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TabletopGamer
2013-10-16, 09:56 PM
Can it be done?
Can it be done without just adding a crap load of powerful spells into a spell list?

Can you make the Bard Tier 1 and balanced with other Tier 1 classes like Druid, Cleric, or Wizard?

Can you make a Tier 1 Bard while still keeping the flavor and feel of the Jack of all Trades with a lute feel?
The Epic Face of the party who tries to sing down that raging orge?

Can it be done?
Please do try and post here.
3.P

Eldariel
2013-10-16, 10:03 PM
Honestly, there's no need for homebrew here. Using the Sublime Chord prestige class from Complete Arcane, bogstandard Bard becomes more or less Tier 1 if you give him some way to switch his spell loadout (e.g. enabling Limited Wish to replicate Psionic Power Psychic Reformation and use it to switch spells works).

Combine that with Virtuoso [Complete Adventurer] for a bunch of songs and keeping the Inspire Courage advancing. There's a slight dip in performance before level 11 since he's behind some spell levels. If you want a Tier 1 Bard out of the box, just combine those three classes, smoothen out the spell progression so it feels natural and call it a day. I'm not going to write it up but it should be relatively elementary; basically, songs + 9th level spells + skills + ability to change spell selection relatively easily = Tier 1 Bard.

TabletopGamer
2013-10-16, 10:28 PM
I was more thinking a bard 1-20
I am sure you can find a lot of PrCs that could be considered to bring a class into Tier 1

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-16, 10:32 PM
1. Keep Bardic Music
2. Extend spell list to 9th level, taking appropriate spells from other lists
3. Convert to a prepared caster.
4. ???
5. Profit.

TabletopGamer
2013-10-16, 10:36 PM
If I just wanted to throw more spells at it I wouldn't have posted this.
Thanks for the post though.

Ziegander
2013-10-16, 11:11 PM
Well, the Bard's a spellcaster. It's only not Tier 1 because it's spells are so limited. The only way to make a class Tier 1 is by giving it some sort of spellcasting like system. Thus, since the Bard already has spells, the easiest, most elegant way to move it to Tier 1, is by giving it more and better spells.

What else would you want or expect to add to it?

But, okay, I can help. Songs. That's how you make a Bard Tier 1. Give it a song for everything. EVERYTHING. Bardic music really could be a Bard's spellcasting mechanic. Throw True Speech in there too, because there's no reason not to. It would take a LONG time to design and require a ground-up overhaul of the performance mechanics, but it could work. Check out Monte Cook's spellsong Bard variant in his 3.0 Book of Eldritch Might II. It's not very good or powerful, but the mechanics behind the system are quite interesting.

TabletopGamer
2013-10-16, 11:23 PM
I don't mind adding more spells but I meant doing nothing but tossing spells at it doesn't seem very interesting.

Heck I I thought of this.
Expand the progression to lvl 9 spells sure. Take the system for Bard spells and extend it to lvl 9. So at 20th all levels have 5 per day.

To make it interesting and because bards do scribe down spells and stuff on the fly maybe give them a Bardic Tome, a book to scribe down spells into.

Now that they can learn any Arcane spell they want through their progression give them something to work with that. Do we really need more prepared casters? Does that fit with a bard? Not really

So lets find a half way point.
Maybe instead of preparing exactly 5 spells for each slot you prepare 10 or up to 10 spells per level and then can spontaneously cast from those pools of spells.

So level 1 would have 10 spells floating about in it, if you needed to cast a specific low level bard spell then if its in your Pool you can spontaneously.
Is this more book keeping, yep sure is, but its unique and at least keeps the bards 'Oh wait I have a spell for that' imagine of on the spot casting while forcing some prepared casting aspects on them.

Morph Bark
2013-10-17, 02:50 AM
I don't mind adding more spells but I meant doing nothing but tossing spells at it doesn't seem very interesting.

Heck I I thought of this.
Expand the progression to lvl 9 spells sure. Take the system for Bard spells and extend it to lvl 9. So at 20th all levels have 5 per day.

To make it interesting and because bards do scribe down spells and stuff on the fly maybe give them a Bardic Tome, a book to scribe down spells into.

Now that they can learn any Arcane spell they want through their progression give them something to work with that. Do we really need more prepared casters? Does that fit with a bard? Not really

So lets find a half way point.
Maybe instead of preparing exactly 5 spells for each slot you prepare 10 or up to 10 spells per level and then can spontaneously cast from those pools of spells.

So level 1 would have 10 spells floating about in it, if you needed to cast a specific low level bard spell then if its in your Pool you can spontaneously.
Is this more book keeping, yep sure is, but its unique and at least keeps the bards 'Oh wait I have a spell for that' imagine of on the spot casting while forcing some prepared casting aspects on them.

One mechanic I've used once was that a caster could cast spontaneously, but his spells known were effectively all the spells he had scribed into a spellbook he owned. He could only attune himself to one spellbook at a time and switching required one hour of meditation.

Eldariel
2013-10-17, 06:06 AM
I was more thinking a bard 1-20
I am sure you can find a lot of PrCs that could be considered to bring a class into Tier 1


Honestly, there's no need for homebrew here. Using the Sublime Chord prestige class from Complete Arcane, bogstandard Bard becomes more or less Tier 1 if you give him some way to switch his spell loadout (e.g. enabling Limited Wish to replicate Psionic Power Psychic Reformation and use it to switch spells works).

Combine that with Virtuoso [Complete Adventurer] for a bunch of songs and keeping the Inspire Courage advancing. There's a slight dip in performance before level 11 since he's behind some spell levels. If you want a Tier 1 Bard out of the box, just combine those three classes, smoothen out the spell progression so it feels natural and call it a day. I'm not going to write it up but it should be relatively elementary; basically, songs + 9th level spells + skills + ability to change spell selection relatively easily = Tier 1 Bard.

I am aware, yes. If you want Tier 1 Bard, just write a base class using the class features of those classes plus the core Bard & make the spell progression smoother. They have a bunch of songs (though many of the Virtuoso Songs are kinda boring and can be omitted; Sublime Chord has pretty cool ones so keep those and some of the cooler Virtuoso ones and the default Bard ones), a very distinct Bard-like feel and the power to be Tier 1.

Basically, most of the work is already done by WotC. All you need to do is write a 20-level Bard class that has the class features of those classes instead, and you've got your Tier 2 Bard which can easily be made Tier 1 by giving him spell versatility.

Diovid
2013-10-17, 09:13 AM
Give the bard the following:

D12 hit points.
Full BaB.
A good fortitude save.
All skills as class skills.
8+int skill points per level.
Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, all armor and all shields.
Knows all spells of the level he can cast.
Able to cast spells in full armor and while wielding shields without penalty.
All Bard variant abilities without having to trade anything for it.


But maybe that's still a tier 3 class.

Realms of Chaos
2013-10-17, 09:35 AM
I don't mind adding more spells but I meant doing nothing but tossing spells at it doesn't seem very interesting

Giving it spells (or the rough equivalent) may not be interesting but that is literally the one avenue for getting tier 1 as tier one means fitting well over 100 class features into 20 levels.

To be clear, it doesn't have to be the only thing you do. In fact, you can do whatever else you want with the class without giving it more spellcasting and fail to affect its tier in the slightest. You could give the bard that ability to vaporize entire planets as standard actions at level 1 and you wouldn't boost its tier at all.

With that said, tier 3 =/= balanced. In fact, if you want the bard to reach tier 1, giving it anything above the spellcasting (or substitute system) that you'll need to give it that really matters (above bonus feats) would probably be somewhat unbalancing.

I am willing to support that last statement. Considering that beguilers and dread nevcromancers aren't tier 1 despite access to level 9 spells and that the sorcerer isn't tier 1 despite access to the sor/wiz list, your bard will need unlimited access to a series of abilities at least as broad as the cleric list or wizard list. Your level 20 bard will need to be able to accomplish ANYTHING if they can wait long enough to regain spells.

Given your ability to do literally anything, 99% of class features you could add to the class would serve a merely decorative function, perhaps acting in a similar manner to reserve feats and letting you save your spells when dealing with particularly bard-ish task. If your class features really do something that magic cannot (even adding 20 levels of class features together), you are probably a bit unbalanced.

So, to reiterate: yes, giving spells or a spell system to the bard is boring. It is also the only way to reach tier 1. Further, given that your bard will need total access to spells, any "interesting" stuff you put on the class will likely either be mostly irrelevant or unbalanced.

This is why tier 3 is the golden standard so many of us use.

Yitzi
2013-10-17, 09:50 AM
Honestly, the bard has serious potential in this regard. I'd say the only differences needed are:
1. Allow him to switch his spells known list.
2. Give him spells that enhance his skills or give them new and powerful uses. (Not powerful spells per se, but ones that synergize with his spells to enhance his versatility.) Probably a spell to let him switch his skillpoints around as well.
3. Boost bardic music to include more combat-encounter-ending abilities (maybe fascinate in the middle of a battle, as long as the fascinated creature is not directly attacked?)
4. Give him a few important utility spells he's missing, such as teleport.

And remember: One of the best approaches to challenging the "batman wizard" is a bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158). So it definitely should be doable to make him tier 1.

TabletopGamer
2013-10-17, 11:26 AM
Again I do not object to the comment of having a 9th level spell list. In fact I agree its needed but the issue I had was to JUST throw spells at it.
You might as well throw on a robe and a point hat and call yourself gandalf already.

I wanted more something to do with his songs and his skill abilities.

Would love to see a mechanic that worked with his music and knowledge abilities that are trademarks of the bard be raised up to a level that people would see them shine. Honestly a Warlock approach wouldn't be bad either, treat his songs as Invocations and can cast them as at will 24 hour buffs or something akin to that. Maybe not that powerful to start of course but you know what I mean.

I made this seeing the Tier 1 challenges and the interesting things they did with Fighters, Rogues, and Rangers. I want to see what people can do for the Bard.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-10-17, 11:39 AM
The big issue is that to be T1, you need a set of abilities as powerful and as varied as a wizard's spells. That's a huge amount of work. Look at how much I wrote for the Myth, and you can still make a good case for it being T2.

So yes, while you could make the class T1 based on music alone... it would require writing dozens, maybe even hundreds of magical songs.

TabletopGamer
2013-10-17, 11:57 AM
Well I do enjoy your Myth it is fun and my Fighter-Type player would love to try it out so I might use that class soon enough to give it some fun run through.

I agree but I was not meaning to make it Solely built on the back of Music. but maybe if we extended the spells to lvl 9, casting 5 spells per day as a normal bard. Add songs as invocations to further the fluff and grant specialized buffs and debuffs without using up spell slots or use a spell slot but have extended longevity.

Maybe pick at the Factotum's skills focused abilities like Brains over Brawn or something adding to the Bard's skills.
Make it Cha based of course. Force of Personality from the godlings Scion list (Super Genius Games) gives Cha Mod bonus to all saves making them extremely useful. But Maybe add Cha to Wis and Int checks because he is using his charm and charisma to make people believe he is right.

Eldariel
2013-10-17, 01:26 PM
I wanted more something to do with his songs and his skill abilities.

Well, see, that's why I keep saying Sublime Chord + Virtuoso. You get Song of Arcane Power, a very different but thematic approach to using Bardic Music. If you do a full rewrite, you should definitely cannibalize Song of Timelessness too given how incredibly cool that ability is. Song of Cosmic Fire is incredibly generic and doesn't do anything interesting, nor does it feel very "Bardy" so feel free to leave that out though.

Then Virtuoso offers a horde of other songs of interest. Sustaining Song could be good; music that slowly heals everybody nearby is a good idea, and useful. Jarring Song is pretty logical and should probably be carried over. Song of Fury could be an option in Inspire Courage. Mindbending Melody could be an extra option in the Suggestion-song on higher levels and Revealing Melody may or may not be of interest to you. I'd probably omit that.


Anyways, that's a bunch of songs that expand a Bard's horizons and do different things. That's why I suggested cannibalizing those classes. Skills, I'm not sure you should do too much with; Bard is already naturally Perform-reliant and pretty good with a variety of them. Giving them even as much as Skill Mastery would be stepping on Rogues' shoes, though if you don't care about that giving them some Masteries later on could work.

Yitzi
2013-10-17, 01:56 PM
The big issue is that to be T1, you need a set of abilities as powerful and as varied as a wizard's spells. That's a huge amount of work.

I'm not so sure..."varied and powerful" might be possible without a class-specific subsystem like spells.

TabletopGamer
2013-10-17, 02:15 PM
I love the bard class I do. But I noticed that in some cases it falls into the issue of "If he is doing his job right, you really don't notice he is there. But if he is doing his job poorly you know immediately that something has gone wrong"

I don't mean to say they are ignored, but their buffs and the like are more or less taken for granted and Really other then Party Face you can easily be shuffled into a corner and just told to play your songs and keep the buffs coming and see if you can tag a baddie if it wanders your way. But a Fighter, rogue or Ranger can do more damage then you, a Cleric, Wizard, or Druid do better magic then you.

Yeah your the guy who can be more flexible for sure and that pays off but you're mundane at all of it meaning if you don't have a party with a wizard you're the arcane talent and guess what you cannot hope to compete with a wizard in that field you might need another fighter in a pinch and yeah you can swing a sword ok, but nothing special and you're not gonna be doing it front line unless you have built specifically for that.

Morph Bark
2013-10-17, 02:27 PM
The thing is, what the Bard lacks to make him really noticeable and at the same time more powerful, is songs that are active, rather than passive: songs that open up options rather than just giving extra numbers. He has a few, but they are few only.

TabletopGamer
2013-10-17, 02:30 PM
I am looking at the Sumblime Chord and the Virtuoso Prcs and yes they do indeed buff the Bard but not much. Granting them 9th level spell progression is great but it doesn't do much with it.

I am totally not good at piecing things together and I don't know how to do the charts so this may take awhile.
But yeah the Bard needs spells like the Warlock has Invoctions, useful spells that can also kick butt at time. Doesn't every bard player wish they could play some bad ass song and just start kicking butt?

PairO'Dice Lost
2013-10-17, 04:01 PM
The bard is a hybrid class; it started off as a fighter/thief/druid hybrid, and in 3e it's a skilled arcane class with some divine spells. So I'd say the bard could use a boost in all three areas (combat, skills, and spells) to make it more than just a beguiler with music or a rogue with spellcasting.

For combat, we can fall back on the songs, since we all know an Inspire Courage-specced Snowflake Wardance bard can be a pretty good combat monster already. Let the bard pick from among all the published songs (skald, dirgesinger, virtuoso, seeker of the song, heartfire fanner, etc.), fold in some common useful metamusics like Lingering Song to the basic music mechanics, and bump up the base numbers so the bard can be a superb buffer out of the box (while removing things like Song of Creation and badges of valor so he can't go from superb to broken).

For skills, Bardic Knack and Bardic Lore are already pretty darn good; a small change, adding bonuses for certain skills on top of the effective ranks for all skills, can make them even better. Normally just throwing numbers at a class won't raise its tier, but giving the bard +Yes to skill checks opens up things like walking through force walls, running on air, swaying armies with his words, and other gamechangers.

For spells, since it's an arcane/divine hybrid already, here's a radical idea: let the bard learn spells from any spell list. Same spells known and per day, but now it can pick from the best spells out there. Unlimited access to all spells can be broken even if limited to 6th level spells, however, so let's group them into colleges, 1e style (though obviously specific names like Fochlucan or Mac Fuirmidh, aren't necessary). Maybe one for each traditional type of bard: trickster, sage, face, sonic blaster, buffer, bladesinger, and nature guy, sort of like specialist wizards but based on bard theme rather than spell theme. A given bard could pick spells from the bard list plus spells from any other list in X colleges of his choice.

So this bard can do a bunch of things in combat (summon critters and buff them with +6 inspire courage, blow people away with lightning and thunder, etc.), in exploration scenes (run up cliffs and over gaps, tell you the exact weather patterns of this particular mountain, etc.), in downtime (craft amazingly, raise armies, etc.), and more. It doesn't have the sheer world-shaking power of most Tier 1s without higher-level spells, but I think the sheer versatility of multiple spell lists plus epic skills plus songs makes up for it, and you can easily scale the power up or down to taste based on the exact music bonuses, the number and breadth of colleges, etc.

Ziegander
2013-10-17, 04:12 PM
It requires very little additional design work, relaying on existing material, and it definitely succeeds in making the Bard more powerful. I like it. I don't know what Tier it will end up playing in, but I would play it. Maybe I'll try to slapdash a design together for it.

TabletopGamer
2013-10-17, 04:20 PM
I would love to see what you think of Z

Ziegander
2013-10-17, 04:52 PM
I would love to see what you think of Z

Working on it. It is certainly going to be quite powerful, going by the looks of things.

TabletopGamer
2013-10-17, 06:06 PM
It looks good so far.

PairO'Dice Lost
2013-10-17, 06:20 PM
Glad you liked the idea, Ziegander...and that you're writing it up so I don't have to. :smallwink:

Just to Browse
2013-10-18, 12:12 AM
The trouble with making a bard tier 1 and give it an answer to everything without having that answer be "wizard spells" is that:

1) It's a lot of work to write hundreds of small options up.
2) If you instead spread the ability to do all those things over a series of smaller options, the class is stronger than other tier 1s.
3) If you don't give it all the options, it sucks.

So bards are re-skinned casters from cleric, druid, or wizard spell lists. I'd call it wizard, have them learn and cast like an erudite, and give them fluffy bardic abilities so they're interesting when they run out of stuff at low levels / don't want to use color spray.

Yitzi
2013-10-18, 10:14 AM
The trouble with making a bard tier 1 and give it an answer to everything without having that answer be "wizard spells" is that:

1) It's a lot of work to write hundreds of small options up.
2) If you instead spread the ability to do all those things over a series of smaller options, the class is stronger than other tier 1s.
3) If you don't give it all the options, it sucks.

You are assuming that a class cannot have varied and powerful abilities without a lot of small options (be it spells or otherwise). I don't see any reason that this must be the case.

JoshuaZ
2013-10-18, 10:31 AM
If you made them a prepared caster able to prepare off of any spell on the bard list, that would go a long way to making them T1.

Just to Browse
2013-10-18, 11:53 AM
You are assuming that a class cannot have varied and powerful abilities without a lot of small options (be it spells or otherwise). I don't see any reason that this must be the case.

That alternative is presented in (2). You can have abilities that solve all the problems that a lot of small options could solve, but in order to have the same flexibility overall those abilities would need to do more individually, and thus would be more flexible at any given time.