Who could resurrect Durkon?

[Cerussite]

Looking at our current situation, we haven't exactly seen a whole lot of high level divine casters. None of the clerics we've come across besides Durkon seemed to be high enough level to cast a Resurrection (a level 7 spell, so we'd need a cleric of 13th or higher level), since Raise Dead doesn't work on undead. Even Malack was only 12 Cleric. With that in mind, what choices are there for Vampire!Durkon?

I can think of:

Durkon makes a few Resurrection scrolls, that Haley/Elan can try to use on him.
Hilgya comes back, resurrects him and they live Happily Ever After (TM).


Any other ideas?

[rodneyAnonymous]

Redcloak definitely. ("Not helping!")

Maybe the nameless priest of Loki?

13 is mid-level, somewhat rare but probably a lot of people in the world can cast resurrection, one or two per major city at least. The High Priest of Thor?

It is finding someone to cast true resurrection that might be impossible.

[Cerussite]

Maybe the nameless priest of Loki?


He specifically stated he couldn't when Haley wanted to resurrect Roy, he did have a scroll for it. Wonder who's running around making those that we can't see.

13 isn't too high a level, true, but we haven't seen any non-evil clerics that fit that bill.

[Haldir]

Many of the countries still existing would probably employ clerics that could do it.

The better question is, why would they resurrect Durkon? The increased powers he has from being a vampire gives the OOTS a huge advantage against Xykon.

[Ramien]

Many of the countries still existing would probably employ clerics that could do it.

The better question is, why would they resurrect Durkon? The increased powers he has from being a vampire gives the OOTS a huge advantage against Xykon.

Well, there's his new dietary requirements - while Roy might grudgingly accept Durkon feeding on people who've already attacked, he'll be much less likely to allow feeding on innocents and the like.. There's also the fact that Redcloak is a higher level cleric with better stats who would have a decent shot at rebuking him.

If you really want to put it into a metagaming standpoint, if Durkon doesn't get changed back, he's pretty much not earning any more levels for the remainder of the story - the vampire template has an ECL of +8, so that's a lot of XP that needs to be earned before further advancement. Bad news for a primary spellcaster who was already behind in power. Durkon also loses the spontaneous cure spells, which means he'll need to prepare more of those spells and less in spells that make him more tactically flexible.

And I almost forgot - sometimes things are the right thing to do, even if it means sacrificing some temporary power.

[Jekub]

The real cuestion is: Is Vampire Durkon willing to be destroyed so that old Durkon is resurrected?, and i think the likeliest anwser is HELL NO. So the order
will have to kill him, and as he is now Durkon has good chances to fight the whole order alone.

[Cerussite]

The better question is, why would they resurrect Durkon? The increased powers he has from being a vampire gives the OOTS a huge advantage against Xykon.

Well, the Order is a number of levels below RC and Xykon. It stands that they must gain at least a couple of levels if they are to beat them, and, as Malack himself said, it's hard for a vampire cleric to find a level-appropriate challenge, meaning once the rest of the party gains a few more levels (and V, most of all, gets access to Shapechange, Prismatic Sphere and Time Stop in two levels), Vampire!Durkon will start lagging behind, especially given most of his abilities aren't too useful against an undead like Xykon, and that what he always chose to do in the battlefield - healing - is actually worse now that he is a vampire.

I'd postulate the Order should resurrect him as fast as they can so Durkon doesn't lose as much from the level drop.

[Bulldog Psion]

The real cuestion is: Is Vampire Durkon willing to be destroyed so that old Durkon is resurrected?, and i think the likeliest anwser is HELL NO. So the order
will have to kill him, and as he is now Durkon has good chances to fight the whole order alone.

I agree that Durkon is unlikely to cooperate with any effort to kill and resurrect him. And as a high level vampire cleric, who the heck is going to force him? :smallbiggrin:

[Thanatosia]

Also, although I suppose you could say he could technically return to his homeland now in any state and still fulfill the posthumously requirement, I think the general idea is that he's going to be returning to his homeland as an undead, so I wouldn't expect any slay/resurection things to occur until after the Order travels to the Dwarven Homelands - and given the other Durkon homecoming prophecy, Xykon probably won't be far behind, and likely near the end of the story (god that idea makes me sad).

[DaveMcW]

I wouldn't expect any slay/resurection things to occur until after the Order travels to the Dwarven Homelands - and given the other Durkon homecoming prophecy, Xykon probably won't be far behind

Who needs Xykon? Durkon's cleric domains are Death and Destruction.

[dancrilis]

Who needs Xykon? Durkon's cleric domains are Death and Destruction.

Or Evil and Trickery, or any combination of 2 of the four.

Unless we have seen something that confirms his domains.

EDIT: Scratch that any two of these four. Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery.
Source: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Vampire

[Bulldog Psion]

Or Evil and Trickery, or any combination of 2 of the four.

Unless we have seen something that confirms his domains.

Nothing that confirms it, but the fact that Malack served Nergal, the Lord of Death and Destruction, and the other fact that Durkon is prophesied to bring Death and Destruction with him when he returns to the dwarven lands, it sure would be a ten-ton coincidence if there wasn't some connection between these varied facts. :smallwink:

[dancrilis]

Updated the post above to rule out the death domain, it is chaos not death that vampires get access too.

Now he could be a worshipper of a deity and gain domains that way (in theory) but if that is the case his domains could be anything.
I see no reason to suspect he would begin to worship Nergal solely because Malack did.

[Kish]

I can think of:

Durkon makes a few Resurrection scrolls, that Haley/Elan can try to use on him.
Hilgya comes back, resurrects him and they live Happily Ever After (TM).


Any other ideas?
Haley says, "I don't have enough Use Magic Device to reliably use a Resurrection scroll." Durkon makes a single Resurrection scroll for a first-level temple acolyte in the nearest temple to use. Said temple acolyte protests, "But my Wisdom is only thirteen (too low to understand why the other priests seem to think being a cleric is an odd career choice for me)." Vaarsuvius casts Owl's Wisdom on the acolyte and the acolyte uses the scroll with no chance of failure, and then multiclasses and never takes a cleric level again.

[M.A.D]

Also, although I suppose you could say he could technically return to his homeland now in any state and still fulfill the posthumously requirement, I think the general idea is that he's going to be returning to his homeland as an undead, so I wouldn't expect any slay/resurection things to occur until after the Order travels to the Dwarven Homelands - and given the other Durkon homecoming prophecy, Xykon probably won't be far behind, and likely near the end of the story (god that idea makes me sad).

Durkon's posthumous is not a requirement for him to return per se, but an indication of timing made by an unrelated third-party. Technically, Durkon's requirement is that he is to never return to the Dwarven land until the late High Priest of Thor allows him, and to paraphrase his words, he's so lawful that he wouldn't return any other way.

Of course, if Durkon's alignment changed to anything other than Lawful now then he's good to go, or evil, as is the case.

[Hajutze]

Why would he need to have a death domain to fulfill the prophecy ?

He himself, as an undead, is metaphorically bringing death wherever he comes.

[2.5 cats]

We met a Dwarven High Priest in OtOoPCs. Given that Durkon will return to his homeland "posthumously" and "bring death and destruction (or something like that) with him," I'm guessing that Durkon will be resurrected by the Dwarven high Priest, but with Xykon hot on their heels.

[Kish]

Much as I would like Death and Destruction not to refer to anything Durkon does...

...I expect, rather, that the newly Lawful Evil Vampire Durkon will be less inclined to forgive the priests' treatment of him than Living Durkon would be, and more inclined to punish random dwarves, as well, for blindly following the priests as Durkon once did.

[Mastikator]

Why would he need to have a death domain to fulfill the prophecy ?

He himself, as an undead, is metaphorically bringing death wherever he comes.

Also, he might seek "revenge" on the high priest (and everyone in between) for kicking him out. Literally bringing death when he posthumously returns.

[Psyren]

High priest of Odin could do it. He will likely be in the Dwarven lands.

[Bulldog Psion]

Much as I would like Death and Destruction not to refer to anything Durkon does...

...I expect, rather, that the newly Lawful Evil Vampire Durkon will be less inclined to forgive the priests' treatment of him than Living Durkon would be, and more inclined to punish random dwarves, as well, for blindly following the priests as Durkon once did.

I concur. From the moment he was bitten, I expected him to go howling north for vengeance at some point. Hence my "Durkula is coming to town" spoof. :smallwink:

[halfeye]

Also, he might seek "revenge" on the high priest (and everyone in between) for kicking him out. Literally bringing death when he posthumously returns.
The high priest of Thor (who expelled him) is dead. The high priest of Odin predicted his bringing death and destruction with him when he returned, but didn't actually recommend any action at all to the high priest of Thor.

[Ouroborosi]

I think Durkon will be raised with no problem.

I wants to drink good dwarven ale in dwarven land and as that stuf is blessed and sometimes used as holy water.

Our cleric will want to get rid of the vampire curse post haste when he discovers that.

[dancrilis]

Only tangentially related to the topic, but feel it doesn't really require its own one.

I was thinking about this strip earlier oots0333 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html), so reread it.
Than followed up with this strip oots0877 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html).

I kind-of feel pretty bad for Durkon - especially given that his best friend has so far (admittedly not with much time - and in a tense situation) shrugged it off as a tactical bonus.

Also that Nale should have made Malack suffer a bit more.

If Durkon gets his life back I hope he has serious words with Roy if this behaviour continues - which I could see it doing as Roy doesn't want to accept that the Durkon he knew is gone.

[Sunken Valley]

No one. Durkon died in 877. He is never going to be a normal dwarf again. Remember, he asked the Oracle when he would "finally" be returning to his home land. Vampire Durkon will be destroyed and what's left of his corpse will not be returned to life. It will be buried with his grandpappy.

[Sir_Leorik]

Looking at our current situation, we haven't exactly seen a whole lot of high level divine casters. None of the clerics we've come across besides Durkon seemed to be high enough level to cast a Resurrection (a level 7 spell, so we'd need a cleric of 13th or higher level), since Raise Dead doesn't work on undead. Even Malack was only 12 Cleric. With that in mind, what choices are there for Vampire!Durkon?

I can think of:

Durkon makes a few Resurrection scrolls, that Haley/Elan can try to use on him.
Hilgya comes back, resurrects him and they live Happily Ever After (TM).


Any other ideas?

Durkon can not cast Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) on himself.


You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be resurrected.

Durkon needs to be destroyed first.


Slaying a Vampire
Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires.

Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

After Durkon is slain, all it takes is a 13th level cleric, some holy water (costs 25 gp for the powdered silver) and 10,000 gp worth of diamond dust, plus another 910 gp to cover the cost of hiring a Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices), renting a temple and paying for the caterer and the mashgiach for the l'chayim. The the cost of the scotch and whiskey for the l'chayim is not included in the 910 gp. (And given that Durkon's a Dwarf, the cost of the l'chayim could be well over 900 gp! Dwarves like beer and all, but they love single malt scotch!)

[Benthesquid]

My, admittedly very small because I'm not terribly certain of it, money is on Hilgya.

[Haldir]

Durkon can now rebuke undead, which is more effective at neutralizing undead than turn was. When you turn them, they run home to daddy for a bolstering, when you rebuke them you can attack, attempt to control, or ignore the cowering thing.

Durkon now prays to a death god, who will have more secrets and powers to grant him concerning undeath and necromancy, if he is . He is now much more effective at countering the enemies main mode of attack- Xykon, who is a savant for creating undead. Xykon's main attack method- straight up blasting, is also a specialty of V's. They now have a chance to safely land Roy in Xykon's threat range so he can chop the guy to bits.

The OOTS is facing both Tarquin's crew and Xykons, they gain quest experience for completing challenges, even backstory and character growth experience was given to Belkar after they returned from the Redmountain Gate.. Durkon will not cease gaining levels or experience for quite some time. Malack wasn't regularly fighting anyone who really presented a threat to him, so his comment about being a vampire cleric is not really applicable.

[Everyl]

No one. Durkon died in 877. He is never going to be a normal dwarf again. Remember, he asked the Oracle when he would "finally" be returning to his home land. Vampire Durkon will be destroyed and what's left of his corpse will not be returned to life. It will be buried with his grandpappy.

I'm not sure how the words of the prophecy imply that Durkon will never be destroyed and resurrected. He can return as a vampire (posthumously), then be resurrected and stay there for the rest of his life ("finally" returning home).

Not saying that's how it's going to play out, just saying that the prophecy doesn't appear to rule it out.

[Obscure Blade]

Durkon now prays to a death god, who will have more secrets and powers to grant him concerning undeath and necromancy, if he is . Actually as I understand it he doesn't have a god at all anymore, at least at the moment. He's a nondenominational negative energy powered cleric. I suspect that he'll go and choose another god eventually; Hel (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Hel) is a common speculation as to who - he could be her first priest.

[veti]

Actually as I understand it he doesn't have a god at all anymore, at least at the moment. He's a nondenominational negative energy powered cleric. I suspect that he'll go and choose another god eventually; Hel (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Hel) is a common speculation as to who - he could be her first priest.

Obviously, we don't have a lot to go on regarding Durkon's "new" character. But intuitively, I think it would be - odd - for him to abandon Thor, only to glom on to some new divine sponsor, just because of the change in his vital status.

Abandoning Thor - yes, obviously. After all, from his perspective, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Thor abandoned him.

But if he starts worshipping Hel (or Nergal, or anyone else for that matter), I'm really going to be wondering: "Why?" He's not trained to any other priesthood than Thor's, he has no connections to them. Short of Hel herself picking up the divine telephone and calling him directly - which could happen, of course, but hasn't been hinted at yet - I don't see how it would come about.

Which leaves him as a non-theistic cleric. But that would mean being a cleric "of a cause". What cause has Durkon ever shown commitment to? (I don't think "hating trees" counts.) The only thing that springs to mind is his conception of his "duty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) as a dwarf". I could see that as quite a powerful cause.

[Cerussite]

Obviously, we don't have a lot to go on regarding Durkon's "new" character. But intuitively, I think it would be - odd - for him to abandon Thor, only to glom on to some new divine sponsor, just because of the change in his vital status.

Abandoning Thor - yes, obviously. After all, from his perspective, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Thor abandoned him.

But if he starts worshipping Hel (or Nergal, or anyone else for that matter), I'm really going to be wondering: "Why?" He's not trained to any other priesthood than Thor's, he has no connections to them. Short of Hel herself picking up the divine telephone and calling him directly - which could happen, of course, but hasn't been hinted at yet - I don't see how it would come about.

Which leaves him as a non-theistic cleric. But that would mean being a cleric "of a cause". What cause has Durkon ever shown commitment to? (I don't think "hating trees" counts.) The only thing that springs to mind is his conception of his "duty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) as a dwarf". I could see that as quite a powerful cause.

He could pray for the cause of Evil, and have the IFCC answer his calls :D

[Haldir]

His cause is to destroy Xykon and figure out what his cause in the world is. I can still probably suppose that he'll be more inclined and skilled in the research of undead and counter-undead measures, being that he has a staff full of spells specifically designed by a Cleric of Negral and now has a personal interest for his own security...

I'll speculate, just for a moment, that he researches the Protection from Daylight spell for himself, adding it to his list of spells he can prepare. Theoretically, this gives him knowledge of why undead such as vampires are vulnerable to bright lights/positive energy, so he can now research a debuff or a buff that'll make Xykon even more vulnerable to V's Sunburst or any positive energy spells he himself might prepare and cast on Xykon.

[rodneyAnonymous]

...the prophecy doesn't appear to rule it out.

Not only does the prophecy not rule that out, everything Durkon does from now on (no matter what happens with death and resurrection) is posthumous, because everything he does from now on is after his death.

[Kish]

Which leaves him as a non-theistic cleric. But that would mean being a cleric "of a cause". What cause has Durkon ever shown commitment to? (I don't think "hating trees" counts.) The only thing that springs to mind is his conception of his "duty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) as a dwarf". I could see that as quite a powerful cause.
Right now, he appears to have been drafted as a cleric of the cause of vampirism.

[halfeye]

Abandoning Thor - yes, obviously. After all, from his perspective, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Thor abandoned him.
Hm, if he's looking for a reason to abandon Thor, he's probably got it in that, but if he doesn't choose that, is there any reason to think Thor has evicted him from Thor's priesthood?

[Kish]

Unless Thor ignores alignment requirements for his priests not partially but entirely, I doubt his priests are ever negative energy channelers.

[Cerussite]

Hm, if he's looking for a reason to abandon Thor, he's probably got it in that, but if he doesn't choose that, is there any reason to think Thor has evicted him from Thor's priesthood?

There will be once he prays for Thor to give him spells and it doesn't happen 'cause he's a vampire now.

[halfeye]

Unless Thor ignores alignment requirements for his priests not partially but entirely, I doubt his priests are ever negative energy channelers.
When did Thor, in comic, take much notice of anything? He is very easily distracted. I'm not saying he would choose Durkon as he is now for a new cleric, but if Durkon prayed to him honestly, truthfully and with good intentions, would he immediately disown him? I don't know the answer to that, and so far I don't think Durkon has tried, so at this point we don't have any evidence. It may be that come dusk Durkon will renew his spells in a way that implies that he cannot contact Thor, and that would be evidence, but so far it seems to me as a non-D&D-aficionado, we have speculation and not much beyond that.

[Sir_Leorik]

Durkon now prays to a death god, who will have more secrets and powers to grant him concerning undeath and necromancy, if he is.


Actually as I understand it he doesn't have a god at all anymore, at least at the moment. He's a nondenominational negative energy powered cleric.


Which leaves him as a non-theistic cleric. But that would mean being a cleric "of a cause". What cause has Durkon ever shown commitment to? (I don't think "hating trees" counts.) The only thing that springs to mind is his conception of his "duty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) as a dwarf". I could see that as quite a powerful cause.

Durkon is a non-theistic Vampire Dwarf Cleric. We don't know his new Domains, but he can choose from Chaos, Destruction, Evil or Trickery. (Death is not one of the choices (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), despite what some of the people picking over the High Priest of Odin's prophecy might tell you.) Durkon always has the option of devoting himself to a specific deity, but he has no penalty for not doing so.

As a non-theistic Vampire Cleric, Durkon promotes the cause of "Characters Screwed Over by Technicalities in the Rules through No Fault of their Own", a very bitter and angry lot, who nurse their hatred of characters that the Rules hasn't screwed over. These Clerics seek to promote Chaos in order to illustrate that the rules make no sense, to lash out at others Destructively, to nurse their grudges and let Evil fester in their hearts, and Trick others into getting screwed over by the Rules.

:smalltongue: I'm just kidding; non-theistic Vampire Clerics have no cause but spreading Evil and drinking blood. Because apparently that's what monsters do. :smallsigh:

[littlebum2002]

Durkon is a non-theistic Vampire Dwarf Cleric. We don't know his new Domains, but he can choose from Chaos, Destruction, Evil or Trickery. (Death is not one of the choices (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), despite what some of the people picking over the High Priest of Odin's prophecy might tell you.) Durkon always has the option of devoting himself to a specific deity, but he has no penalty for not doing so

Correction: Death would not be a possible domain if the OOTS universe followed the rules of D&D. But Rich has specifically said that it does not. The rules may be similar most of the time, but there is absolutely no reason to expect Rich to follow that rule


EDIT: Quote here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11)

[Great Dane]

Also, he might seek "revenge" on the high priest (and everyone in between) for kicking him out. Literally bringing death when he posthumously returns.

I want to see him become a Vampire Lord by the end of the book...if only to see what a super-bad@ss Durkon would turn out to be.

[Sir_Leorik]

Correction: Death would not be a possible domain if the OOTS universe followed the rules of D&D. But Rich has specifically said that it does not. The rules may be similar most of the time, but there is absolutely no reason to expect Rich to follow that rule


EDIT: Quote here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11)

The straightforward interpretation of the prophecy is that when Durkon returns home he will slaughter the Dwarves and destroy their lands. If you want to argue that he will embrace the worship of Heka and build a shrine to her, you're entitled to do so, but the straightforward interpretation is the best.

EDIT:

Also, he might seek "revenge" on the high priest (and everyone in between) for kicking him out. Literally bringing death when he posthumously returns.

Dear Mastikator,

Since you clearly have not heard, I write to inform you that High Priest Hurak passed away (over) three years ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)

[Kish]

Durkon has also passed away, rather more recently. It wouldn't necessarily prevent the one from seeking revenge on the other.

[Sir_Leorik]

Durkon has also passed away, rather more recently. It wouldn't necessarily prevent the one from seeking revenge on the other.

Hurak is beyond Durkon's reach. The rest of the Dwarves though...
:smalleek:

[Reddish Mage]

Right now, he appears to have been drafted as a cleric of the cause of vampirism.

His cause is more likely "continuing to exist." As it so happens, continuing to exist is perfectly aligned with his current ethos.

[jidasfire]

I don't see this being the solution, but Roy occasionally refers to his "Uncle" Myrtok, a cleric who was friends with his father. There's at least a chance he's still alive, and he's probably at least high level. Roy could theoretically call in a favor from him if the situation becomes dire enough.

[Astroturtle]

The Oracle knows a lizard man(or some sort of reptile person) that can cast Resurrection. Heck, he apparently has the cleric and his teleporting wizard buddy on retainer.

And Roy knows it: 571 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html)

Of course, convincing the Oracle to help would probably require feeding Elan a lot of sugar and then locking the him and the Oracle in a room together.

[Obscure Blade]

Hurak is beyond Durkon's reach.I suppose he could raise Hurak as some kind of sapient undead just to mock him.

:durkon:: "So, I thought you'd be interested in seeing how your attempt to evade prophecy by sending me away until I was dead worked out!" <flashes fangs>

[Haldir]

Again- Durkon has a staff full of spells related to undeath and necromancy, created by one of the best in the business. His deity is not relevant to the point that he is now more specialized at the techniques in which his enemy is the most proficient, and rebuke is arguably better than turn, not to mention a bunch of awesomely useful vampire powers. Durkon is more useful to the world, right now, as a vampire.

[Sir_Leorik]

Again- Durkon has a staff full of spells related to undeath and necromancy, created by one of the best in the business. His deity is not relevant to the point that he is now more specialized at the techniques in which his enemy is the most proficient, and rebuke is arguably better than turn, not to mention a bunch of awesomely useful vampire powers. Durkon is more useful to the world, right now, as a vampire.

Tue, but that's a very morally Neutral way of approaching the issue. For all of his sins, Belkar is a living person. He could repent (though the odds of that is unlikely), while Durkon is a Vampire, an Unholy mockery of life, fuelled by Negative Energy. Using Durkon to take on Xykon and Redcloak raises a lot more red flags than using Belkar. Right now the Order is in the middle of a crisis, and needs to take care of Tarquin and his Team. But afterwards, how comfortable will Roy be with the new status quo? What about Haley or Elan? What about Banjo? How will Banjo feel about his chosen prophet adventuring with a Vampire?

I think that the question will at least be raised (no pun intended) in Book Six: Should Roy, Haley and Elan be palling around with Durkon? Should they try to resurrect him? I can easily see Rich placing obstacles in the Order's path which either prevent them from finding a 13th level Cleric, keep them low on cash or require them to hold off on slaying Durkon. By the time the Order has a Cleric, diamond dust and is ready to stake Durkon in the heart... Durkon has discovered he enjoys being a Vampire. What's to stop Durkon from Dominating Roy, Elan and Haley? Will the Order need to resort to wacky scenarios to slay and resurrect Durkon, as if they were the A-Team trying to trick B.A. Baracus into letting them sedate him so they could strap him into the plane?

[Coat]

Obviously, we don't have a lot to go on regarding Durkon's "new" character. But intuitively, I think it would be - odd - for him to abandon Thor, only to glom on to some new divine sponsor, just because of the change in his vital status.

Abandoning Thor - yes, obviously. After all, from his perspective, it's not unreasonable to conclude that Thor abandoned him.

I can't help feeling that all the speculation about Durkon and his new religion is missing one very important point.

Rich really likes drawing Thor.

[Oko and Qailee]

With that in mind, what choices are there for Vampire!Durkon?


:belkar: "Ooh! I bet Redcloak is 17th level!"

[AKA_Bait]

I can't help feeling that all the speculation about Durkon and his new religion is missing one very important point.

Rich really likes drawing Thor.

He could still draw Thor. Picture a few panels of an angry/drunk Thor wondering why Durkon is now praying to Loki or Hel.

[Coat]

He could still draw Thor. Picture a few panels of an angry/drunk Thor wondering why Durkon is now praying to Loki or Hel.

Well indeed.

I did say that it was an overlooked factor, not that it meant Durkon would not change religions. I'm careful with me words, me. Mostly.

I think the real question is, what would it be most fun to see Thor doing about this?

Personally I've got a shiny groat riding on a drunk and maudlin Thor sitting on the front steps of ValhallaThe copy-right free home of the Northern Gods, sobbing into his Beer Of Heroes because Durkon doesn't love him any more...

[AKA_Bait]

I think the real question is, what would it be most fun to see Thor doing about this?

Personally I've got a shiny groat riding on a drunk and maudlin Thor sitting on the front steps of ValhallaThe copy-right free home of the Northern Gods, sobbing into his Beer Of Heroes because Durkon doesn't love him any more...

I'd actually rather not see Thor again at all. I like the fact that, right now, we don't know what the state of Durkon's soul is. If we were to see Thor again we would pretty much have to learn whether or not (a) Durkon's soul is trapped in the vampire, (b) Durkon's soul has been corrupted and he is the vampire, (c) Durkon's soul is already in the afterlife and the vampire is just an animated corpse that shares Durkon's memories etc.

[Reddish Mage]

Tue, but that's a very morally Neutral way of approaching the issue. For all of his sins, Belkar is a living person. He could repent (though the odds of that is unlikely), while Durkon is a Vampire, an Unholy mockery of life, fuelled by Negative Energy. Using Durkon to take on Xykon and Redcloak raises a lot more red flags than using Belkar. Right now the Order is in the middle of a crisis, and needs to take care of Tarquin and his Team. But afterwards, how comfortable will Roy be with the new status quo? What about Haley or Elan? What about Banjo? How will Banjo feel about his chosen prophet adventuring with a Vampire?

I think that the question will at least be raised (no pun intended) in Book Six: Should Roy, Haley and Elan be palling around with Durkon? Should they try to resurrect him? I can easily see Rich placing obstacles in the Order's path which either prevent them from finding a 13th level Cleric, keep them low on cash or require them to hold off on slaying Durkon. By the time the Order has a Cleric, diamond dust and is ready to stake Durkon in the heart... Durkon has discovered he enjoys being a Vampire. What's to stop Durkon from Dominating Roy, Elan and Haley? Will the Order need to resort to wacky scenarios to slay and resurrect Durkon, as if they were the A-Team trying to trick B.A. Baracus into letting them sedate him so they could strap him into the plane?

Two points here:

1) What is the alignment consequences to dealing with vampires (or being one regardless of your alignment)?

Vampires are "unholy mockeries fueled by negative energy?" What does that mean morally? Not much to me, I've asked whether negative energy is somehow inherently evil, but apparently its a part of the game world, a balance to positive energy (either of which is deadly to living beings in its pure form). As far as the "unholy" goes, it sounds like vampires are somehow associated with evil gods, that which good gods shun, or certain other upper planar beings or some sort of force...how exactly?

Basically, in the absence of particular metaphysical system explaining what it means that undead are evil and what the problem is in letting such creatures exist, then the inherent evil nature of undead creatures in general (including ghosts and the controlled time), or associating with them seems as arbitrary as the poison rules. It certainly leaves the door wide open for "its expedient to let the matter rest for now" be compatible with a good alignment.

2) Do you really see the party trying to go through great lengths trying resurrect Durkon over Durkon's dead (but much more dangerous) body?

I can see an evil vampire Durkula causing problems, but (aside from Belkar, which is a sign it isn't going to be adopted) the rest of the party pretty much shrugged off the vampire thing. They will only be at odds with Durkula in so far as Durkula starts giving them problems they cannot tolerate as good people. If Durkula starts to murder or something, the party will have to deal with it, otherwise, I don't see things devolving spontaneously over the very fact of a dead body moving around.

[Sir_Leorik]

Two points here:

1) What is the alignment consequences to dealing with vampires (or being one regardless of your alignment)?

Vampires are "unholy mockeries fueled by negative energy?" What does that mean morally? Not much to me, I've asked whether negative energy is somehow inherently evil, but apparently its a part of the game world, a balance to positive energy (either of which is deadly to living beings in its pure form). As far as the "unholy" goes, it sounds like vampires are somehow associated with evil gods, that which good gods shun, or certain other upper planar beings or some sort of force...how exactly?

Basically, in the absence of particular metaphysical system explaining what it means that undead are evil and what the problem is in letting such creatures exist, then the inherent evil nature of undead creatures in general (including ghosts and the controlled time), or associating with them seems as arbitrary as the poison rules. It certainly leaves the door wide open for "its expedient to let the matter rest for now" be compatible with a good alignment.

In 3.X, Negative Energy (and the use thereof) is inherently Evil. Undead are associated with Evil gods, Demons (especially Orcus), and people who punch bunnies. Is this an arbitrary rule? I guess so, but it's an established rule. By contrast, in 4th Edition, Necrotic Energy (Negative Energy's cheaper, non-union, Mexican stand-in) is not considered to be inherently Evil or Chaotic Evil, any more than Radiant Energy (Positive Energy's cheaper, non-union Chinese stand-in) is considered to be Lawful Good or Good. In 4E, a damage type is just a damage type.

In D&D, Good characters should not take moral shortcuts, at least not without repurcussions (even if it's only in the afterlife). Roy, Haley and Elan are taking a big risk that Durkon won't decide to feed on anyone he feels deserves to be "punished", or that he might decide to enforce his standards of Dwarven honor on those he considers scoundrels. And Banjo help them if Durkon discovers he can no longer taste beer. :smalleek:


2) Do you really see the party trying to go through great lengths trying resurrect Durkon over Durkon's dead (but much more dangerous) body?

That depends on where in the narrative they are when they have an opportunity to hammer a stake into Durkon's heart and pay to have him Resurrected. They won't do it if they're pursuing Xykon and Redcloak, but they might if they're resting, for example in the Dwarven Homelands.


I can see an evil vampire Durkula causing problems, but (aside from Belkar, which is a sign it isn't going to be adopted) the rest of the party pretty much shrugged off the vampire thing. They will only be at odds with Durkula in so far as Durkula starts giving them problems they cannot tolerate as good people. If Durkula starts to murder or something, the party will have to deal with it, otherwise, I don't see things devolving spontaneously over the very fact of a dead body moving around.

Here's a list of practical problems (unrelated to morals or ethics) regarding adventuring with a Vampire: Vampires can not cross over streams or rivers on their own (I'm getting into the debate over lakes and oceans again); they need to be carried in a coffin or wagon. Vampires need a coffin, otherwise they are destroyed when reduced to zero hit points after a few hours. That coffin needs to be carried (it might fit in Haley's bag of holding, but it still takes up weight). Vampires can not enter a dwelling unless invited in. Vampires are destroyed by exposure to sunlight (though Durkon could use the spell in the staff he inherited from Malack). Vampires can be repelled by the smell of garlic, mirrors, and holy symbols (the latter two need to presented as a Standard action, but imagine Redcloak assigning Hobgoblins or Kobolds to carry mirrors around in case the Order comes down a corridor, while archers and casters target Roy and Belkar). And Vampires have a +8 Level Adjustment.

Those are all of the practical liabilities to having Durkon remain a Vampire. What are the benefits? Strength +6, Dexterity +4, Intelligence +2, Wisdom +2 and Charisma +4. Up to five bonus feats (ones that I'm pretty confident Durkon did not have before hand). Impressive DR (magic and silver!), Fast Healing, Electricity and Cold resistances, a Dominate attack, a Blood Drain attack, an Energy Drain attack, and of course the ability to Create Spawn. (I think that's the reason the Level Adjustment for the Vampire Template is so much higher than it is for the Lich Template; Liches can't create twice their Hit Dice of Lich thralls just by biting someone.)

But that's not why most fans read "OotS"! They read for drama and adventure, and there's definite drama (and potential for tragedy) to the question of "What do we do with Durkon?"

[tomandtish]

The straightforward interpretation of the prophecy is that when Durkon returns home he will slaughter the Dwarves and destroy their lands. If you want to argue that he will embrace the worship of Heka and build a shrine to her, you're entitled to do so, but the straightforward interpretation is the best.

EDIT:


Dear Mastikator,

Since you clearly have not heard, I write to inform you that High Priest Hurak passed away (over) three years ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)

In fairness, Durkon doesn't know that, so IF he decided to go seek revenge, he would (initially) be seeking it on Hurak.

What he does once he learns Hurak is dead....?

[Sir_Leorik]

In fairness, Durkon doesn't know that, so IF he decided to go seek revenge, he would (initially) be seeking it on Hurak.

What he does once he learns Hurak is dead....?

In all fairness, Durkon doesn't know about the prophecy, doesn't know about the High Priest Hurak's death, doesn't know about his Grandpappy's death, and doesn't know the MitD ate the letter informing him about the latter two events.

I think the only Dwarf alive (or Undead) who knows the truth is the temple of Thor's Brewmaster.

[Benthesquid]

Durkon could cast Delayed Resurrect on himself and then commit suicide.

Maybe?

[Sir_Leorik]

Durkon could cast Delayed Resurrect on himself and then commit suicide.

Maybe?

I'm not familiar with Delayed Resurrect; is that using the Delay Spell Metamagic Feat? If so, wouldn't the target of the spell still need to be a dead body? And if it's a specific spell, wouldn't the target need to be a live creature?

[Reddish Mage]

In 3.X, Negative Energy (and the use thereof) is inherently Evil. Undead are associated with Evil gods, Demons (especially Orcus), and people who punch bunnies. Is this an arbitrary rule? I guess so, but it's an established rule. "

That undead are evil is clear from the Monster Manual. Negative energy usage is evil right there in core...though I'm not sure I've read that it is always the case. There aren't any details to the "moral problem" of being or associating with undead. That issue isn't identified specifically as a problem in Core.

Even given that negative energy is evil, once you have such a being created its not clear its continued existence is evil. We do have the fact that vampires have a big fat "always evil" on them due to their very nature (not true of all undead). That's a big problem, but not something that is beyond mitigating or eliminating entirely (alignment change is still possible).

Rich told us regarding fiends that he isn't opposed to a truly inhuman treatment of them, but his own treatment is anthropomorphic. If Durkon is now inclined towards evil it will be explained and responded to in very human ways. He is not going to be a being that cannot be reasoned with.

[Ramien]

That undead are evil is clear from the Monster Manual. Negative energy usage is evil right there in core...though I'm not sure I've read that it is always the case. There aren't any details to the "moral problem" of being or associating with undead. That issue isn't identified specifically as a problem in Core.

Even given that negative energy is evil, once you have such a being created its not clear its continued existence is evil. We do have the fact that vampires have a big fat "always evil" on them due to their very nature (not true of all undead). That's a big problem, but not something that is beyond mitigating or eliminating entirely (alignment change is still possible).

Rich told us regarding fiends that he isn't opposed to a truly inhuman treatment of them, but his own treatment is anthropomorphic. If Durkon is now inclined towards evil it will be explained and responded to in very human ways. He is not going to be a being that cannot be reasoned with.

Negative energy isn't inherently evil, though - the various inflict spells do not carry the evil descriptor, nor does energy drain and the Negative Energy Plane itself is not considered evil either. Negative energy has a bad PR problem due to its association with undead and the fact that evil clerics can spontaneously convert to inflict spells instead of cure. It, however, is just another building block of the universe.

[konradknox]

Oracle of the Sunken Valley has a subscription to resurrection service. Those guys can do it.

[Haldir]

I really don't see Good vrs Evil being in conflict here. Obviously the goal for each side is now to get their priests onto that planet and get whatever inhabitants are there into the ranks. The biggest threat to each of the good and evil gods is, right now, Xykon, who is the mortal most likely to turn all of the inhabitants of the Rift Planet into his own personal army/worshipers, and ascending to Godhood himself.

If Good and Evil have to align via the OOTS to stop Xykon from gaining Godhood, fine with both sides. They can squabble about the leftovers after the main threat is out of the way. Durkon, though Evil, is an easier challenge for Roy and the crew to overcome than Xykon. Roy, though Good, is an easier challenge for Durkon to overcome than Xykon....

[rodneyAnonymous]

Oracle of the Sunken Valley has a subscription to resurrection service. Those guys can do it.

Not for sure, the lizardman cleric cast raise dead, which is lower-level than resurrection.

[Kish]

Check what the Oracle says to them. He tells them they'll need to cast Resurrection next time.

That could (though I doubt it) mean that a different cleric should come, rather than merely the same cleric prepared to use a seventh-level slot instead of a fifth-level one. But either way, the people the Oracle relies on to keep him alive have the capacity to cast Resurrection.

[davidbofinger]

I suppose he could raise Hurak

Unless "passed away" means it was old age. Note there's a cause of death given for Durkon's grandfather. Good idea, though, and possible.

[davidbofinger]

that would mean being a cleric "of a cause". What cause has Durkon ever shown commitment to? (I don't think "hating trees" counts.) The only thing that springs to mind is his conception of his "duty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) as a dwarf".

Perhaps "death and destruction" could be a cause? That would be a major change of character for Durkon, though.

[Greatmoustache]

Unless "passed away" means it was old age. Note there's a cause of death given for Durkon's grandfather. Good idea, though, and possible.

i'd rather see durkula torture that charlatan's soul for eternity (mother black dragon's bind soul scrolls, xykon's black gems, whatever works actually.)

[Reddish Mage]

Negative energy isn't inherently evil, though - the various inflict spells do not carry the evil descriptor, nor does energy drain and the Negative Energy Plane itself is not considered evil either. Negative energy has a bad PR problem due to its association with undead and the fact that evil clerics can spontaneously convert to inflict spells instead of cure. It, however, is just another building block of the universe.

Sir Leorik claimed in 3rd that negative energy and its use is inherently evil (4e its different). I thought only the negative energy spells with the evil descriptor are inherently evil. The why is still a mystery, as is the "how much" and "in what context."

I think alignment implications are not the major problem with Durkula for the party. (although it could cause issues for the paladins, not necessarily any more than Belkar). The Giant isn't exactly about giving us reasons to give a group pariah status [just because he doesn't condemn the behavior towards "explicitly magical beings" doesn't mean he'll relish in it].

Hence I think these issues are going to be shrugged off, or debated away, rather than lead to serious moral concerns and/or splits among the party members:

1) Durkula's existence as Durkula (there is not going to be an immediate felt moral imperative towards resurrecting Durkon for this reason).
2) The parties association with Drukula.

but that's not to say it won't cause the party problems with other good beings.

Here is where I think the issue is:

3. Durkula is evil.

That's a problem, I continue to maintain that evil characters in Stickverse are seriously bad guys: they kill, they torture, they oppress. Durkula can be controlled the way Belkar was (perhaps more self-controlled), but its not going to be frictionless. There can also be a practical problem if Durkula needs to feed.

[Everyl]

One thing I've wondered about is whether Durkula is compelled to *stay* evil. While the Vampire template forces those who acquire it to switch to an evil alignment, "Always Evil" is allowed to have rare exceptions in D&D, and that possibility has been brought up in OotS already in the context of black dragons.

I kind of doubt it'll happen, just because the one "good" vampire who stands against all the "bad" ones is a pretty common trope in teen-romance vampire fiction. I mainly wonder if it's even possible, and if wondering about that will further complicate the Order's decisions and reactions regarding how to deal with Durkula in the long term.

[Haldir]

I suspect that Durkon will have the same reaction that Malack did when he transformed- disdain and contempt for his former life.

I don't remember where, exactly, but I do recall Rich foreshadowing this in an interview sometime. The bland, goody-goody character of Durkon lacked real depth or any sort of significant change for the first 900 comics, and needed to be shaken up. I would not be surprised if Durkon shares Rich's view of his previous character and now feels like he was a fool for so ardently following the Northern Gods, who caused him to suffer for so long in human lands and tricked him into it.

[Benthesquid]

I'm not familiar with Delayed Resurrect; is that using the Delay Spell Metamagic Feat? If so, wouldn't the target of the spell still need to be a dead body? And if it's a specific spell, wouldn't the target need to be a live creature?

It would be using the Delay Spell Metamagic feat, and I honestly have no idea whether it would work, but my theory was something like this.

Durkula casts Delayed Resurrection with himself as a target. In some versions of the game, a Resurrection Spell cast on an undead creature will force a will save or be destroyed (looking it up, I see that this apparently only applies to creatures with the specific Resurrection Vulnerability, and also only in Pathfinder. So that's the first issue with this plan.) Everybody else teams up to coup-de-gras Durkula. The spell, which previously targeted Durkula, now targets his corpse (no idea how delayed spells work if their targets die).

[Reddish Mage]

One thing I've wondered about is whether Durkula is compelled to *stay* evil. While the Vampire template forces those who acquire it to switch to an evil alignment, "Always Evil" is allowed to have rare exceptions in D&D, and that possibility has been brought up in OotS already in the context of black dragons.

I kind of doubt it'll happen, just because the one "good" vampire who stands against all the "bad" ones is a pretty common trope in teen-romance vampire fiction. I mainly wonder if it's even possible, and if wondering about that will further complicate the Order's decisions and reactions regarding how to deal with Durkula in the long term.

It is possible, there's plenty of examples just in D&D sourcebooks of even good fiends and undead creatures.

I don't think its credible or interesting for Durkula to just bounce back to Lawful Good without conflict though. Nor is there any conflict with the order traveling with a LG or even an LN vampire (they can even deal with an LE one if they keep that E part in Check). The order will continue as they have now, until further problem develop.

[Sir_Leorik]

It would be using the Delay Spell Metamagic feat, and I honestly have no idea whether it would work, but my theory was something like this.

Durkula casts Delayed Resurrection with himself as a target.

Then it won't work. The target of Raise Dead and Resurrection is "Dead Creature Touched" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm). Durkon is a creature with the Undead type, so he can't be targeted with Resurrection. Therefore, Delay Spell can't make it work either.

[Astroturtle]

There can also be a practical problem if Durkula needs to feed.

Malack was able to survive on blood garnered from the various executions in the EoB. So the CON drain seems to be <channels Tsukiko> just a natural defense vs predators, such as Paladins. Furthermore, Durkon is an adventurer. He just needs to take a walk in tall grass and something will jump out and try to kill him.

Also, does anyone know if Durkon has Scribe Scroll? Haley seems to have UMD (the wands) so he could very well arrange for his own resurrection.

[Kish]

It would be using the Delay Spell Metamagic feat,
What book is Delay Spell from, anyway?

Regardless, what I'm finding online (which may be inaccurate, of course) says it makes a spell three levels higher. That would make Resurrection a tenth-level spell. If Durkon reaches epic cleric levels before he seeks to resurrect himself, I think simpler options will be available to him. (Creating an epic Undeath to Life spell, for one.)

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Hilgya Firehelm could, since she probably follows the same auto-level up that Crystal did with Haley.

Everyone from the original Linear Guild (that wasn't repurposed by Belkar) has returned, except Hilgya. I am of the theory that since it was Durkon's First Time, it is highly unlikely he had a "Dwarven Defender" in his wallet. So, Hilgya could have become pregnant with Durkon's twin sons, Death and Destruction.

She has been out of the story long enough that the boys would be toddlers by now. And her continuing absence seems odd (to me) as everyone else has returned, or has been replaced by a duplicate.

[Kish]

And her continuing absence seems odd (to me) as everyone else has returned, or has been replaced by a duplicate.
She's had two successors in the Linear Guild: Leeky and Malack.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

She's had two successors in the Linear Guild: Leeky and Malack.

Leeky has come and gone, same as Pompey. Malack was a "loaner." Hilgya is still alive (as far as we know), has a connection of her own to the Order.

My money is still on Hilgya. True change comes from within... Becoming a vampire is something that was imposed on Durkon, returning to being a dwarf is a return to the status quo... No real change. But suddenly discovering he is a father? Yeah, that will create a real change in our favorite dwarf.

[Cerussite]

I am of the theory that since it was Durkon's First Time, it is highly unlikely he had a "Dwarven Defender" in his wallet.

Wouldn't it be more like his Dwarven Defender wouldn't be wearing any armor?

[Sir_Leorik]

What book is Delay Spell from, anyway?

Regardless, what I'm finding online (which may be inaccurate, of course) says it makes a spell three levels higher. That would make Resurrection a tenth-level spell. If Durkon reaches epic cleric levels before he seeks to resurrect himself, I think simpler options will be available to him. (Creating an epic Undeath to Life spell, for one.)

Complete Arcane, p. 77.

EDIT: Like you mentioned, one of the reasons the wacky "Durkon casts Delay Spell/Resurrection" idea won't work, is that a Delayed spell uses a slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.

[Sir_Leorik]

She's had two successors in the Linear Guild: Leeky and Malack.

She's had three successors: Leeky, Malack and Durkon himself. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Leeky has come and gone, same as Pompey.
So has the Linear Guild.

[veti]

I suspect that Durkon will have the same reaction that Malack did when he transformed- disdain and contempt for his former life.

I don't remember where, exactly, but I do recall Rich foreshadowing this in an interview sometime. The bland, goody-goody character of Durkon lacked real depth or any sort of significant change for the first 900 comics, and needed to be shaken up. I would not be surprised if Durkon shares Rich's view of his previous character and now feels like he was a fool for so ardently following the Northern Gods, who caused him to suffer for so long in human lands and tricked him into it.

If Durkon comes up with some variant of the hackneyed "All my life I've been doing what I'm told, now it's time to think for myself" speech, I for one will be very disappointed.

To me, the point of old-Durkon was that he was a proponent of an alternative type of morality, what I call "pre-modern" morality. He sees himself as, first, a part of something bigger than himself. To everyone else (with the partial exception of Redcloak) - the individual character is sovereign, and things like 'race' and 'class' are just aspects of that, not much more important than 'hairstyle' or anything else that may be written on their character sheet. If Elan were a half-elf cleric, or Roy a gnome illusionist, they could still be recognisably the same characters.

But Durkon sees (saw) things differently. Dwarfkind as a whole is bigger and more important than him. Ditto the priesthood of Thor. His duty to them is absolute, and it automatically overrides his duty to himself. That's the root of his falling out with Hilgya - she's just too like a human (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html), 'with their "If it feels groovy, do it," and their "inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness."'

Now, I think that sort of morality made an interesting counterpoint to the rest of the party. If Durkon is going to repudiate it so cheaply, that would be - disappointing, because it suggests the Giant doesn't value the moral viewpoint based on "duty", and he was just writing it into the story as a straw man to be knocked down, rather than a valid position with strengths as well as weaknesses.

Of course I have a long track record of failing to predict the Giant, and he's a good writer who can generally find ways to surprise me favourably. I'm just saying, if the twist is as you're predicting, then there should be more to it than that.

[Everyl]

All the talk of Hilgya and Durkon's morality reminds me - I forgot the other half of my musings earlier. Before, I wondered if Vampire Durkon would be compelled to remain evil. Now, I add: I wonder if destroyed-and-resurrected Dwarf Durkon would change his alignment back. Acquiring the vampire template changes your alignment to Any Evil, but losing it doesn't necessarily guarantee restoration of your old alignment.

[Reddish Mage]

All the talk of Hilgya and Durkon's morality reminds me - I forgot the other half of my musings earlier. Before, I wondered if Vampire Durkon would be compelled to remain evil. Now, I add: I wonder if destroyed-and-resurrected Dwarf Durkon would change his alignment back. Acquiring the vampire template changes your alignment to Any Evil, but losing it doesn't necessarily guarantee restoration of your old alignment.

I don't think it's explicit, but I've read sources that assume that is the way it works when a character loses the undead status. We have Malack's reference to "destroying the person he is" if Durkon were to somehow resurrect him.