''Pirate Hunter'' Zoro

[Iktus]

OK... this is -sort of- unrelated to D&D, but not totally.
Me and a friend of mine got into an argument over zoro's (from one piece) alignment. I have it he is lawful good and my friend says chaotic good.
Ok, yes, he is a pirate. but only kinda. He used to hunt pirates...
He's just with luffy because of his honour and because he recognizes luffy is stronger than him and may help him achieve his goal. He's extremely disciplined towards achieving this one goal, almost to the exclusion of everything else.
He's also very loyal to luffy, going so far as to want to give up his life in exchange for luffy's.
and he's always going on about honour, honour, honour.
I say lawful good. lawful neutral maybe, but lawful nontheless.
What do you think?

[Nettlekid]

No one in the Straw Hat crew is Lawful. To be Lawful means that they would respect the code of institutes like the World Government and the marines. Chaotic types can adhere to their own sets of rules and codes, so they can respect a captain figure, they just wouldn't have a strong adherence toward actual rules and laws. In addition, Chaotic types love freedom, which all the Straw Hats love.

I think you're seriously underestimating Zoro's character. He's not "just with" Luffy for any reason, and certainly not just for personal gain. True, their friendship started as more of an alliance, and Zoro made it clear that if Luffy got in the way of his goal, Zoro would kill him. That is entirely no longer true. I don't think Luffy is actually that much stronger than Zoro, but Zoro respects Luffy's position as captain not by virtue of his good decisions (ha) but because of his willpower and determination. It's that same respect of Luffy that made him so angry that Usopp was being so flippant and disrespectful during the Water 7 arc, and Zoro stated that if Luffy allowed Usopp to return without apologizing for his disrespect, Zoro would leave the crew. That's a very "honor amongst thieves" kind of this, and definitely fits a Chaotic persona, though frankly it could even be Neutral since it's more about a personal feeling than any strong code.

Secondly, I don't think it's quite right to say that Zoro's Good. He's one of the "good guys," but he's done some pretty harsh things. At Whiskey Peak, he killed the 100 bounty hunters that were trying to trick the Straw Hats. It's not an Evil act, because it's criminal against criminal, but Zoro's strong enough to just knock them out. He killed them. Just like he killed the Baroque Works agent sent to hire him years prior. And even when he was using the backs of his blades on the innocent Galley-La workers, Nami and Chopper remarked that he was giving them lethal wounds. So, he's pretty harsh.

I'd say he's either Chaotic Neutral or True Neutral. Chaotic Neutral fits with the freedom theme of being a pirate, while True Neutral is better suited toward his combined disrespect of authority but holding a strong moral code of honor. He also doesn't tie himself down to any one ethical code, the way Sanji absolutely won't strike women. Just look at the battle with Monet. "I was sure you wouldn't cut a woman..." "Sure, there are things I don't want to cut. But have you ever seen a wild beast that you were sure wouldn't bite? Because I haven't." Also, True Neutral fits with his mild Buddhist theme (he has many Buddhist elements, often reflected in his attack names.)

I'd say the alignments for the Straw Hats goes:
Luffy: Chaotic Neutral
Zoro: True Neutral
Nami: Chaotic Neutral
Usopp: Chaotic Good
Sanji: Chaotic Good
Chopper: Neutral Good
Robin: True Neutral
Franky: Chaotic Good
Brook: Neutral Good

[Averis Vol]

nothing about actively defying the law (Especially one that's just and not overtly abusive) makes you a lawful person. Once it came to a point where working for the government stopped being useful to further his goal to become the greatest swordsman alive, he joined a group of wanted outlaws and has sunk government ships to save his own hide.

You might be able to make a case for good because he follows luffy who is more on the good side of the spectrum, but you don't have a snowballs chance in hell of justifying lawful.

EDIT: Swordsage'd hardcore yo.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Zoro is true neutral.

This is just my opinion, because alignments are a terrible system that rely on handwaving, but he's pretty neutral to stuff. His loyalty to Luffy is probably for similar reasons as all those other very different people who are loyal to Luffy; rough-around-the-edges honesty and a strong sense of empathy. But other than his loyalty to Luffy, Zoro is entirely driven by a promise he made to someone important to him, a promise to become the best swordsman in the world. The goal to improve yourself is not chaotic, lawful (I don't care if WotC says that monks are lawful), good, or evil.

[Iktus]

wow thanks alot nettlekid that totaly answered my question. true neutral is much more accurate.

[Iktus]

Jade Dragon;16225624The goal to improve yourself is not chaotic, lawful (I don't care if WotC says that monks are lawful), good, or evil.

on a different note, I would simply like to say to this that the goal to improve oneself is of no alignment, it is the rigorous discipline needed to achieve self improvement that makes it lawful, that's all. You must forsake an important part of your personal freedom to be able to concentrate single-mindedly on a single purpose. The rigorous moral and self discipline needed to never falter whilst undertaking your task is what makes it lawful. Lawful as in ''respecting a code''
that's why monks are lawful, that's all

but yeah, alignments can be pretty shifty. but still. I think it makes sense a monk is lawful. I mean, they are so disciplined that they can harness the power of their very soul and project it outwards (ki). That's disciplined!

[geekintheground]

i disagree. i think zoro perfectly fits the lawful alignment. not only does he strictly follow his own code accepting death for breaking it, but he follows luffy no matter what. "lawful" does not mean "follow all authority no matter what".

[Nettlekid]

i disagree. i think zoro perfectly fits the lawful alignment. not only does he strictly follow his own code accepting death for breaking it, but he follows luffy no matter what. "lawful" does not mean "follow all authority no matter what".

See, I get the sense that following your own code is a very chaotic thing to do, while following another's code is a lawful thing to do. Look at Robin Hood and his band of Merry Men, who are the quintessential Chaotic Good characters. They all have a strong personal code of righteousness and doing what's just, and the band all follows Robin with unwavering loyalty. And they're all super Chaotic.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Having personal codes is really messy on whether it makes you lawful or chaotic. But a safe bet is that if they've ever stated their code in clear terms, they're lawful, and if they follow their motivation and gut, they're chaotic.

[Nettlekid]

Having personal codes is really messy on whether it makes you lawful or chaotic. But a safe bet is that if they've ever stated their code in clear terms, they're lawful, and if they follow their motivation and gut, they're chaotic.

I dunno, Luffy's whole "A hero has to share the meat. I wanna eat all the meat!" is a pretty clear-cut, well-stated moral code, and is chaotic stupid as heck. Meanwhile, I don't think Akainu has a very distinct sense of "This is exactly what I would do in any given situation" kind of thing going on, instead favoring the "I'mma destroy everything," and yet I'd call him Lawful Evil.

[Blackjackg]

I agree with the perspective that someone who follows a personal code (note: a code is different from following one's gut or moral imperatives-- it has to be codified to be a code) is lawful.

Zoro has a code, but there are two things that prevent him from being fully lawful: he's flexible about his code (like when he first decided to become a pirate after previously stating that he would never be a pirate); and there are a lot of situations that his code doesn't cover and he has to make snap decisions on. I'd say he's a solid True Neutral, maybe with Neutral Good tendencies. Maybe.

EDIT: Luffy and Usopp are Chaotic Good and Nami is Chaotic Neutral. I'm not sure about Sanji, Chopper or Robin, though.

[geekintheground]

See, I get the sense that following your own code is a very chaotic thing to do, while following another's code is a lawful thing to do. Look at Robin Hood and his band of Merry Men, who are the quintessential Chaotic Good characters. They all have a strong personal code of righteousness and doing what's just, and the band all follows Robin with unwavering loyalty. And they're all super Chaotic.

even when calling following his own code chaotic, he's always obeyed luffy loyally. and while at 1st it was "as long as its in line with my own path", after the moria fight he was willing to die to save luffy.

edit: also, you think following someone elses code is lawful, but robin's merry men are chaotic? and i would say robin and his men are neutral: willing to break bad laws but following all the other ones

[CIDE]

See, I get the sense that following your own code is a very chaotic thing to do, while following another's code is a lawful thing to do. Look at Robin Hood and his band of Merry Men, who are the quintessential Chaotic Good characters. They all have a strong personal code of righteousness and doing what's just, and the band all follows Robin with unwavering loyalty. And they're all super Chaotic.

Even in D&D following your own code can be lawful. It's just a far harsher restriction on it which boiled down to "to the detriment of yourself". Which aptly fits Zoro. He is in no way, shape, or form an example of chaos and just because he doesn't follow the rules of a VERY corrupt government should mean nothing against that notion. He's lawful and/or Neutral.

[Nettlekid]

even when calling following his own code chaotic, he's always obeyed luffy loyally. and while at 1st it was "as long as its in line with my own path", after the moria fight he was willing to die to save luffy.

edit: also, you think following someone elses code is lawful, but robin's merry men are chaotic? and i would say robin and his men are neutral: willing to break bad laws but following all the other ones

You don't have to constantly break laws to be chaotic. It's about the mindset in which you see the laws. If they help you then sure, follow them, but don't restrict yourself if you would have to do so in order to follow the law. Robin Hood's Merry Men aren't so much following Robin Hood's code as having adopted it as their own, so they all follow their own code which is the same as that of their allies. The police on the other hand all follow the laws that they're told to follow and uphold, which is a lawful thing to do.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Eurgh, this is why I hate the lawful/chaotic axis even more than the good/evil one. Is a rebel good, neutral, or evil? Depends on actions taken by both sides of the conflict. Still subjective, but at least it leans to one side or another. Is a rebel chaotic, or lawful, or neutral? There are arguments for all, in any context, unless the context is "rebel is an Anarchist", in which case it's definitely chaotic.

[Nettlekid]

Eurgh, this is why I hate the lawful/chaotic axis even more than the good/evil one. Is a rebel good, neutral, or evil? Depends on actions taken by both sides of the conflict. Still subjective, but at least it leans to one side or another. Is a rebel chaotic, or lawful, or neutral? There are arguments for all, in any context, unless the context is "rebel is an Anarchist", in which case it's definitely chaotic.

Agreed. But that makes it more interesting. With Good and Evil, it's usually the more Good, the better. Like, people are content to live in a Neutral world, but it's a very rare case that the Good beings are corrupted to the point of being like "You must be cleansed for the sake of the Greater Good" and are thus the bad guys. No, usually it's just "Kill all the Evil things, save all the Good things." Whereas with Law and Chaos, almost always having too much of either is a bad thing, and so Neutrality is the goal. You don't want anarchy, but you don't want totalitarianism either.

[astrallite]

Zoro is basically a ronin samurai who follows his own "honor" code but in terms of morality he and most of the straw hats the only thing that fits them is Chaotic Neutral. They will break laws and even steal if they can personally justify it, basically a bunch of opportunistic Robin Hoods.

[geekintheground]

Zoro is basically a ronin samurai who follows his own "honor" code but in terms of morality he and most of the straw hats the only thing that fits them is Chaotic Neutral. They will break laws and even steal if they can personally justify it, basically a bunch of opportunistic Robin Hoods.

the only time theyre shown stealing (other than nami) is in skypiea... and all the natives were gonna give it to them anyway. i suppose the intent is there so it counts.

[Alleran]

I'd peg (-leg, heh heh) most of the Straw Hats at these:

Luffy: CG
Zoro: TN
Sanji: CG
Usopp: NG
Nami: CN
Franky: CG
Brook: TN?
Chopper: NG
Robin: TN

Yeah, they all say they're not heroes and are pirates, but the majority of them are still strongly good-aligned, so even the ones who are technically neutral at the moment are quite probably sliding towards the Good end of the alignment metre. Except for maybe Zoro, who's still sitting squarely in the middle.

For the Marines, I'd say Akainu would be LE, Kizaru LN and Aokiji LG (or LN with very strong Good leanings, switching to LG during the events post-Marineford).