Help with a (problem) player

[CalamaroJoe]

Hi playgrounders,
I would like to read your suggestions to help a player of mine that is stuck playing a paladin, but he's not much into the "knight in shiny armor" character.

A few details:

This is not strictly the classical problem with a disrupting player. Yes, the guy is a bit stubborn and mostly likes to smash down things, but this is quite a common style in our group, so this is not a big problem. Just, he finds out that often his first thought is to use means that are not honorable.
During the last session, they uncovered the classical old good town major that is really an evil necromancer. And when the city guards showed up he was really sad to have to talk and convince them rather than beat them up. :smallbiggrin:
We all are noob in 3.5 and tend to use almost only core.
I do not think that paladins must fall for every little slip, but we all know that sometimes too much is too much.

Since the player himself told me, half hilariously "Make something happen to my character so that I'm at least free", I'm looking for something to do as DM or some changes to suggest him.

I'd prefer to use none or little retconning, if possible. So multiclassing to some other (prestige)class would fit well, but I'm open to other suggestions.

[Callin]

Have him roll Crusader. Same feel less restrictions.

[CalamaroJoe]

Have him roll Crusader. Same feel less restrictions.

Yes, I was expecting that, in particular after reading a couple of new threads.

No, he can't handle it. Neither I as a DM :smallsmile:
Thanks.

[Red Fel]

Hi playgrounders,
I would like to read your suggestions to help a player of mine that is stuck playing a paladin, but he's not much into the "knight in shiny armor" character.

A few details:

This is not strictly the classical problem with a disrupting player. Yes, the guy is a bit stubborn and mostly likes to smash down things, but this is quite a common style in our group, so this is not a big problem. Just, he finds out that often his first thought is to use means that are not honorable.
During the last session, they uncovered the classical old good town major that is really an evil necromancer. And when the city guards showed up he was really sad to have to talk and convince them rather than beat them up. :smallbiggrin:
We all are noob in 3.5 and tend to use almost only core.
I do not think that paladins must fall for every little slip, but we all know that sometimes too much is too much.

Since the player himself told me, half hilariously "Make something happen to my character so that I'm at least free", I'm looking for something to do as DM or some changes to suggest him.

I'd prefer to use none or little retconning, if possible. So multiclassing to some other (prestige)class would fit well, but I'm open to other suggestions.

Unfortunately, the Code of Conduct is a fundamental aspect of the Paladin class. That said, there is an important note to remember:

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Note that while a Paladin is required to act lawfully and honorably, they only risk penalties by RAW for being evil, not dishonorable. (Although it's still frowned on.)

One solution? The Gray Guard PrC. It's a Paladin-based PrC with a lovely class feature called Sacrament of Trust:

Upon entering this prestige class, you take a vow of allegiance to your faith beyond that of any ordinary paladin. This vow grants you a measure of freedom to act on your cause's behalf without fear of retribution should your duties require you to break your code of conduct. Dishonorable acts still cause you to lose both gray guard and paladin class features until you atone, but this infraction is considered much less severe than it would be for a paladin.

Thus, whenever you seek to atone for deeds that you willingly commit in the name of your faith but that break your code of conduct, a cleric casting an atonement spell on your behalf does not expend 500 XP as is normally required. This reprieve applies only to acts intended to further the cause of righteousness and the gray guard's faith. No XP cost applies to a gray guard atoning after beating a confession from a heretic, for example, but the cost would have to be paid for one who started a barroom brawl.

At 10 levels of Gray Guard, this becomes the Sacrament of True Faith:

At 10th level, you gain your order's full confidence. You are granted the freedom to act on behalf of your faith as you deem necessary. Thus, you never risk losing your class abilities in the pursuit of a just cause and never need to atone for violating your code of conduct. This trust does not grant you the freedom to act as violently or immorally as you wish, however. Release from your code of conduct depends on your acting as an exemplar of your order's ideals. If you violate this trust by habitually acting in an immoral or corrupt manner, the leaders or deity of your faith might revoke their blessing and banish you from the ranks of the faithful.

Another option is to use one of the Paladin Variants, such as the Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures), which takes the Paladin and makes it CG.

A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

See? Honor is no longer a requirement there.

These are just several things to consider.

[Nettlekid]

Seconding Crusader, since they can be anything they want with no actual code, or Knight because they have a more Lawful than Good code. Or, if he's so eager to fall, let him! Strike him down shortly before the next level-up, and allow him to trade his Paladin levels either for Blackguard levels or perhaps one of the Variant Paladins from UA.

[Trasilor]

Hi playgrounders,

We all are noob in 3.5 and tend to use almost only core.
[

Well there's half your problem.:smallamused:


Retrain via PHBII
Have him make a new character that is "free"
The point of a Role-playing game is to play a character not a miniatures fighting simulation (I admit that much of 3.5 does fall into this though)


Unfortunately, your example is not the most obvious. He is a paladin, honor has little to do with it. Furthermore, not following the law, does not make him chaotic. Laws can be corrupt or unjust. He is Lawful because he has a moral code that he abides by consistently. This code may be laid down by his church/deity or it might be an internal one (it may help him identify with the character to actually write down his code).

[Tim Proctor]

He totally would have been able to kill every single guard that was stopping him from killing the evil guy.

He should help those in need "providing they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends".

I think helping (by not killing them) so they could protect the necromancer, is against the Paladin's code. He's obligated to punish that necromancer and anyone stopping him is helping an evil end, so other than giving notice "he's a necromancer, and I'm gonna kill him"

[lytokk]

if he didn't want to be LG and have the code of conduct, what drew him to paladin to start with?

[Callin]

Yes, I was expecting that, in particular after reading a couple of new threads.

No, he can't handle it. Neither I as a DM :smallsmile:
Thanks.

I figured that would be the answer after I went back and did a re read of what ya said :smallsmile:

So like it was asked "What drew him to the Paladin in the first place?" What does he want to get out of a character. We can help him rebuild something that he will find fun and that you feel will fit and is allowed.

[navar100]

Why is he "stuck" playing a paladin?

If he is not having fun with the class just let him play a new character. It doesn't have to be crusader. It doesn't even have to be a warrior. A player shouldn't be forced to play a character he doesn't enjoy.

[Maginomicon]

You could look into the possibility of reimagining alignment as a whole as based on intent, not actions, such as with my Real Alignments system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283341).

[jedipotter]

You should have no problem having him be a Smash Paladin. That is perfectly fine way to be good. You don't have to be a wimp to be good, and remember to throw out 21st century ideas.

For example, Judge Dread, Robocop, The Lone Ranger and so on are good examples of Smash good guys.

And the best example of a Smash Good Guy: Thor. Thor from marvel comics. He is as good and noble as he can be...but when it comes to a problem he is much more likely to ''smash it with my hammer'' then ''sit down and have a peace talk''. Thor would not have just talked to the guards...he would have done more like hit the mayor with his hammer!("Have at thee, foul wizard of darkness, feel the righteous might of my strike!")

Remember that 'honor' and being 'honorable' has lots of definitions. You can't just say to be honorable you must do 'X'.

[johnbragg]

Back in 2E, a fallen Paladin just converted over to Fighter. Why not let him do that?

In character, he didn't want to be a Paladin anymore. So he quit.

Actually, I guess technically since he doesn't have the Fighter bonus feats, he converts over to Warrior levels. Maybe let him get two feats per level until he catches up?

Or, if his character really just wants to go full murderhobo, tear off the armor and convert them to Barbarian levels.

It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. If the game isn't fun, change the game.

[GlorinSteampike]

Unfortunately, the Code of Conduct is a fundamental aspect of the Paladin class. That said, there is an important note to remember:


Note that while a Paladin is required to act lawfully and honorably, they only risk penalties by RAW for being evil, not dishonorable. (Although it's still frowned on.)

One solution? The Gray Guard PrC. It's a Paladin-based PrC with a lovely class feature called Sacrament of Trust:


At 10 levels of Gray Guard, this becomes the Sacrament of True Faith:


Another option is to use one of the Paladin Variants, such as the Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures), which takes the Paladin and makes it CG.


See? Honor is no longer a requirement there.

These are just several things to consider.

This is pretty much the answer. If you guys can't do this, then he just shouldn't play a paladin. If he likes the smite feature there's some ways to get it, and even better ways but they aren't core. Soulborn comes to mind. Smite Opposition would let him smite Paladins if he goes Chaotic :D

[molten_dragon]

Hi playgrounders,
I would like to read your suggestions to help a player of mine that is stuck playing a paladin, but he's not much into the "knight in shiny armor" character.

If the problem is that he doesn't want to play a paladin, the solution is as easy as letting him roll a new character.

[Maginomicon]

There are ways to be a paladin without being a "knight in shining armor".

Article: No More Overzealous Paladins (http://www.paperspencils.com/2011/12/07/no-more-overzealous-paladins/)
Article: A Paladin’s Fall (http://www.paperspencils.com/2012/03/12/a-paladins-fall/)
Article: The Paladin’s Oath, and GM Clarity (http://www.paperspencils.com/2012/03/14/the-paladins-oath-and-gm-clarity/)
Story: A Paladin On Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16022130&postcount=2)

There's also numerous paladin ACFs which may be attractive to your player if they really want to keep a paladin but don't want to be a stereotype.

[killem2]

Dragon 310. Paladin Variants.