DMM Chameleon Bard/Crusader build help

[Kennisiou]

So I was trying to think of a fun build to play for an upcoming game and realized I hadn't played Chameleon before. I think it's a really cool PrC, but I'm kind of unimpressed with Factotum entry (especially since I feel like Factotum's a tad feat starved already without having to spend one on Able Learner when it doesn't do anything for them), and was looking at things to do with it that take advantage of non-factotum entry. That led me to finding that you could do a ton of neat tricks with the expanded spell list for Chameleon and Divine Metamagic, although their turning is limited without another class helping it out. So I was thinking of a build that dips for one level of cloistered cleric and gets some extra turning that way and spends its other levels in other classes. Since the build's core stats are wisdom, charisma and then physical stats for me to melee fight better.

What I really need to figure out is what the other class should be. I could take a single level of expert (unearthed arcana variant) to add to my class skill list so I can get the required ranks in bluff and disguise and that would let me freely choose any other class to put in for the other three levels before I go chameleon (paladin could be interesting as a three level dip). My other option seems to be bard since it would give me some better buff effects, the skills I need, and bardic music + divine metamagic would let me be a really effective melee fighter.

So I mean I already have some ideas but I feel like I probably missed some of my other options. Are there any entry options I may have overlooked? Like Paladin or Bard variants (especially bard variants that lower my int dependency somehow -- if there's some way for me to use bardic knowledge with wisdom or just sub it out for a non-int-dependent ability that would be best), or possibly something I've overlooked from Magic of Incarnum or Tome of Magic that compliments my self/party buffing and melee fighting themes?

Any thoughts?

[Twilightwyrm]

First thing to note is, unless your DM is specifically allowing it, don't try and take the expert "variant" from UA. The class is not actually a variant, but rather part of a variant class system, and therefore crossing it with normal D&D classes doesn't technically work.
Now then, yes you would need one level of Cloistered Cleric for this, unless you're keen on taking levels in Divine Crusader. More than this, however, will depend on how exactly you see yourself fighting. Are you looking to be a tanky fighter? A level of Bard coupled with levels of Crusader and Song of the White Raven (or just Crusader if you prefer) might give good results. Or a charger perhaps? You'll then be wanting a level or more of barbarian in there, coupled with either scout, or some other means of boosting damage. Or, if you are going for just standard high damage melee, a level of bard (again with Song of the White Raven) and levels of Warblade will give you a good amount of power and versatility.
So, with this in mind, what route were you planning on taking, exactly, in terms of melee combat?
Note: One reason I am recommending ToB classes so much is that, while they are by no means the end all, be all for melee, Chameleon actually synergizes fairly nicely with them. The floating bonus feat makes you basically the only class outside of Eternal Blade that lets you have effectively spontaneous access to maneuvers, and you have the advantage of having such access to, effectively, any discipline. Want teleportation? Grab the requisite shadow hand maneuver with Martial Study. Want to break out of Prison, or overcome hardness/damage reduction? Grab the Mountain Hammer of choice from Stone Dragon with Martial Study. These and many other options become available.
Note: I'm recommending bard in this instance because it lets you quickly meet the Bluff requirement and gives you access to Inspire Courage (which you can then optimize or ignore at your leisure).

[Kennisiou]

Tanky fighter was most of where I was going with this, yeah. Crusader was something I had considered, but hadn't really thought of as that impressive since I wasn't going to be getting a ton of levels in it. But your suggestion reminded me that non-initiator classes gain 1/2 class level for initiator level, so yeah, I should be able to nab power-appropriate maneuvers as I level. Also, I had completely missed song of the white raven but man that is perfect for the build. DMMing self-buffs and occasionally ally/team buffs and then backing them up with bardic music and white raven stances seem like a great way to let me contribute to the team's combat ability while also letting me be a strong combatant myself. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Piggy Knowles]

Cloistered cleric 1 is a must. Crusader or Warblade fit in well for the remaining levels, or Incarnate for some nice defensive melds (you can pick up the higher level chakra binds via spells or your floating feat).

I'm also partial to a level dip in wizard. Abrupt jaunt, a spellbook, and most importantly, you can now take Spell Mastery/Uncanny Forethought.

[Ruethgar]

Just remember, the Chameleon's turn attempts can't be used to qualify for any options, which would include Extra Turning and DMM so you need a different source of turning. Cloistered Cleric is perhaps your best bet. Trickery and Pact domains get you the skills if you want them from cleric, but your domains are better spent getting more turning(Undeath or Elemental) and Extend Spell(from Planning).

Bloodline levels are very nice for getting earlier entry into Chameleon so your previous class doesn't matter as much. Because of how able Chameleons are with Incarnum, I would suggest going with an Azurin instead of a typical human.

[TiaC]

Chameleon is already rather MAD, so I recommend multiple turning pools. Dragonborn cleric 1/ Dread Necromancer 1/Paladin 4 or Dragonborn cleric 1/ Dread Necromancer 1 with planar touchstone feat: catalogues of enlightenment for the Sun domain from DLCS. The paladin build might want Serenity.

[Kennisiou]

Just remember, the Chameleon's turn attempts can't be used to qualify for any options, which would include Extra Turning and DMM so you need a different source of turning. Cloistered Cleric is perhaps your best bet. Trickery and Pact domains get you the skills if you want them from cleric, but your domains are better spent getting more turning(Undeath or Elemental) and Extend Spell(from Planning).

Bloodline levels are very nice for getting earlier entry into Chameleon so your previous class doesn't matter as much. Because of how able Chameleons are with Incarnum, I would suggest going with an Azurin instead of a typical human.

Yeah, that was a worry for me with the crusader build, since I wasn't sure I wanted to spend all of my cash on nightsticks. Quick question about the bolded, doesn't Divine Metamagic specify Turn Undead attempts, making the elemental or plant domains not give the proper type of turning, or is there a rule somewhere I'm missing about this?

Also, totally did not know about the planning domain. That seems like a great one to go with; although, elemental + undeath for a second turning type and then extra turning for +4 to both my turning types seems great, too, if elemental turning counts for DMM.



Chameleon is already rather MAD, so I recommend multiple turning pools. Dragonborn cleric 1/ Dread Necromancer 1/Paladin 4 or Dragonborn cleric 1/ Dread Necromancer 1 with planar touchstone feat: catalogues of enlightenment for the Sun domain from DLCS. The paladin build might want Serenity.

Planar Touchstone: Catalogues for Sun would probably not help much, since making my turning stronger doesn't help DMM. Maybe nabbing planning, undeath, or an elemental domain could help (again, assuming I'm missing something and elemental domains do count for DMM).

As for if I were to go Paladin, I doubt I'd need Serenity. I'm probably going to have more Cha than Wis, since I need high Cha to have enough turning attempts to persist all the spells I want but should only need enough wis to cast the spells, since none of them are DC-based and it doesn't matter for opposed caster checks for things like dispelling, so I should honestly be able to get by with just 12 wisdom on this build (get +2 wis on my ability boon at l4 to get access to l3-4 spells around the time I'd get them naturally and +4 wis to gain access to level 5-6 at level 7). Since the main thing I want to do with my divine spell list is just persist a bunch of buffs, I could just let wisdom sit at 12, cast my buffs, and then refocus my aptitude to something else and let the ability boon go to a now more relevant stat. Charisma is definitely going to be higher than Wis on this build. This also will probably help me be less MAD, since I can do all of my arcane or divine tricks off of just 12 int and 12 wis, freeing me up to get more cha and con and letting me dump dex (I should get most of my AC from armor and persisted spells) and str (same reason as dex), although not too hard of a dump on either.

Quick question about the extra turning feat and nightsticks: extra turning specifies that it gives +4 to all types of turning, but not all sources of the same type. Does that mean if I have three classes that all give turn undead I only get +4 turning from extra turning? Is it the same with Nightsticks? If so, then nabbing more classes for more turning doesn't seem that appealing, especially if turning elementals counts for DMM since extra turning + turning elementals and undead = 8 turning attempts (= 1 1/7 persisted spell DMM uses).



Cloistered cleric 1 is a must. Crusader or Warblade fit in well for the remaining levels, or Incarnate for some nice defensive melds (you can pick up the higher level chakra binds via spells or your floating feat).

I'm also partial to a level dip in wizard. Abrupt jaunt, a spellbook, and most importantly, you can now take Spell Mastery/Uncanny Forethought.

I've never actually played a class from magic of incarnum or even played alongside one, so I'm not sure how much I'd want to try it now. A wizard dip could be interesting, although the build is likely to be a tad feat starved if I dip too much into various classes (I already need able learner, extend spell, persistent spell and DMM persistent spell, not to mention that I'll probably want some source of extra turning and that if elemental domains count taking two of those + the extra turning feat just sounds amazing).

[prufock]

Binder with Improved Binding can select the Tenebrous vestige by ECL 5, I think. That gives you 1 turn undead every 5 rounds. So each DMM you use takes 1 less from your other TU pool.

[Kennisiou]

I've come up with a potential build here. Any suggested changes are welcomed. The stats are 32 point buy and are as follows:

Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 18

Str is dumpable because I'm not going to be meleeing a lot early on the build. By the time I am meleeing, I'll make up for my poor strength with divine metamagic. Before then I'll basically be supporting with bardsong and spells. I'll be sure to either get int-boosting gear by level 12 or I'll just put all my stat points in int to qualify for Words of Creation. My wisdom for divine spellcasting will come from my Chameleon Ability Boon class feature. High cha because more turning = more DMM = more power. Definitely willing to consider stat changes since I'm not too happy about that low dex score making my early levels dangerous. I'm definitely feeling attribute dependant on this build, since I'm going to need lots of Cha and since more Wis would help me get more bonus spells to persist my stuff sooner. Not sure if/how I'll solve this outside of just trying to nab lots of stat gear? The good news is that while I feel like I could use more of other stats, I feel like I only need a little more. An item to buff my Cha a ton and then something for a little wisdom, dex, con, and/or int (+2 is all I should really need in any of these).


{table=head]Level | Class | HD | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Skills | Feats | Special | Notes:
1 | Bard | d6 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 6 | Able Learner, Extra Music | Healing Hymn, Spellbreaker Song | Human
2 | Bard | d6 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 6 | | |
3 | Bard | d6 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 6 | Song of the Heart | | Inspire Courage at +2, Competence at +3
4 | Cloistered Cleric | d6 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | | Domain: Undeath, Domain: Planning, Knowledge Devotion, Lore, Turn Undead |
5 | Dread Necromancer | d6 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 7 | 2 | | Rebuke Undead, Charnel Touch | Disguise 8 Ranks, Bluff 8 Ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks
6 | Chameleon | d8 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 7 | 4 | Persistent Spell | Aptitude Focus 1/day |
7 | Chameleon | d8 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 7 | 4 | Flexifeat | | Chameleon bonus feat will usually be bardsong feats I meet the prereq for, extra turning if it would get me another DMM usage, or martial study for a relevant maneuver. Persistabe - Cloud of Knives, Interfaith Blessing, Bite of the Wererat
8 | Chameleon | d8 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 8 | 4 | | Mimic Class Feature 1/day |
9 | Chameleon | d8 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 9 | 4 | Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell | Ability Boon +2 |
10 | Chameleon | d8 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 9 | 4 | | Aptitude Focus 2/day (+4) | Persistable - Divine Power, Invisibility (greater), Sacred Haven, Bite of the Wereboar, Sirine's Grace (requires bonus spells at this level)
11 | Chameleon | d8 | 6 | 5 | 6 | 10 | 4 | | Mimic Class Feature 2/day |
12 | Chameleon | d8 | 7 | 5 | 6 | 10 | 4 | Words of Creation | Ability Boon +4, Double Aptitude | Persistable - Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Greater Blink, Righteous Might, Lord of the Sky, Bite of the Weretiger (requires bonus spells at this level). Inspire Courage doubled (+4)
13 | Chameleon | d8 | 8 | 5 | 6 | 10 | 4 | | Rapid Refocus |
14 | Chameleon | d8 | 8 | 6 | 7 | 11 | 4 | | Mimic Class Feature 3/day | Persistable - Bite of the Werebear, Nixie's Grace, Empyreal Ecstasy (requires bonus spells at this level)
15 | Crusader | d10 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 11 | 4 | Extra Granted Maneuver | Steely Resolve 5, Furious Counterstrike |
16 | Chameleon | d8 | 10 | 8 | 7 | 11 | 4 | | Ability Boon +6, Aptitude Focus 3/day (+4) |
17 | Crusader | d10 | 11 | 9 | 7 | 11 | 4 | | Indomitable Soul |
18 | Crusader | d10 | 12 | 9 | 8 | 12 | 4 | Song of the White Raven| Zealous Surge|
19 | Crusader | d10 | 13 | 10 | 8 | 12 | 4 | | Steely Resolve 10 |
20 | Crusader | d10 | 14 | 10 | 8 | 12 | 4 | | | Inspire Courage reaches +6 [/table]


Some explanations: I wound up going with the domains listed here and the 1 level dread necro dip because DMM's RAW is that only turn undead attempts apply. I'll talk to the DM about their interpretation and if they believe other turning is meant to apply I'll wind not taking the dip and instead nabbing a crusader level there instead and taking an elemental domain > undeath domain. From there I'll try to fit extra turning in somewhere (or maybe just get a ring or something that grants the benefit of the feat --maybe multiple. Depending on cost this could be more efficient than nightsticks).

The spells persistable lists in the table just list the interesting ones, I am absolutely not going to try to have all of them persisted at once, since that would be way too big a resource commitment for too small of a benefit.

That said, I'd like to be able to persist at least: Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Bite of the Werecreature/Righteous Might, and maybe one or two other spells. Depending on how charisma gain interacts with extra turning (do I get it immediately), Nixie's Grace could also be a permanent fixture. With only two classes contributing to my turning pool, this looks pretty hard to pull off, but sort of becomes a question of resources. I don't think that two nightsticks to ensure I could cast Divine Power, RWotF, or Bite of the Werebear would at all be a bad investment of 15,000 gold (cost of 2 nightsticks) since their benefits are a lot larger than I can expect for an item of comparable price.

The crusader > Paladin decision as well as the subfocus on bardic music was made to give my character something to do for the party at early levels and then scale that utility into the late game as well. I could always go Paladin 4 for even more turning and just sit at one bard level (or go rogue/expert to dodge alignment issues if I feel like my DM won't like me transitioning alignments) to make the build focus even more on DMM, but I feel like the maneuvers and the bardic music subfocus add to my versatility and are probably stronger than getting 3 + cha more turning attempts and the other paladin class features, although if someone wants to compare the amount of additional things I can DMM by gaining paladin's turning (not to mention the 5 feats I'd not be spending this way and what else I could do with them) to the benefits of my maneuvers, stances, and bardic music I'd be up for it.

Edit: Also, if anyone knows a way other than heighten spell to make my effects harder to dispel I'd be interested in that as well, especially if I wind up relying on lord of the skies for flight rather than magic items.