[PF] Basics of Archery

[Yora]

I am planning a campaign in which I want to have some "heroic NPC" archers among the opponents, but I've never really given much thought to building characters that focus on bows.
Except for getting Deadly Aim quickly, what are some other basics for making archery characters at low to mid levels (with only light amounts of cheese)? I'm not looking for anything especially powerful, mostly things to make such encounters more varied that getting 1d8 points of damage every so often.

[Arc_knight25]

Deadly Aim and Clustered Shots are both good.

Deadly Aim is Power Attack for bows. Clustered shots make all of the hits on a creature count as 1 attack for DR purposes.

Rapid Shot of course add in a Haste spell and machine gun away.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, a level 4 fighter with deadly aim, weapon focus, rapid shot, and weapon specialization isn't a bad build for a low level NPC. Put them is brestplates and give them composite longbows.

[Eldariel]

Mostly Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim. Especially Rapid Shot; Deadly Aim kicks in a bit later. Extra attacks are always a good thing tho. In PF Fighter actually gives you something decent for an Archer (the weapon group) so depending on how high level these guys are supposed to be, that might be an option. Archer archetype also offers few cute tricks even if it's not all that amazing power-wise.

Ranger is also fine, especially vs. their Favored Enemy. They've got the skills to make ambushes and such happen so probably the most frightening non-caster Archer to face, especially early on. Zen Archer is the third option (not quite as well-off skill-wise as Ranger, but functional), and then there's always Cleric Archer. Fighter/Ranger multiclass is also quite decent.


Interesting stuff comes mostly from the abilities of the classes; you get AoOs, arrows behind corners, ranged combat maneuvers and such. There are few feats for some neat tricks too.

[Person_Man]

1) Accept the fact that archery is weaker then melee combat, spells, psionics, maneuvers, soulmelds, vestiges, etc. It cannot generate attacks of opportunity. The damage/investment isn't very efficient (you can get reasonably high numbers, but it takes a lot to do so). The most useful Feat/Talents/Ki Powers/etc don't work with it it. It's more difficult to trigger Sneak Attack using it (and you're limited to 30 ft anyway, so why bother). If you use magical ammo consistently (which is more or less required if you want to keep your damage/effects useful at higher levels) you'll consistently be burning through gp more quickly then your allies. You're basically choosing an inferior option.

2) Having said that, it's not a terrible backup option for a Tier 1-2 class that doesn't want to burn through it's daily resources. If you're built around staying away from your enemy and casting spells or whatnot, it's not a bad idea to stay away from enemies and shoot arrows when you don't want to waste spells on a combat that's basically been won.

[Keneth]

1) Accept the fact that archery is weaker then melee combat, spells, psionics, maneuvers, soulmelds, vestiges, etc. It cannot generate attacks of opportunity. The damage/investment isn't very efficient (you can get reasonably high numbers, but it takes a lot to do so). The most useful Feat/Talents/Ki Powers/etc don't work with it it. It's more difficult to trigger Sneak Attack using it (and you're limited to 30 ft anyway, so why bother). If you use magical ammo consistently (which is more or less required if you want to keep your damage/effects useful at higher levels) you'll consistently be burning through gp more quickly then your allies. You're basically choosing an inferior option.

We're talking about Pathfinder. Most of this isn't necessarily true.

[Fouredged Sword]

Note he said this is for low level NPC's, so lets keep it simple. Ranger 4 or Fighter 4 works just fine. Deadly aim and rapid shot are good options. Point blank shot and precise shot are not wasted feats ether.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Note he said this is for low level NPC's, so lets keep it simple. Ranger 4 or Fighter 4 works just fine. Deadly aim and rapid shot are good options. Point blank shot and precise shot are not wasted feats ether.

A Fighter with the basic archery feats and and composite bows will deal noticeable damage but shouldn't over shadow the party members. If you want something a little bit more diverse, use the Archer archetype and start making ranged combat maneuver checks.

[Eldariel]

Note he said this is for low level NPC's, so lets keep it simple. Ranger 4 or Fighter 4 works just fine. Deadly aim and rapid shot are good options. Point blank shot and precise shot are not wasted feats ether.

A low-level NPC is very unlikely to have the attack bonus to make Deadly Aim worthwhile. As painful as it is, Weapon Focus and Spec are probably the feats to take in this scenario. However, "low level" was not defined; the answer for 5-6 is different from the answer to 3-4 far as class composition goes.

[Yora]

I don't require specific builds. I mostly want to get an understanding about what abilities are worthwhile and what synergies result from their interaction, and also what tactics to use with such characters.

[Fax Celestis]

Four levels of Marksman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/marksman) would do the trick. You could even flat-out ignore their powers if you don't want to deal with psionics. However, at 4th level, they only have 2 powers known and 5-8 pp (based on his Wis score), so you could basically treat it like a sorcerer with two first-level spells known and five spells/day. If they're NPCs, you can probably even get away with just fully augmenting (treating like you spent 4 PP) every manifestation. A few good options for powers are bolt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/b/bolt), deflect missiles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/d/deflect-missiles), offensive prescience (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/prescience-offensive), and prevenom weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/prevenom#TOC-Prevenom-Weapon) (watch out, though, prevenom weapon can kill people if left unchecked)

[Fouredged Sword]

Generally an archer wants more shots a round, and as much damage per shot as possible. This means a Str/Dex based character with deadly aim, rapidshot, and a composite bow.

[Person_Man]

We're talking about Pathfinder. Most of this isn't necessarily true.

I disagree.

Pathfinder offers more Feats to support Archery. It's undoubtedly better then 3.5 Archery.

But you're still going to end up with a lower average damage output then melee. You have duel Str/Dex dependency. A bow deals less damage then a greatsword or glaive. You can't multiply the damage with a lance or Spirited Charge. And you can't benefit from Feats that enhance Power Attack, such as Tiger Pounce (Shock Trooper), Dazing Assault, Raging Brutality, etc.

You still have to waste two Feats (or comparable class abilities which grant those Feats) on Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot in order to get access to most archery Feats.

You're generally not going to be triggering attacks of opportunity (and thus will generally have fewer attacks per round).

You can't use most Combat Maneuvers with ranged attacks.

And there are very few class abilities which support archery. Whereas there are a ton of class abilities that support melee.

[Barstro]

Just my speculation. Hopefully others will point out where I am wrong;

Given that you know the party and control the NPCs, my gut says that going Ranger is the best option just because you know that Favored Enemy will work.

You also have the opportunity to build a team instead of just individual archers. Teamwork feats might help, or having one work only on debuffing the PCs, etc.

[Saph]

I disagree.

Pathfinder offers more Feats to support Archery. It's undoubtedly better then 3.5 Archery.

But you're still going to end up with a lower average damage output then melee. You have duel Str/Dex dependency. A bow deals less damage then a greatsword or glaive. You can't multiply the damage with a lance or Spirited Charge. And you can't benefit from Feats that enhance Power Attack, such as Tiger Pounce (Shock Trooper), Dazing Assault, Raging Brutality, etc.

Counterpoints to that:

You don't have to move to full attack.
You don't have to be in melee range of the enemies to full attack.
You can engage enemies from far beyond their effective range.
You can engage enemies from places they can't reach with melee attacks at all, e.g. up in the air or on the other side of a chasm.
Did I mention not having to move to full attack yet?
Archery has to have a lower damage output than melee, otherwise melee would be pointless. Range is a big deal.

[Slipperychicken]

Max ranks in Ride, then use a mount to be ridiculously fast/mobile, and stay outside charge range (~80-100ft should be fine) while pounding opponents with full attacks. Yeah, you can have your mount move normally while pulling ranged full attacks (no penalty for single move or less, -4 for double move, -8 for Run action). Since your attacks take place in the middle of your movement, this allows you to pop out from behind a wall, fire, then go back behind the wall in the same action. You don't even need feats for this; just hop on a mount and start laughing at dismounted melee characters.

As for which mount (assuming combat-trained, and used for a Medium rider) is best for a low-level character living on heroic NPC wealth:

Heavy riding horse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/horse/heavy-horse) (50ft land speed) is 300gp. This is your basic mount; it's as fast as any other horse, but is somewhat more tanky.

Giant Vultures (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/vulture/vulture-giant) are 1125gp for 50ft fly speed w/ average maneuverability. It is comparitively tanky with 42hp and AC 17, and comes with a nasty bite if anyone gets too close. This is a good choice if you have the gold for it.

Dire bat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bat/bat-dire) is 450gp, but offers 40ft fly speed at good maneuverability. This gets my recommendation for the combination of low price, flight, the ability to hover in place, and a decent fly speed.

[Squirrel_Dude]

First 3 feats:
Point-blank shot
Deadly Aim
Rapid Shot

Next 2 feats
Precise Shot
Clustered Shot

Other feats you may want
Many Shot
Point-blank Master
Snap Shot -> Greater Snap Shot & Combat Patrol*

Feats you don't want
The ones that allow you to make bull rush/maneuver attempts with your bow. These can be somewhat handy at early levels, but they aren't helpful at higher levels as your bonus won't be able to keep up with CMD.

*If you're going to take the chain at all, go all the way. They'll give you a total threatening range of 35 ft.

[Raven777]

Get on a horse
Horse archers are amazing
They move AND full attack
And... taste just like... raisins?

[Zubrowka74]

...You still have to waste two Feats (or comparable class abilities which grant those Feats) on Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot in order to get access to most archery Feats...

Archetypes can give some of these for free. And remember that in PF there's also more feats given.

[Keneth]

But you're still going to end up with a lower average damage output then melee.

True, optimized melee builds will always be better. But for an average mook, that's not necessarily true.


You still have to waste two Feats (or comparable class abilities which grant those Feats) on Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot in order to get access to most archery Feats.

Feats are there to be wasted. And neither of those feats is bad.


You're generally not going to be triggering attacks of opportunity (and thus will generally have fewer attacks per round).

Since you don't have to move around, you'll be able to make full attacks more often, so that's statistically false.


You can't use most Combat Maneuvers with ranged attacks.

You wouldn't want to in most cases anyway. But even if you're using a melee weapon, you still need to invest several feats to be anywhere close to effective with a combat maneuver by RAW.


And there are very few class abilities which support archery. Whereas there are a ton of class abilities that support melee.

There are plenty of class abilities that support archery. To the point where I'm having a really hard time coming up with good and original ideas for new stuff. :smallconfused:

[Zubrowka74]

There are plenty of class abilities that support archery. To the point where I'm having a really hard time coming up with good and original ideas for new stuff. :smallconfused:

You don't even need the Divine Hunter Archetype to apply Smite bonus to your ranged attacks.

[Person_Man]

Archetypes can give some of these for free. And remember that in PF there's also more feats given.


Feats are there to be wasted. And neither of those feats is bad.

You're never getting anything "for free" and there is no positive reason (from an optimization point of view, at least) to ever "waste" a Feat on a crud option. To get those bad Feats, you're giving up the opportunity to get other, much better Feats or class abilities.

And Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are undeniably bad. A situational +1 bonus to anything is a waste of a Feat, especially when it encourages you to attack while close to enemies, when ranged builds should be trying to stay far way from enemies. And -4 penalty to shooting at enemies engaged in melee is a crud rule that shouldn't exist, as it makes ranged weapons for builds that don't specialize in it a much worse option. The fact that Precise Shot negates this penalty makes it a Feat Tax, not a useful option.




You wouldn't want to in most cases anyway. But even if you're using a melee weapon, you still need to invest several feats to be anywhere close to effective with a combat maneuver by RAW.

My point is that in melee, you could spend a couple of Feats on improving Combat Maneuver, and now you have an additional battlefield control option. Archery has no such option.



There are plenty of class abilities that support archery. To the point where I'm having a really hard time coming up with good and original ideas for new stuff. :smallconfused:

I've seen some excellent homebrew archery material around the forums. I have yet to see any solid class abilities that made archery a superior option over melee. (Though as I previously said, it's a good backup option for a class that otherwise has a lot of resources to throw around.



Counterpoints to that:

You don't have to move to full attack.
You don't have to be in melee range of the enemies to full attack.
You can engage enemies from far beyond their effective range.
You can engage enemies from places they can't reach with melee attacks at all, e.g. up in the air or on the other side of a chasm.
Did I mention not having to move to full attack yet?
Archery has to have a lower damage output than melee, otherwise melee would be pointless. Range is a big deal.

I agree with your counterpoints. But as a counter-counter point, I'd say that my basic argument still holds merit. You're basically accepting lower damage and fewer tactical options in exchange for the convenience of ranged attacks.

But whether or not that trade-off is worthwhile depends heavily on your DM. If you fight a lot of battles outdoors where you could theoretically position yourself 65+ feet away from enemies before you start fighting, then yeah, ranged combat can be a great deal. If your party spends most of it's time fighting in cramped dungeon-y settings, it's a big waste.

[3WhiteFox3]

I agree with your counterpoints. But as a counter-counter point, I'd say that my basic argument still holds merit. You're basically accepting lower damage and fewer tactical options in exchange for the convenience of ranged attacks.

But whether or not that trade-off is worthwhile depends heavily on your DM. If you fight a lot of battles outdoors where you could theoretically position yourself 65+ feet away from enemies before you start fighting, then yeah, ranged combat can be a great deal. If your party spends most of it's time fighting in cramped dungeon-y settings, it's a big waste.

It's also much easier to get extra attacks with archery. Rapid shot and Manyshot don't really have a comparison point for melee; using them together you get 3 attacks at -2 not counting BAB. The closest is TWF which has big issues thanks since even by going up the chain, you're still looking much worse than the Manyshot fighter, since Greater TWF only gets you 2 attacks at -2 and a third at -7 not counting BAB, TWF also requires you to optimize what weapons you use, and requires more wealth investment since you'll need two separately enchanted weapons.

[Fouredged Sword]

For a hero who fight monsters basically one on one archer is a hard row to plow.

For a NPC squad of 10 or so guys... That changes the math. Suddenly you want to stay out of melee range, and the group does enough damage to kill a target in one round. You want to fight up a wall away from the front line, and you can do that consistently because you are a town guard who sits on said wall all day looking for invaders.

[Keneth]

A situational +1 bonus to anything is a waste of a Feat, especially when it encourages you to attack while close to enemies, when ranged builds should be trying to stay far way from enemies.

Arguably, an exceedingly large portion of encounters happens to be limited to a 30-foot radius field or smaller. Dungeons, cities, forests, clearings, etc. are all reasonably confined spaces. And you don't want to be far from your allies anyway, archer or not. I'm not saying there won't be situations where the feat won't see any use, but in most cases it's mechanically better than weapon focus.


And -4 penalty to shooting at enemies engaged in melee is a crud rule that shouldn't exist, as it makes ranged weapons for builds that don't specialize in it a much worse option. The fact that Precise Shot negates this penalty makes it a Feat Tax, not a useful option.

Since D&D at least attempts to simulate reality, I respectfully disagree that shooting into a melee and expecting to accurately hit your target shouldn't incur a penalty. Being able to do so reliably is nothing short of what I'd consider to be a feat in real life. Whether it's balanced or not is a different matter though, but D&D 3.X isn't meant to be balanced.


My point is that in melee, you could spend a couple of Feats on improving Combat Maneuver, and now you have an additional battlefield control option. Archery has no such option.

I contend that it doesn't need such options or there would be little reason to go melee other than damage output (which is perfectly decent on a properly built ranged character). Nevertheless, crowd control options are nice to have and archers have very few of them, I wouldn't mind a few more 1st party options either.


But whether or not that trade-off is worthwhile depends heavily on your DM.

You're forgetting that this discussion is about a group of NPCs, not a player character. While archery may be a subpar option in your opinion, there is no shortage of effective builds in Pathfinder, tried and tested, and they can work wonders on NPCs.

[Fax Celestis]

It's also much easier to get extra attacks with archery. Rapid shot and Manyshot don't really have a comparison point for melee; using them together you get 3 attacks at -2 not counting BAB. The closest is TWF which has big issues thanks since even by going up the chain, you're still looking much worse than the Manyshot fighter, since Greater TWF only gets you 2 attacks at -2 and a third at -7 not counting BAB, TWF also requires you to optimize what weapons you use, and requires more wealth investment since you'll need two separately enchanted weapons.

Manyshot is Whirlwind Attack, Rapid Shot is TWF.

[Psyren]

So Precise Shot is a waste, because folks who don't take it can't shoot precisely? :smallconfused: I don't understand your point at all Person_Man. Saph pretty much hit this on the head.

Also, you CAN AoO with ranged attacks in PF, you just need the Snap Shot line.

[Raven777]

Also, to Rapid Shot, you only need your one bow. TWF requires investing in a second weapon.

Archery is good in PF, on par with and often surpassing melee. Especially since the iconic archer class, the Ranger, also brings in spell support with things like Gravity Bow.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Manyshot is Whirlwind Attack, Rapid Shot is TWF.

No, it is in no way whirlwind, that analogy doesn't work in 3rd edition or Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/prd/feats.html#_combat-feats). Your thinking of the arcane archer ability hail of arrows.

[Fax Celestis]

No, it is in no way whirlwind, that analogy doesn't work in 3rd edition or Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/prd/feats.html#_combat-feats). Your thinking of the arcane archer ability hail of arrows.

Whirlwind Attack: make multiple attacks in a round, limited according to the number of creatures you threaten. At the end of a three feat chain.
Manyshot: make multiple attacks in a round, one per enemy, limited according to your BAB. At the end of a three feat chain.

Two-Weapon Fighting: take a -2 penalty, gain an extra attack in a round with an off-hand weapon as a full-attack.
Rapid Shot: take a -2 penalty, gain an extra attack in a round with a ranged weapon as a full-attack.

Sounds pretty similar to me.


Also, to Rapid Shot, you only need your one bow. TWF requires investing in a second weapon.

Archers invest in two weapons as well, just one of their weapons (ammunition) is expendable.

[Frosty]

Fax, I think you misread manyshot.
When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.It is in no way making one attack per enemy.

Counterpoints to that:

You don't have to move to full attack.
You don't have to be in melee range of the enemies to full attack.
You can engage enemies from far beyond their effective range.
You can engage enemies from places they can't reach with melee attacks at all, e.g. up in the air or on the other side of a chasm.
Did I mention not having to move to full attack yet?
Archery has to have a lower damage output than melee, otherwise melee would be pointless. Range is a big deal.Agreed. Being able to consistently get more full-attacks is definitely powerful.

BTW, good to see you again. Would you consider updating the Summoner handbook for Ultimate Magic options? I haven't actually seen a guide for Synthesist Summoners yet!

[Keneth]

Manyshot: make multiple attacks in a round, one per enemy, limited according to your BAB. At the end of a three feat chain.

Manyshot only fires an extra arrow on your first attack in PF.


Archers invest in two weapons as well, just one of their weapons (ammunition) is expendable.

They don't have to, and it's better that they don't. Buying or making magic arrows is wasteful at best until high levels.

[3WhiteFox3]

Whirlwind Attack: make multiple attacks in a round, limited according to the number of creatures you threaten. At the end of a three feat chain.

Manyshot: make multiple attacks in a round, one per enemy, limited according to your BAB. At the end of a three feat chain.


This is incorrect, in PF Manyshot fires off two arrows at your highest attack bonus, both hit with one attack roll. Stacks with Rapid Shot. Also the chain for Whirlwind attack is pointless and has bad or only situational feats that lack much synergy with each other, it also has a five feat chain (four pre-reqs plus itself), not three. Manyshot works with it's entire chain (even if Point Blank shot is only useful some of the time) and stacks with both Rapid Shot and BAB to get oodles of attacks.

edit: Double Ninja'd!



Two-Weapon Fighting: take a -2 penalty, gain an extra attack in a round with an off-hand weapon as a full-attack.
Rapid Shot: take a -2 penalty, gain an extra attack in a round with a ranged weapon as a full-attack.


Misleading because Two Weapon Fighting doesn't stack with Whirlwind Attack while Rapid Shot stacks with Manyshot. Manyshot is better compared to Improved Two Weapon fighting anyway, since Manyshot is essentially one extra attack with no penalty and taken after Rapid Shot in the feat chain. ITWF does the same but with a -5 additional penalty. The only advantage the TWF chain has is Greater Two Weapon Fighting, but that makes an attack with a -10 additional penalty. TWF also requires multiple weapons to enchant which is expensive and still suffers from all of the problems of melee vs archery.


Archers invest in two weapons as well, just one of their weapons (ammunition) is expendable.

Magic ammunition is cheap and can actually be used as an advantage (for example, pick up a few arrows of each major bane type or of different materials in case of opponents with DR, if I wanted to do that as melee I'd need a crapton of expensive weapons) until then you can get by with a bow. Mundane ammunition is not even worth tracking after a level or two.

[Person_Man]

So there are lots of ways to gain Pounce and Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358). If you accept that Pathfinder is backwards compatible with 3.X (which was a publicly (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Pathfinder_RPG_playtest) stated (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/2008/march) design goal), then every Tier 3 or higher class gets access to it by low-mid levels.

Even if you're dealing with a Pathfinder only game, there are still 19 ways on the list (and probably more that I'm missing - it's been a few months since I've done a serious update).

I'm not disputing any of Saph's points about when archery is useful, which as I noted, are correct (with the caveat that it's most useful when in open terrain and least useful in closed spaces). I'm just saying that by default, melee will deal more damage and has more options then archery and has a built in Feat Tax which is required for it to function correctly.

[Keneth]

And yet very few of those are actually applicable in any given situation. Free movement, and especially pounce, are far from easy to get in a Pathfinder game.

And since we're talking about feat tax, being able to move and attack requires a pretty huge resource tax as well just to be able to attack normally.

[Sayt]

Hippogriff Rider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/sable-company-marine) is very cool, and gets you A) Flight at level 4 (100 ft.), B) Full Attacks while moving.

So, Say, Human Ranger (Hippogriff Rider 4),
H:Point-Blank Shot
R1: Precise shot
R2(CSF): Mounted Archery or Mounted Combat
R3: Rapidshot
R5: Boon Companion

Also, I wouldn't rush into being able to Rapidshot and Deadly aim at the same time, at level four you'd be eating a -4 penalty on your attacks. I'd stick to rapidshot for a while, and pick up Deadly Aim later