M&M - Limits of Arrays

[Quellian-dyrae]

In favor of not hijacking this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16223933), and because this seems like a discussion worth having on its face...


Electrical Manipulation: Damage 6 (Ranged, Multiattack, Accurate 2, Extended Range). (21 PP)

Adamantium Enhancements: Enhanced Strength 6 (Permanent, Innate), Strength Effect is (Penetrating, Accurate 2). (1 PP)

That would make him modestly super-strong (but only when not channeling electricity!), the adamantium claws are accounted for in the Penetrating damage, and now he can fire multiple blasts of electricity to hit multiple guys or deal more damage to a single guy, per the Multiattack Extra.


While Quellian-dyrae's advice is all rules-legal, arrays (sets of Alternate Effects) do generally require some sort of thematic unity. If your "claws" are just electrical projections, having them be an alternate effect of your lightning bolt power is fine. But if they're distinct, then putting them together is kind of odd-- I'd probably reject it.


This is true. Myself, I love the array system and use it extensively (it would probably not be unfair to say, I overuse it to at least some degree). That being said, if you're going to restrict arrays, I would advise doing it based on effects, not descriptors.

It just seems odd to me that "character with adamantine claws and lightning blasts" should have to pay substantially more PP than "character with shocking grasp and lightning blasts" when both have the same mechanical functionality.

Meanwhile, someone with a broad descriptor like telekinesis can easily fit several powers (a variety of offensive powers, movement powers like Flight and Leaping, tactical powers like Create and Move Object, etc) into the same array.

Basically, it's a good idea for a GM to impose some limits onto arrays. But in my opinion, the default suggestion for how to do it (power fluff) is a terrible system.


On the other hand, the character with claws and lightning wants two separate power sets, while the character with lightning (including a thunderpunch) just wants one. Why shouldn't the guy who wants to focus on such unfocused things pay more?

(And if it seems unfair here, what if the guy wants paragon powers + lightning?)

I'd argue they're not picking different power sets from a mechanical standpoint. They are from a fluff standpoint, but the basic premise in M&M is that fluff is free. For some strange reason though, they appear to have lost sight of that point when suggesting how to limit arrays, creating the situation where if you want a more diverse power set, you have to go with broad fluff. But since fluff is free, all it means is that by choosing a certain theme for your character, you have arbitrary access to improved mechanical efficiency. If two characters can do the same thing mechanically, they should pay the same mechanical cost for it. That one describes it as two different power sets and the other describes it as one isn't really relevant, I think.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Descriptors aren't just fluff, though. They have distinct mechanical effects when relating to other powers like Nullify and Immunity. The idea that Arrays are meant to be tied together in theme, if not specific descriptors, also helps emphasize M&M's overall conceit that concept trumps being "rules-legal".

And while I hate to bring logic into Mutants & Masterminds or superheroes in general, is there any actual reason this hypothetical hero can't use his claws the same turn as he can use his Lightning other than "I want to save some PP"?

[Quellian-dyrae]

Descriptors aren't just fluff, though. They have distinct mechanical effects when relating to other powers like Nullify and Immunity.

Yeah, but those mechanical effects are generally free with a power, or 1 PP for a narrow group of them, or 2 PP for a broad group of them.


The idea that Arrays are meant to be tied together in theme, if not specific descriptors, also helps emphasize M&M's overall conceit that concept trumps being "rules-legal".

Fair enough, but restricting arrays in that manner unbalances certain concepts. In this claws + electricity vs. pure electricity we're working with, both characters have mechanically identical powers, save descriptor. But one could easily be paying twice the PP for it, just because the player made a slightly different fluff choice.


And while I hate to bring logic into Mutants & Masterminds or superheroes in general, is there any actual reason this hypothetical hero can't use his claws the same turn as he can use his Lightning other than "I want to save some PP"?

Maybe shooting lightning requires too much concentration to simultaneously make anything resembling a useful attack with his claws. Or he uses his hands to direct the lightning so he can't also be clawing things. Or if they're metal claws and he has them out while shooting lightning they'll conduct the electricity. Or he's electromagnetic and the claws are held together by electromagnetism so they're literally mutually exclusive with shooting lightning. Or he shoots the claws at the target and thats how he conducts the lightning to them.

That's kinda the thing. Fluff is...pretty easily mutable. It's not really that hard to come up with a reason to have claws and lightning that are mutually exclusive and thematically fall under the same umbrella. But I don't see why a player should be charged (potentially rather high) PP costs that provide no mechanical benefit for saying, "Man, you know what would be cool? A guy with claws like Wolverine, but he can shoot lightning!"

[tensai_oni]

This enforces your character having a coherent theme. "Like Wolverine but can shoot lightning!" doesn't sound like a good concept in my opinion, it sounds like two different superheroes mashed together.

But if you can rationalize it somehow - for example, do what you gave as an example, have your character shoot electricity out of his claws. Make them the channeling point, maybe say something about how it's metal implants in his skeleton that allow him to use electricity. Suddenly that's way better, more coherent theme-wise and I think more game masters would be willing to accept the two as alternate powers of each other.

You say it's a question of refluffing and rationalization - well, fluff is important too. You need to have one that makes sense.

Also I want to point out that it's not always a good idea to have all offensive powers in one array, even if you can use only one at a time anyway. If one gets drained or nullified, all array powers go good-bye and you're left with no "backup weapon".

[Rhynn]

Also I want to point out that it's not always a good idea to have all offensive powers in one array, even if you can use only one at a time anyway. If one gets drained or nullified, all array powers go good-bye and you're left with no "backup weapon".

This is a really, really, really good point. Why would your claws and electrical attacks get nullified at the same time?

If you have, say, a hammer that you can hit people with or that turns into a bolt of lightning when you throw it, the exact same powers would make sense, but "claws and also I can shoot electricity" doesn't, really. (Of course, that'd be a device to begin with, but w/e.)

[Quellian-dyrae]

You say it's a question of refluffing and rationalization - well, fluff is important too. You need to have one that makes sense.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying fluff isn't important. I'm just saying it shouldn't be that expensive.


Also I want to point out that it's not always a good idea to have all offensive powers in one array, even if you can use only one at a time anyway. If one gets drained or nullified, all array powers go good-bye and you're left with no "backup weapon".

Fair enough. I mean, to be fair, an at-PL attack generally costs somewhere on the order of a tenth your total PP, so whether that's worth the investment or not is definitely a matter of personal taste, but not arguing that it isn't a legitimate option.


This is a really, really, really good point. Why would your claws and electrical attacks get nullified at the same time?

If you have, say, a hammer that you can hit people with or that turns into a bolt of lightning when you throw it, the exact same powers would make sense, but "claws and also I can shoot electricity" doesn't, really. (Of course, that'd be a device to begin with, but w/e.)

That does make sense, again from a flavor standpoint. I'm thinking that the disconnect I'm having is that I'm trying to look at the rule from a game balance standpoint.

Looking at it from a "what makes the most sense IC" standpoint...I can understand it a bit better, I suppose.

[Rhynn]

That does make sense, again from a flavor standpoint. I'm thinking that the disconnect I'm having is that I'm trying to look at the rule from a game balance standpoint.

Looking at it from a "what makes the most sense IC" standpoint...I can understand it a bit better, I suppose.

That would be a problem, yes. M&M (2E at least, I haven't read the 3E rules) is explicitly not a game where all options are balanced against each other. There's at least one sidebar going "this power should not be taken by PCs, at least past level X" (Multiplication/Duplication/whatever, Multiple Man's power). The only balance point is the totals you get for attack, damage, etc. Your powers are just supposed to do what you want your powers to do; they don't also need to be balanced with everyone else's.

[Nerd-o-rama]

My dude with only one power and no useful skills from my wife's last M&M game waves hello. And makes some other dude with a low fort save wave, too.

[Rhynn]

Also cf. Wolverine, Phoenix, Cyclops, Colossus, Storm on the same team. Trying to build Wolverine on the same PL as Phoenix or Storm pretty much just gets you a pile of unspent points, because he has one cheap attack power and Regeneration (which is really really cheap).

[Nerd-o-rama]

Hey, don't forget Super-Smell and all those skill points used on Wilderness Survival stuff okay those are also stupid cheap.

[Tengu_temp]

Does Permanent Shrinking count?

[Cirrylius]

Hey, don't forget Super-Smell and all those skill points used on Wilderness Survival stuff okay those are also stupid cheap.

And berserking. And slow aging. And slightly superhuman dexterity and strength. And Immunity (broken bones). And Immunity (dismemberment), unless we're talking Ultimate.

F*****g Wolverine...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Point is he spent most of his points on small but annoying powers, feats, and stats, because he only has the one cheap attack power.

[Cirrylius]

Point is he spent most of his points on small but annoying powers, feats, and stats, because he only has the one cheap attack power.

Point taken.

[shadow_archmagi]

I think you've hit on one of the core issues of M&M- That consistent flavor and consistent mechanics are, on some level, never going to work perfectly together, and will always require players and GMs to compromise and make exceptions or just agree not to think too hard about certain things.


EDIT: My fanon for why claws-lightning guy can't use his claws and his lightning at the same time is that he casts his lightning attacks through his open palms (similar to Iron Man's blasters) so his wolverine-style knuckle-claws have to be pointed straight up for him to aim.

EDIT EDIT: And the reason why nullifying one nullifies the other is that his claws' retraction ability is mechanical, so the little machine that keeps them extended doesn't work in a null-energy zone.