that the overall design of the Asari was mostly there to emulate the "Green Skinned Space Babes", and that the reason that they chose to create the alien race this way was, ultimately, because fanservice.

The decision to emulate the "Green Skin Space Babe" design brings in massive verisimilitude problems and implications in the universe, implications that Bioware essentially glosses over. The Asari are blue-skinned space babes, which is incredibly odd in terms of evolution, biology, etc. My point was that this one scene is literally the only place where this problem is brought up, and it's not explained, or explored, or anything. It's just...brought up, as if to wink at the player, and then dropped.

None of the examples you mentioned address this problem in the slightest.

The Oni
2013-10-14, 11:14 PM
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=asexual-lizards

Behold - she is the genetic destiny ancestry of the Asari.

(Un)Inspired
2013-10-15, 01:45 AM
Wow I started reading this thread curious to find out what odd hatreds people have pent up about varrious obscure fantasy races and it turns out that

A. Everyone just hates elves and

B. Asari need to dress more sensibly, after all, it gets drafty in space

Well I hate elves as much as the next guy and if a buxom blue woman starts rubbing against me I'm more likely to take her to a doctor than to my bedroom.

What I really hate is any race in fantasy that focuses on magical technology. I guess gnomes are often shoehorned into this role but its not uncommon for dwarves either. Why are there incredible overly complicated magical guns instead of just normal guns? Its like the authors desperately wanted to include modern inventions into their work but couldn't just add cars and guns and airplanes to their world. Never mind the fact that actual middle ages knights had guns and shot each other.

HalfTangible
2013-10-15, 01:51 AM
You're grossly mischaracterizing my argument. I'm very much not claiming that all Asari characters exist only for the purpose of fanservice; I'm claiming that the overall design of the Asari was mostly there to emulate the "Green Skinned Space Babes", and that the reason that they chose to create the alien race this way was, ultimately, because fanservice.

Yeah. The archetype is created, and then that archetype is turned on its head. That's how a deconstruction works >.>


The decision to emulate the "Green Skin Space Babe" design brings in massive verisimilitude problems and implications in the universe, implications that Bioware essentially glosses over. The Asari are blue-skinned space babes, which is incredibly odd in terms of evolution, biology, etc. My point was that this one scene is literally the only place where this problem is brought up, and it's not explained, or explored, or anything. It's just...brought up, as if to wink at the player, and then dropped.How is it odd that the Asari are able to mate with pretty much anything and produce more Asari? That's friggen gold for evolution.


None of the examples you mentioned address this problem in the slightest.

:smallsigh: Then I have absolutely no idea what you would accept as 'addressing the problem'.


What I really hate is any race in fantasy that focuses on magical technology. I guess gnomes are often shoehorned into this role but its not uncommon for dwarves either. Why are there incredible overly complicated magical guns instead of just normal guns? Its like the authors desperately wanted to include modern inventions into their work but couldn't just add cars and guns and airplanes to their world. Never mind the fact that actual middle ages knights had guns and shot each other.

What's wrong with magitech? :smallconfused: Technology with a magical power source, I see no problem with that =/

Tanuki Tales
2013-10-15, 08:44 AM
I always find it amazing that I kind of glossed over things like "the Asari don't make sense!" in part because of the otherwise amazing storytelling of the game. That...and you know...my undying hate for Bioware and EA after what they called ME3.

Though this discussion does make it quite interesting that mammalian life seems to have been the least likely to evolve to sapience level in the MEverse. Asari, Krogan, Salarians and Drell are reptilian (probably the Volus and Yahg are too). Protheans look like they have some form of arthropod ancestry (I want to say Batarians do too and Rachni definitely are) and Vorcha are probably descended from some kind of flatworm. Turians are avian in descent, Hanar are jellyfish and we just don't know about Quarians.

Kalmageddon
2013-10-15, 09:27 AM
Asari[...] are reptilian

Are they? Because they have pretty prominently displayed mammary glands...

LibraryOgre
2013-10-15, 11:19 AM
Though this discussion does make it quite interesting that mammalian life seems to have been the least likely to evolve to sapience level in the MEverse. Asari, Krogan, Salarians and Drell are reptilian (probably the Volus and Yahg are too). Protheans look like they have some form of arthropod ancestry (I want to say Batarians do too and Rachni definitely are) and Vorcha are probably descended from some kind of flatworm. Turians are avian in descent, Hanar are jellyfish and we just don't know about Quarians.

I don't get arthropodoid ancestry for Batarians, nor reptiloid for Asari, or nematodoid for Vorcha. Batarians have a lot of eyes, yes, but that's not terribly unreasonable for something that developed elsewhere.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 11:49 AM
~snip~

...rather than try to continue this quote by quote, I'd like to back up a bit and clarify exactly what my points are. There are two of them, and the one builds off of the other.

The first is that the Asari were designed as a fanservice race, a sort of reference or tribute to the Green Skinned Space Babes that James T. Kirk would boldly go into. It isn't debatable that this is what they've done - it's been explicitly acknowledged by Bioware that this is what they set out to do with the Asari. That Bioware didn't use them exclusively for this is entirely besides the point. Leaving aside the misuse of the concept of deconstruction - subverting expectations in a limited way or explicitly acknowledging the absurdity of the conventions you're following is not deconstruction, not even in the bastardized sense that it's used by a certain wiki - it remains that they chose to build their universe so that one of the most prominent alien races you encountered was looked like blue-skinned female humanoids with a cultural imperative to sleep with aliens. (I'd also note that the Asari are also the ones most closely associated with sex and sexuality despite everything else, so even if I was going to accept the premise of them being a 'deconstruction', they're pretty clearly a poor one.)

The second point is that, in their desire to build said Green Skinned Space Babes Race, they were sacrificing verisimilitude and the otherwise relatively hard scifi of ME. It's impossible to look at an Asari and think "wow, that's really an alien" versus "wow, they really wanted to appeal to heterosexual teenage boys" - and I should note that this hit to verisimilitude is mostly independent of whatever in-universe scientific speculation or rationalization Bioware can cook up.

But of course, they don't actually cook up a rationalization. It makes approximately zero sense that not one but multiple alien species, independently evolved across the galaxy, would find them sexually attractive. The "one scene" that we've kept referring back to is on Illium, where a bunch of drunk guys suggest that maybe the Asari appear to be attactive to different species for different reasons, which is...doing very poorly on the "explaining how the hell any of this makes sense" front. There's actually another reference, in a conversation with Mordin, but it's again a single line of dialog that's more or less entirely forgettable (as evidenced by all of us forgetting it). All of this is speculation, not in-universe fact, and from a narrative point of view, it all comes across as a winking nod at the absurdity of it - which if anything makes it worse.

And that's not getting into them being psychic sort of randomly. Points for tying it into their reproduction, no points for said reproduction system being nonsensical in the first place. No, it really doesn't make any evolutionary sense to be able to meld with other sentients, since, uh, other sentient species didn't exist on the Asari homeworld while they were evolving - there literally cannot be any evolutionary advantage. Genetics doesn't allow matings between species with different sets of genes nevermind different biochemistries to work; they handwave this off as using the partner's nervous system to as a "map" to "randomize" parts of their own genome but that doesn't make any sense either. It's literally a fractal of "biology does not that way!"

Thus, the Asari are the weakest part of the ME universe. Many of their traits, on their own, would have been interesting, but taken together it's a melting pot of absurdity held together by a stupid idea from science fiction that's half a century old.

And to clarify further, based on objections that have been raised already: None of this means that there aren't good Asari characters. Bioware does characters awesome (shame about their ability to write plot), so bringing up Asari characters being something other than sex objects is entirely missing the point.


Are they? Because they have pretty prominently displayed mammary glands...

For extra biological WTF factor, they have prominent mammary glands even when they'll be incapable of reproducing for more than a century.

AgentofHellfire
2013-10-15, 12:22 PM
Yes. It's the uniform she uses while fighting a bunch of mercenaries, and the uniform she wears when you bring her along to save the galaxy, exchanging gunfire with the enemy- high heels and all.

*nods*

Alright then, second question: Is the normal combat uniform for all (including Asari) races actually meant to be protective, or is it more like Colonial-era military garb?





They didn't have female Turian, Salarian, Batarian or Krogan models, but somehow did not make any of those monogendered races.

*finds that vaguely annoying, actually, but doesn't see what that has to do with Asari*



Yeah, it's funny how that works out to "somehow ends up as if designed by artists to be titillating for heterosexual adolescent males, and an obvious tribute/reference to 60's science fiction tropes (see: Green Skinned Space Babes)".

Just because they added in the titillating elements (which, by the way, aren't only titillating to heterosexual male adolescents) doesn't mean they started there.

To be honest, I think they pretty much solely started from the tribute end of things.





For extra biological WTF factor, they have prominent mammary glands even when they'll be incapable of reproducing for more than a century.



...if they're incapable of reproducing for that long, how do they exist?

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 01:18 PM
Alright then, second question: Is the normal combat uniform for all (including Asari) races actually meant to be protective, or is it more like Colonial-era military garb?

Yes.


Modern combat hard-suits have a "triple canopy" of protection: shields, armor, and self-repair. The outermost layer is created through kinetic barrier emitters, which detect objects incoming at a high rate of speed and generate deflecting "shields" provided they have enough energy in their power cells.

If a bullet or other incoming object gets past the barrier, it contends with the more traditional body armor. A sealed suit of non-porous ballistic cloth provides kinetic and environmental protection, reinforced by lightweight composite ceramic plates in areas that either don't need to flex or require additional coverage, such as the chest and head. When the armor is hit by directed energy weapons, the plates boil away or ablate rather than burning the wearer.

The last level of protection is provided by the suit's microframe computers, whose input detectors are woven throughout the fabric. These manage the self-healing system, which finds rents in the fabric and, assuming any such tear would wound the flesh underneath, seals the area off with sterile, non-conductive medi-gel. This stanches minor wounds and plugs holes in the suit that could prove fatal in vacuum or toxic environments. Soldiers are not always fond of the "squish skin" that oozes gel on them at a moment's notice, but fatalities have dropped sharply since the system was implemented.

Modern body armor includes powered exoskeleton assist, on board medical assistance, filters, additional layers of shielding, armor plating, stimulants, etc. The Asari tend to favor lighter armor, but they still have some, including the Asari commandos and mercenaries you end up fighting.

For bonus points, there exist ammunition types that can mostly bypass shields, at the cost of significantly reduced effectiveness against armor. Most of the time, it's better to simply power through their shields (or disable them via some other means, like overload grenades), but if for whatever reason your opponent doesn't have any actual armor....


To be honest, I think they pretty much solely started from the tribute end of things.

I agree, but that begs the question of why they thought doing so was a good idea after spending more than ten seconds thinking through the implications.


...if they're incapable of reproducing for that long, how do they exist?

Thousand year life span, they don't become fully sexually mature until 350 or so. You meet an Asari that's a hundred years old, who already has prominent mammary glands.

Tanuki Tales
2013-10-15, 01:27 PM
Are they? Because they have pretty prominently displayed mammary glands...


I don't get arthropodoid ancestry for Batarians, nor reptiloid for Asari, or nematodoid for Vorcha. Batarians have a lot of eyes, yes, but that's not terribly unreasonable for something that developed elsewhere.

I thought someone just mentioned in this thread that their codex entries mention a reptilian evolutionary track for Asari. I sure haven't read the codex in a pretty long time to be honest.

A nematodoid ancestry would explain the propensity for Vorcha regeneration and adaptability though.

I'll admit I'm reaching for Batarians though.

My main point is that humans seem to be the only solid and concrete mammalian citadel race.

Edit:

I forget, is the whole "embrace eternity" thing part of their biotics? Because the Protheans did genetically engineer biotics into the Asari.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 01:30 PM
My main point is that humans seem to be the only solid and concrete mammalian citadel race.

Well, that's hardly surprising; mammals are a subgroup that arose on earth, but we'd have no particular reason to think that aliens would evolve subgroups of animals analogous to our own.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 01:35 PM
I forget, is the whole "embrace eternity" thing part of their biotics? Because the Protheans did genetically engineer biotics into the Asari.

Supposedly the reason that they're so talented at biotics is partially because of their 'unique' method of reproduction (on top of the Prothean engineering, I suppose), but then, it's not at all clear if Bioware actually decided that they'd been engineered in ME1 and 2.

Their psychic powers are tied into the method of reproduction; Liara is sort of having brainsex with Shepard when she does that thing.

(Inclusion of random psychic brainsex powers as part of the bisexual space babe package is another reason that the Asari are a cancer on the setting.)

LibraryOgre
2013-10-15, 01:35 PM
I thought someone just mentioned in this thread that their codex entries mention a reptilian evolutionary track for Asari. I sure haven't read the codex in a pretty long time to be honest.

A nematodoid ancestry would explain the propensity for Vorcha regeneration and adaptability though.

I'll admit I'm reaching for Batarians though.

My main point is that humans seem to be the only solid and concrete mammalian citadel race.

The thing is, I think it's irrelevant. While mammalian and so on are useful descriptors on Earth, they're essentially meaningless once you get off. While Rachni share some similarities with Earthly arthropods, the fact is they're not, even less so than a Tasmanian Wolf was related to a grey wolf because they look alike. They're convergent evolution due to some similar circumstances, at the very best.

Vorcha regenerate quickly... but there's nothing else in them to suggest that their more recent ancestors were nematode-like... you could easily point to salamanders, lizards, or their resemblance to naked mole-rats and say that their ancestors were like that. What is given is that their individual evolutionary circumstances supported an adaptive chassis, as it were.

Tanuki Tales
2013-10-15, 01:39 PM
The thing is, I think it's irrelevant. While mammalian and so on are useful descriptors on Earth, they're essentially meaningless once you get off. While Rachni share some similarities with Earthly arthropods, the fact is they're not, even less so than a Tasmanian Wolf was related to a grey wolf because they look alike. They're convergent evolution due to some similar circumstances, at the very best.

It's hardly irrelevant since the whole point was, "hey, look, isn't it neat how mammalian evolution doesn't seem to be a thing anywhere but on Earth?"


Vorcha regenerate quickly... but there's nothing else in them to suggest that their more recent ancestors were nematode-like... you could easily point to salamanders, lizards, or their resemblance to naked mole-rats and say that their ancestors were like that. What is given is that their individual evolutionary circumstances supported an adaptive chassis, as it were.

Vorcha are specifically called out to have a biology similar to planarian worms.

@Acatalepsy: Well, Asari were artificially given biotics entirely by the Protheans, so I guess that'd mean that it's plausible that their reproductive method could have been instilled artificially as well. Raises the question of "why" though.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 02:17 PM
@Acatalepsy: Well, Asari were artificially given biotics entirely by the Protheans, so I guess that'd mean that it's plausible that their reproductive method could have been instilled artificially as well. Raises the question of "why" though.

See my "somewhat Perverted Promethean" hypothesis.

...and, of course, the in-universe reasons is more or less irrelevant. They could have done better - they didn't, but they could have - but it doesn't matter because the verisimilitude hit comes from the fact that they chose to emulate a stupid, outdate genre convention, not any particular flaw in their in-universe justification.

The Oni
2013-10-15, 02:26 PM
Asari were artificially given biotics entirely by the Protheans, so I guess that'd mean that it's plausible that their reproductive method could have been instilled artificially as well. Raises the question of "why" though.

Because the Protheans ALSO wanted green blue-skinned space babes?

But seriously, if you're running what by most standards would be an "evil empire" and you can create slaves that are exotic and supernaturally attractive, while also ensuring that the resulting offspring would never work their way into your society (a common problem in empires such as Rome) while also being suitable for other tasks like biotic strike forces? Sure.

Of course, this would imply that the Prothean capacity for biotics was enormous enough that powerful Asari biotics would pose no immediate threat to them. Javik was kind of a so-so biotic, but he was a pretty common soldier, too.

Ceiling_Squid
2013-10-15, 02:50 PM
@Lord Smeagle

Wait, the Protheans intended the Asari to be slaves?

I thought the Asari were intended to lead the next cycle, hence the long-term uplift. The Protheans knew they were fighting a losing war against the Reapers for years. I thought the powerful Asari biotics weren't something they intended to ever have to contend with, because by the time it was a factor, the Protheans expected to be gone. The Asari were supposed to be their successors, not their slaves.

In fact, I think I recall Javik expressing disappointment in how the Asari turned out, during a dialogue with Liara. Mainly because the humans were the ones who were taking the reins instead, spearheading the fight.

At least, that's the impression I got. They gave the Asari their universal attractiveness and biotics so that they would be natural leaders. Diplomats intended to bring multiple species together.

Which would explain their ability to mate with and be attractive to multiple species...

Psyren
2013-10-15, 03:36 PM
...then you come to the Asari. A race of green blue/purple skinned space babe bisexuals. Who can breed with every species because [bull**** reasons] and every species thinks is sexy. Who also have natural force powers. Really, Bioware? Just - really?

Technically they don't breed with anyone. Parthenogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis) is a real thing that exists.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 03:51 PM
Technically they don't breed with anyone. Parthenogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis) is a real thing that exists.

Except that in the actual game they are treated as effectively being able to breed with any species. I am perfectly aware of all the various ways that critters make more of themselves, and exactly none of them are relevant to my comment.

Psyren
2013-10-15, 04:04 PM
Except that in the actual game they are treated as effectively being able to breed with any species.

The codex and Liara's explanation are both parts of "the actual game."

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 05:23 PM
The codex and Liara's explanation are both parts of "the actual game."

....in both of which they are treated as effectively being able to breed with other species. I mean, two sentient beings knock dangly bits (sorry, "meld their nervous systems together") and then offspring are produced, with one of said beings considered the "mother" and the other the "father" of said offspring.

Psyren
2013-10-15, 05:50 PM
....in both of which they are treated as effectively being able to breed with other species. I mean, two sentient beings knock dangly bits (sorry, "meld their nervous systems together") and then offspring are produced, with one of said beings considered the "mother" and the other the "father" of said offspring.

This right here shows me you don't actually understand the Asari at all.

Shepard: "I don't understand. Your species can mate with anyone?"
Liara: "'Mating' is not quite the proper term. Not as you understand it. Physical contact may or may not be involved, but it is not an essential component of the union. The true connection is mental."

Direct from ME1. The "dangly bits" are an added extra at best, not actually how they mate.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 06:04 PM
This right here shows me you don't actually understand the Asari at all.

Shepard: "I don't understand. Your species can mate with anyone?"
Liara: "'Mating' is not quite the proper term. Not as you understand it. Physical contact may or may not be involved, but it is not an essential component of the union. The true connection is mental."

Direct from ME1. The "dangly bits" are an added extra at best, not actually how they mate.

I'd link the ME1 Liara melding scene, except I'm reasonably sure it would violate board rules.

...and in any case that's irrelevant to the point that I was actually making, which is that they're treated as being able to breed with any species. It's not "quite" the "proper" term...it's just treated like it is for most purposes.

(Un)Inspired
2013-10-15, 06:27 PM
I wonder if all those people in those asari strip clubs think that the "dangly bits" are just extra at best

Psyren
2013-10-15, 06:34 PM
I'd link the ME1 Liara melding scene, except I'm reasonably sure it would violate board rules.

...and in any case that's irrelevant to the point that I was actually making, which is that they're treated as being able to breed with any species. It's not "quite" the "proper" term...it's just treated like it is for most purposes.

The fact that they enjoy getting physical is indeed irrelevant. Onanism causes pleasure too, but it has zero purpose in terms of actual propagation of a species.


I wonder if all those people in those asari strip clubs think that the "dangly bits" are just extra at best

The purpose of a strip club is reproduction now?

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 06:37 PM
The fact that they enjoy getting physical is indeed irrelevant. Onanism causes pleasure too, but it has zero purpose in terms of actual propagation of a species.

Technically, they don't breed with other species.

This is entirely irrelevant for the purpose of discussing their place in Bioware's worldbuilding, which treats the Asari reproductive process as literally mindblowing sex.

(Un)Inspired
2013-10-15, 06:48 PM
The purpose of a strip club is reproduction now?

I hope not.

The asari are a manufactured race. The protheans could have made yodeling activate parthenogenic pregnancies in them. The specificities of the biology are unimportant because bio ware cast them as fetish fuel station attendants.

Maybe they came up with a terrific, scientifically sound explanation for their reproductive cycles. That doesn't matter because any explanation will always play second fiddle to the fact that bioware and EA wanted blue breasts in their space game

Psyren
2013-10-15, 07:18 PM
Technically, they don't breed with other species.

Excellent! We're getting somewhere.



This is entirely irrelevant for the purpose of discussing their place in Bioware's worldbuilding, which treats the Asari reproductive process as literally mindblowing sex.

You say that like it's a bad thing :smalltongue:
(Note that Asari don't appeal to me in the slightest.)

It's implied that everyone is attracted to them through a mix of telempathic attraction, pheromones, and the "blind monks describing the elephant" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant) fable, that last demonstrated by the salarian bachelor party scene.



The asari are a manufactured race.

Where on earth did you get that? The Protheans discovered them and guided them, but they didn't create them.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 07:27 PM
Excellent! We're getting somewhere.

I've never denied that; it's just entirely irrelevant.


It's implied that everyone is attracted to them through a mix of telempathic attraction, pheromones, and the "blind monks describing the elephant" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant) fable, that last demonstrated by the salarian bachelor party scene.

...we already discussed that, too.


Where on earth did you get that? The Protheans discovered them and guided them, but they didn't create them.

They were manufactured by Bioware, and the fact that they were obvious manufactured by the game company for the purpose of hawt aliens (regardless of whether or not you personally find them attractive) is the entire problem that was being discussed.


http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090827175109/masseffect/images/thumb/d/d7/Sha%27ira6.png/270px-Sha%27ira6.png
Shar'ira, the Consort. Notably, the only prostitute in the game you can have sex with. (Yes, she's not exactly a prostitute, but the point stands regardless)

Marnath
2013-10-15, 07:44 PM
Technically, they don't breed with other species.

This is entirely irrelevant for the purpose of discussing their place in Bioware's worldbuilding, which treats the Asari reproductive process as literally mindblowing sex.

No matter how many times you say that it still won't be true. It is well established throughout the series that the sex part is not connected to the mind-meld part. Ereba (the "Blue Rose of Illium") even explicitly states that no alien DNA is used in the process. Any implication otherwise is your own invention.

The Oni
2013-10-15, 07:44 PM
...But, your argument seems to amount to "They can be used for fanservice, therefore they were made for fanservice." Which is wrong. They're attractive and that's fine, but you insist that their reproductive system is illogical, when all it is is fundamentally parthenogenesis + psychic powers. Unless you have a problem with psychic powers, which again, is kind of a founding premise of the series.

(Un)Inspired
2013-10-15, 08:12 PM
I'm so psychically endowed that when I step off my ship into Illium, 4 million asari get pregnant - ancient Krogan boast

Acatalepsy
2013-10-15, 08:16 PM
No matter how many times you say that it still won't be true. It is well established throughout the series that the sex part is not connected to the mind-meld part. Ereba (the "Blue Rose of Illium") even explicitly states that no alien DNA is used in the process. Any implication otherwise is your own invention.

First of all, I didn't imply that alien DNA was used. I stated outright that "melding" is treated as basically equivalent to sex by the narrative and by the characters and by the codex, which I have a hard time imagining anyone disagreeing with.

Whether or not DNA is exchanged is irrelevant. Everyone treats it as equivalent to sex - the only thing even vaguely resembling an exception is Liara and that other commando scrambling Shepard's head, but it's not treated in the narrative as equivalent of Melding so much as auxiliary use of the psychic/mystic powers the Asari have, like Morinth's mind control shenanigans (though one is free to read...implications...into it if one so desires).


...But, your argument seems to amount to "They can be used for fanservice, therefore they were made for fanservice." Which is wrong. They're attractive and that's fine, but you insist that their reproductive system is illogical, when all it is is fundamentally parthenogenesis + psychic powers. Unless you have a problem with psychic powers, which again, is kind of a founding premise of the series.

First, that's not my argument. Please try reading my argument again. Second, Bioware said that they were explicitly designed to be Green Skinned Space Babes, which only ever existed in the first place for fanservice? I mean that seems like a slam dunk to me.

Oh, and their reproductive system really doesn't make any sense, on account of requiring not only psychic powers, but also requiring those psychic powers to somehow "randomize" the DNA involved (which doesn't make sense as a thing to do either), and I'm not a biologist but I'm reasonably sure that they break evolution. I guess you could say a Prothean did it but then we're back to the entire galaxy failing at evolutionary biology forever.

Psychic powers aren't actually required by the ME series; biotics sort of are, but biotics are explicitly noted to not be psychic powers. The psychic powers are simply unnecessary for the series to function, whereas without the Mass Effect the entire thing sort of collapses.

Also -


http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110515165760/masseffect/images/thumb/1/18/Morinth002.png/270px-Morinth002.png
This is Morinth. She's literally a succubus that kills via sex.
You've also completely failed to address my point with regard to verisimilitude, which is entirely independent of the scientific rationalizations they can or can't cook up.

Tanuki Tales
2013-10-15, 08:45 PM
Isn't this in the wrong section now? :smallconfused:

The Oni
2013-10-15, 09:00 PM
Biotics are psychic powers. You can call them any old thing you want, but that doesn't change the fact that "humanoid thinks really hard and stuff moves."

Psyren
2013-10-15, 10:08 PM
This is Morinth. She's literally a succubus that kills via sex.

Placing your hand on someone's fully-clothed chest is sex? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm6ngV-Kcyw) :smallconfused:

Scow2
2013-10-15, 11:12 PM
I've not seen any Mammary Glands on Asari. They have developed breasts, yes, but... Breasts =/= Mammary Glands. Mammary glands are small and located near the teat. "Breasts" are a buildup of fatty and connective tissue on the upper ventral side of the humanoid figure that can contain the mammary glands... but don't necessarily do so when we move into non-mammalian humanoids seen in fantasy and sci-fi settings.

I've always imagined that Asari are closer to Illithids than humans, especially in light of the two statements about Asari appearance (Which are discussed as throwaway... but they're really not). Are there any sources that actually describe the apperance of an Asari in an objective way?

When you think you're making out with a hot, blue-skinned tentacle-haired space babe, you're actually making out with a Cthuhu-esque cosmic horror (There are statues of what might be Asari in the prothean ruins at the end of the first game: Remember all those squid-faced statues?).

Also, given the squidlike appearance of the Reapers, it's clear that the Asari were chosen by the Reapers to be the leading force in the universe (Through their Prothean pawns - everything was going exactly as the Reapers had planned it), and the sheer number of Squid-shaped reapers (Which are made in appearance of the races that make them, according to ME2) implies that the Hanarr and Asari were probably supposed to be the dominant races.

Asari are cephalopods, not Reptiles.

Zanos
2013-10-15, 11:17 PM
I'm so psychically endowed that when I step off my ship into Illium, 4 million asari get pregnant - ancient Krogan boast

I actually find it amusing that the Asari are the ones being accused of being the least well written race. I'll admit that blue-skinned sexy bisexual race of entirely women is absolutely packed fanservice. But how can you complain about poor writing and not mention that the Proud Warrior Race Guys in the setting literally have four testicles?

The Oni
2013-10-16, 12:59 AM
^Not weird at all, really. In theory, human males only need one testicle to do what(/who) they do, but we have two because it's a superior design and would result in higher fertility assuming all of them worked properly. Four would be even better (although perhaps uncomfortable when wearing skinny jeans). Also, part of Krogan physiology is that they have redundancies of all their important organs, which is what makes them so damn hard to kill - testicles would be considered pretty important especially when your neighbors are brutal fighters willing to aim right for 'em in a territory dispute.

Tanuki Tales
2013-10-16, 09:51 AM
Also, given the squidlike appearance of the Reapers, it's clear that the Asari were chosen by the Reapers to be the leading force in the universe (Through their Prothean pawns - everything was going exactly as the Reapers had planned it), and the sheer number of Squid-shaped reapers (Which are made in appearance of the races that make them, according to ME2) implies that the Hanarr and Asari were probably supposed to be the dominant races.

Asari are cephalopods, not Reptiles.

The Protheans are the ones who uplifted the Asari and not the Collectors.

And I see less evidence that Asari are cephalopods than Batarians were arthropods.

Scow2
2013-10-16, 03:58 PM
The Protheans are the ones who uplifted the Asari and not the Collectors.

And I see less evidence that Asari are cephalopods than Batarians were arthropods.The Protheans were pawns of the Reapers too, just as the Asari, Salarians, and Turians were. And every race that predated the Reapers as well. The Reapers entirely live up to their name in the games: They're glorified farmers. They till and fertilize the Galaxy to provide the sentient species it needs for whatever reason (Far beyond our recognition), places a few things to guide the species along a set development plan, ensure the species developing remain complacent and ignorant of the threat, then the harvest comes, a lot of drama, and then silence... and the universe is re-seeded to grow again.

And then a bunch of incredibly productive simian weeds popped up and ruined everything. Seriously... In spite of every Asari attempt to thwart them, the Humans managed to push ahead, unveil the Reaper threat (Then get denied and ignored by the Asari-dominant leadership), and eventually manage to stop the reapers, and bring the Asari around to realizing they were playing right into the Reaper's hands.

The Asari are Cephalopods because the Primary Reapers resemble Cephalopods, and Asari were supposed to be the primary race this time around. They just use their mind-control powers to make everyone think otherwise (And see them as attractive to them... in form and motion.) Samara doesn't fight in high-heels or anything like that. "She" wears practical body armor under a biotic illusion. Likewise, the Asari are merely jiggling celaphopods in the strip clubs - the biotic illusion causes observers to interpret it as an incredibly erotic dance to the species in question

I think it's intellectually dishonest to say that the Asari aren't a race of blue-skinned Fanservice (The designers openly admitted as such). However, it's even more intellectually dishonest to say that's all they are, or even primarily so. "Hot blue-skinned Space Babe" isn't even the high concept of the race - it's merely the brainstorming prompt.

Tanuki Tales
2013-10-16, 06:56 PM
-snip-

Sorry, I completely missed you were being sarcastic.

Scow2
2013-10-16, 07:03 PM
Sorry, I completely missed you were being sarcastic.Not being Sarcastic. I just have a crazy fan-theory that cannot be refuted without further evidence. Hence Purple Psycho Text instead of Blue Sarcastic Text

Tanuki Tales
2013-10-16, 07:06 PM
Not being Sarcastic. I just have a crazy fan-theory that cannot be refuted without further evidence. Hence Purple Psycho Text instead of Blue Sarcastic Text

So you're just ribbing the topic, right?

Scow2
2013-10-16, 07:17 PM
So you're just ribbing the topic, right?I'm propogating my "Asari are actually like Illithids" idea that is clearly the truth, even if the game tries to hide it! It's so obvious.

So... yes, maybe? But I don't see how a race of manipulative Squid-thingies that can alter perception of those looking at them are merely dismissed as "Sexy fanservice race"

Marnath
2013-10-16, 07:28 PM
When you think you're making out with a hot, blue-skinned tentacle-haired space babe, you're actually making out with a Cthuhu-esque cosmic horror (There are statues of what might be Asari in the prothean ruins at the end of the first game: Remember all those squid-faced statues?).


I think I remember hearing somewhere that those statues are supposed to be of the Inusannon, the people who came before the Protheans.

Weiser_Cain
2013-10-16, 08:59 PM
Meh, I think they just redesigned the protheans after the collectors and retconned the previous appearance away.

Face tentacles would probably bee too hard to do right, especially on consoles and too alien for general consumption.

Psyren
2013-10-16, 10:26 PM
It's not really a retcon - nobody really knew what those statues were, everyone just assumed they were prothean statues. It would only be a retcon if the story established them as prothean and then changed it.


(Face tentacles? Ood, in my ME?)

Lorsa
2013-10-17, 06:48 AM
Everyone in Bioware games is attractive, it's hardly limiting to the Asari. When did you see an ugly human? Dragon Age is especially bad since it implies that medieval living conditions make people more attractive. So however you judge the Asari, it can't be on a basis that they're all attractive because that applies to every single character in Bioware's games with a human-like appearance.

Psyren
2013-10-17, 08:30 AM
Everyone in Bioware games is attractive, it's hardly limiting to the Asari. When did you see an ugly human? Dragon Age is especially bad since it implies that medieval living conditions make people more attractive. So however you judge the Asari, it can't be on a basis that they're all attractive because that applies to every single character in Bioware's games with a human-like appearance.

Except Shepard (http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4340/uglyshep628.jpg) :smallbiggrin:

Grim Portent
2013-10-17, 09:13 AM
Except Shepard (http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4340/uglyshep628.jpg) :smallbiggrin:

Did... did someone shave a dead monkey and then bring it back from the dead? :smalleek:

LibraryOgre
2013-10-17, 11:05 AM
Except Shepard (http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4340/uglyshep628.jpg) :smallbiggrin:


Did... did someone shave a dead monkey and then bring it back from the dead? :smalleek:

You can hardly blame Bioware for Shepard being ugly. Though, in WWE All Stars, I had one girl make two characters... one where every slider was set to maximum, the other where every slider was set to minimum. It created some... interesting... physical appearances.

Weiser_Cain
2013-10-17, 11:35 PM
Everyone in Bioware games is attractive, it's hardly limiting to the Asari. When did you see an ugly human? Dragon Age is especially bad since it implies that medieval living conditions make people more attractive. So however you judge the Asari, it can't be on a basis that they're all attractive because that applies to every single character in Bioware's games with a human-like appearance.

Kaiden didn't do it for me...

Lorsa
2013-10-18, 03:32 AM
Kaiden didn't do it for me...

...are you sure that wasn't his personality?

Jokes aside, there will be exceptions to every rule. I found that in ME, the male models were much more diverse compared to the female models. I thought that to be sad because variety is always good.

In Dragon Age however, the models are even more similar.

Psyren
2013-10-18, 09:29 AM
One of the problems with Dragon Age is that diversity is linked to region - so you'll see the more tan individuals coming from Antiva, the paler folks from Ferelden etc. Because it's a visual cue for the player they had a lot less freedom in distinguishing individuals around the world. And of course there aren't many dwarves or elves in the crowd, so it's 85% humans, causing them to run out of variation fast.

Another problem with DA is they have a hard time modeling age. They can color hair, but their ability to add realistic facial creases or aged bodies (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/stolen-pixels/6848-Stolen-Pixels-148-Dragon-Aged) was limited.

Mass Effect meanwhile could have a sea of human faces with all manner of skin and hair color combinations, and because it's the future not have to worry about ages or regions of origin or anything like that.

LibraryOgre
2013-10-18, 03:17 PM
Kaiden didn't do it for me...

On pretty much any level for me, but I could see that he was reasonably physically attractive. Heck, for all that Udina was a humorless jerkwad, he was still reasonably well put together. Mass Effect didn't have anything like SWtOR's "Body Type 4" (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110220015111/swtor/images/d/d4/Overweight-Sith.jpg).

Psyren
2013-10-18, 03:24 PM
On pretty much any level for me, but I could see that he was reasonably physically attractive. Heck, for all that Udina was a humorless jerkwad, he was still reasonably well put together. Mass Effect didn't have anything like SWtOR's "Body Type 4" (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110220015111/swtor/images/d/d4/Overweight-Sith.jpg).

I wish it did; I wouldn't mind being a chunky adept. (No, not a volus dammit!)

The Oni
2013-10-18, 03:29 PM
Honestly, I think Mass Effect may have just abolished fat people. There's probably some miracle treatment in the future that just dissolves fat in minutes or maybe most spacefaring nations have diets so balanced it's impossible to get fat - minus the volus, who are either naturally shaped like that, or are actually adorable halflings when they're outside of their suits.

LibraryOgre
2013-10-18, 03:41 PM
Honestly, I think Mass Effect may have just abolished fat people. There's probably some miracle treatment in the future that just dissolves fat in minutes or maybe most spacefaring nations have diets so balanced it's impossible to get fat - minus the volus, who are either naturally shaped like that, or are actually adorable halflings when they're outside of their suits.

I think that may be the rationale, though I also suspect it was mostly ease-of-modelling.

The Oni
2013-10-18, 03:51 PM
I think that may be the rationale, though I also suspect it was mostly ease-of-modelling.

Shoo! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Erik Vale
2013-10-18, 09:42 PM
A point I would like to make, plenty of people are annoyed with Asari being psychic and having psychic sex [and even having a mind control ability through Monrinth in game], but no-one seems to have had a problems with the Protheans obvious psychic abilities as far as communication and learning large amounts of information from touching random objects [almost like they have a at will Object Reading on roids]. Also, I don't think it's mentioned where he learns English/Tranlatableish and I don't remember him touching you right away before he talks.... But I'm not so sure on that last point.

Weiser_Cain
2013-10-19, 08:23 AM
The prothean tech is writing to the device, I mean brain. I think it's implied that shepard (and possibly Saren) being able to do/withstand that is his original claim to... usefulness.

Erik Vale
2013-10-19, 04:44 PM
The prothean tech is writing to the device, I mean brain. I think it's implied that shepard (and possibly Saren) being able to do/withstand that is his original claim to... usefulness.

Still, Protheans gain knowledge by touching things, if that isn't stating Protheans are psychic I don't know what is.

Kalmageddon
2013-10-20, 12:32 PM
A point I would like to make, plenty of people are annoyed with Asari being psychic and having psychic sex [and even having a mind control ability through Monrinth in game], but no-one seems to have had a problems with the Protheans obvious psychic abilities as far as communication and learning large amounts of information from touching random objects [almost like they have a at will Object Reading on roids]. Also, I don't think it's mentioned where he learns English/Tranlatableish and I don't remember him touching you right away before he talks.... But I'm not so sure on that last point.

I do have a problem with Protheans being psychic.
I think it's quite stupid.

Scow2
2013-10-20, 01:03 PM
I do have a problem with Protheans being psychic.
I think it's quite stupid.And they think you're quite stupid for NOT being psychic. After all, you're not the one that can alter the world just by thinking about it. :smalltongue:

The setting's pretty obvious that it has Psychic Powers with the serial numbers filed off, and the races most gifted with said Psychic Potential are the ones that adapt best to the galactic environment cultivated by the Reapers, ensuring they rise to prominence and subjugate the less-psychic races.

Then get eaten when the Reapers come.

Mordokai
2013-10-20, 01:11 PM
I do have a problem with Protheans being psychic.
I think it's quite stupid.

You don't have problems with people shooting fire out of their hands, jolts of electricity that are strong enough to kill a human, teleporting over large distances to attack their enemies, slowing down the time itself to attack their enemies... but you draw the line at reading mind?

I... guess that makes kinda sense. Only, you know, not really.

Kalmageddon
2013-10-20, 01:24 PM
You don't have problems with people shooting fire out of their hands, jolts of electricity that are strong enough to kill a human, teleporting over large distances to attack their enemies, slowing down the time itself to attack their enemies... but you draw the line at reading mind?

I... guess that makes kinda sense. Only, you know, not really.

It's not the same thing.
Telekinesis and stuff like that is at least justified by eezo and dark matter bs, but telepathy and similar things are just magic without any pseudo-scientific justification in the lore.

Mordokai
2013-10-20, 01:57 PM
We are talking about space magic opera. If you can accept one sort of magic, I fail to see why you couldn't accept the other.

We don't know how protheans were built and developed. Asari are aliens, in every sense of the word. It's their physiology, their nature, the training... call it what you want.

Seriously, to me being able to incinerate a human with your omni-tool is no different than being able to read his mind. Perhaps the devs could do better job at explaining it. Supplement with imagination as required. Shouldn't be that hard, you're playing a game that requesting you leave any sane explanation and expectation at the door as you wipe your shoes and enter.

Kalmageddon
2013-10-20, 02:02 PM
We are talking about space magic opera. If you can accept one sort of magic, I fail to see why you couldn't accept the other..

Quite a fallacy you got there.

Weiser_Cain
2013-10-20, 02:11 PM
Guys, I really do think it's just suppose to be super-advanced tech at work here.

Unless I'm mistaken Protheans aren't meant to be able to pull memories from your tennis shoes.

Acatalepsy
2013-10-20, 05:39 PM
Quite a fallacy you got there.

This. Accepting eezo and biotics does not mean accepting any and all psychic shenanigans. One of the most refreshing parts about ME is that it doesn't assume the player is a moron or doesn't care about the world. They assume the opposite - that the player will want to know everything about the world, and take it at least somewhat seriously. They go through considerable effort to make it all work.

The Oni
2013-10-20, 06:01 PM
This. Accepting eezo and biotics does not mean accepting any and all psychic shenanigans. One of the most refreshing parts about ME is that it doesn't assume the player is a moron or doesn't care about the world. They assume the opposite - that the player will want to know everything about the world, and take it at least somewhat seriously. They go through considerable effort to make it all work.

And I'm saying that the idea that Asari have racial biotic-like abilities that function like psychic powers is not unreasonable in the slightest. It would be MORE unreasonable to think that the prevalence of something that induces biotic powers in individuals would NOT affect their evolution.

LibraryOgre
2013-10-20, 09:00 PM
I think a lot of it comes down to how things work... because, really, the difference between "hard" sci-fi and "soft" sci-fi is how plausible the rationalizations are.

IMO, ME has one big conceit, and that is the Mass Effect itself. Run an electric current through eezo, and you get an effect. That effect is fairly consistent, and it describes most of what goes on in the setting, from biotics to artificial gravity to FTL travel. Not perfectly, but well enough. Most of the races are pretty plausible in and of themselves, and if it stretches plausibility a bit that so many races are bipedal, four-limbed, oxygen-nitrogen breathers from approximately 1g homeworlds, that's not unreasonable, just a bit unlikely (after all, we have at least 1 example of that configuration working out pretty well).

Then you get the Asari and the Protheans. Now, a lot comes down to how they operate. I can somewhat see the Asari having a degree of mind-reading prowess as a naturally biotic race. Human biotics work by controlling their own neurochemical electricity to stimulate nodes of eezo in their bodies, causing a mild Mass Effect. Humans supplement this to provide more dramatic effects by using amps, which work like power armor for their natural biotic abilities... I lightly push with my mind-muscle, and the amp results in a more forceful push. Asari, however, do not need such amps, instead being able to use their own neurochemical electricity to carry out the same effects.

Now, if we look at terrestrial creatures, we have a number with a degree of electrical sensitivity; the first that comes to mind is the platypus. Assuming a fine degree of control and sensitivity, and the ability to make sense of another species neurochemical electrical patterns, a degree of mind-reading isn't out of the realm of possibility, especially as we're frequently shown it as flashes, rather than a coherent narrative.

Now, I know a lot less about the Protheans, but consider the mechanism I've worked out for the Asari, and apply this externally. I want to let you know certain information, so I encode it into a neurochemical electrical stimulating device... touch this thing, and the memories will be written into your head. Once you get away from the species that created it, however, you get some messed up effects... like Shepard passing out for hours, or the Illusive Man's transformation.

It's not perfect, and there's no doubt some facts from the 3rd game that this does not take into account. But it's a general set of sci-fi ideas that let ME stay over-medium... not hard sci-fi, but not purely soft space opera, either.

SassyQuatch
2013-10-20, 11:19 PM
I'm fine with Asari. Biology warped by eezo,genetically altered, psychic ability, all ptetty syandard fare. Parthenogenesis for reproduction stimulated by psychic hoodoo, no big deal. At least they are consistent.

But the other example of those Vulcans....

Vulcan logic is internet troll logic. Pick a desired result then twist every fact to supposedly support that result, making up some "facts" along the way. Their alignment is "whatever I feel like using to justify my actions today."

"Logic" is needed to control emotional outbursts, but it obviously doesn't work. Plenty of examples where "I'm speaking calmly" is a poorly veiled cover-up for animosity, jealousy, love, etc. And then there's all the outbutsts that happen anyways. Real effective strategy, except that it doesn't work and there are again examples of how some Vulcans can live without the straight jacket of "I'm not emotional, but I'm logical. And I obviously hate you but if I don't say it out loud it doesn't count, nyaaa."

Oh, and for no good reason everybody believes the lie.

Can't stand those green-blooded hobgoblins.

Talya
2013-10-21, 06:41 AM
I don't see the problem with sexual fanservice. The real crime was that Liara was the not very interesting and only lesbian romance option in ME.

I'm no die-hard trekkie, but I have no problem with Vulcans either.

The Oni
2013-10-21, 10:04 AM
There was the Consort, plus Kelly and Traynor in 2 and 3, respectively. Kelly is...a matter of preference, but I rather liked Traynor.

Also Morinth but I think we can all agree she was a bad idea.

Psyren
2013-10-21, 10:21 AM
Unless I'm mistaken Protheans aren't meant to be able to pull memories from your tennis shoes.

But that's exactly what they do. Javik got a pretty good reading on Grunt just by being in the same room where he lived.


This. Accepting eezo and biotics does not mean accepting any and all psychic shenanigans.

But the two go hand in hand. All the races that have what we would term to be psychic or psionic powers - Asari's melding, Protheans psychometry, Drell eidetic memory - are also known for strong biotics. Whereas the races that don't have those things, like Turians and Salarians and Quarians - also tend to be biotically weak.


And I'm saying that the idea that Asari have racial biotic-like abilities that function like psychic powers is not unreasonable in the slightest. It would be MORE unreasonable to think that the prevalence of something that induces biotic powers in individuals would NOT affect their evolution.

That.



Also Morinth but I think we can all agree she was a bad idea.

Morinth proved one thing though, illustrating in-game that asari copulation doesn't need physical snu-snu attached.

The Oni
2013-10-21, 10:35 AM
I was referring to Talya's comment on the last page, Morinth was a neat idea for a villain (or severely ANTI-heroine) but a terrible idea for a love interest! Embrace eternity? More like embrace non-standard game over!

Weiser_Cain
2013-10-21, 08:02 PM
I don't see the problem with sexual fanservice. The real crime was that Liara was the not very interesting and only lesbian romance option in ME.


I think the real crime was building her up as the new shadow broker then just resetting her back to sidekick status.



But that's exactly what they do. Javik got a pretty good reading on Grunt just by being in the same room where he lived.


I'd like a link to this nonsense, please.

Psyren
2013-10-21, 09:49 PM
I'd like a link to this nonsense, please.

u mad? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK6U0ZisDYk) :smalltongue:

Reads Shepard - 5:00
Discusses his ability - 9:33
Reads the room/Grunt - 10:24

Kalmageddon
2013-10-22, 03:20 AM
B
But the two go hand in hand. All the races that have what we would term to be psychic or psionic powers - Asari's melding, Protheans psychometry, Drell eidetic memory - are also known for strong biotics. Whereas the races that don't have those things, like Turians and Salarians and Quarians - also tend to be biotically weak.


Asari's melding= can be explained by eezo, since they are able to manipulate electrical currents in their body they could theoretically "read" them in something they are touching. If melding could be achieved at long range, I would call bs.

Drell eidetic memory= It's not psychic power, it's a real thing. I don't see anything implausible about a race with perfect recall and to have this "power" you don't need to bend or add anything to current scientific understanding of how the brain works.
I also don't remember Drell being particularly gifted in biotics.

Prothean psychometry= totally implausible magical power that can't be handwaved or explained by eezo or biotic powers. How is something tied to electrical impulses and changing the mass of things gonna explain being able to have visions of the past from touching stuff? Even accepting the logic behind biotics and eezo it still remains something totally implausible because there is no internal consistency with the setting.

Weiser_Cain
2013-10-22, 04:04 PM
u mad? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK6U0ZisDYk) :smalltongue:

Reads Shepard - 5:00
Discusses his ability - 9:33
Reads the room/Grunt - 10:24

Not more than usual, why do you ask?