Ogre Character

[Harbinger]

I'm making an ogre woodsman for a game I'm in. I'm imagining him as a careful, contemplative person who thinks before he acts. LA buyoff is allowed, and we're starting at Level 13, so he's already LA +0 at the start.

My thoughts so far are:

Giant RHD 4/Fighter 2/Ranger 1/Barbarian 2. What else should I add to him?

I don't want to use the Tome of Battle, and I feel like Barbarian wouldn't fit the character, though I'd be willing to consider.

I've decided to take Wolf Totem and Spirit Lion variant Barbarian levels 1 and 2.

I'd also prefer he have full BAB, though that's by no means a requirement.

[Blackjackg]

Can you give us a little more information about the character? Goals, interests, characteristics, alignment, etc... there are a lot of prestige classes out there and choosing the right one is a fluff question as well as an optimization question.

[jedipilot24]

I'm making an ogre woodsman for a game I'm in. I'm imagining him as a careful, contemplative person who thinks before he acts. LA buyoff is allowed, and we're starting at Level 13, so he's already LA +0 at the start.

My thoughts so far are:

Giant RHD 4/Fighter 2/Ranger 1. What else should I add to him?

I don't want to use the Tome of Battle, and I feel like Barbarian wouldn't fit the character, though I'd be willing to consider.

I'd also prefer he have full BAB, though that's by no means a requirement.

Interesting that you're playing against type as Ogres are usually "HULK! SMASH!" Still, if everyone else is lvl 13, expect to be overshadowed and here's why:
Currently you have BAB+6, which means only one iterative attack. A 13th level human Fighter would have +13 BAB, for a total of three attacks. Even if you went with Fighter 8/Ranger 1 or some other combination of full BAB classes, it would all add up to BAB+12.
HP and saves are probably going to be a little lower than average so I recommend Steadfast Determination to mitigate the low Will save at least.

[OldTrees1]

I treat classes as mechanical tools to sculpt the abilities I want into a character. Under that mindset 2 levels of Barbarian(Spirit Lion[Pounce], Wolf Totem[Improved Trip without Combat Expertise or Int]) results in 2 very useful abilities for Large Str based characters. You can then ignore the Rage 1/day if it does not fit your character concept.

I recently discovered the War Hulk prestige class. It is not for most characters since your ranks in mental skills are permanently set to 0 and it does not advance BAB. However you get +2 Str per level and you get to hit multiple squares with the same attack in a full attack/ attack of opportunity (4th: 3 consecutive squares, 10th all threatened squares). Whether tripling your attacks is worth losing 4 BAB and mental skills is a tossup without knowing more about the character. Although I am guessing it is not worth it for the contemplative woodsman.

[Harbinger]

I treat classes as mechanical tools to sculpt the abilities I want into a character. Under that mindset 2 levels of Barbarian(Spirit Lion[Pounce], Wolf Totem[Improved Trip without Combat Expertise or Int]) results in 2 very useful abilities for Large Str based characters. You can then ignore the Rage 1/day if it does not fit your character concept.

I recently discovered the War Hulk prestige class. It is not for most characters since your ranks in mental skills are permanently set to 0 and it does not advance BAB. However you get +2 Str per level and you get to hit multiple squares with the same attack in a full attack/ attack of opportunity (4th: 3 consecutive squares, 10th all threatened squares). Whether tripling your attacks is worth losing 4 BAB and mental skills is a tossup without knowing more about the character. Although I am guessing it is not worth it for the contemplative woodsman.

Those two abilities sound very good, and the more I think about it, the more I think they would be good for this character. So, yes, I think I will take two levels of Barbarian with those variants and ignore the rage for the most part. As for War Holk, it looks fun but the inability to put ranks into survival is not something I can deal with. So that's RHD 4/Ftr 2/Rng 1/Bar 2. What should I pick up for the next four levels?


Interesting that you're playing against type as Ogres are usually "HULK! SMASH!" Still, if everyone else is lvl 13, expect to be overshadowed and here's why:
Currently you have BAB+6, which means only one iterative attack. A 13th level human Fighter would have +13 BAB, for a total of three attacks. Even if you went with Fighter 8/Ranger 1 or some other combination of full BAB classes, it would all add up to BAB+12.
HP and saves are probably going to be a little lower than average so I recommend Steadfast Determination to mitigate the low Will save at least.

The group I play with is extremely low op. As in, Druids who don't take Natural Spell and blaster wizards who bar Conjuration level low op. It doesn't seem like that big of a problem, because I'm most likely going to take at least mostly full BAB classes. Any BAB loss will probably be offset by my titanic racial bonus to Strength. I don't think my BAB for this build will be lower than +10, even if I do take a couple levels in a class with non full progression. As for playing against type, well, it's fun. :smalltongue:


Can you give us a little more information about the character? Goals, interests, characteristics, alignment, etc... there are a lot of prestige classes out there and choosing the right one is a fluff question as well as an optimization question.

I haven't come up with a lot, but I know he worships the nature god Pan, who appreciates independence and cunning. His alignment is probably True Neutral, although Chaotic Neutral is a possibility. He has a good wisdom, an average intelligence, and a slightly below average charisma. Have you ever played Mass Effect? I took a bit of inspiration from the character Wrex. He's true neutral. He was born in an ogre tribe but eventually grew irritated with their stupidity, cruelty, and obsession with killing. He likes to be alone, it makes him feel at peace. He's a bit cynical and sarcastic. He's bemused with other races discrimination against ogres, but he doesn't feel like he can blame them because of how others of his races act. That's about all I can tell you at this point.

[Harbinger]

I have a minor thing I'm not sure I fully understand about the rules. How do saves get calculated for a multiclass character? I calculated my save bonuses and it says I should have base saves of +11 Fort (+3 from Fighter 2, +3 from Barbarian 2, +2 from Ranger 1, +3 from RHD) +3 Ref (+2 from Ranger 1, +1 from RHD), and +1 Will (+1 from RHD). My will and reflex saves are way lower than a normal 9th level character, but my Fortitude is much higher. I'm doing this correctly right?

[dascarletm]

I have a minor thing I'm not sure I fully understand about the rules. How do saves get calculated for a multiclass character? I calculated my save bonuses and it says I should have base saves of +11 Fort (+3 from Fighter 2, +3 from Barbarian 2, +2 from Ranger 1, +3 from RHD) +3 Ref (+2 from Ranger 1, +1 from RHD), and +1 Will (+1 from RHD). My will and reflex saves are way lower than a normal 9th level character, but my Fortitude is much higher. I'm doing this correctly right?

Yes, (assuming the bonuses you said are correct, I'm away from my books so I don't know) unless you use fractional Save progression.

[Harbinger]

Yes, (assuming the bonuses you said are correct, I'm away from my books so I don't know) unless you use fractional Save progression.

Great. Anyway, there are four levels I still need to fill out. What classes do you think I should take?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you use Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny you won't be stuck with any racial HD.

Edit: You can't buy off a +2 LA with 4 racial HD and 5 class levels. Racial HD don't count toward how soon you can start buying it off, you need a total of 9 class levels to buy off a +2 LA. You could start with one point of an Ogre's LA bought off starting at level 13, assuming you have enough xp to still have six class levels.

[Harbinger]

If you use Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny you won't be stuck with any racial HD.
Edit: You can't buy off a +2 LA with 4 racial HD and 5 class levels. Racial HD don't count toward how soon you can start buying it off, you need a total of 9 class levels to buy off a +2 LA. You could start with one point of an Ogre's LA bought off starting at level 13, assuming you have enough xp to still have six class levels.


That's true, but if I did that it would be a completely different character. I also wouldn't have +10 to Strength or +4 to Constitution.

And dang, you're right. I did that math wrong. Crap. OK, so that's only three levels I need to fill out then.

[OldTrees1]

1 level of cloistered cleric gives Knowledge Devotion, +2 more Devotion feats and 3+Cha turn undead uses to power the Devotion feats.

2 levels of feat Rogue gives you +1 BAB, 2 fighter feats, evasion and a bunch of skill points.

RHD 4/Ftr 2/Rng 1/Bar 2/Rog 2/Clr 1 [BAB9]

Or you could take 3 full BAB classes in order to reach BAB11

RHD 4/Ftr 3/Rng 2/Bar 2
Ranger 2 for the Power Attack combat style
Fighter 3 for the free Skill Focus (Intimidate)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's true, but if I did that it would be a completely different character. I also wouldn't have +10 to Strength or +4 to Constitution.

And dang, you're right. I did that math wrong. Crap. OK, so that's only three levels I need to fill out then.

Half-Ogre still gets Str +6, Con +2, and you would have a lot more class levels to work with.

This Ranger variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) will get you Fast Movement at Ranger 1, so you would still have that despite using Lion Spirit.

Are you using Dungeoncrasher? Get Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Knock-Back in Races of Stone and you can Dungeoncrash opponents against obstacles every time you hit them. Also be sure to get Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), so every time you hit someone you'll knock them flat and send them skidding across the room. They'll have to spend a move action to get up and another move action to get back into melee with you, so every attack you make wastes an opponent's entire next turn.

[Harbinger]

Half-Ogre still gets Str +6, Con +2, and you would have a lot more class levels to work with.

This Ranger variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) will get you Fast Movement at Ranger 1, so you would still have that despite using Lion Spirit.

Are you using Dungeoncrasher? Get Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Knock-Back in Races of Stone and you can Dungeoncrash opponents against obstacles every time you hit them. Also be sure to get Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), so every time you hit someone you'll knock them flat and send them skidding across the room. They'll have to spend a move action to get up and another move action to get back into melee with you, so every attack you make wastes an opponent's entire next turn.

Yeah, but the half-ogre wouldn't be nearly as cool and wouldn't fit my character concept.

I don't have the Dungeonscape book, but I could probably get my hands on it.

Also, I could be wrong, but don't you have to be a God to get that feat?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't have the Dungeonscape book, but I could probably get my hands on it.

Also, I could be wrong, but don't you have to be a God to get that feat?

"Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#feats)."

If that sentence started with the word "Only" then that would be the case. Deities can take those feats, and so can anyone else who qualifies for them. It was originally printed in Sword and Fist as a general feat anyway. They ended up giving it to one of the deities printed in Deities and Demigods, and had to include the feat in that book as well. The SRD was able to include rules content from Deities and Demigods, so that's the only reason it's listed among the deities' feats.

[Nettlekid]

One of the biggest draws of being an Ogre is the size, so play that up. I like the idea of the contemplative hulk, and you could describe him as carefully figuring out the best leverage points from which to hurl people. The feats Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Knockback, and Knock-Down work together to make an excellent damage dealer/battlefield controller. You eye your enemy, and decide where to strike. Charge in, take -BAB to AC, deal lots of damage, trip them, get another attack with Improved Trip, and then Bull Rush them with +2*BAB to the already formidable check. Repeat for as many foes as you have iteratives for. Maybe his weapon is a modified croquet mallet, and he remarks that "It really is a gentleman's game."

[Harbinger]

"Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#feats)."

If that sentence started with the word "Only" then that would be the case. Deities can take those feats, and so can anyone else who qualifies for them. It was originally printed in Sword and Fist as a general feat anyway. They ended up giving it to one of the deities printed in Deities and Demigods, and had to include the feat in that book as well. The SRD was able to include rules content from Deities and Demigods, so that's the only reason it's listed among the deities' feats.

I see. Alright, I'll definitely take that feat then.

Oldtrees1,

Cloistered Cleric doesn't really fit my character at all. I like the feat Rogue idea though. I think I'll take Barbarian 3 as my final level.

So that's RHD 4/Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Barbarian 3/Rogue 2/LA 1.

So that's the build. Here's my sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=682776

[WinWin]

You still need the prerequisite feats for improved trip, including an intelligence of 13.

An alternative you could try is a shapeshift variant druid (phb2). Sure, you're losing out on spellcasting levels, but you would still be high enough level to assume the forest avenger form, which grants a +8 to strength and NA, on top of the high strength and NA of an ogre. Your DM might even allow you to refluff it as a Panii form and let you use a gore/hoof attack routine instead of the normal claw/bite routine.

Other druid abilities could simply go towards enhancing woodsman skills and combat ability.

Obviously your spellcasting has less potential than a single classed druid without RHD, but if you look at the character as a ranger instead, then your spellcasting is a semi-decent fallback option.

[Harbinger]

You still need the prerequisite feats for improved trip, including an intelligence of 13.

No, I don't.


A 2nd-level wolf-totem barbarian gains Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.

[Coidzor]

You still need the prerequisite feats for improved trip, including an intelligence of 13.

For Knock-Down? :smallconfused: You don't need anything other than the prerequisites listed, so he could get Knock-Down as long as he had Improved Trip from some source, say, Wolf Totem Barbarian, that gave him Improved Trip without its prerequisites. edit: swordsage'd

[HalfQuart]

If you don't think Rage is right for your character, you can trade it out with an ACF. You can read through the various options here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908). I thought maybe Whirling Frenzy or Ferocity might be a better fit.

[Harbinger]

If you don't think Rage is right for your character, you can trade it out with an ACF. You can read through the various options here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908). I thought maybe Whirling Frenzy or Ferocity might be a better fit.

I like the look of Whirling Frenzy. It seems right, a more controlled rage.

I've heard it's better, anyway.

[Coidzor]

I like the look of Whirling Frenzy. It seems right, a more controlled rage.

I've heard it's better, anyway.

The extra attack is rather popular, aye.