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View Full Version : What is wrong with the Half-Elf?



Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-02, 03:29 PM
Now, I know that it is the widely-shared opinion on these boards that the half-elf as presented in the PHB is underpowered. It is not the intent of this thread to say that they are not underpowered.

This thread is an inquiry into what specific aspects of the half-elf are held to be underpowered, and why, so that I can have these points in mind when I alter them for my homebrew world.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-02, 03:33 PM
Look at it this way.

What do they get?

Compare that to what dwarves, or elves, or humans get.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-02, 03:34 PM
So the problem is one of quantity rather (or more) than it is of quality?

Matthew
2007-01-02, 03:36 PM
They should get half the advantages of Elves and half the advantages of Humans, but they don't. All they get from their Human side is the freedom to Multi Class, which isn't much.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-02, 03:37 PM
So the problem is one of quantity rather (or more) than it is of quality?

That is a pretty good way to put it. I like to give them the human skill bonuses +4 at 1st and +1 a level and they seem to be a little more playable.

Zincorium
2007-01-02, 03:39 PM
1. No stat modifications. Yeah, you have both a plus and a minus with most, but they are a big step if you have rolled stats and can't do much with where points are.

2. No combat capable special abilities. Weapon proficiencies and selective bonuses to attack and defense don't seem like much, but they never hurt.

3. They just plain aren't as good as either humans or elves at anything besides diplomacy.

4. Why exactly is a rare pairing of different races a standard race anyway? You'd think half elves would be less common as adventurers than goblins or kobolds, if only due to their rarity.

AmoDman
2007-01-02, 03:42 PM
They should get half the advantages of Elves and half the advantages of Humans, but they don't. All they get from their Human side is the freedom to Multi Class, which isn't much.

On the topic of Half-Low Light Vision, it's kind of like I can vaguely see in the dark, but I can't.

Concering half a feat, at first level, it's sort of like I receive a feat, but I don't really. For example, if I take Dodge, I get a +1/2 AC bonus when Dodging, but since you tend to round things down in D&D, it comes out to nothing, so you should definitely choose better than dodge.

Wherein lie the statistic bonuses, I'm the only race to get a +1 and -1, and +1 to certain skill checks and saving throws as well.

Of what weapons the half-elf is automatically proficient, I can choose to be proficient with two of the following weapons - longsword, rapier, longbow, and shortbow.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 03:51 PM
They're elves with about half the elves' racial abilities. This means they suck.

amodman: if you take Dodge, you've already gotten "half a feat," no houseruling necessary... that thing's about as useful as Combat Casting.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-02, 03:54 PM
Okay, I think I know what I'm going to do with them, then. Thank you all.

One more thing: Would you call a human's bonus feat and skill points cultural or mental traits?

Jack Mann
2007-01-02, 03:56 PM
So the problem is one of quantity rather (or more) than it is of quality?

No. It's a matter of both quantity and quality. They don't have much, and what they have isn't much worth having. Except for that diplomacy bonus, they just don't have much that's a solid advantage.

Thomas
2007-01-02, 03:58 PM
No. It's a matter of both quantity and quality. They don't have much, and what they have isn't much worth having. Except for that diplomacy bonus, they just don't have much that's a solid advantage.

I really don't see how the Diplomacy bonus is an advantage at all. A human could spend that bonus feat on Skill Focus (Diplomacy), get a better bonus, and still have those extra skill points...

Chris_Chandler
2007-01-02, 03:58 PM
The half-elf is... okay, but they don't get anything particularly individualized about them, but are rather a kludge between the two races, with the social angle thrown in. Humans have a huge advantage with a free feat and bonus skill points, and elves have a ton of special abilities, but, more importantly, a stat bonus.

Stat bonuses are, inherently, a better deal than stat penalites (though not so much that the 1/2 orc is warranted - another topic). Races without stat bonuses at all (Humans, Illurians, Elan, a few others) have good stuff to offset the descrepancy, but 1/2 elves just seem like watered-down elves, without gaining anything (the non-favored class is laughable) from human parentage. Mechanically, there is no reason to play a 1/2 elf unless a specific build requires that you spread your levels around at an odd amount, but you need some sort of elvish heritage.

Mind you, flavor-wise, I like the concept, and have no issue with playing 1/2 elves when mechanics are not the focus.

AmoDman
2007-01-02, 04:00 PM
Okay, I think I know what I'm going to do with them, then. Thank you all.

One more thing: Would you call a human's bonus feat and skill points cultural or mental traits?

I suppose it depends on your world. In a "Standard" world, humans are the most diverse of all the races, illustrating that they perhaps adapt and learn quicker as a species to new ways of life when compared to the longer lived races, but this is not to say that High Elves do not have different factions and cultures in your own world...

krossbow
2007-01-02, 04:16 PM
I know that it horribly infringes on the "No 1's 3's or any other odd number!" rule, but changing half elfs to get a +1 to charisma and a simple +1 skills per level plus low-light vision would make them fairly useful.


sure, it'd be a free stat, but doesn't WotC think that charisma is the least important stat anyways (from the dungeon masters guide)?

tarbrush
2007-01-02, 04:32 PM
(the non-favored class is laughable)

I take issue with that. It means your favoured class can be a non PHB class. Which is damn handy. But humans get it too, and have that juicy free feat.

But in general, I agree, half elves are just not as good as anything else.

Jack Mann
2007-01-02, 04:43 PM
I really don't see how the Diplomacy bonus is an advantage at all. A human could spend that bonus feat on Skill Focus (Diplomacy), get a better bonus, and still have those extra skill points...

Eh, if you're going for diplomancy, you can take skill focus (diplomacy) and the +2, and end up breaking the game a bit sooner. Of course, then the DM either houserules different diplomacy rules, or else he starts sending in only creatures without a language you know.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-02, 04:45 PM
Well, what if the PC is a half-elf bard that used his first level to learn every language in existence?

Pegasos989
2007-01-02, 04:52 PM
Well, what if the PC is a half-elf bard that used his first level to learn every language in existence?

He would be better off as a human, as they get more skillpoints for that. ;) (And at higher levels with scrolls of tongues accessible, he might feel really bad he spent those points on the less common languages)

tbarrie
2007-01-02, 05:05 PM
1. No stat modifications. Yeah, you have both a plus and a minus with most, but they are a big step if you have rolled stats and can't do much with where points are.


It's a big help if you're using point-buy too. Switching a 16 to an 18 and a 12 to a 10 puts you way ahead on points.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-02, 05:10 PM
I actually have a human bard that did that. He looked at it and said "Is there any cap for learning languages per level?" "No, I don't think there is." "Oh. Then I know every language."

He likes to use his spells to aid the party rogue in scamming people. His ability to speak every language has been bizarrely useful.

Jayabalard
2007-01-02, 05:34 PM
Not that they need to have it to be "fixed", but I been looking at altering them a fair bit because I just didn't like the flavor.

Not immune to sleep; slight save bonus to magical sleep and enchantments spells/effects instead (+1).

heightened senses +1 to thier spot/listen/search checks

+1 dex, -1 con (yes, I know, it's an odd modifier)

low light vision.

Differentiate between half elves raised in human society and those raised in elven society.

Ones raised in Human society should gain more of thier human advantages:
>either gain a bonus feat at 1st level or gain human bonus skills as a human would; player choice.
>Favored class: any

ones raised in Elven society should gain more of thier elven heritage
>gain the same weapon proficiencies as elves.
>heightened senses: automatic search roll to find secret doors as if they were activly looking for it as elves do, though they are at -1 to the roll since thier senses are slightly less developed.
>has learned to trance as elves; can choose to do that rather than sleep.
>Favored class: same as elves (which isn't wizard in my campaign)

Amphimir Míriel
2007-01-02, 05:34 PM
Okay, I think I know what I'm going to do with them, then. Thank you all.

Hey! don't leave us in the dark! let us know what are your proposed fixes for Half-elves (and half-orcs, for that matter :smallwink: )

goken04
2007-01-02, 05:42 PM
>either gain a bonus feat at 1st level or gain human bonus skills as a human would; player choice.

This is how my gaming group always plays elves now. And we've actually HAD one or two since instituting the rule. Far from overpowers the race and makes it playable.

Belteshazzar
2007-01-02, 06:36 PM
I thing that half-elf and half-orc should be relegated to being templates like the other half-whatevers, it just makes more sense. I would rather play a pure orc or elf rather than a half-human anyway.

Deathcow
2007-01-02, 06:56 PM
I thing that half-elf and half-orc should be relegated to being templates like the other half-whatevers, it just makes more sense. I would rather play a pure orc or elf rather than a half-human anyway.

Except for crappy Light Sensitivity for orcs... blah.

Pegasos989
2007-01-02, 06:59 PM
Except for crappy Light Sensitivity for orcs... blah.

Sunglasses, dear friend. Sunglasses.

Jack_of_Spades
2007-01-02, 07:06 PM
I give them the human bonus skill points, the elven Listen and Spot bonuses, proficiency in one martial weapon that can be used with weapon finesse, +2 to gather info and survival.

The have the knack for learning that humans have and the heightened elven senses. They also have a natural gift with light weapons form thier elven heritage. Because they are usually outcasts they've learned how to gain information from strangers and to survive alone.

Matthew
2007-01-02, 07:14 PM
I would drop the Diplomacy and Gather Information Bonuses for either the Human Bonus Feat at Level One or the additional Skill Point.

TheOOB
2007-01-02, 07:16 PM
I've always ran with these versions of half-elf and half-orc. All features are in addition to normal race features unless otherwise noted

Half-Elf
Versitile: Half-Elves are good at adapting to any situation, even if they have little professional training in. Half-Elves only need to spend 1 skill point to gain a rank in a non-class skill(though they still are subject to the cross-class skill rank cap), and they act as if they had .5 ranks in any skills with which they have no ranks (thus allowed them to use skills that are normall only usable trained even if they are untrained.)

Half-Orc
+2 Strength, -2 Charisma: Half-Orcs are bigger and stronger then humans, but as they are considered outcasts in both human and orc society they tend to be reserved and socially inept. This replaces a standard Half-Orcs ability modifiers.
+2 Racial Bonus to Intimidate Checks, A Half-Orc is an imposing sight that can strike fear into even the most battle hardened of folk.

The Half-Elf versitile ability is acually a combination of two feats, neither of which should be allowed in a game if you are using this varient of half-elf(as it's important each race has something unique to them). The ability gives half-elves a reason for existing without really giving them many new bonuses.

While the DMG says that +2 Str -2 Cha is unbalanced, I don't think it makes Half-Orcs any more powerful then dwarves or gray elves(two of the most overpowered races). Besides, a penalty to Int penalizes every class to a degree, and makes many classes very difficult to play (fighter, wizard, rogue, bard, ect) while a penalty to cha just matters to some classes and helps support the social stigma which is central to the half-orc concept. The bonus to intimidate is mainly because I don't belive a half-orc should be any less intimidating then a human(due to the cha penalty).

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-02, 08:11 PM
Hey! don't leave us in the dark! let us know what are your proposed fixes for Half-elves (and half-orcs, for that matter :smallwink: )

Well, I figured that was more a matter for the Homebrew forum, but what they hey...

I'm going for minimal changes, here, so here goes:

Half-elves gain either a bonus feat at 1st, like humans, or proficiency with longsword, scimitar, and bows, like the elves of my world, depending on which culture they were brought up in. I also increased the Listen, Search, and Spot bonus to +2.

For half-orcs, i just said "no Charisma penalty", looked at what I had done, and called it good.

Belteshazzar
2007-01-02, 08:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belteshazzar http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1769800#post1769800)
I thing that half-elf and half-orc should be relegated to being templates like the other half-whatevers, it just makes more sense. I would rather play a pure orc or elf rather than a half-human anyway.

Except for crappy Light Sensitivity for orcs... blah.

Orcish light sensitivity bah! Drow have it worse and they do fine.

krossbow
2007-01-02, 08:27 PM
Yeah, simply scrapping the charisma penalty makes half-orcs work perfectly.


Though, when balancing things, we should always take a step back and look at who we're balancing against: Don't balance against dwarfs: They're too good. Humans are a good example of a fairly balanced approach.

Gyrfalcon
2007-01-02, 08:35 PM
+1 dex, -1 con (yes, I know, it's an odd modifier)

I think the reason WotC doesn't do this in 3.5 is this is actually a net -1 modifier. Why? given baseline stats, the half-elf has a dex of 11 (no bonus) and a con of 9 (-1 penalty).

DeathQuaker
2007-01-03, 04:50 PM
I'd just replace half-elves' bonus to Diplo and Gather Info with a flat out +2 to Cha. I know someone once said, "Well that gives an unfair advantage to people making Sorcerers and Bards." So? Half-elves make good sorcerers and bards anyway. Strength and Con bonuses as Half Orcs and Dwarves get give them an advantage in hitting things/not getting hurt.

Macrovore
2007-01-03, 05:00 PM
that's what i do. it really works well, especially in eberron.
and i completely remade half-orcs:
Half-orcs are completely replaced by the following:
-+2 Strength, –2 Intelligence. A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
-Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
-Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
-Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
-Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
-Half-orcs recieve a +2 racial bonus on all Survival and Intimidate checks, as well as +1 to all Fort Saves
-Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
-Favored Class: Barbarian.

well, it's not completely remade, but not it's not sucky.

Jack Mann
2007-01-03, 05:12 PM
After removing the charisma penalty, I generally give half-orcs the faster healing feat, a bonus to intimidate (or diplomacy, if they're playing in my homebrew), and familiarity with the orc double axe. None of which is particularly powerful, but helps with the flavor of half-orcs.

Pegasos989
2007-01-03, 05:24 PM
I'd just replace half-elves' bonus to Diplo and Gather Info with a flat out +2 to Cha. I know someone once said, "Well that gives an unfair advantage to people making Sorcerers and Bards." So? Half-elves make good sorcerers and bards anyway. Strength and Con bonuses as Half Orcs and Dwarves get give them an advantage in hitting things/not getting hurt.

Did you imply that half-elves already make good sorcerers before the +2 cha? If so, I am interested in reasoning behind it. If not, nevermind.


that's what i do. it really works well, especially in eberron.
and i completely remade half-orcs:
Half-orcs are completely replaced by the following:
-+2 Strength, –2 Intelligence. A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3.
-Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
-Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
-Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all.
-Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
-Half-orcs recieve a +2 racial bonus on all Survival and Intimidate checks, as well as +1 to all Fort Saves
-Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
-Favored Class: Barbarian.

well, it's not completely remade, but not it's not sucky.


Well, you could have just said that you removed cha penalty, added +1 to fort saves and +2 to survival and intimidate. ;)

Anyways, I normally remove half-orc cha penalty and give profiency with orc double axe

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-03, 05:39 PM
IMO, the orc double axe is pretty lame and I never use it, so I don't even think of giving them familiarity.

The_Pope
2007-01-03, 05:51 PM
The only real time the Half-Elf was particularly useful was back in 1st and 2nd with multiclassing. They could practically be any multiclass, save for like, cleric/thief I think. That was useful; they were the only race able to be cleric/mages, which was a totally bitching class. But other than that, they got what, infravision. Whoopee.

Well, actually, infravision was pretty neat, but thats besides the point.

Lord_Kimboat
2007-01-03, 06:44 PM
Half Elves are a little underpowered but IMHO not as bad as Half-Orcs. I mean they lose both Int and Cha only to gain Str. Now apparently this is because Str is supposed to be a better stat but I disagree. It gives you a bonus to hit and damage but only in melee and increases your carrying capacity but that's about it. It doesn't help a saving throw and there's only like 3 skills it gives you a bonus to.

This makes Half Elves look good by comparison, yet I wonder why there are so many players with half orcs - maybe they just like a challenge? I certainly agree with TheOOB's modifications and hope that WotC adopt them in the next upgrade.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-03, 10:43 PM
Did you imply that half-elves already make good sorcerers before the +2 cha? If so, I am interested in reasoning behind it. If not, nevermind.

Okay, they make good bards. :smalltongue:

Actually, I think a half-elven sorcerer--or moreover, a multiclass fighter-sorcerer or rogue-sorcerer (esp. if you go for Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, or Red Dragon Disciple) could be pretty good, esp. since they've no favored multiclass. Flavor-wise it works well at least. :smallsmile:

Scalenex
2007-01-03, 11:05 PM
I'm an old schooler who got into 3.5 after having played lots of 2nd ed when I was younger and taking years off from playing D&D until recently.

I have to bring up my 2nd edition view of half-elfs just for the irony. I thought they were overpowered. I usually played them. There were barely any classes off limits to them and the few that were were human only (minus illusionist which was Gnome or Human only). My thought was, if I can play it as a human, why not be a half-elf? They get some minor bonuses and no penalties (and a longer life span, not that that often mattered). They also had the most multi-class options of any race. My group reached the consensus that for starting at first level (or simply a low level), multi-class beat out dual class, and to an extant single class. We had lots of half-elves.

Now the few of my friends who still RP with me from my 2nd ed days and play the 3.5 D&D game I'm running also consider half-elves and half-orcs not only under powered but over represented. Both half-humans would not be very prevalent because humans don't sleep around that much and that half-humans are more likely to breed with humans than with their other halves meaning that their children would be full humans (with a few very small tendencies). I'd figure even a cosmopolitain place would be only about 2% half-humans rather than the wider margins given in the DMG. In defense of half-human characters as being playable, their status as outsiders would mean they'd have a disportionate number of adventurers amongst their demographic.

Sieg
2007-01-04, 12:32 AM
Its was already said: They trade a extra feat for lowlight vision and imunity to sleep spells! Come on! That sucks hard! :smallsigh:
They also get no extra skillpoints per lvl just to get some bonuses in other skills!

Unfortuantly Half Elves sucks! I'd say that even half orcs do better! :smallcool: