The most horrible PRC , with the best fluff

[CyberThread]

What do you feel is the most worthless PRC, mechanics and the like, but has the best fluff?

[Psyren]

Green Star Adept had cool fluff but the execution was godawful.

Defiant should really have been rolled into Ur-Priest or something.

[Karnith]

I am a huge fan of Yathrinshee (necromantic drow servants of Kiaranselee), which is unfortunate because the class is godawful.

[Divayth Fyr]

I always hated how the Arcane Archer requires spellcasting to enter, has one of its main features require spells and doesn't advance spellcasting at all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd say all the dragon prestige classes in the Draconomicon. They're impossible for a PC to qualify for pre-epic, not even worth taking in the epic levels, and any given dragon that a party would face would be better off at a later age category than taking any of those classes.

Then there's the Lightning Warrior...


I am a huge fan of Yathrinshee (necromantic drow servants of Kiaranselee), which is unfortunate because the class is godawful.

Shortly after the WotC ruling that Precocious Apprentice doesn't qualify a character for 'able to cast 2nd level spells' prerequisites, someone came up with the idea to use it to qualify for Yathrinshee early and after three levels of that springboard into Mystic Theurge or True Necromancer. Note that due to Yathrinshee's Necromancy class feature, a Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Yathrinshee 3/ True Necromancer 13 gets a caster level of 30 for Necromancy spells.

[JoshuaZ]

Shortly after the WotC ruling that Precocious Apprentice doesn't qualify a character for 'able to cast 2nd level spells' prerequisites, someone came up with the idea to use it to qualify for Yathrinshee early and after three levels of that springboard into Mystic Theurge or True Necromancer. Note that due to Yathrinshee's Necromancy class feature, a Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Yathrinshee 3/ True Necromancer 13 gets a caster level of 30 for Necromancy spells.

You can still do a baby version of this with cleric 3/wizard 3/Yath 3 and then do the right levels of TN and Mystic Theurge to get builds with insane caster levels, but it ends up still not being quite worth it most of the time.

[Suddo]

The PrC with the capstone of you "ascending" (AKA dying) is pretty cool. It is also often referred to as the worst PrC.

Sorry I can't remember the name.

[Norin]

Not horrible, but still something i find lacking in crunch/power while it has alot of good fluff support:

Bladesinger. :(

[Karnith]

The PrC with the capstone of you "ascending" (AKA dying) is pretty cool. It is also often referred to as the worst PrC.

Sorry I can't remember the name.
It's Risen Martyr, from the Book of Exalted Deeds.


Shortly after the WotC ruling that Precocious Apprentice doesn't qualify a character for 'able to cast 2nd level spells' prerequisites, someone came up with the idea to use it to qualify for Yathrinshee early and after three levels of that springboard into Mystic Theurge or True Necromancer. Note that due to Yathrinshee's Necromancy class feature, a Cleric 3/ Wizard 1/ Yathrinshee 3/ True Necromancer 13 gets a caster level of 30 for Necromancy spells.
I am aware of the tricks that can be performed with Yathrinshee, but they generally require early entry tricks, which in my experience are frequently banned, saddle you with LA+2 if your DM doesn't want to be helpful, and basically require you not to play out your low levels. Using Yathrinshee without all of those things, or God forbid as intended (Drow Cleric 5/Wizard 3/Yathrinshee X), is a good way to make yourself useless fast. And even when the tricks work, you still end up behind on spell levels.

Also, that build doesn't work (barring serious cheese) because of the skill prereqs for True Necromancer and the spellcasting prereqs for Yathrinshee; you can't normally get into either PrC from Cleric 3/Wizard 1.

[Zanos]

The PrC with the capstone of you "ascending" (AKA dying) is pretty cool. It is also often referred to as the worst PrC.

Sorry I can't remember the name.

Risen Martyr from Book of Exalted Deeds? It's pretty hilarious. Finish this PrC, and you get the perk of being removed from the game!

I vote for True Necromancer, though. Mastery of vast necromantic power...except a wizard who doesn't even specialize in necromancy can cast more necromancy than you.

EDIT: Swordsages. :(

[TroubleBrewing]

The Risen Martyr. Yeah, those guys suck.

Personally, I love Shadowdancer fluff, but the requirements are just crippling.

EDIT: For Pelor's sake, a Dvati Swordsage!

[Callin]

Seconding the Bladesinger. It was my most favorite thing back in ADnD, and to see it so bleh in 3.x is just shameful.

[Psyren]

Personally, I love Shadowdancer fluff, but the requirements are just crippling.

For Shadowdancer without the pain, try Umbral Disciple from MoI. It even progresses sneak attack.

[samuraijaques]

Deepstone sentinel from tome of battle.

The redheaded stepchild of ToB prestige classes. It is a melee focused class that gets a medium BaB, the only discipline it can take maneuvers from is stone dragon (EWW), you have to be a dwarf, and its abilities share stone dragons ridiculous requirement of not moving more than 5 ft and being in contact with the ground.

BUT IT'S SO COOL!

you get to be an awesome earth bending warrior tome of battle badass!

I liked the class so much that I convinced my DM to homebrew a version that was actually playable.

[Doughnut Master]

RAGE MAGE.

Mostly for the name.

[tyckspoon]

you get to be an awesome earth bending warrior tome of battle badass!

I liked the class so much that I convinced my DM to homebrew a version that was actually playable.

The funny thing about this is that Deepstone Sentinel basically already was an attempt to make another oft-denigrated prestige class playable.. it's the 'homebrew' maneuver-using version of the Dwarven Defender.

[Scumbaggery]

Acolyte of the Skin, for me.
It's doable, but argh

[Devronq]

I would say black flame zealot, I love the rouge cleric idea but why doesn't they make it as good as the arcane trickster? Give it full casting and the same sneak attack advancement and I'd use it all the time... as is its really bad. Mind you that applies to most less that full casting prc

[Venger]

Acolyte of the Skin, for me.
It's doable, but argh

the thing that makes acolyte particularly worthless is that fiendish skin gives you pretty much all the same abilities for a few thousand gp.

I was going to say acolyte, but I'd probably lean towards master of the unseen hand.

[Blackjackg]

RAGE MAGE.

Mostly for the name.

This was going to be my answer. Not just for the name (although it's awesome), but because raging arcane caster in an important fluff/crunch niche that should be filled with at least one really usable class. But they never bothered making a good version...

[Menzath]

My pick would be Halfing outrider. The fluff makes sense and c'mon there are riding dogs in the game already, but what does the class really do that A fighter or Ranger couldn't?
This, is terrible idea, terrible.

[Kennisiou]

I'm a huge fan of Apostle of the Peace, True Necromancer, and Arcane Archer and they're all pretty much considered completely awful.

I was actually thinking of homebrewing a version of Arcane Archer that's not prestige and has no race requirements that's sort of like a ranged equivalent of the duskblade as a way to make some ranged gishy things happen, but wasn't sure if anyone would care enough to help me with making the spell list work (especially since I've never built or played a gish so I don't really know how I should construct the AA spell list).

Although honestly I'm not totally sure why Apostle of the Peace is so awful (I mean aside from all of the entry feats being giant albatrosses, although you do get the ability to wear magic items for defense while an apostle, so it overcomes the biggest issue of vow of poverty once you finally enter). The ability to just end encounters with a touch seems pretty neat and their spell list isn't total trash. I get that it's not a great class but it doesn't seem as awful as other people think unless I'm missing something. (other than the fact that if you take vow of peace and vow of nonviolence the rest of the table will probably hate you for it)

[Fax Celestis]

Let's see...

Witchborne Binder, Spellsword (really worthless after the first level), Shining Blade of Heironeous, and Elemental Scion of Zilargo all hit my list. Or Thrall of Malcanthet. Whee, let's slowly turn into a succubus! It's Yet Another Transformation Class! Animal Lord could be cool, but really just ends up sucking.

But the one that really tops it for me?

Legendary Dreadnaught. It has no business being epic, and could actually be a very interesting regular PrC. You could probably use it as-is in a non-epic game simply by dropping the prerequisites to BAB +6, Intimidate +8, and Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, and Power Attack. If you're concerned about the crazy +20s, just make them to "double class level".

[Scow2]

My pick would be Halfing outrider. The fluff makes sense and c'mon there are riding dogs in the game already, but what does the class really do that A fighter or Ranger couldn't?
This, is terrible idea, terrible.They make MUCH better mounted warriors than Fighters and Rangers.

[Stux]

This always come up in these threads, but I really don't think Risen Martyr sucks. Yes, the capstone is perma-death, but not really.

First off, you can only take the prestige class if you are dead. Maybe you don't have a way to resurrect yet, this way the character you don't want to lose gets another 10 levels. That is pretty sweet.

Secondly, how many real games actually go past level 16?

Thirdly, Final Ascension doesn't say you can't keep playing your character, it just says you ascend to the higher planes. Sure you can't gain more character levels, but given points 1 and 2 I really don't think it's as big a deal as a people make out.

[navar100]

Shining Blade Of Heironeous

Heirophant

Eldrich Knight

Arcane Archer

Order of the Bow Initiate

Dragon Disciple

Purple Dragon Knight

From 3.0: Candlecaster

[Stux]

You know what? Truenamer. I actually kind of like the fluff. And everyone knows it sucks!

[Keneth]

Eldrich Knight

Wut? It's boring, but it's hardly horrible. :smallconfused:

[Lucid]

This always come up in these threads, but I really don't think Risen Martyr sucks. Yes, the capstone is perma-death, but not really.

First off, you can only take the prestige class if you are dead. Maybe you don't have a way to resurrect yet, this way the character you don't want to lose gets another 10 levels. That is pretty sweet.

Secondly, how many real games actually go past level 16?

Thirdly, Final Ascension doesn't say you can't keep playing your character, it just says you ascend to the higher planes. Sure you can't gain more character levels, but given points 1 and 2 I really don't think it's as big a deal as a people make out.It's not just the perma-death.
It's a class you're stuck in, with poor BAB, 2+int skills from a limited list, and some minor defensive abilities. You can forget about meaningfully continuing your previous path, whatever it was.
It's like your deity is saying, "Your work on this earth isn't done, but from now on you'll suck at your job."

[Psyren]

You know what? Truenamer. I actually kind of like the fluff. And everyone knows it sucks!

Truenamer is a base class :smalltongue:

[gorfnab]

My pick would be Halfing outrider. The fluff makes sense and c'mon there are riding dogs in the game already, but what does the class really do that A fighter or Ranger couldn't?
This, is terrible idea, terrible.
Basic Supermount

LG Strongheart Halfling
1. Paladin - Mounted Combat, Track
2. Paladin
3. Paladin - Skill Focus: Handle Animal (prereq for Beast Master)
4. Paladin
5. Paladin
6. Beastmaster - Devoted Tracker
7. Beastmaster
8. Wild Plains Outrider
9. Wild Plains Outrider - Mounted Archery
10. Wild Plains Outrider
11. Halfling Outrider
12. Halfling Outrider - Natural Bond
13. Halfling Outrider
14. Halfling Outrider
15. Halfling Outrider - Ride By Attack (or some other feat)
16. Halfling Outrider
17. Halfling Outrider
18. Halfling Outrider - Spirited Charge (or some other feat)
19. Halfling Outrider
20. Halfling Outrider

At 20th Level
Special Mount: 18th level Paladin = Paladin 5 + Wild Plains 3 + Half-Out 10
Animal Companion: 18th level Druid = Beast Master 5 + Natural Bond 3 + Half-Out 10

[Zanos]

This always come up in these threads, but I really don't think Risen Martyr sucks. Yes, the capstone is perma-death, but not really.

First off, you can only take the prestige class if you are dead. Maybe you don't have a way to resurrect yet, this way the character you don't want to lose gets another 10 levels. That is pretty sweet.

Secondly, how many real games actually go past level 16?

Thirdly, Final Ascension doesn't say you can't keep playing your character, it just says you ascend to the higher planes. Sure you can't gain more character levels, but given points 1 and 2 I really don't think it's as big a deal as a people make out.
Technically you could just planeshift back anyway. All it says that happens is that your body and soul are taken into the upper planes, so yeah. Planeshift back to the material. Woo.

The RAI seems to be that you stay there, though.

[Captnq]

This always come up in these threads, but I really
Secondly, how many real games actually go past level 16?


I've been running a game for 4 years now and I'm reaching session 200 soon. Started at level 1 and the players crossed 35th level last month. It hasn't quite reached Fireball Visible From Space yet, but the campaign has flirted with exploding on many an occasion.

[Stux]

Technically you could just planeshift back anyway. All it says that happens is that your body and soul are taken into the upper planes, so yeah. Planeshift back to the material. Woo.

The RAI seems to be that you stay there, though.

It is debatable, as is all RAI, but you are probably right.

Out of interest though, would any of you if DMing actually enforce that? As in at whatever random point in an adventure someone completed the prestige class at, regardless of what was currently happening, would you say 'ok, hand in your character sheet' the moment they gained enough experience? Or would you at least wait for the campaign arc you were in to complete as more appropriate moment to trigger the ascension?

[CyberThread]

You know what? Truenamer. I actually kind of like the fluff. And everyone knows it sucks!



http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35193284.jpg

[Stux]

Haha, yes, ok, I broke the rules!

No reason we can't talk about base classes too... actually no, then we'd just get pages and pages of arguing about monks.

[Kennisiou]

Haha, yes, ok, I broke the rules!

No reason we can't talk about base classes too... actually no, then we'd just get pages and pages of arguing about monks.

I'm kind of surprised most of the monk PrCs haven't been discussed yet. It feels like the best of them aren't very cool (ooooh sacred fist, how neat) and the coolest of them aren't very good (but at least most are better than monk).

[Arbane]

Haha, yes, ok, I broke the rules!

No reason we can't talk about base classes too... actually no, then we'd just get pages and pages of arguing about monks.

I was going to say the Mountebank, then.
IIRC, it has the same problem as the Risen Martyr, except you go to hell. As someone here joked, "Mountebank 19/Commoner 1 is better than Mountebank 20".

From Pathfinder, there's the Monk of the Healing Hand archetype, whose ULTIMATE POWER is to... self-destruct. Yes, they can resurrect multiple people in the process, but any Cleric could do that by level 13, just not as fast!

Anyway, back to PrCs, I'll nominate Pathfinder's Rage Prophet. A character who mixes an Oracle's spontaneous divine magic with a Barbarian's totemistic Rage Powers sounds like a great idea, but the actual class is a huge letdown. They were so afraid it would be too powerful, so they nerfed it too far instead.

[Amphetryon]

Of those not listed thus far, I'd pick Geomancer. The leyline-based fluff is really interesting, but the execution is meh.

[ddude987]

I'm kind of surprised most of the monk PrCs haven't been discussed yet. It feels like the best of them aren't very cool (ooooh sacred fist, how neat) and the coolest of them aren't very good (but at least most are better than monk).

Full divine casting and advancing monk is cool... oh wait cool flavor, right, that's a thing.

[Stux]

I like Sacred Fist a lot. The concept I think is really solid. It all comes down to the text vs. table on its spell progression though.

In theory text wins and it fully advances casting, which makes it a pretty decent class mechanically. However in my experience it is usually table that the DM goes with. Partly due to Neverwinter Nights 2, which included the prestige class with the missing levels.

[123456789blaaa]

Let's see...

Witchborne Binder, Spellsword (really worthless after the first level), Shining Blade of Heironeous, and Elemental Scion of Zilargo all hit my list. Or Thrall of Malcanthet. Whee, let's slowly turn into a succubus! It's Yet Another Transformation Class! Animal Lord could be cool, but really just ends up sucking.

But the one that really tops it for me?

Legendary Dreadnaught. It has no business being epic, and could actually be a very interesting regular PrC. You could probably use it as-is in a non-epic game simply by dropping the prerequisites to BAB +6, Intimidate +8, and Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, and Power Attack. If you're concerned about the crazy +20s, just make them to "double class level".

While I agree with the rest of your choices, I don't get the bolded one. Why is the ESoZ so bad? It's no Abjurant Champion but the abilities seem unique, mechanically interesting, and decently powerful IMO.

[ddude987]

I like Sacred Fist a lot. The concept I think is really solid. It all comes down to the text vs. table on its spell progression though.

In theory text wins and it fully advances casting, which makes it a pretty decent class mechanically. However in my experience it is usually table that the DM goes with. Partly due to Neverwinter Nights 2, which included the prestige class with the missing levels.

Over the course of multiple DMs I've never had one say table trumps text. Probably because its easier to follow written rules than have to append everything. Though now I am wondering if programs, like heroforge, have this class coded in as full spellcasting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Enlightened Spirit, the poor design just makes it unplayable. However on a gestalt character you can take Warlock levels with it and everything both classes give you will stack. So normally it's terrible and worthless mechanically, but on a gestalt character it's arguably the best class a Warlock can take.

Master Transmogrifist if it hasn't been mentioned yet. Good idea, mix traits of the forms you can assume, but the caster level loss is just not worth what you get out of it.

Dragon Disciple as well, though dipping a few levels at the end of a Suel Arcanamach build is viable for bonus spell slots of your highest level spells.

[123456789blaaa]

Enlightened Spirit, the poor design just makes it unplayable. However on a gestalt character you can take Warlock levels with it and everything both classes give you will stack. So normally it's terrible and worthless mechanically, but on a gestalt character it's arguably the best class a Warlock can take.

Master Transmogrifist if it hasn't been mentioned yet. Good idea, mix traits of the forms you can assume, but the caster level loss is just not worth what you get out of it.

Dragon Disciple as well, though dipping a few levels at the end of a Suel Arcanamach build is viable for bonus spell slots of your highest level spells.

MS is lackluster for full casters but seems decent for classes or PRC's that grant limited casting. I once saw a Crusader/Suel Arcanamach/MS build that looked pretty nice.

[Lucid]

It is debatable, as is all RAI, but you are probably right.

Out of interest though, would any of you if DMing actually enforce that? As in at whatever random point in an adventure someone completed the prestige class at, regardless of what was currently happening, would you say 'ok, hand in your character sheet' the moment they gained enough experience? Or would you at least wait for the campaign arc you were in to complete as more appropriate moment to trigger the ascension? I can't see myself enforcing that, no. It should be a roleplaying moment where the character gets to say goodbye to their allies before ascending.

The entire concept would work far better as a template instead of a class.

I think we can also nominate most of the Iron Chef ingredients.

[Fax Celestis]

While I agree with the rest of your choices, I don't get the bolded one. Why is the ESoZ so bad? It's no Abjurant Champion but the abilities seem unique, mechanically interesting, and decently powerful IMO.

It gets terrible skills, mediocre HD, mediocre BAB, and medoicre saves. It has basically no role, not even an implied one by its class features, and half of its class features boil down to "I make myself weaker to get a pet for a little while." It pays lip service to the grafting system in the book, but doesn't actually base any of its features meaningfully off of grafts.

It could have been so much cooler, but it isn't.

[limejuicepowder]

My top pick for this category (that I can think of at this particular moment) is Dread Commando. Love the fluff, and I one time while AFB thought up a character that was going to use this class. But then I looked at the class and realized it was an utter impossibility. This class stinks - terrible prereqs, and half of it's "abilities" are natural to dwarves.

It also might just be my imagination, but WotC got on a sudden strike fix and gave all of the sneaky classes this awful, nerfed version of sneak attack. Like sneak attack wasn't niche enough already.

[Nettlekid]

Have we mentioned Lifedrinker yet? Because I think that might be one of the outright worst PrCs in the game. The idea is amazingly cool: You're a vampire spellcaster who drains blood and life energy, and then uses that energy to power up the nature of your spells. It's like sacrificial powerups on the go. One might think of it as a more race-and-caster-specific counterpart to the Soul Eater, which is also very cool and can be made into a pretty big threat as a level draining blender.

But the Lifedrinker sucks. And not just blood. For one, it doesn't progress casting. It is all about fueling spells, and it doesn't progress casting. Entry requirements have 6 rank skills, so you can enter it on your 4th level, quite early. If you used Bloodline Shenanigans, you could get it a bit early, which you'd have to do in order to take all 10 levels pre-Epic. Because you do have to be a vampire, and assuming you aren't using some partially-taken vampire template class, that means a +8 LA. So, what you're left with is 8 lost levels from the template, 10 levels without spellcasting, which means you have a grand total of TWO LEVELS IN A CASTING CLASS. I mean, what?! How can you possibly make this passable?

[Venger]

Apostle of the Peace
apostle of peace is a disgustingly powerful class. it's horrible, all right, but not because it's mechanically weak.


Thrall of Malcanthet.

where is this class? I've never heard of it before.

[Fax Celestis]

where is this class? I've never heard of it before.

Dragon #353.

[unseenmage]

Gnome Artificer prestige class. Classic fluff but the mechanics are actually worse than just taking the Item Creation Feats. Which is very very sad.

[jedipilot24]

Virtually all the Prestige Classes from the Book of Vile Darkness: Cool fluff all around, really crappy implementations. Disciple of Mephistopheles is perhaps the worst offender. It's the original Hellfire Warlock. No spellcasting progression but you can get it without starting as a spellcaster; but doing that makes one of the 1st level abilities worthless.
Demonologist is almost as bad. A straight Wizard does everything it can do and more.

[Bloodgruve]

C'mon guys, Montebank and Risen Martyr are the only two classes that win can win the game...

Joking aside, I always thought Fochlucan Lyrist was interesting but after trying to build one its just a trap. Awesome PRC, terrible prereq's, disappointing. PRC isn't bad but getting there is the problem.

Blood~

[RandomLunatic]

Pyrokineticist is this for me. "Set things on fire with my mind? Sign me up!"

...Then you look at the class. The pre-reqs are not awful, except for the 8 ranks of Concentration, which is difficult without a casting or manifesting class. But the PK has no spell or manifesting progression. It makes the fighter look like a skill god, with 2+INT skills and 6 class skills. That leaves melee, except d8 HD and 3/4ths BaB are really not enough.

That leaves the class features, most of which unsurprisingly revolve around inflicting fire damage, which is the most commonly resisted element. The ones that are not are hampered by extremely limited usage (Nimbus and Conflagration are 1/Day, Firewalk depletes you very limited PP pool, and Heat Death is once every other round at best) and poor DC scaling (not helped by being tied to what is most likely your dump stat).

[Tengu_temp]

I always saw Risen Martyr as a superior alternative to losing the character forever.


Wut? It's boring, but it's hardly horrible. :smallconfused:

Eldritch Knight gives your mage a slightly better hit die and full BAB in exchange for two caster levels (one to qualify for this class, one on first level). Not a worthwhile trade. It also offers no synergy between magic and fighting, unlike all the actually good gish classes.

[Inferno]

Blighter and Thunder guide are on the top of the list for me.
Blighter might not be nearly as bad if the requirements weren't down right cruel.
And Thunder guide gives what should mostly just be little fluff bonuses over the course of 10 levels. The fluff is cool and all, but the rest is a mess.

[FearlessGnome]

Of those not listed thus far, I'd pick Geomancer. The leyline-based fluff is really interesting, but the execution is meh.
In a Gestalt game, my naturey Sorcerer//Druid got along really well with the fluff, and the class mechanics worked much better than they would have in non-Gestalt.


Also, Tainted Scholar. Not a weak class with interesting fluff, but certainly a hard to play class with interesting fluff.

[Humble Master]

Dragon Disciple is a very bad PrC. It's a casting class, that doesn't advance casting for 10 levels and instead gives you a bunch of physical stat buffs and other crud.

But, you are turning into a Dragon. A DRAGON!

It was just such a cool concept to me. A Sorcerer who delved into their internal power to become more like a dragon.

[Craft (Cheese)]

apostle of peace is a disgustingly powerful class. it's horrible, all right, but not because it's mechanically weak.

It lets you get a small selection of 9th-level spells... 1 ECL earlier than a straight Cleric would, assuming no early-entry cheese. In exchange, you have to take crippling vow of X feats. That said, your spell list includes Gate and Miracle, so while it's still pretty powerful in absolute terms I'd almost always rather be a Cleric 16 than a Something 7/Apostle of Peace 9.

[Libertad]

For me, the Blighter is incredibly underpowered. Their spell progression is far behind other primary casters, their Deforestation power requires them to be in lush forest-like regions in order to prepare spells, and there's nothing they can do that a Druid or Necromancer can't do better.

But the fluff is awesome. You're a former Druid dedicated to perverting the natural order with unholy flames and bringing the dead back to life. What the Blackguard is to Paladins, Blighters are to Druids.

[Craft (Cheese)]

There should have at least been a blackguard-esque benefit that scales with your ex-druid levels so that they aren't completely dead levels.

[mabriss lethe]

Pyrokineticist is this for me. "Set things on fire with my mind? Sign me up!"

...Then you look at the class. The pre-reqs are not awful, except for the 8 ranks of Concentration, which is difficult without a casting or manifesting class. But the PK has no spell or manifesting progression. It makes the fighter look like a skill god, with 2+INT skills and 6 class skills. That leaves melee, except d8 HD and 3/4ths BaB are really not enough.

That leaves the class features, most of which unsurprisingly revolve around inflicting fire damage, which is the most commonly resisted element. The ones that are not are hampered by extremely limited usage (Nimbus and Conflagration are 1/Day, Firewalk depletes you very limited PP pool, and Heat Death is once every other round at best) and poor DC scaling (not helped by being tied to what is most likely your dump stat).

Actually... It's not quite as bad as all that. Sure, it's not a fantastic PrC, but it isn't completely horrible, as you can do some interesting things with it. I think it was actually meant to be the proto-soulbow. Soulknives can enter it rather easily and get a good bit of power from the deal without the drawbacks that other psionic classes suffer. It's actually a decent prc for lower power level games.

-Fire lash functions much like a weapon and can benefit from any feat that a whip could benefit from, which opens up all sorts of shenanigans such as Power attack or Master of Poisons(a favorite of mine, especially in conjunction with a Con damaging poison and Heat Death). It won't be an ubercharger, but you can do some respectable damage. Concerning the 3/4 BAB issue: Remember, it's an iterative touch attack. You should be hitting with almost every attack regardless.

-Bolt of Fire does damage on par with a warlock. (Yes, everything is fire based and it's a common resistance, but it will only be a real hassle if they have fire immunity.)

-Even at every other round, Heat death can be a pretty good save or die with only a little optimization. It's spammable to a certain degree. Coupling Ability Focus and a decent Cloak of Charisma is enough to boost even a mediocre stat to the realm of respectable(even if it's not stellar), especially when used in conjunction with the untyped bonus from Nimbus.

In my opinion, the one thing that would really bring up the power level of the class would be access to an effect similar to the Searing Spell Metamagic from Sandstorm.

[ben-zayb]

Assassin. Master of Nine. Need I say more?

Alright. Concept wise:
Drunken Master
Reaping Mauler
Dirgesinger
(Combat) Trapsmith
Mindbender
OoTB initiate
Arcane Trickster
Ghost-Faced Killer
Blighter
Mindspy
Harper Agent
Vigilante
Pyrokineticist
Tempest
Warpriest

It's like a false advertisement where they have this awesome theme, but fails to deliver mechanically

[Telok]

Dragon Disciple is a very bad PrC. It's a casting class, that doesn't advance casting for 10 levels and instead gives you a bunch of physical stat buffs and other crud.

Ok, this is such a common misconception that I have to speak out. Dragon Disciple is not a PrC for spellcasters. It is a PrC for tier 4 and 5 martial types.

This is for when your fighter gets to level 6 and realizes that just hitting stuff with a stick won't be enough but doesn't want to give up melee combat. So he sucks down a level of sorcerer, buys some twilight mithril armor, and gets combat boosts on top of a wee bit of casting.

[CyberThread]

except the part that says 8 levels of arcane skills.....


it sub-sub optimal melee prc

[CIDE]

Ok, this is such a common misconception that I have to speak out. Dragon Disciple is not a PrC for spellcasters. It is a PrC for tier 4 and 5 martial types.

This is for when your fighter gets to level 6 and realizes that just hitting stuff with a stick won't be enough but doesn't want to give up melee combat. So he sucks down a level of sorcerer, buys some twilight mithril armor, and gets combat boosts on top of a wee bit of casting.

No, it was pretty clearly written as a Sorc PrC.


Anyway, my choice for cool fluffy PrC's that don't really perform? Beast Heart Adept.

[Aliek]

Not as horrible as some, but surely worse than the base character, I can't help but love the fluff of a Windwright captain(Explorer's Handbook 70, Eberron). You get a friggin' airship, while also being an incredible pilot.

It's almost like you're Setzer from FFVI, I still yearn for a bard/windwright captain/swiftblade "gotta go fast" airship captain virtuoso.

[tyckspoon]

except the part that says 8 levels of arcane skills.....


it sub-sub optimal melee prc

It's not terrible, especially in the context of Core options. Consider it - you can look forward to taking five more feats with the back half of Fighter (this kinda loses its appeal when your best option is taking Weapon Specialization for a third kind of weapon), you can get crappy spellcasting from Paladin or Ranger, or Trap Sense and bad DR from Barbarian.. or you can take any of them for a dip into Bard to pick up the Draconic language and most of the Knowledge ranks and get Natural Armor, Wings, some natural weapons, Blindsense, a hefty bump to Strength, an energy immunity, and a handful of other minor benefits. It's a pretty good deal for a Core Only situation.

[Allanimal]

I always thought Alienist sounded cool, but never could get over the WIS penalties and other penalties just didn't seem to outweigh then advantages. And the capstone isn't too hot. If I transform info some crazy creature, I want more than a silly tentacle and ineffective DR!

[Scow2]

It's not terrible, especially in the context of Core options. Consider it - you can look forward to taking five more feats with the back half of Fighter (this kinda loses its appeal when your best option is taking Weapon Specialization for a third kind of weapon), you can get crappy spellcasting from Paladin or Ranger, or Trap Sense and bad DR from Barbarian.. or you can take any of them for a dip into Bard to pick up the Draconic language and most of the Knowledge ranks and get Natural Armor, Wings, some natural weapons, Blindsense, a hefty bump to Strength, an energy immunity, and a handful of other minor benefits. It's a pretty good deal for a Core Only situation.It may be decent for martial characters that dips into spellcasting, but it's clearly NOT designed for them.

[CIDE]

What's that one Tarrasque based PrC from Dragon Magazaine? horribly designed and super weak but seems pretty cool.

[Venger]

I always thought Alienist sounded cool, but never could get over the WIS penalties and other penalties just didn't seem to outweigh then advantages. And the capstone isn't too hot. If I transform info some crazy creature, I want more than a silly tentacle and ineffective DR!

just take keen intellect at 1 and key your will saves off int. now you have no reason to care about wis at all. dump it straight from the beginning.

outsider type is pretty neato for alter self/polymorph stuffs even if the dr only helps against meat monsters (which as a d4dood you have no business tussling with)

[bekeleven]

My top pick for this category (that I can think of at this particular moment) is Dread Commando. Love the fluff, and I one time while AFB thought up a character that was going to use this class. But then I looked at the class and realized it was an utter impossibility. This class stinks - terrible prereqs, and half of it's "abilities" are natural to dwarves.

It also might just be my imagination, but WotC got on a sudden strike fix and gave all of the sneaky classes this awful, nerfed version of sneak attack. Like sneak attack wasn't niche enough already.
3D6 Sudden Strike, +5 Competence to initiative as an aura, no penalty to stealth at normal speed, -4 ACP.


half of it's "abilities" are natural to dwarves.
:smallconfused:

[CyberThread]

dwarves get all those, if they take dread commando :P

[3Power]

Dragon Disciple is a very bad PrC. It's a casting class, that doesn't advance casting for 10 levels and instead gives you a bunch of physical stat buffs and other crud.

But, you are turning into a Dragon. A DRAGON!

It was just such a cool concept to me. A Sorcerer who delved into their internal power to become more like a dragon.

The trick to Dragon Disciple is to be human, grab able learner as a feat and take only one level in sorcerer, picking spells without somatic components. (Feather Fall and True Strike.) Then, start taking levels in melee classes, enter the prestige class, grab half-dragon paragon levels on your way out, and bam.

When I fooled around with it the other day I had:

Sorcerer 1 (Non somatic 0/1 level spells, plus a few utility
Rogue 1 (Ability to search/disable DC 20 traps, max search/disable device via able learner. Sneak attack)
Barbarian 2 (Rage and uncanny dodge)
Ranger 1 (Track, max survival via able learner. Favored enemy, Animal Empathy)
Dragon Disciple 10 (the meat)
Half Dragon Paragon 3 (extra).
Fighter 2 (2 bonus feats)

And from there on you can advance Dragon Disciple as an epic class or go barbarian.

[ArcturusV]

I always had a soft spot for the Maho-Bujin. I mean... fluff wise as it's presented in the books (Not being a hardcore Lot5 fan myself), it's this guy who finally succumbed to the taint, probably because he's something like a Crab Ranger who fights against the forces of evil that spawn the taint constantly and exposure to it finally overcomes him. He goes on an insane pilgrimage to the mouth of hell, literally. Walking until his feet literally fall off without stop, raving like a lunatic the entire time about paranoid delusions and pure hatred. Killing anyone in his way, marching on a straight path to hell. Yes. Where, if he survives all the demons, samurai, etc, in the way, he is reborn into a creature of pure foul energies. A lieutenant in the army of darkness he had once fought, and powerful avatar of discord.

Sadly the PrC itself is full of dead levels (Though holds the record as I think the only WotC PrC I've seen that you can enter into at level 2 without any shenanigans what so ever), and is basically on even keel with a Fighter, trading out bonus feats for a few neat, but limited, tricks (Like extra attacks on +3 BAB instead of +5).

[Xuldarinar]

No, it was pretty clearly written as a Sorc PrC.


Anyway, my choice for cool fluffy PrC's that don't really perform? Beast Heart Adept.

No. It is clearly written as a Sorc-dip PrC. In the section prior to it listing it's Hit Die, which is a d12 I might add, it says: "Most are barbarians, fighters, or rangers who have dabbled as sorcerers or bards. Occasionally, a serious spell caster explores the path to further a goal of finding out more about his draconic heritage, though at the expense of most of his arcane studies.-" This being the intention for it's use. It is a poor casting PrC in part because… It is not a casting PrC.

What I think is one of the more useful approaches to entry is, while using core: Bard 1/Paladin 4

If you don't mind using variants, a dip in stalwart battle sorcerer for a martial character wouldn't be an issue (1d8 + 2 hp, proficiencies, weapon focus, and a hint of spellcasting tossed in), best done at 1st level.

[Xerxus]

Dwarven Defender, the oldest offender in the book. It's supposed to be the ultimate tank but fails miserably unless your DM plays your enemies inanely.

[Narren]

The Knight of Solamnia prestige classes from Dragonlance. Having to take certain levels of the earlier classes and mix a small amount of divine magic in when the vast majority of knights from the material weren't divine casters was bizarre. And the "fix" didn't really help that much.

[123456789blaaa]

Assassin. Master of Nine. Need I say more?

Alright. Concept wise:
Drunken Master
Reaping Mauler
Dirgesinger
(Combat) Trapsmith
Mindbender
OoTB initiate
Arcane Trickster
Ghost-Faced Killer
Blighter
Mindspy
Harper Agent
Vigilante
Pyrokineticist
Tempest
Warpriest

It's like a false advertisement where they have this awesome theme, but fails to deliver mechanically

Asssasin is bad? :smallconfused:. I've seen it used a fair amount of times before. Seems like a good gish-in-a-can.

Trapsmiths can be pretty nice. I recommend checking out the Uncanny Trapsmith (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3413191) for a great example of this.

[Krazzman]

The first time I saw Truenamer mentioned here I thought:

"Yay Truenamer! So bad it has gotten Prestige..."

Ok sorry for the pun.

PF's Assassin. Not even close to the 3.5 counterpart.
I always disliked True Necromancer and such... mainly because we had 3 different camps in our old group: indifferent, Cleric is best or Wizard is best.

Now imagine yeah awesome UA's Necromancer variant I take this and then look up prestige classes and you go WHAT!? at the sight of most of them...

Stormlord (the one from faerun) cool concept in my eyes but man does the god-stuff suck.

Walker in the wastes. But only because of the entry requirements to cast some spells divinely...

[TripleD]

Though holds the record as I think the only WotC PrC I've seen that you can enter into at level 2 without any shenanigans what so ever

I might be remembering this wrong, but I think you can enter "Survivor" from "Savage Species" at level 2 as well. Although that is a 3.0 thing, so I'm not sure if it counts.

[Karnith]

I might be remembering this wrong, but I think you can enter "Survivor" from "Savage Species" at level 2 as well. Although that is a 3.0 thing, so I'm not sure if it counts.
You can enter Survivor from Commoner 1. Not generally a very good idea, but certainly possible.

[Souhiro]

This always come up in these threads, but I really don't think Risen Martyr sucks. Yes, the capstone is perma-death, but not really.

First off, you can only take the prestige class if you are dead. Maybe you don't have a way to resurrect yet, this way the character you don't want to lose gets another 10 levels. That is pretty sweet.

Secondly, how many real games actually go past level 16?

Thirdly, Final Ascension doesn't say you can't keep playing your character, it just says you ascend to the higher planes. Sure you can't gain more character levels, but given points 1 and 2 I really don't think it's as big a deal as a people make out.

You will see the problem with Risen Martyrs comparing with Tier classes. You only have to ask yourself: Which are their purpose in the game? They get D12 Hit Dices, but since they don't have a CON bonus, they won't have too much HP.
They get bonus CHA, but don't get any special abitily that could put to a good use.
You CANNOT do an evil thing. Thing about those situations where paladins are forced to do evil things, to kill one to save thousands. A paladin would suffer and need to seek for atonement, but Risen Martyr would PERMA-DIE.
They aren't good fighters, nor good casters, nor ANYTHING.

[20percentcooler]

Actually had a conversation about this, I love Blighters and OMG blackflame zealots and ahhh Shadowsun ninja. But I personally am willing to play any of these, not because they are good, because I am trying to get back to the Roleplaying roots of D&D, having grown bored with endless optimization

[GolemsVoice]

I feel like people misrepresent the Risen Martyr. The class is not supposed to be a long-term addition to your character, its supposed to be somebody who died doing his god's work, and has now been granted a limited time back among the living to fullfil some purpose. After he has done that, he ascends again. Anybody who goes into that class and doesn't know this is pretty foolish, in my opinion. The class does exactly what it is designed to do, and it advertises this right away.

[Lucid]

I feel like people misrepresent the Risen Martyr. The class is not supposed to be a long-term addition to your character, its supposed to be somebody who died doing his god's work, and has now been granted a limited time back among the living to fullfil some purpose. After he has done that, he ascends again. Anybody who goes into that class and doesn't know this is pretty foolish, in my opinion. The class does exactly what it is designed to do, and it advertises this right away.Yeah, but as I've mentioned, you're going to be too weak to adequately fulfill that purpose.
And I wouldn't really call 10 levels not a long term addition. I've played in enough campaigns that were finished before completing a regular prestige class.

Also I have to agree with the mention of Walker in the Waste, maybe not the most horrible, but several of it's abilities are pretty poorly defined.

[GolemsVoice]

Yeah, but as I've mentioned, you're going to be too weak to adequately fulfill that purpose.
And I wouldn't really call 10 levels not a long term addition. I've played in enough campaigns that were finished before completing a regular prestige class.

That's another thing, and might be quite true (and sad) but many people focusl out the ascension thing .
Long term addition was probably a poor choice of words, I meant to say that the PrC is not meant to make your character more powerful forever and for all purposes, it's meant to empower the character until the thing the martyr was revived for is done. The fact that it faisl to do that is tragic, of course.

[nedz]

Stormlord (the one from faerun) cool concept in my eyes but man does the god-stuff suck.

I built one of these on a Mystic Ranger once, it wasn't awful. The feat tax is annoying however.

[PraxisVetli]

Assassin. Master of Nine. Need I say more?

Alright. Concept wise:
Drunken Master
Reaping Mauler
Dirgesinger
(Combat) Trapsmith
Mindbender
OoTB initiate
Arcane Trickster
Ghost Faced Killer
Blighter
Mindspy
Harper Agent
Vigilante
Pyrokineticist
Tempest
Warpriest

It's like a false advertisement where they have this awesome theme, but fails to deliver mechanically
I contest Vigilante though.
Not the best class, but such a nice, utilitarian spell list. Its nice to have on the side.

[Xuldarinar]

Shadowsmith. I love the flavor of shadow magic, I like the flavor on soul knives, I do not like the execution on this PrC. I felt it would have been served better by some like like "These levels progress mysteries. If you don't have any, we will give you some."

Not certain as to if either of these are bad but I do enjoy their fluff/flavor: Corrupt Avenger and Death Delver

I love dirgesinger, but the lack of casting advancement turns a lot of people away. That and shadowsmith together inspired a PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287019) of mine

Same book: Death's Chosen doesn't impress me, though thematically could be fun. Not a fan of that alignment requirement though.. True Necromancer is in a similar boat.

The thrall and disciple PrCs of BoVD. I've even made a couple of my (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308376) own (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298006).

Alienist, I've always enjoyed a lot of the fluff about the far-realm. I just wish the execution was better. It was among the things that inspired me to make the Alloprax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16213514) (Initially called the Pharin).

Demonbinder, Fiendbinder, neither i've heard great reception on but they can provide some interesting flavor.

[ArcturusV]

Course, as a DM there are also the PrCs I've wanted to see players take, even prepped hooks for and such, but they never did because it was suboptimal in their minds (Or didn't fit character concept). One that always surprised me? I could never find a Player who wanted to take Bear Warrior. Seriously, never could. Dunno what it was about "Transform into a dire bear and wreck face" that didn't call out to them like it did me... but it just never happened. So I have a notebook full of plothooks for Bear Warriors, PrC entry angles, etc, somewhere in a box that never got used.

Any sort of Caster PrC with any level loss of course. I've wanted to see Shapechangers, Stormcallers, etc, in games. And I really liked the idea of it.. but... eh. No. Not going to see it. Not that it surprises me in the least to be honest. But still disappointing.

[CIDE]

Course, as a DM there are also the PrCs I've wanted to see players take, even prepped hooks for and such, but they never did because it was suboptimal in their minds (Or didn't fit character concept). One that always surprised me? I could never find a Player who wanted to take Bear Warrior. Seriously, never could. Dunno what it was about "Transform into a dire bear and wreck face" that didn't call out to them like it did me... but it just never happened. So I have a notebook full of plothooks for Bear Warriors, PrC entry angles, etc, somewhere in a box that never got used.

Any sort of Caster PrC with any level loss of course. I've wanted to see Shapechangers, Stormcallers, etc, in games. And I really liked the idea of it.. but... eh. No. Not going to see it. Not that it surprises me in the least to be honest. But still disappointing.

I have always wanted to play a Bear Warrior! Just any time a game comes up the character I play to fill a role isn't the right role for a face-raping-eye-gouging-super-bear Barbarian. Or the campaign just...doesn't fit the character type. Always wanted to mix it with Fist of the Forest and everything.

[Bronk]

My biggest problem with the Dragon Disciple is that the capstone at level ten doesn't just say "you now become a half dragon, having gained all of the abilities granted by the half-dragon template". Instead, it says the DD 'takes on the half-dragon template'. Without a house rule, you gain all the template abilities again, as well as the level adjustment.

[PraxisVetli]

My biggest problem with the Dragon Disciple is that the capstone at level ten doesn't just say "you now become a half dragon, having gained all of the abilities granted by the half-dragon template". Instead, it says the DD 'takes on the half-dragon template'. Without a house rule, you gain all the template abilities again, as well as the level adjustment.

That's lame. I imagine most DM's overrule that...right?

[Amphetryon]

That's lame. I imagine most DM's overrule that...right?

Most DM's (that I've seen) don't read it that way to begin with. Whether you call that a house-rule on their part or not is up to you.

The one they DO usually house-rule away is Schrodinger's Apotheosis, where the DD is stuck in an infinite "don't qualify/qualify" loop based on specific qualification rules in CWar.