Tristalt, the insanity.

[Aegis013]

My table is going to be doing a Tristalt game in the near future.

Since the game will be done as a round-robin DM, anything is subject to majority approval if it's not clear cut RAW, or is Homebrew, or may not be totally within the spirit of the game. However, generally favorable rules interpretations will be allowed, and some cheese will be allowed (I'll list a few specific ones below).

The big rules/spirit of the game is that we'll be tristalting three different Tier 4 or lower classes with fractional saves/BAB. We're given 5 free LA, 32 pt buy, and the ability to exchange 1 LA for +12 pt buy. We're allowed to PrC down all of the columns simultaneously, however, the idea is to use PrCs that are interesting but weak enough that in a normal game, we'd discard the idea out of hand, but interesting enough we'd like to play them. (To be fair, my group is reasonably high op, I don't think I've ever seen any of us use a PrC that ranks +0 or lower on this list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0l)).

Cheese that is allowed includes things such as Martial Monk variant from Dragon Magazine, the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (but only on permanent sources of additional feats), Item Familiar, Leadership, Dragonwrought Kobolds counting as True Dragons, only PrCs from Complete Warrior's benefits are lost if you stop qualifying for them. Largely it depends on intended use.
Due to the agreed upon setting, patron deity requirements and alignment requirements are being completely ignored.

My teammates:
I can't tell you too much about my group's characters, as most of them are largely incomplete. Here's what I know of them:

Guy 1, our resident powergamer (we don't mind this approach) is currently some combination of things including Battle Dancer, Akodo Champion, Black Guard, Soldier of Light, Iaijutsu Master, Ruby Knight Vindicator, and a handful of other things with one column of the tristalt being +20 LA of Evolved Undead (taken 1 LA/level). This character is going to be toned down, but that is his current build.

Guy 2 is presently doing a Scout-Ranger Swift Hunter/Warmage-Sandshaper/Various Dips-Beast Lord looking to dual wield guns from the DMG and have a horde of animals at his command. He's using Martial Monk to pick up Perfect Two Weapon Fighting and using his 5 free LA to buy +60 pt buy (so his starting stat array will be some version of 18/18/18/18/18/16)

Guy 3 is the least complete in his build, knowing only that it will definitely contain Shadowcaster (because he's our resident in-game shenanigans man and Black Labyrinth fits all too well).

My current build is as follows:
Human, base stats: 13/8/12/17/12/14, with templates: (lvl 1) 17/6/14/15/16/18, with templates (lvl 6): 18/6/16/15/18/22
Column 1: Paladin 15 (Harmonious sub level at level 1, Wary Swordknight sub level at 3, Mystic Fire Knight sub levels from 4-6)/Fist of Raziel 5

Column 2: Spellthief 20

Column 3: Dragonfire Adept 1/Martial Monk 1/Warlock 1/Ranger 2/Invisible Fist Martial Monk +1/Suel Arcanamach 10/Spellsword 1/Emissary of Barachiel
3

5 free LA: Feral (1), Phrenic (2), Saint (2)

Feats: taking three exalted feats in order to get into Saint and then retraining two of them out. Taking and retraining Servant of Heavens to get into Fist of Raziel/Emissary of Barachiel.

1. From Smite to Song, H. Dragonfire Inspiration, F1. Draconic Heritage(pyroclastic dragon), F2. Power Attack, DfA. Dragontouched
2. MM. Shocktrooper
3. Words of Creation
5. Rngr. Two Weapon Fighting
6. Craven, MM. Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
9. Sword of the Arcane Order
12. Versatile Spellcaster
15. Arcane Strike
18. Battle Blessing

Getting Otyugh Hole twice and purchasing the casts of DCFS to exchange a feat for Combat Casting to qualify for Suel Arcanamach.

I'm not perfectly satisfied with my own build, specifically Suel Arcanamach only adds the ability to dish out a handful more greater dispel magics (since I get Spellshatter from Mystic Fire Knight) a handful of illusion spells Spellthief can't get and fuel for Arcane Strike. Spellsword isn't advancing anything and Emissary of Barachiel's ability is just a little too ridiculous to me. The Phrenic template is also being used mostly to ensure I can hit that 15 Int requirement for Words of Creation, and while it's a strong template, it's not quite what I want for this character.

So if you'd like to offer suggestions (really for any of these concepts) they'd be very welcome. Or feel free to offer up the build you'd like to play if you were in this tristalt game!

[GeekGirl]

Just a note, Craven requirements say you can't be immune to fear, as a paladin you are.

[animewatcha]

It is also supernatural, so in a 'no magic thru xxx' environment, then he wouldn't be immune to fear atleast through paladin anyway.

[Aegis013]

Just a note, Craven requirements say you can't be immune to fear, as a paladin you are.

Yeah, I got around that by trading my Aura of Courage for the much less interesting +1 size category for things like tripping and grappling ability via the Wary Swordknight sub level at 3rd level. I feel it's worthwhile to get Craven on a character with sneak attack.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Note that prerequisites are static, you have to retain them in order to keep whatever they qualified you for. If you retrain out all of your exalted feats, you'll lose any prestige classes that required them, as well as the Saint template.

You cannot remain an Exalted character with a Blackguard in the party, you cannot associate with evil, same with the Paladin code of conduct.

The special attacks/qualities granted by the Feral template are based on racial HD only, not class levels.

In a game like this, I would make a Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), probably add Phrenic and Lolth-Touched and Unseelie Fey (Winter), and add his Cha bonus to all the things over and over (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). For example, Gloura adds Cha to AC and saves. Cobra-Strike Chaos Monk 2 with Ascetic Mage adds Cha to AC and helps qualify for Arcane Duelist. Arcane Duelist 2 adds Cha to AC (take three levels and Dextrous Attack with two-handed Power Attack). Paladin of Slaughter 2 adds Cha to saves. Blackguard 3 adds Cha to saves, allows you to get Divine Might to add Cha to damage, and helps qualify for Mystic Wanderer. Mystic Wanderer 1 adds Cha to AC. Hexblade 2 adds Cha to saves vs spells (take three levels for Mettle). That's Cha bonus to AC four times and to saves three times, four vs spells. Best of all, counting the Gloura racial HD this only occupies 20 class levels of your build! I'd throw in at least nine Fighter levels with the Zhentarim Soldier sub levels and Imperious Command, probably include Dungeoncrasher and definitely free bonuses (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) as well. If you can manage to dip a prestige class or make an evil adaptation of Harmonious Knight for Paladin of Slaughter, you can even take Sublime Chord.

Another option for a good-aligned character would be a Tauric Human + Lammasu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lammasu.htm), you would have eight racial HD and only a +3 LA (base humanoid plus Tauric). You could technically count as having Mounted Combat and always being mounted due to your shape, per Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) and Zelekhut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut). This would be a perfect candidate for Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin), assuming you can get past the associating-with-evil problem.

[Aegis013]

Thank you for the suggestions, Biffoniacus_Furiou.

I can change it so that instead of retraining, I just tack additional feats onto the build via DCFS. It gets a bit costly, but it's doable.

Our game ignores alignment requirements and the like (Paladin's Code of Conduct is included in this). So I won't lose my exalted feats or Saint template merely because a Blackguard is in the group, and the Blackguard may not necessarily be evil.

[Story]

If you're looking for weak Prcs that great dispelling, Witchborn Binder comes to mind.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Warlock can get Voracious Dispelling and Devour Magic and use them at will. It also gives you some nice all-day buffs like flight, See Invisibility, etc., plus Invisibility and Black Tentacles at will. Get Duskblade 3+ and you should be able to deliver Devour Magic via Arcane Channeling!

I'd go something like Warlock 20// Duskblade 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Dragon Disciple 5// Paladin 6/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/ something 1. Everything Enlightened Spirit gives you stacks with what Warlock gives you (the EB bonus is straight bonus damage, not class feature progression which would include caster level), and you can even get your first Greater invocation a level sooner in place of your third Lesser invocation due to ES's greater shape invocation. Dragon Disciple gives you more Suel Arcanamach spell slots, plus it gives some nice benefits. With Swiftblade 9 you can use Eldritch Glaive and full attack, and still have a standard action to use Arcane Channeling with Devour Magic.

[dspeyer]

What are the rules on racial hit dice? This could be a good game for a true dragon. I've usually heard them called tier 4 at best.

[gorfnab]

For guy 3 - Shadowcaster 20 // Feat Rogue 16 / Swashbuckler 4 (not in that order, obviously) Daring Outlaw // Cobra Strike (or Martial) Invisible Fist Monk 2/ Thug Sneak Attack Zhentarim Soldier Fighter 3/ Assassin 9/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6 (Assassin and Shadowlord levels mixed as needed to get earlier use of pouncing)
LA = Dark, Shadow, Shadow Walker Whisper Gnome +12 PB
Feats of Note: Darkstalker, Craven, Magic in the Blood, Silencing Strike

[gomipile]

A Warlock can get Voracious Dispelling and Devour Magic and use them at will. It also gives you some nice all-day buffs like flight, See Invisibility, etc., plus Invisibility and Black Tentacles at will. Get Duskblade 3+ and you should be able to deliver Devour Magic via Arcane Channeling!

I'd go something like Warlock 20// Duskblade 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Dragon Disciple 5// Paladin 6/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/ something 1. Everything Enlightened Spirit gives you stacks with what Warlock gives you (the EB bonus is straight bonus damage, not class feature progression which would include caster level), and you can even get your first Greater invocation a level sooner in place of your third Lesser invocation due to ES's greater shape invocation. Dragon Disciple gives you more Suel Arcanamach spell slots, plus it gives some nice benefits. With Swiftblade 9 you can use Eldritch Glaive and full attack, and still have a standard action to use Arcane Channeling with Devour Magic.

Duskblade is Tier 3, and thus wouldn't be allowed at all under the rules in the original post of this thread.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Duskblade is Tier 3, and thus wouldn't be allowed at all under the rules in the original post of this thread.

I honestly didn't see that coming, probably due to all the ways to add more spells to their list. See if you can use it without its spellcasting progression.

[Aegis013]

What are the rules on racial hit dice? This could be a good game for a true dragon. I've usually heard them called tier 4 at best.

Racial HD would occupy one level per HD of a single column of the tristalt, so yes, this would be one of the best opportunities to be a True Dragon.


For guy 3 - Shadowcaster 20 // Feat Rogue 16 / Swashbuckler 4 (not in that order, obviously) Daring Outlaw // Cobra Strike (or Martial) Invisible Fist Monk 2/ Thug Sneak Attack Zhentarim Soldier Fighter 3/ Assassin 9/ Telflammar Shadowlord 6 (Assassin and Shadowlord levels mixed as needed to get earlier use of pouncing)
LA = Dark, Shadow, Shadow Walker Whisper Gnome +12 PB
Feats of Note: Darkstalker, Craven, Magic in the Blood, Silencing Strike

Thank you for the suggestion. I already know that the player in question is interested in Telflammar Shadowlord and generally having a Shadow themed character, and this seems like it would fit the bill (while staying reasonably close in power level to my and the Ranger/Warmage/stuff guy).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Racial HD would occupy one level per HD of a single column of the tristalt, so yes, this would be one of the best opportunities to be a True Dragon.

Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a), Dragons of Faerun puts its LA at Wyrmling +2, Very Young +3, Young +4, Juvenile +4. Keep in mind that its spellcasting is a virtue of its race and not a feature of any specific racial HD, so prestige classes that advance spellcasting taken along side of racial HD will still advance spellcasting.

Young Steel Dragon, Dragon 10/ Arcane Duelist 10// Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Paladin 3/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Swiftblade 10// Anything 10/ Incantatrix 1/ Anything 2/ Incantatrix 1/ Anything 2/ Incantatrix 1/ Anything 2/ Incantatrix 1. That gets +20 BAB, 20th level Sorcerer spellcasting, can learn Cleric spells as Sorcerer spells, and with this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) you can get around the limited number of spells known.

[Aegis013]

Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a), Dragons of Faerun puts its LA at Wyrmling +2, Very Young +3, Young +4, Juvenile +4. Keep in mind that its spellcasting is a virtue of its race and not a feature of any specific racial HD, so prestige classes that advance spellcasting taken along side of racial HD will still advance spellcasting.

Young Steel Dragon, Dragon 10/ Arcane Duelist 10// Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Paladin 3/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Swiftblade 10// Anything 10/ Incantatrix 1/ Anything 2/ Incantatrix 1/ Anything 2/ Incantatrix 1/ Anything 2/ Incantatrix 1. That gets +20 BAB, 20th level Sorcerer spellcasting, can learn Cleric spells as Sorcerer spells, and with this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) you can get around the limited number of spells known.

That's pretty neat, but I'm not seeing the rules that say that being a Steel Dragon would give me Sorcerer Casting. The page you linked doesn't seem to have the Steel Dragon as having Sorcerer casting, just a handful of SLAs, and it doesn't appear to be a trait of the Dragon type.

Edit: I found it. Using Sorcerer casting even from Dragon hit dice seems to be a bit out of the spirit of the game though. Though being a True Dragon does interest me.

[The Insanity]

Occult Slayer 5/Witch Slayer 5 will give you some neat defenses and offenses against spellcasters. In a tristalt they might be worth using up 10 levels.

[danzibr]

I'm just popping in to say 12 pb per +1 LA is really underpriced, at least for good use of templates and race.

If you want high Str and Con, compare human with 44 pb versus Lolth-Touched human with 32 pb. Similar arguments can be made for wanting other stats (though not necessarily as extreme).

[dspeyer]

If you're using steel dragon loredrake to get full sorcerer casting, you've escaped tier 4.

Running straight silver dragon hit dice up one side (get a house rule that the la stays at 5) for good chassis, nice ability scores and a handful of very nifty abilities seems quite viable, though. Not sure what the other sides should be. Warlock and feated rogue perhaps?

[Coidzor]

Why are you taking 20 levels of Spellthief?

[Aegis013]

Why are you taking 20 levels of Spellthief?

I like the idea of Spellthief, and there aren't too many arcane options to pair with it using Master Spellthief feat, especially since I'd like my character not to step on the guy using Warmage's toes. I guess Hexblade, maybe.

Also I'm interested in this character having Sneak Attack + Craven, it's something I haven't gotten to use before on a character.

[WhamBamSam]

If you're using steel dragon loredrake to get full sorcerer casting, you've escaped tier 4.

Running straight silver dragon hit dice up one side (get a house rule that the la stays at 5) for good chassis, nice ability scores and a handful of very nifty abilities seems quite viable, though. Not sure what the other sides should be. Warlock and feated rogue perhaps?I'm a big fan of the Mercury Wyrmling when it comes to True Dragons. Throw on the Shadow Creature template for a 300ft perfect fly speed and abuse the hell out of it. Since you don't have to worry about alignment issues and Dragon Magazine content is allowed, how does this sound?

Wandering Shadow Creature Mercury Wyrmling of War 3/Martial Monk 2/Whirl-Pounce Barbarian 1/Hit and Run Fighter 2/Fangshields Ranger 2/Disciple of the Eye 5/Other Monkish PrC 5//Paladin 20//Rogue 20

You have feats out the wazoo, so among other things snag Weapon Finesse, Serenity, Improved Multiattack, Shadow Blade, Razing Strike, Snap Kick, and Travel Devotion.

Fly out from a hiding place 600+ ft away making a bunch of attacks (Unarmed Strikes + Flurry + Snap Kick + Whirling Frenzy + Bite/Claw/Claw) with a solid attack bonus full, sneak attack (effective against undead if you sacrifice a Paladin spell), and Dex to damage (Dex x2 on the unarmed attacks), then fly 300+ ft in any direction with Travel Devotion.

You only burnt 4 LA on that, so you have 44 point buy. Focus on Dex (+10 racial after Mercury Wyrmling and Wandering), Con (-2 racial after Mercury Wyrmling and Wandering), and Wis. Cha isn't really important thanks to Serenity (though if you squeeze in Divine Might you could get use out of it), and neither is Int thanks to Rogue skill points (though sneaking in Knowledge Devotion could get use out of it). Str is nice to have, but doesn't need a huge bonus.

Keep a few Marks of Justice from your Paladin casting on yourself set to go off with the age curse from BoVD with predetermined free actions, so if you ever find yourself in a sticky situation you shout "By Crom" or something and get magically bigger and meaner at the expense of full exp for the encounter.

[Aegis013]

Wandering Shadow Creature Mercury Wyrmling of War 3/Martial Monk 2/Whirl-Pounce Barbarian 1/Hit and Run Fighter 2/Fangshields Ranger 2/Disciple of the Eye 5/Other Monkish PrC 5//Paladin 20//Rogue 20

You have feats out the wazoo, so among other things snag Weapon Finesse, Serenity, Improved Multiattack, Shadow Blade, Razing Strike, Snap Kick, and Travel Devotion.

I do like this, it might be hard to keep all the stuff to do Dragonfire Inspiration with this build though. I'll see what I can do. One of the other issues with the True Dragons is that the builds need to be viable from level 1, so I'll have to see if Racial HD progressions would be ok'd by the others.

[WhamBamSam]

I do like this, it might be hard to keep all the stuff to do Dragonfire Inspiration with this build though. I'll see what I can do. One of the other issues with the True Dragons is that the builds need to be viable from level 1, so I'll have to see if Racial HD progressions would be ok'd by the others.I thought you were limited to T4 and below. DFI Bard is T3.

[Aegis013]

I thought you were limited to T4 and below. DFI Bard is T3.

Harmonious Knight Paladin 1 gives you perform, and from Smite to Song lets you use Smites for Inspire Courage. I got the idea from the A-game Paladin build, which I think is from here. (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376)

[gorfnab]

Thank you for the suggestion. I already know that the player in question is interested in Telflammar Shadowlord and generally having a Shadow themed character, and this seems like it would fit the bill (while staying reasonably close in power level to my and the Ranger/Warmage/stuff guy).
Have him look at this:

Dark Creature, Shadow Creature, Shadow Walker Whisper Gnome (+12 point buy)
Assuming Shadowcaster 20 as the third side of the tristalt

1. Feat Rogue // Swashbuckler - Darkstalker, Magic in the Blood, Dodge, Blindfight (2x Flaws)
2. Thug Sneak Attack Zhentarim Soldier Fighter // Invisible Fist Martial Monk - Mobility
3. Thug Sneak Zhent Fighter // Invisible Fist Martial Monk - Craven, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
4. Thug Sneak Zhent Fighter // Swashbuckler
5. Feat Rogue // Swashbuckler
6. Assassin // Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian - Silencing Strike
7. Assassin // Feat Penetrating Strike Rogue - Spring Attack
8. Telflammar Shadowlord // Feat Rogue
9. Telflammar Shadowlord // Feat Rogue - Daring Outlaw, Shadow Striker
10. Telflammar Shadowlord // Feat Rogue
11. Telflammar Shadowlord // Feat Rogue - Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt
12. Telflammar Shadowlord // Feat Rogue - Staggering Strike
13. Telflammar Shadowlord // Feat Rogue - Martial Stance: Assassins Stance
14. Assassin // Feat Rogue
15. Assassin // Feat Rogue - Shadow Blade, Gloom Razor
16. Assassin // Feat Rogue
17. Assassin // Feat Rogue - Combat Reflexes
18. Assassin // Feat Rogue - Maiming Strike, Savvy Rogue, or Elusive Target
19. Assassin // Feat Rogue - Martial Study: Shadow Stride or Opportunistic Tactician
20. Assassin // Feat Rogue

Rogue Special Abilities
14. Crippling Strike
17. Slippery Mind
20. Opportunist

Shadowcaster bonus feats
2. Still Mystery
8. Extend, Quicken, or Reach Mystery
14. Extend, Quicken, or Reach Mystery

Shadowcaster Paths
Ebon Whispers and Touch of Twilight
Black Magic, Unbinding Shade, or Dark Relfections (Ebon Roads is redundant unless you need even more uses of Dim Door and Shadow Walk)
Shadowscape and either Dark Metamorphosis or Shadow Calling

[BWR]

There is no such thing as 'tristalt'. It's 'gestalt' all the way, no matter how many classes you have, so long as they are greater than zero.

[gomipile]

There is no such thing as 'tristalt'. It's 'gestalt' all the way, no matter how many classes you have, so long as they are greater than zero.

Did you know what the OP meant by "tristalt?" If so, the word fulfilled its purpose in conveying meaning. If, on the other hand, you honestly did not know what "tristalt" meant, then you wouldn't be able to have posted your question.

On the gripping hand, I have seen the term "tristalt" used on these forums before to refer to a three class gestalt, so it is already established as shorthand for such.

[BWR]

"I are unhappy"
Did you understand that?
Successful communication does not make it correct use of language. It is necessary for correct use of language, and is inarguably the most important aspect, but it is not sufficient.

I know people use the term. That doesn't make it right. Like how people use 'momentarily' for 'in a moment' rather than 'for a moment'.
Once it's in the OED I'll give up arguing the issue.