Becoming a Paragon Creature

[Sugashane]

I have a character in my party that wants to add the Paragon template to his character, and as it is a high op game I don' mind, I just don't really know how to go about doing it.

He is a level 18 warblade, and we are looking through Savage Species at the rituals to either transform into a creature, trade XP for the starting ECL of the creature etc.

He is a human, so his races LA is obviously 0, and his 18 levels in Warblade give him an ECL of 18. Looking in the ELH, it says the template for creature under 6 HD is +18, 7-15 HD is +15, and 16+ HD is +12.

So does anyone know how exactly this will work? I appreciate the help.

[tyckspoon]

IMO The most sensible route would be to convert the template into a Monster/Template Class-style progression and just let him start taking levels in Paragon Creature. You could use the Savage Species rituals or similar magical oddity as the reason why he is able to do this (maybe he's attracted the favor of a God of Battle who wants to make him a more perfect warrior or something.) Any method that involves applying the whole template in one shot is probably unworkable - he'll get a ridiculous power spike right now (which may or may not break your game, depending on exactly what high-op means for your group) but in exchange he is basically never going to level up again unless your campaign manages to extend significantly into the Epic.

[Ortesk]

I have a character in my party that wants to add the Paragon template to his character, and as it is a high op game I don' mind, I just don't really know how to go about doing it.

He is a level 18 warblade, and we are looking through Savage Species at the rituals to either transform into a creature, trade XP for the starting ECL of the creature etc.

He is a human, so his races LA is obviously 0, and his 18 levels in Warblade give him an ECL of 18. Looking in the ELH, it says the template for creature under 6 HD is +18, 7-15 HD is +15, and 16+ HD is +12.

So does anyone know how exactly this will work? I appreciate the help.

Paragon is CR+15, No LA given. So by RAW it cant be used. Now since your DM and make up RAW as it suits you, I can say this to help you. I once ran an epic game, a level 20 sorceror, 20 cleric, 20 ranger, 5 monk Paragon, thinking whats the harm right? Well monk decimated all who opposed him with no chance. I was using CR 30 melee creatures from epic level handbook and he could win. But level 15 cleric pown hammered him with holy word. My advice, Make a custom class giving a HD every 2 levels, full BAB saves, and Some ability mods. Maje it 10 levels and umb it down some to cmpensate, or tell him if he sees a cleric run like a mofo

[Sugashane]

Thanks for the replies. Looking at the responses I think I will make a variant for the Human Paragon from UA, and make it an epic prestige class, one of the prerequisites being level 20 to take the class.

Full BAB, Monk Saves, no spell casting progression, and then work in physical ability increases to attributes, speed, etc as he levels up. Won't be as strong as a true paragon template, but for a melee build it will allow for some impressive acts.

Or I can ask him if he wants to wait until he creates a new character and I can build a Savage Species like progression for 20 levels that will be similar to what the Paragon template offers.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Paragon Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)

Its Challenge Rating is Base Creature +15, which is irrelevant unless he's going to be fighting the rest of the party. It has no listed level adjustment, which means it is not suitable for a PC to have. See the following:
Monstrous Conundrums Part 1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)
Monstrous Conundrums Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060411a)
Monstrous Conundrums Part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060418a)
Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928)

That said, if you as the DM are ok with him gaining the template, then assign it a level adjustment and break down its benefits into a gradual progression that he must spend levels to gain. See the Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) article on Gaining a Template Midcampaign (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a), and the example template classes in that archive. Since he's going to be gaining most of it when the rest of the party is epic level, I'd make it not a huge level adjustment but also not a small one. It's a whole world better than Vampire, which is LA +8, so I'd make it at least LA +12. That means divide all the bonuses it grants into a small portion per level for a 12 level template class, which does not improve his BAB, HP, saving throws, skills, etc., as though he's spending each level-up to gain a point of level adjustment.

For example, the +12 Insight and Luck bonuses to AC should each be +1 per level of the template class. The extra +12 hp per HD/level would be +1 per HD at each level fo the template class, and I wouldn't make it give max HP per hit die until the 12th level. The +25 Luck bonus to attack rolls would be +2 per level, with a +3 at the final level. The +20 to damage rolls would be +1 at the 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th level, and +2 at each level in between. The +15 to every ability score would be +1 per ability score per level, with each stat getting a +2 at one level for the first six levels, and each stat getting +2 at two levels for the last six levels. (So a given stat will get five +1's and one +2 at levels 1-6, and four +1's and two +2's at levels 7-12. Only one stat gets a +2 at a given level at 1-6, and only two stats get a +2 at a given level at 7-12.) The +10 Competence bonus on skill checks and +10 Insight bonus to saving throws would likewise be broken down to +1 per level, skipping two levels, and I would break down the natural armor bonus to +2 and +3 at those two levels that the save and skill bonuses skip, which would probably be 6th and 12th. The speed bonus would be base x1.5, x2, x2.5, x3 at probably the 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th levels. The insight bonus to special attacks would be +1 per level, and +2 at the 12th level. The spell like abilities it grants (Greater Dispel Magic, Haste, See Invisibility each 3/day) are a total of 9/day of uses, with a +15 bonus to caster level, so I'd put one of the daily uses of each spell-like ability per level for the 1st-3rd, 5th-7th, and 9th-12th levels, and +1 caster level per level with a +2 at the 4th, 8th, and 12th level. The resistances, damage reduction, spell resistance, and fast healing would be split up over several levels just like everything else, and I'd make the DR scale 5/magic, 10/magic, 5/epic, 10/epic over four levels.

This is definitely not something that he should just be able to pay gold/xp one time to gain the whole thing, it's way too powerful for that, and in most cases it's way too powerful for any PC to ever have.

[Karnith]

Just for reference, the Paragon template is (supposed to be) LA +11, as derived from the "Monsters by Challenge Rating" table on page 156 of the Epic Level Handbook.

It's not listed in the SRD because the ECL/LA information for creatures in the ELH was listed separately from the creature stat blocks, in a section not included in the SRD.

[Natsu Dragneel]

I know this is an old thread, and those who have previously posted probably won't care. This is for those who find it in the future. Paragon Creature is a +18 level Adjustment. You can figure this out of you read the above post, but he/she forgot one thing, it states earlier in the chapter that a monster gets none of it's hit dice or special abilities, except those special abilities naturally attributed to that race. This means that a 1 hit die version of the paragon mind flayer would be an ecl of 26. Mind flayer level adjustment is +7 so removing the one level for the HD it would have to have and the mind flayer level adjustment leaves you with a +18.

[koumpou69]

I know this is an old thread, and those who have previously posted probably won't care. This is for those who find it in the future. Paragon Creature is a +18 level Adjustment. You can figure this out of you read the above post, but he/she forgot one thing, it states earlier in the chapter that a monster gets none of it's hit dice or special abilities, except those special abilities naturally attributed to that race. This means that a 1 hit die version of the paragon mind flayer would be an ecl of 26. Mind flayer level adjustment is +7 so removing the one level for the HD it would have to have and the mind flayer level adjustment leaves you with a +18.

this is clearly wrong, for example the elder titan has an ecl of 70 bcs he has 70hd, another example is the demilich given the fact that you have to be 21hd minimum to become one and the fact that a lich has a level adjustment of +4 we get that the demilich has a lvl adjustment of +8, if you see this things apply to everything else in the monster section that has an ecl, thus the paragon creature has an ecl of +11

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: dead threads are not eligible to be paragons.