What is Essentia good for?

[Nettlekid]

I just can't figure it out. At 20th level, a character is able to invest 4 points of Essentia into anything that's capable of holding Essentia, like their Soulmelds or specific feats. Each point usually gives a +1 or +2 (usually +1) bonus to something or other. At level 20, you're not going to care about +4 to anything, right? It's just too small to make a difference. Yeah, you can boost it a little with feats like Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and Improve Essentia Capacity, but it still feels like too little bang for the buck.

If you had a nearly unlimited supply of Essentia, like through the Necrocarnate's harvesting or I guess sort of for the Incarnate's capstone, what would you do with it? What's it good for?

[Fax Celestis]

It...does a lot more than that. Especially into the soulmelds that aren't just "+1 to this skill", which basically means all of them once you bind them to something.

[Nettlekid]

Can you point out some particular ones? Because I just don't see any that look strong. Things that, if you invest X Essentia, provide DR X, or grant fly speed X0, or deal Xd6 damage, or grant 25*X% Fortification, stuff like that. It's all basically nothing, especially when X is 4 or less.

[awa]

also both primary meld shaping classes get ways to boost their capacity. and

even without binding the soul meld most good melds give you more then just a +1 bonus per essentia just from being shaped.
edit
you may also be forgetting that non casting classes exist a fighter would love to be able to fly at any speed with just his class features.
edit 2
you list 100% fortification as one of the features and don't see how that could be useful against say a guy with sneak attack?

[TuggyNE]

What's it good for?

Good for? All manner of things! It's essential!

…

I'll show myself out.

[Nettlekid]

Guys, I'd like specific examples. Actually point out things where it's worth it. Feats too, like the ones where you invest Essentia to do stuff. I know of the trick where you use Psycarnum Infusion and Azure Talent to manifest powers for free, but that doesn't really use Essentia. In fact, a big part of it is NOT investing your Essentia.

And I say that 100% Fortification and Flight aren't worth it because you can buy quite cheap items that do the same or better, and we're talking at least 18th level or so when you get Essentia Capacity 4. What can Essentia do that either supplements another key part of a build to great effect, or does something that nothing else can adequately imitate?

[Karnith]

So, have you read Incarnate by the Numbers (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916) before? The numerical bonuses that you can get from soulmelds are a good deal higher than you seem to believe, and there are additionally a number of powerful abilities that you can get that aren't just numerical bonuses (such as teleportation, flight, miss chances, etc.).

[Red Fel]

The point of essentia investing - apart from essentia feats - is not power. It's versatility. It's being able to have a variety of tools on-hand, any of which can be boosted in power, and being able to prepare them for any situation.

Want to fly? Soulmeld for that. Natural weapons? Tons of soulmelds. Protection from various mind-affecting things? Got that too. Essentia allows the player to increase the effectiveness of these various boosts.

Yes, at level 20, those numbers don't seem like much. But at level 20, everything is broken. You have Wishes, Gates, and Miracles flying around left and right. Anyone who doesn't have 9th-level casting is basically dwarfed.

So let's not use level 20 as the placemarker.

What if we used level 5? That's a reasonable number. What if you had a level 5 Incarnate who shaped Lightning Gauntlets and bound them to the Hands chakra? She can only invest 1 essentia in them, but she does so. With them bound to her hand chakra, that's 1d6 for the base ability, +1d6 for the essentia, on her melee attack. Every round. Contrast that with a Paladin, who can use his damage-boost for his Cha modifier 2/day at level 5. Or the Rogue, who can Sneak Attack for +3d6 at level 5, but only when an enemy is flanked or flat-footed and has a discernible anatomy. By contrast, the Incarnate's +2d6 electricity damage works against every opponent, every round. At level 6, she can invest another point of essentia, and it becomes +3d6.

Is a total of 5d6 unimpressive at level 20? Yes. But at level 20, your main source of damage is that wizard who follows your party everywhere, and his pet summoned monster.

Or what about the Strongheart Vest? Even at higher levels, the ability to stop ability damage is huge. Even with only 4 points invested in it, that's 5 points of ability damage blocked. If bound to a chakra, it can also block ability drain, energy drain, and death effects. That's valuable at any level, but particularly at lower levels.

In short: Essentia is good for a useful, variable source of myriad benefits. At high levels, the entire world goes to pot, so it's hardly fair to compare it at level 20.

[AmberVael]

First off, a mere +4 to some rolls can be very significant- that's effectively a 20% alteration of the odds in your favor. For something like Attack or AC, that can be pretty useful. Plus, if you're a decent meldshaper class or buy the appropriate items or even get the appropriate feats, you can get anywhere from 5 to 8 essentia in a single meld.

Second, there are numerous things you can do with essentia even without binds. Yeah, most of them are passive and perhaps a bit bland, but they're effective.

For example:
Assorted Melds: Energy Resistance, which can really help against certain enemies.
Blink Shirt: Short to long range teleportation. A bit of essentia can give you more range, which broadens the possibilities.
Disenchanter Mask: Detect magic, with essentia giving you longer range. The longer range will make it easier to detect magical auras on enemies and down hallways and such, quite useful.
Fellmist Robe: Concealment. Helps you hide, helps you not get hit, it's just good.
Vitality Belt: 1 extra HP per meldshaper level per essentia. That can be a lot of HP.

With binds, you can use your essentia do stuff like gain a fast fly speed, melt weapons that hit you even once, empower summoned evil essentia zombies, gain blindsight (while simultaneously blinding others), reduce/ignore ability drain, deflect multiple arrows every round, or even deal respectable damage of varying types.

[Harrow]

Incarnum stuff tends to be better at low levels than high levels. It's still not worthless by 20. Natural cap of 4, +2 from class levels, +1 from a feat, and +1 from a magic item, and you get a cap of 8 essentia, twice the number you were working with. Still not fantastic, but a lot better than you seem to think it is. Technically, a prestige class can, for a few rounds a day, raise the limit by their charisma mod, which could hypothetically be much higher, but being godly for one encounter a day is not worth taking levels in a Soulborn prestige class.

But seriously, Incarnum is way better at low levels. Level 1 Azurin Incarnate. Mantle of Flame and Astral Vambraces. Expanded Capacity on Astral Vambraces and any feat. You now have DR/6 magic and anyone that hits you in melee takes 2d6 fire damage. At level 1. That's completely insane.

I'd estimate a turning point around level 10, where you get enough soulmelds that you can keep several of the skill and utility melds shaped and just dump essentia into whatever ones you need. This is helped by Rapid Meldshaping, of which you get a second use at level 11. But until then, Incarnates rule combat at the low levels.

The thing is, DR/magic, retributive fire damage, a handful of d6 on a touch attack, those are all great when you can only have 3 soulmelds up at once. But by the time you have enough soulmelds up you can have one [I]just in case you need a profession (sailor) check that day, those things just aren't worth as much and haven't been scaling nearly well enough to make up for the degradation in value.

[Snowbluff]

Actually, I think Gate is the most common ability/spell in the game. Incarnates get it as Planar Chasuble (Soul). Truenamers and healers get it as well. :smalltongue:

[CyberThread]

To be honest, its good for war, HUH! that is what its good for.

[Piggy Knowles]

As a minor nitpick, usually the skill boosters run as +2x, rather than +x, which makes them a lot less than minor boosts. Also, you can invest as much as 8 essentia if you're a dedicated meldshaper... Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, boosts for being an incarnate or for binding a meld to your totem chakra, Incarnum Focus items, etc.

In general, though? Yeah, they give you boosts that last all day, so that you can bring your skills up to the level of a rogue, your combat up to the level of a fighter, etc. Having unlimited essentia would essentially mean that you could do all of that at once, instead of having to switch between roles by reinvesting essentia as a swift action. You can get pretty decent damage, or excellent defenses, or fabulous skills.

It's not crazy or broken - there's a reason incarnates and totemists really can't go beyond a ceiling of tier 3 - but it's nice.

(That said, many of the best soulmeld abilities are passive abilities independent of essentia invested. The Phase Cloak's shoulders bind, Shedu Crown's crown bind, the nine million immunities an incarnate can pick up - all of those are pretty awesome, even if you don't have a single point of essentia. So in that respect, yeah, essentia doesn't make too much of a difference.)

[Psyren]

Off the top of my head:

- Vitality Belt gives you massive amounts of HP from essentia.
- Winter Mask's breath weapon is +2d6 per essentia invested.
- Manticore Belt gives you an extra spike per essentia, each one gaining bonuses from your AoMF/NoNA among others.
- Shadow Mantle gives you an extra 5ft. radius of darkness only you can see through per essentia.
- Sphinx Claws gives you +1 to Str checks per essentia, which is effectively +2 Str/essentia.
- The mobility ones (Blink Shirt, Airstep Sandals, Pegasus Cloak etc.) tend to give you 10ft./essentia.
- Strongheart Vest has sparked more arguments than any other ability.

The ones with +1 AC (e.g. Incarnate/Totem Avatar) or +1 Enhancement Bonus (e.g. Incarnate Weapon/Sphinx Claws) per essentia are powerful, because those are typically bonuses that scale slowly due to WBL.

The bonuses are indeed on the small side. But they are like a bunch of mini-feats you can swap out and that scale. Worg Pelt beats the tar out of Stealthy for instance.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Non-ridiculous use: Midnight Augmentation. Free augments for psionics is always nice.

Incarnates are indeed better at low levels, or in combination with another class via one of the PrCs in magic of incarnum. The fun thing about essentia is that, due to swift action reallocation and other Incarnate features, 4 essentia can be flight speed, teleportation, DR, miss chance, incorporeality, and an additional +8 to various things, whenever you need it. It's not the single thing that blows you away. It's the fact that you can reallocate them as needed. That's why shape soulmeld is overrated and Incarnates (especially Incarnate/other class/PrC) are underrated.

Also straight incarnates get higher capacity.

[Krazzman]

Specific Example?

Level 3 Group:
Azurin Totemist
Imp Unarmed Strike, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Wormtail Belt), Multiattack.
Essentia: 3
Shapes: 3
Binds: 1
Str: 17.
Totem Bind Sphinx Claws(shaped on arms), Shoulder Shape Pegasi Cloak, Belt Shape wormtail belt.

Wormtail belt gives me 3 to 4 AC.
The Claws enable me to either put it in offense for +7 to hit and 1d8+3+2 dmg but reducing a natural armor bonus to only 3 or +6 to hit and 1d8+4 dmg.

Comparing to the rest of the party:
Highest AC
Highest DMG output possbile.
Always on feather fall
+1 or +2 bonus on str checks

[Waker]

Had I known an Incarnum thread was up, I would have checked in sooner. Others have pointed out most of the important parts of Essentia. One other thing to recall is that many of the melds grant 2-3 skills increased per point of Essentia. So that 4 points you invested into your Truthseeker Goggles nets you +10 in Gather Information, Search and Sense Motive. +10 in three different skills is nothing to sneeze at, especially if you can shift all 4 points into Mage's Spectacles for +12 in Decipher Script, Spellcraft and Use Mage Device next round or shift it into...
The biggest advantage of Essentia isn't strictly the amount of the bonuses, though they are nice. It's the flexibility of being able to freely convert skills/AC/HP/Saves/Whatever every round to suit your current needs. Equipment might give you a fair boost, but when you need to spend move actions fetching them, standard to activate or whatever else may be needed, you lose action economy.

[awa]

if you don't have to buy that item of 100% fortification or flight or what ever because its a class ability you can buy other things instead.

The fact that you can buy an item that does that does not make the class ability any less useful. not to mention as others have said that you have the choice that 4 essentia represents numerous possible bonuses you can pick and choose every round.

don't compare soul melds to wizards or druids not at level 20. Compare them to barbarians and rogues when you do that the bonuses seem far more impressive. (comparing them to monks is shooting fish in a barrel)

[TuggyNE]

if you don't have to buy that item of 100% fortification or flight or what ever because its a class ability you can buy other things instead.

The fact that you can buy an item that does that does not make the class ability any less useful.

That's not entirely true. A class feature that is basically "you have another 5% WBL for free, but tied up in this potentially-suboptimal class feature" isn't all that amazing, but a class feature that either doesn't restrict you in its uses, gives you a lot more than 5%, or better yet both (*coughWizardspellscough*) is a lot nicer.

[Red Fel]

That's not entirely true. A class feature that is basically "you have another 5% WBL for free, but tied up in this potentially-suboptimal class feature" isn't all that amazing, but a class feature that either doesn't restrict you in its uses, gives you a lot more than 5%, or better yet both (*coughWizardspellscough*) is a lot nicer.

The question, Tuggy, isn't "What does it better?" (The answer to that is basically "Any Tier 1." Always.) The question is "What is essentia good for?"

And the fact of the matter is that, if you take a Meldshaping class, you have immediate use of every soulmeld on that class' list. You can switch them out daily, or more frequently with class features and such. It's like preparing spells, but they are automatically persisted buffs. In the alternative, you can take any soulmeld as a feat with Shape Soulmeld, and immediately gain those benefits.

Yes, a Wizard's spells are potent and variable. But not many people can take a feat to gain use of a 9th-level spell right out of the Gate. (See what I did there?) Soulmelds offer that versatility.

Take it a step further - meldshaping classes are a great option for a dip as well. No matter what class you're playing, there's a soulmeld or two that can let you do it better, and do so without taking up a gear slot.

EDIT: Oh, and that's not even taking into account how this stuff can give Vow of Poverty characters a massive boost. Since they can't use magic items anyway, they may as well have chakra binds everywhere.

[Person_Man]

Essentia capacity is a number between 1 and 8. 1-4 is just the base that comes from hit dice. You can get an additional +2 from class abilities, +1 from a Feat, and +1 from a magic item. So while 1-4 is the limit for people who just dabble in essentia, 1-6 is what Incarnates or Totemists will typically have, with 7 or 8 for their most important soulmelds.

Second, go read through some Incarnate soulmelds. (Totemists are generally far less essentia dependent, though they have a few noteworthy ones like Heart of Fire, which grants a 1d4 * essentia bonus fire damage to ALL natural weapons). They can get pretty much any defense - Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, massive bonus hit points, the ability to Deflect Arrows multiple times per round, miss chance, retributive damage, energy resistance, etc. They can also get large bonuses (+6 to +20) to most Skills. It all scales fairly well, and it's all based on essentia.

[Asrrin]

What's that one feat that allows you to reduce metamagic costs by investing essentia? That's pretty powerful, as there are only a handful of ways to reduce metamagic costs.

[Waker]

What's that one feat that allows you to reduce metamagic costs by investing essentia? That's pretty powerful, as there are only a handful of ways to reduce metamagic costs.

Midnight Metamagic. A rather handy feat to have.

[mikalife1]

here's another example say your a totemist with expanded soulmeld capacity and you want to be sneaky and do more damage you shape kruthik claws bind it to your totem chakra and invest 7 essentia in to it you now have a +18 to hide/move silent and two claws that deal 1d6+str plus 7d4 acid damage. less useful if the enemy is immune/resistant to acid but still pretty good.

[Nettlekid]

Hmm. So I'm hearing that Essentia is best rearranged round-by-round for power in versatility, as opposed to raw power. Assuming you're willing to buy the incarnum focus items to bump up capacity, at level 20 you can have 5 slots for all soulmelds, 6 for any particular soulmeld if you take the feat for it. And yeah, class features can bump it up higher, but I'm not really looking into taking those classes. What I'm more interested in is, say, a one level dip in one of those, and then something that gives you lots of Essentia like Necrocarnate, which you can then use to fill all your soulmelds. What would those benefits look like?

[Fax Celestis]

Two things: one, they'd look basically the same, except they'd all be full capacity all the time. And two, necrocarnate is pretty terrible, all told. It looks really great, but it just doesn't stack up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129982).

[Nettlekid]

Two things: one, they'd look basically the same, except they'd all be full capacity all the time. And two, necrocarnate is pretty terrible, all told. It looks really great, but it just doesn't stack up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129982).

So if you had all those full capacities, it would basically just be a character with +10 or so to most little things all the time? How about the Incarnum Feats; how would those like this setup?

And I can see that Necrocarnate is pretty bad in the long run, but really, a one level dip doesn't pay off for being able to make enough Essentia to fill all your things? If you had like 3 or 4 Soulmelds and maybe 2 or 3 Incarnum feats, then one level of Necrocarnate could give you enough Essentia to fill them up all day in about half an hour of prep time. Is that not worth it?

[Piggy Knowles]

I actually disagree with that thread's assessment (and, to be honest, much of Sinfire Titan's thoughts on incarnum). You don't need to boil an anthill every few hours - because the essentia granted lasts twenty-four hours, what you gain at any given point will last you into the next day. Because you can gain more essentia than you can use, it's pretty easy to keep yourself topped up without resorting to cheese.

I don't really think necrocarnate is a great option on its own since it delays most of your abilities by a level at best, but it happens to serve as the closest thing to a dual advancing incarnum/incarnum PrC. It advances meldshaper level and grants extra soulmelds and chakra binds that can be used by any class, so it's pretty much the only way to properly build a totemist/incarnate. Totemist 2/Incarnate 5/Necrocarnate 13 is a pretty functional "use all the binds" style build.

[Big Fau]

So if you had all those full capacities, it would basically just be a character with +10 or so to most little things all the time? How about the Incarnum Feats; how would those like this setup?

And I can see that Necrocarnate is pretty bad in the long run, but really, a one level dip doesn't pay off for being able to make enough Essentia to fill all your things? If you had like 3 or 4 Soulmelds and maybe 2 or 3 Incarnum feats, then one level of Necrocarnate could give you enough Essentia to fill them up all day in about half an hour of prep time. Is that not worth it?

Not really. You'd be stuck without soulmelds or feats for several hours, and you can't shape soulmelds in between when you wake up to when you harvest the essential (since you wouldn't be able to invest in the feats).

You'd have to kill every creature you intend to drain within 1 hour, so unless you're boiling anthills you'd burn through your standard 4 encounters/day and have done nothing with the Essentia you'd gain from them. And if you're pulling stunts like boiling anthills you might as well go Necrocarnate 20 to get infinite HP (via Heart of Incarnum).

There's also the problem of investment practicality: Look at what you'd have to give up to even try this (no Chakra binds, several feats, a metric ton of GP). With that kind of investment you'd be better off just building the character as straight-Incarnate or Rogue (since all you'd be getting out of the deal is skill bonuses, mostly). Then there's the fluff attachment of Necrocarnate, which may not sit well with some DMs or parties. Especially if you can't boil anthills.


Just to reiterate: Unless you can kill a large quantity of low-CR creatures each and every day without burning through the DM's planned encounters for the session, it really isn't worth trying. Necrocarnate is not worth the effort it takes to get it going.

[Red Fel]

Again, Nettlekid, you're looking at it in terms of a numbers game, and it's not. Yes, essentia allows you to add +X to these skills, or +Y to an ability score or dice roll, but it's not about the numbers.

It's about the variety. It's about the fact that you can get DR, flight, teleportation, and incorporeality; you can get a bite attack, tail attack, four claw attacks and acid spit; it's about the fact that you can get protection from mind-affecting effects, resistance to ability damage and drain, and align your attacks; it's about all the things you can do, little tricks and features that make a single character multiple, different characters from one day to the next.

I mean, the spell Grease isn't exactly on the power level of, say, Implosion, but if you discount it simply because it doesn't have the numbers, you're not thinking creatively.

The thing to remember is this: For a one-level dip into Incarnate or Totemist, you get access to all of their soulmelds. (We won't discuss Soulborn.) True, you don't gain access to the chakra binds, but even without that, you have a wide array of abilities to choose from. Further, since you won't be using chakra binds, you really don't need Incarnum Focus items.

Even if you don't take a meldshaper class, you can take Incarnum feats, like Midnight Metamagic, and invest the essentia you from those feats. (Most Incarnum feats grant you a point of essentia.)

A popular option is to take two levels of Totemist as a dip. Just the two. That gives you +1 BAB, +3 Fort and Reflex save, up to three active soulmelds, two essentia, and a chakra bind - the Totem Chakra. And because the Totem Chakra doesn't correspond to a body slot, you can shape and bind a soulmeld to it without having to invest in an Incarnum Focus item. And because the class offers so much variety, even with that tiny dip, you've opened a lot of really fantastic options for your character.

[TuggyNE]

The question, Tuggy, isn't "What does it better?" (The answer to that is basically "Any Tier 1." Always.) The question is "What is essentia good for?"

And the fact of the matter is that, if you take a Meldshaping class, you have immediate use of every soulmeld on that class' list. You can switch them out daily, or more frequently with class features and such. It's like preparing spells, but they are automatically persisted buffs. In the alternative, you can take any soulmeld as a feat with Shape Soulmeld, and immediately gain those benefits.

Yep, that's pretty much what I meant. Meldshaping is substantially superior to stuff like Monk's Still Mind or Slow Fall because, rather than tying you down to a single situational ability that doesn't cost much and is usually worth even less, you get to pick between them and switch around more or less on the fly. The abilities granted are also often rather more substantial.

Wizards are just an example of that principle run amok, since they have even more versatility and even more power, to the point where mimicking a Wizard's spell output with scrolls or wands or whatever + UMD is going to consume probably all of your WBL, and still be less potent.