Different 3.5 Systems, How many

[TabletopGamer]

How many different systems are there in 3.5 from the normal set up of spells and normal martial combatants like Fighter.

I mean like Maneuvers and Invocations. What else is there?
I keep finding new things every book I open it seems so I would like a list of what kinds of weird stuff is out there and what they do.

[Kennisiou]

There's Binding, Truenaming, and Mysteries from Tome of Magic, Artificers from Eberron have Imbuements and Warlocks from Complete Arcane have invocations. And of course there's psionics.

Not to mention the various means of casting spells listed throughout sourcebooks (runes, candlecasting, etc), and I'm sure I'm missing a lot more from the first list as well.

[Psyren]

Incarnum/soulmelds weren't mentioned.


Artificers from Eberron have Imbuements

(I think you meant infusions here)

[Snowbluff]

Guys that enhance their own weaponry could be its own thing. :smalltongue:

I think all of the major ones have been covered...

Factotum Inspiration? Does that count?

[TabletopGamer]

Yeah this is an oddity lol.

I also just saw how easily the Swordsage can be altered via the Unarmed and Arcane variants, any classes have that type of customizing system?

[Snowbluff]

I think that would be labeled as Adaptation. It's more of a DM thing.

[TabletopGamer]

I have the book but never noticed that specific part.

Any other classes like that?

[Snowbluff]

I have the book but never noticed that specific part.

Any other classes like that?

It's mostly for spellcasting PrCs. Things like "This arcane prestige class can be adapted to use divine casting," or "This can be adapted for a different deity." Ruby Knight Vindicator is a good example.

More complete and better edited (ToB has bad editing) books would treat it like an Alternate Class Feature or Substitution level.

[Psyren]

In terms of switching power source - Anima Mage and Sapphire Hierarch can be adapted to almost anything. Eldritch Disciple can be opened up from cleric , to any divine.

[Blackjackg]

Some classes (like the Marshal and the Dragon Shaman) use auras, and psionics have multiple manifestations (pardon the pun).

I don't know if these count exactly, but there's also Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel and Teamwork Benefits from Heroes of Battle.

[Pickford]

How many different systems are there in 3.5 from the normal set up of spells and normal martial combatants like Fighter.

I mean like Maneuvers and Invocations. What else is there?
I keep finding new things every book I open it seems so I would like a list of what kinds of weird stuff is out there and what they do.

TabletopGamer: Depends, do you consider Melee different than Ranged as different than Mounted Combat? (If so, that's three systems for combat in core alone!)

Spellcasting differentiations are easier: Truenaming Magic, Shadow Magic, Binding Magic, Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, Invocation Magic

Of course Arcane and Divine are totally different depending on who is doing it. For example, there are some Wu Jen only spells, some Druid only spells, some Bard only spells, does that make them their own system? (They certainly all memorize spells differently, Sorc vs Wizard for example...a Geometer vs Eidetic...)

1) Core Melee and Ranged (Ex: Fighter)
2) Core Arcane spellcasting Memorized (Ex: Wizard)
3) Core Arcane spellcasting Spontaneous (Ex: Sorceror)
4) Core Divine Spellcasting Memorized (Ex: Cleric)
5) Divine spellcasting Spontaneous (Ex: Favored Soul)
6) Invocations (Ex: Warlock)
7) Truenaming (Ex: Truenamer)
8) Shadow Magic (Ex: Shadow Mage)
9) Binding (Ex: Binder)
10) Martial Maneuvers (Ex: Warblade)
11) Psionics

[Psyren]

1) Core Melee and Ranged (Ex: Fighter)
2) Core Arcane spellcasting Memorized (Ex: Wizard)
3) Core Arcane spellcasting Spontaneous (Ex: Sorceror)
4) Core Divine Spellcasting Memorized (Ex: Cleric)
5) Divine spellcasting Spontaneous (Ex: Favored Soul)
6) Invocations (Ex: Warlock)
7) Truenaming (Ex: Truenamer)
8) Shadow Magic (Ex: Shadow Mage)
9) Binding (Ex: Binder)
10) Martial Maneuvers (Ex: Warblade)
11) Psionics

12) Soulmelds
13) Infusions
14) Auras

[TabletopGamer]

Who uses Auras?

[Blackjackg]

Separating the spontaneous casters from the prepared seems like it might be dividing things too narrowly. I mean, there are at least three different ways psionics are used (manifesting, mind blades, and psionic auras, that I can think of now), and I believe more than one way to use Incarnum.

Heck, I'm a little ambivalent about dividing arcane magic from divine, since the differences are purely cosmetic.

[Psyren]

Who uses Auras?

Dragon Shaman, Marshal and Divine Mind.

[Rubik]

Dragon Shaman, Marshal and Divine Mind.Don't forget Professor Trelawney.

[TabletopGamer]

Is there any class that does the spellcaster, skill monkey, martial combat well?

[Rubik]

Is there any class that does the spellcaster, skill monkey, martial combat well?Factotum does fairly well (especially when combined with chameleon), along with a reasonably optimized bard or any T1 (and some T2) classes.

[TabletopGamer]

Factotum is good but anything a little better optimized for those things? The limited of each. What level does he have to be to go Chameleon

[Rubik]

Factotum is good but anything a little better optimized for those things? The limited of each. What level does he have to be to go ChameleonChameleon's skill prereqs require a minimum of 8 ranks, meaning the earliest you can go in is at level 6.

As I said, T1s can do this. Druids do by default (better at skills if you dip in a skill class and take Able Learner), and the others get by with their spells. Clerics do skillmonkeying really well with Lore of the Gods and whatnot, and wizards can use Planar Binding, summoning, and necromancy to do just about anything they don't want to do themselves.

[Chronos]

Factotum is the absolute best class in the game at using skills. You can find someone who's better at spells or at melee combat, but then the skills are sure to suffer.

Another option would be Mystic Ranger, especially with Sword of the Arcane Order. Melee is about as good as any of the core melee classes, skills are decent for what they've got but they lack some key skills on their list, and their spells are darned near a match for a wizard's, at least until after level 10 (when their progression mostly stops).

[TabletopGamer]

Factotum is one of my faves, but the spell casting is a little weak.
But at lvl 20 does that mean 8 spells total or does it progress as
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
For a total of 36 spells at level 20.

[thethird]

I'm personally a fan of bards for skills though. Jack of all trades + bardic knack is HUGE.

[Kennisiou]

Factotum at level 20 only has 8 spells per day.

[erikun]

Would you count the Kensai, Soulknife, and other classes that put enhancements on their own weapons as a separate system?

There is also inate abilities (SLA/PLA) and Epic Spellcasting (broken as it is).

Also, there really isn't much distinction between divine spellcasting and arcane spellcasting. Wizard and Archivist can play nearly identical. Conversely, if you want to split things up further, you also have limited-spell-list spontaneous spellcasters (Sorcerer, Bard) and full-spell-list spontaneous spellcasters (Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necro). And you also have a class that prepares its spells at the beginning of the day, but spontaneously casts any spells they have prepared (Spirit Shaman).

[Pickford]

Would you count the Kensai, Soulknife, and other classes that put enhancements on their own weapons as a separate system?

There is also inate abilities (SLA/PLA) and Epic Spellcasting (broken as it is).

Also, there really isn't much distinction between divine spellcasting and arcane spellcasting. Wizard and Archivist can play nearly identical. Conversely, if you want to split things up further, you also have limited-spell-list spontaneous spellcasters (Sorcerer, Bard) and full-spell-list spontaneous spellcasters (Beguiler, Warmage, Dread Necro). And you also have a class that prepares its spells at the beginning of the day, but spontaneously casts any spells they have prepared (Spirit Shaman).

Well, they are separated by what scrolls they can use and how they get those spells.

[Chronos]

And by whether they can cast in armor.

[Red Fel]

Is there any class that does the spellcaster, skill monkey, martial combat well?

In theory, you could do the arcane Swordsage adaptation. That gets you a martial class (Swordsage), able to swap out maneuvers for spells, and 6+Int skill points per level.

Spellcaster, skill monkey, martial combat.

[TabletopGamer]

Yeah I noticed.

I was just asking, it doesn't give good description of the spell abilities.

Anyone ever done a Psionic Factotum? maybe run it off the same system as the Erudite (Unique Power per Day)

But yes Bard is a fave of mine, I do like the Factotums Brains over Brawn ability especially for a INT focused class this can do wonders for keeping the character at least in the running.
Why they don't have max Skill points of 8+Int is beyond me for a class dedicated to skills alone.

I wish Bard was more powerful just to get more respect out there.

Seems Arcane Swordsage is the only one that seems to fit them all. But its like one Paragraph on one page you could twist that into anything you want.

[Psyren]

Is there any class that does the spellcaster, skill monkey, martial combat well?

Artificer/Psionic Artificer can easily do this, as they get Trapfinding (well, a close-enough ability anyway) and can buff themselves in a myriad of ways, e.g. Divine Power + Giant Size.

[Red Fel]

Seems Arcane Swordsage is the only one that seems to fit them all. But its like one Paragraph on one page you could twist that into anything you want.

Yeah. Unfortunately, sloppy writing in ToB means it's not a proper variant, just a proposal for an adaptation. It's the sort of thing you'd have to work out with a DM. But if you can, it sounds like it gives you precisely what you want.

Fluff it another way; make it divine casting instead of arcane. After all, Swordsages are monklike, so it makes sense that one would be deeply philosophical and contemplating the divine.

Maybe you could even fluff it for psionics, although I don't know how you'd do that.

[Chronos]

Quoth TabletopGamer:

Why they don't have max Skill points of 8+Int is beyond me for a class dedicated to skills alone.
Eh, in practice a factotum will usually have more skill points than a rogue, anyway, because you're putting your best stat into Int instead of your second or third. And they were probably also trying not to overshadow the rogue too much.

[TabletopGamer]

Scholar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar)
Is it just me of is this class really weird interpretation of the Factotum?

[Psyren]

Scholar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar)
Is it just me of is this class really weird interpretation of the Factotum?

Gah, that class is terrible. It's weak and MAD. About the only useful ability is the animal companion - a Savant with Wild Cohort could beat it.

[TabletopGamer]

Yeah most 3rd Party seem like their dumb.
I don't mind the list of adding little bits and bobbles onto a class to make them unique but give the base class something to sink their teeth into.

If I did a PF conversion I might do that to them adding in every other level of a choice from the lists.

[Psyren]

Sturgeon's Law applies to 3PP quite heavily.

I do like the Priest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/priest) class by Adamant though (Cloistered Cleric on steroids, basically.)

And of course I enjoy the Occultist (Radiance House) and all of Dreamscarred Press' work.

[thethird]

Eh, in practice a factotum will usually have more skill points than a rogue, anyway, because you're putting your best stat into Int instead of your second or third. And they were probably also trying not to overshadow the rogue too much.

For that to be true the factotum needs to have an int at least 6 points higher. Which with the way PB works is probably not going to be frequent.

[TabletopGamer]

Some are good, I enjoy the Super Genius Games Godlings and things but its a rare exception.

[Chronos]

OK, I should have said "as many as", not "more than". But a factotum can easily justify buying up to an 18 if point-buying, while a rogue will rarely have more than 14, putting them at parity. Plus all the other skill bonuses the factotum gets.

[Psyren]

OK, I should have said "as many as", not "more than". But a factotum can easily justify buying up to an 18 if point-buying, while a rogue will rarely have more than 14, putting them at parity. Plus all the other skill bonuses the factotum gets.

This - the Factotum has lower base skill points, but because they get more mileage out of their Int they're more likely to start with a higher score.