How to make homebrew at a tier

[AttilaTheGeek]

I've been around the boards for a while, but I'm still relatively new to the homebrew scene. I'm looking for advice on how to make my homebrew a certain tier. I know giving things like flight or attacks that target saves can raise tier, but just throwing those in seems like a heavy-handed way to hit tier 3. I'm not trying to build mundane tier 1s or anything like that, just wondering what I can do to get a homebrew class to the tier I want.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It's all dependent on the number and power of the capabilities a class has. More power and more capabilities -> higher tiers, less power and fewer capabilities -> lower tiers. In broad strokes, the tiers can be boiled down to the following rules of thumb:

Tiers 1 and 2 have excellent power and versatility. Both win the game with their primary foci or are very good in many areas; on top of that, T1s can win in any other area given time.

Tiers 3 and 4 have excellent power or versatility. Both are very good at their primary foci or are okay in many areas; on top of that, T3s can at least contribute in pretty much any area regardless of main focus.

Tiers 5 and 6 have neither power nor versatility. Both kinda suck in all areas, but T5s can at least do one thing passably well.


What does this mean for a homebrewer? Basically, your creations have a baseline of Tier 5 and work their way up based on what abilities they get.

You can only really hit Tier 6 if the class gets practically nothing or if what it does get is so minor to be useless. You really have to try to hit this spot.
It's kind of hard not to make a Tier 5 by assembling a class out of existing abilities. Bonus feats here, X stat to Y bonus there, borrow class features from this or that class, bam, you have a class. Maybe not a good class (witness the monk, whose class features kind of clash with each other and aren't very powerful, or the soulknife whose entire class feature can be bought), but a class.
Tier 4 classes can be built like T5s, but they need to have all their class features work together towards one purpose and they generally need a unique schtick reinforcing that purpose. Rogues are all about avoidance and killing things, so they get stealth and infiltration skills, Evasion/Uncanny Dodge/etc., and their (unique in core) sneak attack. Warmages are all about killing ALL the things in combat, so they get more combat proficiencies, blasting spells, metamagic, and their unique warmage edge damage boost.
Tier 3 classes start needing a more thoughtful design, in that they need to have enough features to contribute in most if not all situations. There's no one list of things a T3 must have, since not all characters will contribute in the same way, but they need to have enough capabilities that they won't be stymied by a given challenge. This can take the form of a very broad powerset (binders and factotums can whip up access to something that will help in a given situation, given at least a day's notice) or a focused powerset that is helpful in many situations (what problems can't a beguiler or dread necromancer solve by throwing minions at it?), but in general you should think up a bunch of different kinds of challenges like combat, dungeon delving, social scenes, exploration, survival, siege warfare, mysteries, etc. and ensure that they have something to contribute in all of them.
Tier 2 is when you start hitting the "you must be this tall to play" abilities. Even if a given character can't access them, the class as a whole should have access to all the major game-changers: flight and teleportation for travel, miss chances and attacks targeting alternate defenses for combat, big skill boosters and "enablers" (like invisibility or glibness) for social scenes, etc. An appropriately-built character of this class should be able to waltz into any scene it's built for and handle it easily with what the class gives it, and it should be able to be a strong contender even in scenarios it's not built for. A large selectable class ability list is almost mandatory; relying on spell lists is the usual solution.
Tier 1 is T2 but more so. Now it all comes down to flavor: a given T1 can potentially do all the T2 game-changing tricks, it's just a matter of how; wizards and clerics have different long-term summons, different blasting, different buffs, different debuffs, different social aids, etc., but they can both do all of them.

So in summary: you can build T5s out of Legos, you need to add something unique and meaningful for T4, you need to add a bunch of abilities to be able to contribute in many situations for T3, you need to boost the power of some of those abilities to game-changing levels for T2, and you need to potentially be able to have all the T2 abilities for T1.

That's very general advice, of course, and there's no one formula to follow to hit any tier, like "a full caster is always high-tier" (warmage, healer) or "access to a big list of stuff is always high-tier" (ToB, binder) or "having a very narrow schtick makes you low-tier" (artificer). Just keep those guidelines in mind and it should help you figure out what you need to give (or avoid giving) a class to hit a certain tier.

[Seerow]

To elaborate on PoD's post, which is very good: It's nearly impossible to design a tier 1 or 2 class from scratch. A lot of people have tried to do it, and it usually ends up falling in the upper end of tier 3, sometimes even only tier 4 (usually when the homebrewer thinks that throwing enough big numbers at a class will make for tier 1). Tier 1/2 came to be as a result of a fundamentally broken spellcasting system augmented by hundreds of spells in core that include things that completely rewrite how the game is played the second they come available. Then added onto that we have years worth of splatbook material augmenting those spell lists, just enhancing the problem.

Matching that level of brokenness would take a lot more effort than most people are willing to put into a homebrew project. And most people willing to put in that kind of effort don't actually want to make something deliberately intended to break the game. Which is why most Tier 1/2 homebrew you see will be casters drawing on existing spell lists or prestige classes for those casters.

[johnbragg]

Tiers 1 and 2 have excellent power and versatility. Both win the game with their primary foci or are very good in many areas; on top of that, T1s can win in any other area given time.

Tiers 3 and 4 have excellent power or versatility. Both are very good at their primary foci or are okay in many areas; on top of that, T3s can at least contribute in pretty much any area regardless of main focus.

Tiers 5 and 6 have neither power nor versatility. Both kinda suck in all areas, but T5s can at least do one thing passably well.

This may be a better explanation of the Tier system than the original.

[Jormengand]

Well, let's think of why each class is in its tier.


[list]You can only really hit Tier 6 if the class gets practically nothing or if what it does get is so minor to be useless. You really have to try to hit this spot.

The Commoner has no class features, a bad hit die and a weak class skill list.

Homebrew examples:
The Redshirt has a chance to die when hit, and the bonuses he gives his allies for dying are not that amazing. His ability to get up from death may just about drag him into tier 5 if it's abused horribly, but otherwise this ends up squarely in T6 because it's designed to be terrible.

Making the tier six:

Keep your saves low - one can be high, two or three may be pushing you into low tier five in your sheer ability to raise a finger to any wizard forgetting to pack irresistible spell. Similarly, keep hit dice low. Medium BAB is probably acceptable.

Your class skill list should be like the commoner's life - short and unimportant. Any class features should purely be flavourful or instead bring a massive downside upon you when used, or simply not be very effective.


It's kind of hard not to make a Tier 5 by assembling a class out of existing abilities. Bonus feats here, X stat to Y bonus there, borrow class features from this or that class, bam, you have a class. Maybe not a good class (witness the monk, whose class features kind of clash with each other and aren't very powerful, or the soulknife whose entire class feature can be bought), but a class.

The Warrior wins combats by having high BAB and a decent hit die, and charging with the nearest weapon he can find. The Fighter does this slightly better by having a selection of feats with which to do this. The monk has a lot of interesting class features and saves that only a dragon can equal, but the class features are rather naff.

Homebrew examples:

The Barkeeper does as much damage with improvised weapons as the monk with his fists and has a ton of class features, but again suffers from the fact that these features are more thematic than useful ("Locate bar" indeed!) although the ability to make greater teleports to the bar may be quite useful.

Making the tier five:

Choose a thing, and make the class slightly better at it than the factotum is. Make it terrible at everything else. For example the fighter fights: a higher HD and BAB than the factotum's, along with combat feats, ensure it's a bit better. The rest of the class is useless.


Tier 4 classes can be built like T5s, but they need to have all their class features work together towards one purpose and they generally need a unique schtick reinforcing that purpose. Rogues are all about avoidance and killing things, so they get stealth and infiltration skills, Evasion/Uncanny Dodge/etc., and their (unique in core) sneak attack. Warmages are all about killing ALL the things in combat, so they get more combat proficiencies, blasting spells, metamagic, and their unique warmage edge damage boost.

The Dungeoncrasher is built to - well, crash through dungeons. Despite his fighter levels, he is equipped for almost any dungeonable situation.
The Barbarian, the Something 4/bard 1/Dragon disciple 10/something 5 and the Ubercharger fighter kill things really hard, which puts them up into tier four just by the power of killing everything they can see.

Homebrew examples:

The Honour Guard was aimed here, but may have gone a little low. What it does manage to do is hold people in check, protect the party and deal stupid amounts of damage when it's not its turn.

Making the tier four:

Choose a thing. Make the class actually quite good at it. Choose another thing. Make the class about as good as a factotum at it. Make the rest of the class bad.

The rogue is pretty amazing if you want someone to take 44d6 damage without too many questions asked (1d6 shortbow + 10d6 sneak * 3-attack FRAA and the surprise round). They're also good for getting rid of traps, but other classes can do that anyway.


Tier 3 classes start needing a more thoughtful design, in that they need to have enough features to contribute in most if not all situations. There's no one list of things a T3 must have, since not all characters will contribute in the same way, but they need to have enough capabilities that they won't be stymied by a given challenge. This can take the form of a very broad powerset (binders and factotums can whip up access to something that will help in a given situation, given at least a day's notice) or a focused powerset that is helpful in many situations (what problems can't a beguiler or dread necromancer solve by throwing minions at it?), but in general you should think up a bunch of different kinds of challenges like combat, dungeon delving, social scenes, exploration, survival, siege warfare, mysteries, etc. and ensure that they have something to contribute in all of them.

The Inquisitor (PF) can largely ignore her sword skills before proceeding to screw with reality using her first six levels of spells - she can heal, damage, summon, and so forth. She only has a limited list to choose from, but they are helpful in all sorts of situations, and she can generally come up with something useful given a day of rest.

Homebrew examples:

Once again going into my own brew, the Mechanical Warrior can probably help out a lot in many different situations. The ability to kill one thing or many, turn invisible, fly, be immune to almost everything and bull rush like a pro are all very useful - unfortunately, he's not going to start plane shifting or teleporting about the place.

Making the tier 3:

Either:

Go to the list of things a tier 1 should be able to do, and pick about one or two of them. Make this class good at them. Pick another three or four. Make this class all right at them.

Or:

Go to the list of things a tier 1 should be able to do, and pick about ten of them. Make this class all right at them.

The Inquisitor is able to output a lot of damage and has a plethora of spells which are fairly useful for other things.

The Factotum can help in this situation. What situation am I talking about? I don't know, but the Factotum can help you with it. Not always to great effect, but the Factotum can help you with it.


Tier 2 is when you start hitting the "you must be this tall to play" abilities. Even if a given character can't access them, the class as a whole should have access to all the major game-changers: flight and teleportation for travel, miss chances and attacks targeting alternate defenses for combat, big skill boosters and "enablers" (like invisibility or glibness) for social scenes, etc. An appropriately-built character of this class should be able to waltz into any scene it's built for and handle it easily with what the class gives it, and it should be able to be a strong contender even in scenarios it's not built for. A large selectable class ability list is almost mandatory; relying on spell lists is the usual solution.

The sorcerer can choose any spell that has ever been written (by "gaining an understanding through study") but if they haven't chosen the right spell? No chance of fixing that in eight hours; you'll need to level up first.

Homebrew examples:

The Worldspeaker can fly, teleport, dispel any spell that is still ongoing, bind someone, dominate someone, unbind someone, undominate someone, heal, damage, buff attacks, debuff attacks, trap people's souls, plane shift... but no one worldspeaker can do everything, because they don't prepare utterances.

The Teramach has a ridiculous number of abilities, but again, the problem is that you can't just swap them out whenever you feel like it.

Making the Tier 2:

Choose everything from the list of things a tier 1 should be able to do. Turn them into abilities for the class. Make the class choose between them, and prevent them from changing this decision.


Tier 1 is T2 but more so. Now it all comes down to flavor: a given T1 can potentially do all the T2 game-changing tricks, it's just a matter of how; wizards and clerics have different long-term summons, different blasting, different buffs, different debuffs, different social aids, etc., but they can both do all of them.

The wizard can freely swap between spells with eight hours' (or, let's be honest, even less) notice. They can have every gamebreaking ability you can think of, and they can change their selection if they need a new one.

Homebrew example:

The Metagamer not only casts spells as a sorcerer on some kind of dangerous illegal drug but can change his own character sheet to give himself a bonus to any stat he likes, along with having a complete knowledge of several sourcebooks.

Making a tier one:

As tier two, only let them change their abilities at will.



What should a tier 1 be able to do?

Increase saving throws/attack bonus/attack damage/ability scores, create illusions, know/find out things, move things from a distance, send messages, block people, protect things, kill people instantly, knock people out, not die, summon, fight entire encounters, move without taking actions to do so, fall safely, stop other people dying, stop the effects of other people's abilities, stop people acting, turn into about anything, control people, be invisible, be big, be small, perform every combat manoeuvre in existence, inflict negative levels, reduce people's ability scores, make everything, destroy everything, trap people, trap people's souls, inflict random status conditions on things, fly, teleport, shift between planes and deal serious damage to the action economy.

They may also be able to heal, restore ability drain/negative levels, and bring people back to life.

[ArcturusV]

One thing I was thinking about, and came up when I did my Champion of Flames elemental Paladin variant?

You can probably bump up a tier (Or half a tier) by adding a minor capability. As they mentioned a bit, a lot of lower tiers are defined by generally two things, either being X level at a lot of things, or Y level at 1 thing to the exclusion of all others.

Then again the low tiers I find aren't as well designed in general. OR at least not as clear cut. Because there's basically three criteria for if something is Tier 3 or lower, compared to the fairly clear Tier 1 and Tier 2 status. Tier 1, do anything, able to add anything to your repertoire if you don't already have it. Tier 2, do anything, but only a few anythings without the ability to change the anythings like a tier 1.

Then you get into the weird definition of tier three as basically: Either A) You are the freakin' best thing ever at something that you can be without rewriting the rules of the game (ToB sort of stuff, Bards), or B) you're like as good as everything as a tier 4 generalist would be at their 5 or so tricks (Factotum), or C) you're pretty good at one thing without being game breaking, and minorly good at other things (Beguiler seems to fit this).

And it just kinda gets murkier from there.

So when I created the Champion of Flames, I wanted Paladin as a baseline. I knew Paladin was tier 5. I knew WHY it was tier 5. It basically did one thing (Fighting), it did it well-ish, but was hampered by endurance. Far too few smites, relatively low spell slots, Utility Abilities with limited per week use, Lay on Hands pool that was not up to the task, immunities that didn't generally matter by the time you get them, like immunity to disease at a level where thanks to good Fort and Divine Grace you probably won't ever fail a disease saving throw. And hampered by the fact that it only really COULD do that one thing. To get the mileage out of a Paladin you needed to really be mounted, with their MADness and low skill points meant that it was going to eat up all your skill points.. so they could charge on horse/dragon/unicorn/pegasus back.... but nothing else. Granted they make freakin' scary Chargelots with triple on a lance, spells like Rhino's Rush, Spirited Charge, Smite Evil, etc, all feeding a high level Paladin. But that's really the only situation that they outshine a Fighter... except maybe for Fear based scenarios, or having to cure one person of one disease 1/week?

So I wanted to give them some stuff that was relevant. I was aiming at one tier higher, 4. I didn't up their Spells per Day, but I gave them more smites, I gave them things to trade in their smites in case they weren't running into the enemies that were effected (Elementals, and later Aberrations and Outsiders). I gave them some minor tricks which gave them some potential out of combat use like Fire Eyes, the sort of ability that isn't blatantly obvious in how you'd use it, but prone to eureka moments, or unlimited Sense Elements rather than Detect Evil. I upped the Lay on Hands ability by allowing them to pop more points into the daily pool later on, let them smite at range which I always thought Paladins should be able to do anyway.

I'm not really sure if I hit the tier 4 spot. I think I might have as it'd compare with the Ranger in the end. I'd hope. But it's part of my own thought process behind it.

[Carl]

Then you get into the weird definition of tier three

This bears repeating and is one of the things i've had the most trouble wrapping my head around really.

T4 covers a very broad range of things and as a result creates a serious logical disconnect. It covers everything from serious specialists able to outshine T3's in a limited area, but do so in a way that isn't rocket tag.

But it also covers stuff like Ubercharger's and Alchemical flask rouges who are basically Rocket Tagger's with only a limited number of types of rockets or with Rocket's with serious usage limitation's, (like Ubercharger's having a really hard time hitting stuff that's flying, has concealment, or which is protected by illusionary copies).

T2 is basically T4 but with a much broader range of rocket's, (i.e. you have fewer situations where they can't be used and where they cover more types of situation's, including non-combat ones).

T3 doesn't fit between them at all really, it's a separate concept. T1, T2, T4 and T5 existing on separate tiers on an axis labelled "ability power". Whilst T3 exists entirely on an Axis labelled Utility. Ability power plays a part in it, but it's not a natural tier between 4 and 2.

[Eldan]

Tier 1 isn't really more powerful than Tier 2 in that way, though. It's the more versatile tier 2.

[Carl]

I know the point is they fit a clear and steady pattern that everything but T3 fit's into. T3 is the odd man out and harder to understand. I was simplifying somewhat for simplicity's sake.

It would be fairer to say that T3 stick's out as being lower on the power scale rather than equal or higher as is the case with every other tier in comparison to it's predecessor's. Sound Better for you?

[toapat]

Making the tier six:

Keep your saves low - one can be high, two or three may be pushing you into low tier five in your sheer ability to raise a finger to any wizard forgetting to pack irresistible spell. Similarly, keep hit dice low. Medium BAB is probably acceptable.

Your class skill list should be like the commoner's life - short and unimportant. Any class features should purely be flavourful or instead bring a massive downside upon you when used, or simply not be very effective.


actually, the best example of a T6 class is Samurai, not commoner. Commoner is only such because they have terrible saves, BAB, skills, and class features at core. however they have extreme mobility due to numerous other factors, such as instantaneous access to the survivor PRC and silly things like Chicken Infested.

comparatively, Samurai has no real way to improve them. their best class feature is one gained through a feat.

[Jormengand]

actually, the best example of a T6 class is Samurai, not commoner. Commoner is only such because they have terrible saves, BAB, skills, and class features at core. however they have extreme mobility due to numerous other factors, such as instantaneous access to the survivor PRC and silly things like Chicken Infested.

comparatively, Samurai has no real way to improve them. their best class feature is one gained through a feat.

I was assuming that chickimancers would be banned. Samurai also have a weird build which allows them to lock someone down forever while repeatedly making attack actions on them, which makes them tier 4 if they do it (in the same manner of "The Killer"). The same reason I didn't but in truenamer - the Truespammer build is T4.

But normally, yes, samurai. They probably almost crawl into T5 alongside the warrior just through their vague ability to do something in combat, but their class features don't really work together to create a cohesive character.

[Morph Bark]

Out of all the Tiers, Tier 2 is the hardest to define, as it requires crossing a certain line.

For the lower Tiers, it's in short:
- Tier 3 is good at one thing, and decent in other things.
- Tier 4 is good at one thing, but not in other things.
- Tier 5 tries to be good at something, but isn't.
- Tier 6 doesn't even try.

Tier 3 and 4 kind of segue into one another, which is why I created the Borderline Tier 3-4 category for my Homebrew Tier Compendium, and because there are some Tier 3 classes that are more powerful than others, but don't quite appear to cross the line into Tier 2, I made the High Tier 3 category.

Tier 1 is essentially a Tier 2 that can change its abilities around more. Abilities that, compared to Tier 3 and below, are game-breaking.


EDIT: I could add more on how to actually make a class at a certain Tier, but that would require an extensive guide, and a guide on just class-making alone could be pretty big. That said, most of the advice given in this thread so far is pretty solid for a start on the subject. :smallsmile:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Out of all the Tiers, Tier 2 is the hardest to define, as it requires crossing a certain line.

For the lower Tiers, it's in short:
- Tier 3 is good at one thing, and decent in other things.
- Tier 4 is good at one thing, but not in other things.
- Tier 5 tries to be good at something, but isn't.
- Tier 6 doesn't even try.

Morph is correct. To add the remaining Tiers in:
- Tier 1 is good at everything, although not necessarily all at one time.
- Tier 2 has the potential to be good at everything, but no one build can accomplish more than a fraction of this everything.
- Tier 3 is good at one thing, and decent in other things or decent at everything.
- Tier 4 is good at one thing, but not in other things.
- Tier 5 tries to be good at something, but isn't.
- Tier 6 doesn't even try.

[toapat]

*snip*

Imperious Command Samurai is, if i remember correctly, basically the same as what the zhentarium fighter can do, but Samurai is worse at it, and that is the only thing they can do without invalidating their progression. even with that they are only considered low tier 5 because they are so, utterly and ridiculously terrible.

to compare, the second through Sixth level a Commoner should take are the levels of Survivor, because of their horrid frame allowing them to immediately qualify into it, reversing their problems and giving them a huge number of class features. this is besides the Cluckomancy that is performed through other means with commoner.

Truenamer is classified as a T6/7 because it needs an extremely liberal DM to allow it to function, in which case it becomes a T4.

[Jormengand]

Imperious Command Samurai is, if i remember correctly, basically the same as what the zhentarium fighter can do, but Samurai is worse at it, and that is the only thing they can do without invalidating their progression. even with that they are only considered low tier 5 because they are so, utterly and ridiculously terrible.

to compare, the second through Sixth level a Commoner should take are the levels of Survivor, because of their horrid frame allowing them to immediately qualify into it, reversing their problems and giving them a huge number of class features. this is besides the Cluckomancy that is performed through other means with commoner.

Truenamer is classified as a T6/7 because it needs an extremely liberal DM to allow it to function, in which case it becomes a T4.

I remember someone won the Test of Spite with an Imperious Command samurai...

Saying the commoner is a higher tier because they can take Survivor levels is like saying that a hypothetical commoner variant who can spontaneously cast one of two cantrips per day instead of having class skills is tier 4 because it qualifies you for Dragon Disciple, which the otherwise superior fighter does not. The Commoner, in and of itself, is T6.

Truenamer is usually classed as tier nothing. Not tier 0, tier nothing. The class just doesn't function as intended, and you can build it as tier 6 (with bad truespeak checks) tier 5 (with some ability to use truespeak) tier 4 (with truespammer) tier 3 (with truespammer and the right utterances) tier 2 (with conjunctive gate), tier 1 (with truespammer and conjunctive gate) or tier 0 (with conjunctive gate, truespammer, quickened utterances, chain gating, wish abuse and all kinds of things your DM should not have to put up with pre-epic.)

[toapat]

*snip*

1: Its still the only partial trick in the entire arsenal of Samurai where they dont take Rhonin immediately

2: Tier, at its basics, is only thought of as not considering PrCs, however it does, and commoners would also be unranked if not for the fact they have some of the strongest, finest cheese in the edition

3: The Truenamer is officially "Tier 4 if allowed all the necessary supplements and rules to achieve the DCs". its "Tie the Campaign into a quantum pretzel" abilities come on so late that they are not measured in with much weight

[Kane0]

Good Stuff

This should probably be stickied or something.