Help me with helping a friend.

[Guyver87]

The group I'm playing with is rather big (9 people, with DM and his PC included), and consists primarily of total MinMaxers. Because of that we are quite powerful, but thanks to DM's ingenuity, and creativity we have yet to break the campaign.

It's all fun, and stuff, but one of the PC's is terribly weak compared to others, as player who created him is playing D&D 3.5 for the first time, and doesn't really know what is good, and what to avoid.

He is playing 9th level Fighter with Half-Fiend Template, geared towards fighting two weapons, and using heavy armor... So yeah, probably the worst strategy for a Fighter, and a huge LA as an icing on the cake.

In a party where we have two Wizards (Debuff focused Wizard/Shadow Adept/Archmage, and Wizard/Incantatrix planning to become a Lich), Cleric using Persistent Spells to make himself nearly indestructible, Druid, highly optimized blaster Psion, Aasimar Paladin/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator hybrid, Factotum, and Charger Warblade.

DM said he would simply kill off the Half-Fiend Fighter, and let player to create something better, but the player himself is against that. Instead he wanted to re-train his PC per Player's Handbook II rules, or to take levels in some nice PrC.

So, here is my request to You all: Does anybody have any idea, how to make this character into something, that could actually be relevant, compared to the rest of the party?

Thanks in advance.

[Red Fel]

The group I'm playing with is rather big (9 people, with DM and his PC included), and consists primarily of total MinMaxers. Because of that we are quite powerful, but thanks to DM's ingenuity, and creativity we have yet to break the campaign.

It's all fun, and stuff, but one of the PC's is terribly weak compared to others, as player who created him is playing D&D 3.5 for the first time, and doesn't really know what is good, and what to avoid.

He is playing 9th level Fighter with Half-Fiend Template, geared towards fighting two weapons, and using heavy armor... So yeah, probably the worst strategy for a Fighter, and a huge LA as an icing on the cake.

In a party where we have two Wizards (Debuff focused Wizard/Shadow Adept/Archmage, and Wizard/Incantatrix planning to become a Lich), Cleric using Persistent Spells to make himself nearly indestructible, Druid, highly optimized blaster Psion, Aasimar Paladin/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator hybrid, Factotum, and Charger Warblade.

DM said he would simply kill off the Half-Fiend Fighter, and let player to create something better, but the player himself is against that. Instead he wanted to re-train his PC per Player's Handbook II rules, or to take levels in some nice PrC.

So, here is my request to You all: Does anybody have any idea, how to make this character into something, that could actually be relevant, compared to the rest of the party?

Thanks in advance.

Well, first things first, and I'm sure you've noticed, Fighter is an underpowered class, especially compared with the rest of your party. If he's thinking of rebuilding, I would suggest rebuilding out of the class entirely, or at least limiting Fighter levels to a handful, in multiples of two. (Remember, every two fighter levels yields a delicious bonus feat.)

You already have a Warblade and a Crusader, but if he really wants a melee character, Tome of Battle is precisely the book at which he should be looking. Specifically, if he wants a heavily-armored tank of a character, Crusader is an excellent option.

That said, in such a large, diverse party, it's hard not to feel redundant. You have Wizards, Druid, Cleric and Psion, so you're already facing outrageous levels of power; you also already have a Warblade and a Crusader/RKV, so their melee power is substantial. Finally, you have a Factotum in there, shoring up any possible holes; it's no wonder the Fighter feels underwhelming.

He could play another Crusader, of course. You have two Wizards; it's not like redundancy is fatal. Further, two characters with Iron Guard's Glare get good synergy off of one another, and two characters with White Raven Tactics completely break action economy. Maybe take a dip into one of the other PrCs in the book, such as Bloodclaw Master or Jade Phoenix Mage. On that note, maybe he'd consider a more gish-y build.

Another alternative is to make the character more savage. You say your Warblade is a charger, but is he a natural attacks monstrosity? Give your now-ex-Fighter levels of Totemist, and give him lots of natural weapons soulmelds; add to that some charging feats and Multiattack, and watch him completely unload on enemies. Even your Warblade might turn envious.

[Trasilor]

Another way to go is the Bard and focus on pumping up that inspire courage (although being half-fiend probably rules out words of creation feat).

Having someone help everyone else means you always have something to do, everybody likes you and you can share in the victories.


He can even stay fairly combat oriented by having a decent STR, a 2-handed weapon (via warblade class), power attack, knowledge devotion, and a pumped up inspire courage.

Song of the white raven can work nicely as a bard/warblade feat.

[lytokk]

Psychic Warrior. Its not normally a class I'd suggest to anyone, but if he wants to stay as a 2 weapon fighter with heavy armor, PsyWar has the feats to do it and give him those powers as a boost to his own.

[turbo164]

Similar to the Bard suggestion, Marshall or Dragon Shaman would give him a front-line combatant that helps make his teammates more broken.

If he wants killshots himself, well that takes a bit more effort :smallwink:

[Ortesk]

The group I'm playing with is rather big (9 people, with DM and his PC included), and consists primarily of total MinMaxers. Because of that we are quite powerful, but thanks to DM's ingenuity, and creativity we have yet to break the campaign.

It's all fun, and stuff, but one of the PC's is terribly weak compared to others, as player who created him is playing D&D 3.5 for the first time, and doesn't really know what is good, and what to avoid.

He is playing 9th level Fighter with Half-Fiend Template, geared towards fighting two weapons, and using heavy armor... So yeah, probably the worst strategy for a Fighter, and a huge LA as an icing on the cake.

In a party where we have two Wizards (Debuff focused Wizard/Shadow Adept/Archmage, and Wizard/Incantatrix planning to become a Lich), Cleric using Persistent Spells to make himself nearly indestructible, Druid, highly optimized blaster Psion, Aasimar Paladin/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator hybrid, Factotum, and Charger Warblade.

DM said he would simply kill off the Half-Fiend Fighter, and let player to create something better, but the player himself is against that. Instead he wanted to re-train his PC per Player's Handbook II rules, or to take levels in some nice PrC.

So, here is my request to You all: Does anybody have any idea, how to make this character into something, that could actually be relevant, compared to the rest of the party?

Thanks in advance.

How dedicated to half fiend is he? If not at all, and he wants to hold his own in a group with this power levels, i can build you a beast from the deepest depths of hell....be warned he'll pass the crusader/warblade with ease

[HalfQuart]

Instead of killing off his character or using the PHB2 retraining rules, I think he should just totally rebuild his character with different classes, feats, abilities, whatever -- but keep the same name, backstory, personality, etc. Just redo the mechanical part, but keep the same character. He might have to keep the half-fiend template for this to work, though, depending on how integral it is to his fluff... maybe he could be Dark or Fiendish instead? Or just be a Tiefling?

[JusticeZero]

Since the good 3.5 stuff was mentioned, could give the PF Aegis a look over. There is a bunch there to work with to make a tanky fighting type.

[Guyver87]

Wow, there's quite a lot of answers, so once again I thank You all, for helping me.

Crusader, or Warblade could be nice, and since we have both classes in the party, it could be reasonably explained, with other PC's training him between adventures.

And since there are two players familiar with Blade Magic, who can help him with the transition between classes, the player wouldn't be overwhelmed by the new options.

Totemist would fit perfectly with the reckless, and brutal fight style he uses, and since he has superhuman strength (26 for now, without items), and Natural Weapons for being a Half-Fiend, with the right Build, we could make him into a real melee monster.

Bard and Marshall are solid choices, but would not fit the style of a guy, who takes Leeroy Jenkins as a role model, when planning the fights...

The only problem is, that the player knows nothing about Meldshaping, and DM might be against incorporating another mechanic into our play, after Psionics, and Blade Magic...

PsyWarrior is interesting too, especially with the route inspired by the old King of Smack build... Certainly worth checking out.

Dragon Shaman... I must confess, that I do not know much about this class, but after reading about it, I think it would be a good fit.


How dedicated to half fiend is he? If not at all, and he wants to hold his own in a group with this power levels, i can build you a beast from the deepest depths of hell....be warned he'll pass the crusader/warblade with ease

Now that got me interested :smallbiggrin: Care to elaborate?

[Ortesk]

Wow, there's quite a lot of answers, so once again I thank You all, for helping me.

Crusader, or Warblade could be nice, and since we have both classes in the party, it could be reasonably explained, with other PC's training him between adventures.

And since there are two players familiar with Blade Magic, who can help him with the transition between classes, the player wouldn't be overwhelmed by the new options.

Totemist would fit perfectly with the reckless, and brutal fight style he uses, and since he has superhuman strength (26 for now, without items), and Natural Weapons for being a Half-Fiend, with the right Build, we could make him into a real melee monster.

Bard and Marshall are solid choices, but would not fit the style of a guy, who takes Leeroy Jenkins as a role model, when planning the fights...

The only problem is, that the player knows nothing about Meldshaping, and DM might be against incorporating another mechanic into our play, after Psionics, and Blade Magic...

PsyWarrior is interesting too, especially with the route inspired by the old King of Smack build... Certainly worth checking out.

Dragon Shaman... I must confess, that I do not know much about this class, but after reading about it, I think it would be a good fit.



Now that got me interested :smallbiggrin: Care to elaborate?

*Grins evil like* Level 13 eh? Level 1 take Old Blood (Warforged)


Proto Half Minotaur Arctic Feral Incarnate Construct Water Orc, Add on Dragonborn since your already using a binder for race

Orc: 4 Str, 2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha
Proto: +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -4 cha
Half Minotaur: +12 str, +6 Con, -2 Dex, -2 int
Lolth Touched: +6 Str, +6 Con (do not have to be drow)
Arctic: +2 Con -2 Cha

+26 Str, +18 Con, -4 int, -8 cha, -2 dex
Incarnate Construct pays off the LA, so LA 0 (Your also large, 3 NA)

Barbarian 2/fighter 4/Frenzy 7

Shown the warblade how charging works, pick up Valerous Wrathful Healing Greatsword, Heal all the pain you dish out (Because your so short on hp with a 30 con) And get standard charge feats/pounce things. One shot everything. Your dumb and fugly, but who gives a flying care

[DruidAlanon]

*Grins evil like* Level 13 eh? Level 1 take Old Blood (Warforged)


Proto Half Minotaur Arctic Feral Incarnate Construct Water Orc, Add on Dragonborn since your already using a binder for race

Orc: 4 Str, 2 con, -2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha
Proto: +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, -4 cha
Half Minotaur: +12 str, +6 Con, -2 Dex, -2 int
Lolth Touched: +6 Str, +6 Con (do not have to be drow)
Arctic: +2 Con -2 Cha

+26 Str, +18 Con, -4 int, -8 cha, -2 dex
Incarnate Construct pays off the LA, so LA 0 (Your also large, 3 NA)

Barbarian 2/fighter 4/Frenzy 7

Shown the warblade how charging works, pick up Valerous Wrathful Healing Greatsword, Heal all the pain you dish out (Because your so short on hp with a 30 con) And get standard charge feats/pounce things. One shot everything. Your dumb and fugly, but who gives a flying care

oh god, and I thought that druid was op.
how is he gonna play with -4 int and -8 cha?

[Guyver87]

Proto Half Minotaur Arctic Feral Incarnate Construct Water Orc, Add on Dragonborn since your already using a binder for race

Erm... No. My suspension of disbelief is rocking back and forth in the corner, and crying it's eyes out. Not to mention the fact, that my GM is generally against such template combinations.


Since the good 3.5 stuff was mentioned, could give the PF Aegis a look over. There is a bunch there to work with to make a tanky fighting type.


Interesting one, but actually it would be better for me, than my friend... But I'll surely look into it, so thanks for introducing it to me.


Just redo the mechanical part, but keep the same character. He might have to keep the half-fiend template for this to work, though, depending on how integral it is to his fluff... maybe he could be Dark or Fiendish instead? Or just be a Tiefling?


Well, the Half-Fiend is not that important to the character. Player simply wanted to play extraordinarily strong, and tough character, so our old DM introduced him to the Templates, and he just picked that one. As for redoing the character, we planned to do it like that. He would be essentially made into completely new char, during the period between adventures, but it would be explained plot-wise with the rest of the team helping him.


Once again, thank You all for all suggestions, and pointers.

[Ortesk]

oh god, and I thought that druid was op.
how is he gonna play with -4 int and -8 cha?

Put a 10 in int, your now at 6. Your slow not brain dead. Put a 10 in Cha, your now a 2. You stink, your hideous, and your prone to fits of anger (he can afford to dump con a bit so he can get around a 6 charisma, which means hes only mildly worse than a usual orc) Are people gonna ask him for dipomacy checks when he kills everything in sight

[lytokk]

I think killing everything in sight would be his diplomacy check. And Bluff, and sense motive.

for intimidate I think he just smiles.

[Ortesk]

Erm... No. My suspension of disbelief is rocking back and forth in the corner, and crying it's eyes out. Not to mention the fact, that my GM is generally against such template combinations.

you didnt say make it believable....

[Ortesk]

I think killing everything in sight would be his diplomacy check. And Bluff, and sense motive.

for intimidate I think he just smiles.

If he rages/frenzies +10 str, base 18 and +4 item, hes at 56 Strength and dealing roughly a thousand damage a swing. I would auto fail a diplomacy of his so he thinks im his buddy, as i do a tactical retreat in the oppisate direction

By level 20 add on the supreme frenzy and 2 rage feats for 8 more strength total, a custom item of giant size to make him go up 3 sizes for 24 more strength, and we will 88 strength total. OP asked to be enlightened....

[lytokk]

the description of frenzy I read was that he attacks the closest enemy to him, and when the enemies are gone he starts attacking the closest creature. Unless he makes his will save, he's going to keep attacking you.

and I meant the diplomacy thing as a joke.

[Ortesk]

the description of frenzy I read was that he attacks the closest enemy to him, and when the enemies are gone he starts attacking the closest creature. Unless he makes his will save, he's going to keep attacking you.

and I meant the diplomacy thing as a joke.

I know i Know, i was joking also. And frenzy is only a threat if you have no wizard. Or your beserker can fly

[Red Fel]

Wow, there's quite a lot of answers, so once again I thank You all, for helping me.

Crusader, or Warblade could be nice, and since we have both classes in the party, it could be reasonably explained, with other PC's training him between adventures.

And since there are two players familiar with Blade Magic, who can help him with the transition between classes, the player wouldn't be overwhelmed by the new options.

Totemist would fit perfectly with the reckless, and brutal fight style he uses, and since he has superhuman strength (26 for now, without items), and Natural Weapons for being a Half-Fiend, with the right Build, we could make him into a real melee monster.

Bard and Marshall are solid choices, but would not fit the style of a guy, who takes Leeroy Jenkins as a role model, when planning the fights...

The only problem is, that the player knows nothing about Meldshaping, and DM might be against incorporating another mechanic into our play, after Psionics, and Blade Magic...

PsyWarrior is interesting too, especially with the route inspired by the old King of Smack build... Certainly worth checking out.

Dragon Shaman... I must confess, that I do not know much about this class, but after reading about it, I think it would be a good fit.



Now that got me interested :smallbiggrin: Care to elaborate?

Meldshaping is actually surprisingly simple with a Totemist multiattack monster build - basically, soulmelds just function as "bonus points" on a character. For example, Girallon Arms soulmeld simply means the character gets an additional four claw attacks per round. That's straightforward. Almost all soulmelds used by a Totemist function like that - they either grant an extra attack, or some extra function (like the Lammasu Mantle's Circle of Protection function). Generally speaking, they add nothing new mechanically to gameplay.

Take a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307217), which results in the build of a Warblade/Totemist, and goes into detail with regard to how to build an absolute beast of natural attacks. That thread uses an unarmed Warblade instead of an armed one, but it doesn't matter on a full attack. In particular, the build uses Girallon Arms (grants four extra claw attacks), Dragon Tail (grants a tail attack), and Sphinx Claws (allows full attack after a charge), as well as a feat that grants a bite attack. So that's your weapon iterative attacks, plus four claws, a bite, and a tail. That damage adds up fast. Adding the Stormguard Warrior feat gives you some outrageous abilities when attacking that many times in a round. You can also throw in Snap Kick as a feat for yet another attack. When you run the math, it ends up looking something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16163412&postcount=42), and that's unarmed.

The short version: Soulmelds are mechanically very simple to use, as they replicate existing abilities (natural attacks, skill boosts, etc). They are also very powerful, as a character can invest them with essentia (explained in Magic of Incarnum) to make them even stronger.