[3.5] Havoc Mage (?)

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

The Havoc Mage is a pretty poor gish PrC (Miniatures Handbook). It's 3/5 caster progression, medium BAB, and the only class feature is Battlecast.

Battlecast pretty much allows you to cast a spell of a certain level or lower (starting at 2nd, going up to 8th) and attack once with a weapon as a full round action - the spell bypasses AoO and the need to have a free hand for somatic components.

Assuming a DM modded this PrC to be 5/5 casting, is Battlecast actually a worthwhile class feature?

Cheers - T

[Thurbane]

Actually, re-reading the description, I'm a bit unclear whether you get a full attack or a single attack, along with getting a spell off? I'm assuming single attack only.


A havoc mage gains the ability to cast spells of a certain level or lower while making a weapon attack. He may take a full-round action to attack and cast a spell.

Also, wondering if the attack could be a charge, trip attempt etc. as part of Battlecast?

[Callin]

Nope just 1 weapon attack and 1 spell. Its not a bad feature and I have used it before but its all it says on the can.

Maneuvers, Charging and other things like them require a Standard Action which cant be taken while taking a Full Attack Action. (which sucks because then the feature would be worthwhile for Initiator Gishes).

Snap Kick would work however...

[Thurbane]

But does it actually specify it's a full attack action?

It says it's a full-round action that includes a spell and an attack.

I would think this means no full-attack (i.e. no iteratives), but I would also think it means anything than can be accomplished on an attack (trip, maneuvre etc.) should be OK?

[Callin]

From the SRD

A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

[Thurbane]

I get that, but this particular full-round action comprises of casting a spell (normally a standard action) and an attack (also normally a standard action). I'm not sure the above quoted rules affect the attack part of Battlecast.

If you like, this attack is an action within another type of action.

I think the Battlecast description is vague enough to open to interpretation.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You spend a full-round action, and can make one attack and cast one spell (that falls within certain criteria). That one attack can be replaced with anything you could normally do in place of an attack, such as a trip, disarm, or grapple attempt (i.e. anything you could do on an AoO). You cannot replace the attack with another full-round action, such as a charge. You don't get to make a full attack, it's just a single attack. You can't even use a standard-action martial strike with it in a JPM build.

The class would have to grant either 5/5 casting or 5/5 BAB to be usable in any gish build. A gish can afford to lose four BAB and three levels of spellcasting (using Wizard) by 20th level. As it stands, Havoc Mage costs you two of that four available BAB loss and two of that three available spellcasting loss, leaving you to qualify for it by losing only two BAB and one level of spellcasting. Trying to qualify with Fighter 2/ Wizard 4 loses too much spellcasting, and Fighter 1/ Wizard 6 loses too much BAB.

I think its greatest benefit would be on a partial casting build, such as a Suel Arcanamach. In that case you could forgo the fifth level to avoid losing more BAB, though the fourth level is still useful since it improves BAB, spellcasting, and two saves.

You could put a Havoc Mage dip on a Duskblade, and spend a full round action to cast True Strike and make an attack Power Attacking for your full BAB.

If it granted 5/5 spellcasting, something like Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Havoc Mage 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4 would be suitable. If it granted 5/5 BAB, something like Fighter 1/ Wizard 6/ Havoc Mage 5/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar or Sacred Exorcist 3 (or Spellsword 1/ Paragnostic Apostle 2) would work. Note Fighter 2/ Wizard 4 can be replaced by Human or Elf Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2 if you're not after Dungeoncrasher. If you're not using a Spellsword dip, you can even replace Fighter with something like Warblade. Assuming all your prestige class levels count toward your initiator level, including racial paragon levels, taking your one level of Warblade at 6th will be able to get 3rd level maneuvers and stances.

Note that a given character is going to be better off using a Circlet of Rapid Casting or (Rod of) Quicken Spell or Arcane Spellsurge (or Perpetual Options on a Swiftblade) to cast a spell and still be able to full attack or charge. The standard arcane gish builds give up all available BAB and spellcasting to get the most optimal combination of class features (Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight 4, or Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Spelldancer 1/ Abjurant Champion 4, or Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8). There's really not much room for improvement, especially using Havoc Mage.

[Thurbane]

You spend a full-round action, and can make one attack and cast one spell (that falls within certain criteria). That one attack can be replaced with anything you could normally do in place of an attack, such as a trip, disarm, or grapple attempt (i.e. anything you could do on an AoO). You cannot replace the attack with another full-round action, such as a charge. You don't get to make a full attack, it's just a single attack. You can't even use a standard-action martial strike with it in a JPM build.
That's a solid reading of the rules IMHO.


I think its greatest benefit would be on a partial casting build, such as a Suel Arcanamach. In that case you could forgo the fifth level to avoid losing more BAB, though the fourth level is still useful since it improves BAB, spellcasting, and two saves.

You could put a Havoc Mage dip on a Duskblade, and spend a full round action to cast True Strike and make an attack Power Attacking for your full BAB.
Both very good suggestions. :smallsmile:

[nedz]

A 1 (or 2) level dip costs you 1 CL and 1 BAB. This gives you Battlecast 2nd, which might have uses for a Gish.

Level 3 costs you another CL for Battlecast 4th

Level 5 costs you the final -1 BAB for Battlecast 8th.

A one level dip seems optimal.

[Waddacku]

Note that a given character is going to be better off using a Circlet of Rapid Casting or (Rod of) Quicken Spell or Arcane Spellsurge (or Perpetual Options on a Swiftblade) to cast a spell and still be able to full attack or charge. The standard arcane gish builds give up all available BAB and spellcasting to get the most optimal combination of class features (Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight 4, or Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Spelldancer 1/ Abjurant Champion 4, or Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8). There's really not much room for improvement, especially using Havoc Mage.

To be fair, it CAN get you two spells and an attack in a turn. Whether that's better than one spell and a full attack/charge will vary, of course. It has a niche, albeit not a highly impressive one.

[Fouredged Sword]

Really, to me, it feels like it would do better as a 3 level PRC. Give it 3/4th bab and 2/3 casting (advances at 2nd and 3rd), and each level extends battle casting for 3 spell levels (0-3rd, 4-6th, and 7-9th), maybe with turning it into a standard action as a capstone. With the capstone I would consider turning it into a 5 level class, but again, it needs some other feature in the middle to be more than just "battlecasting - the class".

That is a PRC I could see fitted into a gish. Not every gish would want it, but enough wound that it is a cool PRC.