[3.5] Bluff using The Giant's Diplomacy Variant

[Maginomicon]

Couldn't the conversational use of the Bluff skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) be significantly repaired from being a "you just believe whatever ridiculous thing I say" skill by converting some of the methodology used for The Giant's Diplomacy Variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) to the Bluff Skill?

The base DC becomes their Sense Motive check plus the believability of the lie plus the target's level.

Then, you also add The Giant's modifiers for the relationship and the risk/reward.

Personally, I feel that when they wrote the Bluff skill description they mistakenly combined the "believability" and "risk" factors into one table when they really should be two tables (and thus they should stack). Thus, The Giant's Diplomacy Variant's risk/reward modifiers can replace the RAI risk table since it's identical except that it also accounts for whether the target would benefit or greatly benefit from the lie (people tend to believe what they want to hear more than a simple -5 DC would imply).

That makes these bluffs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) have a DC of at least Sense Motive +20 or +30 (negating the glibness potion), and higher than that since you add their level to the DC.

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Of course, all of this could be made moot by having Bluff instead be "they believe that you believe that", but just taken on that alone Bluff tends to be a lot more underplayed and often underpowered (not to mention a given anyway if you want to be even remotely realistic).

Weirdly, the bluff skill description doesn't as-is state "if it's outright demonstrably false, the bluff automatically fails". Is there some errata source or something that takes care of that issue?

[weckar]

I never really believed in the 'adding their level' stuff. Mostly because, for NPCs, level can indicate anything from combat prowess to crafting skills to mental healthcare credentials...

[Maginomicon]

I never really believed in the 'adding their level' stuff. Mostly because, for NPCs, level can indicate anything from combat prowess to crafting skills to mental healthcare credentials...
To quote The Giant...

High-level characters are more committed to their views and are less likely to be swayed
It has nothing to do with combat prowess or crafting skill and has everything to do with them being more set in "their ways".

[weckar]

And those ways have absolutely nothing to do with how gullible or paranoid they would be, or how active any secondary mental defenses are.

[Maginomicon]

And those ways have absolutely nothing to do with how gullible or paranoid they would be, or how active any secondary mental defenses are.
That's a curious perspective. :smallconfused: Generally, one would think a more world-weary person (represented by level, not the wisdom bonus or sense motive ranks) would most certainly have "heard it all" and thus be more entrenched to believe what they believe.

[weckar]

If you want to go down that route of reasoning, the blade has to cut two ways. If the bluff were to fake something commonplace in their specific line of work or otherwise, they should be MORE susceptible to it as they level.

[Maginomicon]

If you want to go down that route of reasoning, the blade has to cut two ways. If the bluff were to fake something commonplace in their specific line of work or otherwise, they should be MORE susceptible to it as they level.
That would fall under the believability of the bluff, not whether their degree of world-weariness applies.

(To be clear, a Wisdom bonus indicates innate wisdom that might or might not advance with time depending on your age category and where you advance your ability scores. Sense motive ranks indicate specific effort you've put in to learn how to sense motives. Level however always advances with time because that's the nature of XP.)

[weckar]

Yes, that's quite my point. Your system would only work well for quite outrageous bluffs, but for minor or well-planned ones it would make little sense.

Take a minor example: A castle often receives messengers from a Baron Darunhaut. A different one every time. You claim to be one of these messengers. A newbie guard (low level) might not be completely in the know of the system, and might be more suspicious of someone never seen before claiming entrance on behalf of someone he has never heard of than a seasoned guard (high level) would be.

Sometimes, experience makes us overlook the things we should really be weary of, hence why a fresh pair of eyes on a project is usually a good thing.

[TuggyNE]

Yes, that's quite my point. Your system would only work well for quite outrageous bluffs, but for minor or well-planned ones it would make little sense.

Take a minor example: A castle often receives messengers from a Baron Darunhaut. A different one every time. You claim to be one of these messengers. A newbie guard (low level) might not be completely in the know of the system, and might be more suspicious of someone never seen before claiming entrance on behalf of someone he has never heard of than a seasoned guard (high level) would be.

Sometimes, experience makes us overlook the things we should really be weary of, hence why a fresh pair of eyes on a project is usually a good thing.

That's not usually the case, though; it's only the most recently-posted (last few weeks) that would qualify, and someone can easily remain at a low level for months, years, or even decades. In contrast, high-level characters are relatively rare, and thus are a better fit for both the extreme depth of experience needed to uncover slight holes in a ruse (which is one common means of discovery) and the good sense not to be hustled by the assurances of the bluffer.

[Maginomicon]

Yes, that's quite my point. Your system would only work well for quite outrageous bluffs, but for minor or well-planned ones it would make little sense.

Take a minor example: A castle often receives messengers from a Baron Darunhaut. A different one every time. You claim to be one of these messengers. A newbie guard (low level) might not be completely in the know of the system, and might be more suspicious of someone never seen before claiming entrance on behalf of someone he has never heard of than a seasoned guard (high level) would be.

Sometimes, experience makes us overlook the things we should really be weary of, hence why a fresh pair of eyes on a project is usually a good thing.
That still relies on the believability of the bluff. If they aren't lying, there's no bluff check in the first place, just a needless sense motive check on the part of the guard that turns up no information. The seasoned guard would be more likely to believe it because he's a more seasoned guard. The newbie guard summarily is more likely to question it because he's not a seasoned guard there.

Basically, you're confusing lying with false positives.

[weckar]

I'll gladly pitch you another example: What if the bluff doesn't concern their area of training/expertise AT ALL. A wizard comes into town escorted by a huge hulking high level, but stupid, brute from a foreign nation. You, in the bar, try to convince that brute of something local. Should his level, mainly attained by combat status in a faraway place, really matter?

[Maginomicon]

I'll gladly pitch you another example: What if the bluff doesn't concern their area of training/expertise AT ALL. A wizard comes into town escorted by a huge hulking high level, but stupid, brute from a foreign nation. You, in the bar, try to convince that brute of something local. Should his level, mainly attained by combat status in a faraway place, really matter?
Yes, because even if his wisdom is really low, he's learned from his experiences in the world that in-general, people are not necessarily honest. Thog (from the comic) may be laughably stupid, but that's because he's "played" that way.

Again though, believability comes into the situation. The Bluff has a +0 DC if it's believable. Further, if the Bluff has no risk involved, it's another +0 DC. I'm not seeing your point here.

Believability is an entirely-open-ended purely-GM-fiat-run aspect of Bluff. Giving the GM more tools for adjudicating ancillary issues outside of pure believability is more fair and makes his job easier.

[weckar]

Ugh, believability, as a concept, does not come into play in any of my examples. In the previous example, a level 1 commoner who happens to be a local might see right through the same bluff that could fool a level 15 outsider, logically. Now, sure, that should get its own modifier, but I'm considering EQUAL situations here, as far as the bluff in question is concerned. There is no believability variable.

In fact, can we for the sake of sanity please at least agree that a creature of lv1 with +19 to sense motive is not even playing in the same league as a lv20 creature with no formal training in lie detection whatsoever, when it comes to lies?

[Maginomicon]

Ugh, believability, as a concept, does not come into play in any of my examples. In the previous example, a level 1 commoner who happens to be a local might see right through the same bluff that could fool a level 15 outsider, logically. Now, sure, that should get its own modifier, but I'm considering EQUAL situations here, as far as the bluff in question is concerned. There is no believability variable.Except believability does come into play in all of your examples. The degree of believability might be essentially moot, but it's still there.

In the fake messenger scenario, the seasoned guard has information the newbie guard does not, and the information is so significant that it might outweigh his level (and might even provide a circumstance penalty to his sense motive check). The newbie doesn't have that information, and in-fact his lack of information could reasonably make anything told to him by people of "dubious" repute within the context of his guard duties inherently less believable (and might even give him a circumstance bonus to his sense motive check).

In the brute scenario, the brute lacks information about the area, sure, but if all you're trying to do is convince him of something local to the area (like say... claim the local baker is cheating on his wife), the brute still is able to read body language and determine other factors that come naturally with time and experience for anyone that doesn't require training in how to detect lies or a significant wisdom bonus. And again, if it's believable (such as by you pointing out someone a few tables over at the bar flirting with a barmaid), that's a +0 to the brute's sense motive, and if there's no known risk involved, the brute gets another +0 to his sense motive.

In your commoner vs outsider scenario, an outsider (much like a newbie guard but for other reasons) may be suspicious of anyone (even a level 1 commoner) by pulling from their span of life experiences in-general (expressed in hit dice) even if they weren't life experiences on this plane. This is because deception is universal on any plane (generally-speaking, so don't nit-pick) and thus level translates here just as easily. (They played with this scenario in Ah! My Goddess! IIRC, with all the disbelief you might think happening constantly as a running gag.)



In fact, can we for the sake of sanity please at least agree that a creature of lv1 with +19 to sense motive is not even playing in the same league as a lv20 creature with no formal training in lie detection whatsoever, when it comes to lies?
I'll agree that a +19 to sense motive at level 1 (feasible through paying for a casting of Guidance of the Avatar) isn't in the same league as a level 20 character, but that's a moot point since the issue isn't whether they're equal but whether it should come into play at all.